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what has more psi a wolf or pit bull?

<< Back to: rec.pets.dogs: American Pit Bull Terriers Breed-FAQ, Part 2/3

Answer by pitbull_connor
Submitted on 2/1/2004
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Considering pit bulls were bred specifically for fighting and bear/bull baiting their bite exceeds a wolf bite by far. Wolves do not snap legs in half, they tear flesh from the bone. They also don't jump up and latch onto animals to bring them down. I pit bull latches itself onto a bull or bear as it's being tossed around like a rag doll. Releasing grip as they please. Ever seen a pit bull hang from a spring pole? They've been recorded as hanging for 30 minutes! A wolf has not been bred for jaw power either, they have no need for it. A pit bull has been bred for this feature. Psi is a hard thing to measure in a bite. Depends what, and why the animal is biting and the drive involved. No accurate tests have been performed.

Answer by babayaga
Submitted on 2/27/2004
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The wolf is widely reported to have a bite strength of up to 1,500 pounds per square inch (psi). Wolves can crush deer bones and can rip open the rump of a running moose, cutting through 4 inches of thick hair and tough hide. Dogs usually have a bite strength of around 450 psi. Jaw strength is reduced in the dog by a less acute angle around the zygomatic arch. The zygomatic arch is the "cheek" bone; an arch of bone on the side of the skull. This difference in angle is a typical difference between wolf or coyote and dog skulls. It allows for a larger, and therefore stronger, muscle in wolves and coyotes. However, the American Pit Bull Terrier/ American Staffordshire Terrier is sometimes reported to have equal jaw strength as wolves. What does a bite pressure in psi really mean? According to Bell Labs, humans can bite at about 150 psi, a rat at 7,000 psi. But this doesn�t mean that the rat is stronger than the human and could crush our bones. It merely shows how much pressure is applied relative to the area where the teeth make contact. It should be noted, that people are expecting the bite of a wolf or a Pit Bull to be especially strong and damaging and will therefore present data in this way.

Answer by John
Submitted on 3/21/2004
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It's not even close. Pit Bulls have much stronger jaws then wolves do. That's the way they are built. And a Hyena has stronger jaws than both of them. Wolves don't bite through elk's leg bones, they grab on, tear at, and hurt the animal and the pack swarms over them to take the elk down. Talk PSI all you want, the easiest way to tell who's stronger is in a fight. When wolves and Pits are rolled, Pits break free from the Wolf's hold, but the Wolf cannot break free of the Pit once the Pit gets ahold of them. That's why Pits win almost every fight they have with a wolf, even if the wolf is twice their size. It's simple: Fighting Dog versus Hunting Dog in a fight.......the fighting dog wins. Another thing, the Irish Wolfhound of today is NOT the dog that rid Ireland of wolves. The old Irish Wolfhound was a Coursehound that ran, tired and killed wolves in teams or at least pairs, not one on one. That dog is extinct, today's Wolfhound came from Great Danes and Borzoi's being crossed. They don't hunt Wolves at all now. If you want to see a dog that's actual job is to kill wolves, 1 on 1, and does so every time, look up a Causasian Owcharka on the internet.

Answer by joel
Submitted on 3/25/2004
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Ha ha, it sounds like people like talking about stuff that they know nothing about! Blurb83 gets a star and a half just to blow smoke- he has his information reversed! The pit bull has the stronger bight out of the wild wolf kingdom hands down. Just because your dog has the name wolf in it does not make him part of the wild wolf category. All dogs came from wolves adapting to mans needs and also bred by man to achieve certain results. The pit bull had been breed with a type of bulldog to get its great bite power and also bred with various terriers for its lightning like quickness. I found a great site on pit bulls it is BIGHTCLUB.com it has some good free movies on info for pit bull owners.

Answer by Neal Hall
Submitted on 3/25/2004
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First off, wolves are WILD animals. Its kind of silly any arguing this, but there wouldnt be a match. Wolves kill to survive, and some of the most fiercest animals on earth. Wolves kill each other on border disputes, as well have fights with bears, mountain lions, and wolverines, sometimes winning or losing. A single wolf against a single pit bull wouldnt be a match. The wolf would easily take it out. Wolves can also break moose or elk bones in a few bites. You guys should read up on wolves and watch some videos on them. Its kind of silly thinking pit bulls jaws are like a damn alligator or something, they are a Domestic DOG! I have even heard hideous stories about pits can beat a mountain lion or wolverine as well. whats next, they can beat a tiger.

Answer by youpeoplearestupid
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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ok i just read all of these comments about who has the stronger bite. First off like many people have already said there is NO WAY you can accurately measure bite strength. Secondly all you rednecks that think you pit bull is some kind of god is totally ridiculous!! I mean seriously you really can not compare a domesticated dog against a wild animal. Yes pits were bred to fight dogs, they were bred to fight other DOMESTICATED dogs....much like other pit bulls. The whole bull baiting thing in most cases es actually in all cases es it was more than one pit bull aginst a bull. And bear baiting almost always ended up with the dog or dogs being killed. As for wolves everyday there existence depends on killing and surviving. Do the math people and stop using your stupid one time stories about how your dogs killed another dog that looks like a wolf. Its ignorant! People like you who post comments on here and talk out your ass about what you think you know, it truly is pathetic. Here is an idea go read a book maybe even watch some educational television, talk to some who does not encourage dog fighting or comparing the two. Those are the people who are making dog breeds better and better everyday, and helping to preserve nature. And to all you stupid machos out there I hope your nasty inbred pit latches on to your genitals and does not let go.

Answer by Bill
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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"Remember me I'm a Doberman I used to be somebody"! I don't know what all the hoopla is about PBT,s anyway. My buddy and I raise AB's he has one about 130lb. One day we working our dogs catching wild bore. An acquaintance drives up with a large PBT in his truck, we warned him not to let him out of the truck, because we new he was dog aggressive. Well he did and my buddies AB grabbed that sucker by the head and ran off with him. Took thirty minutes to find them and make him turn it loose. Needless to say he doesn't bring his dog over anymore. You know, as sadistic as man kind is we have fought just about one of everything against something else. I wonder if there is any documented results from an actual pit fighting a wolf. I realize wolves are wild and depend on their killer instinct for survival. However, wolves are pack oriented animals, they almost never kill prey one on one, rabbits or small varmints being the exception to the rule. It's done as a group to avoid injury. Even if they fight one another it almost never results in mortal wounds to each other.

Answer by Blackfoot Indian in Idaho North
Submitted on 4/8/2004
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Great Spirit tells me here are answers, so no one need harm beasts to prove points. Alpha wolf leader of pack can defeat your pit bulls 4 out of 5 times because---wolf has learned over centuries how to feint to side to avoid grizzly swipe, or cougar swipe, wolf knows which direction to move before opponent comes. If the pit bulldog gets bite hold on wolf under throat, wolf fails, or on side of neck. Dog cannot bite back of wolf neck due to wolf stands taller---so, wolf goes for back of dog neck, dog dies. Wolf teeth are longer, penetrate deeper. Jaw power is likely not much different, except to say, wolf meant to crush bones, pit dog to hold a bite both take force. Wolf knows how to move to avoid elk hooves, wolf has training advantage of wilderness dog lacks. Authorities agree wolf is almost always more intelligent than domestic dog. Largest wolf on record was Lobo, King of Currumpaw, north New Mexico, 1893, 207 lbs known as the Giant Cattle Killer. No dog and no wolf can match a healthy cougar, and Indian Devil the wolverine make them all run away till he meets grizzly then he spray bear with musk worse than skunk, for this only reason bear will not fight wolverine.

Answer by Bill
Submitted on 4/8/2004
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In response to the to the Japanese Tosa comment. There is no comparison in the way these dogs are fought. It's like comparing apples and oranges. These fights are staged much as a Sumo wrestling match. No sanctioned Tosa-Ken fight is to the finish. The time limit is 30 minutes and typically the fights last no longer than ten minutes. Any barking or growling disqualifies the dog. The winning dog is not necessarily the one to attack more often or more viscously. Victory depends solely on the spirit of the fighter. If a dog has been dominated by the other dog for the entire duration of a fight, the winner still has yet to be decided. Failure in the fight is decided if the dog whines, groans, or gives up by attempting to run away from the other dog or due to sheer fatigue, is unable to get up again.

Answer by TOSA IS KING
Submitted on 4/9/2004
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[an error occurred while processing this directive] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Web posted Wednesday, October 7, 1998 Japan's Tosa fighting dogs go for the throat in canine sumo KATSURAHAMA, Japan (AP) -- The contenders were itching for a fight. They bolted up the path to the ring and snarled at each other with teeth bared. Then the bell rang -- and they lunged at each other's throats. This was no fight between ordinary heavyweights: It was a brawl in a cherished Japanese tradition, endorsed by no less than the emperor himself: dog fighting. At the center of the sport is the feared Tosa -- a dog so powerful that it is banned in some places. Animal lovers might balk at the violent tradition, but fans of the Tosa gush about its fighting prowess in terms usually reserved for thoroughbreds or fine wine. "A good dog is very special, maybe only one in a thousand," said Masaru Hirose, owner of the Tosa Fighting Dog Center in Katsurahama, 600 miles southwest of Tokyo. Dog fighting in Japan goes back to the 14th century, but Tosas were bred to their current form -- with vice-grip jaws, a powerful chest and a nasty temper -- in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The dogs are impressive. With a short brown coat, full jowls and a stout, muscled physique, the dogs can reach 200 pounds and a height of 26 inches. A champion can sell for tens of thousands of dollars. The rare canine is prized as strong, loyal guards by dog-lovers in the United States, and fans have formed the International Tosa-ken Association. But Tosas are also fighting machines. "Clearly, it is a dog for only very experienced dog-handlers," reads a description put out by WorldClassDogs Inc., adding that the breed is banned in Britain. "It is powerful, stoic and relentless." The Japanese government has tightly controlled the fighting tradition. Gambling is now banned, and Hirose'sdog center along the rocky south coast of Shikoku Island is the country's only licensed fighting center. Periodic title matches, however, can be held elsewhere, and Tosa owners are all over the country. Prized fighters are given the same titles as venerated sumo wrestlers, with top dogs given the "yokozuna," or grand champion ranking. In a match put on for reporters at Hirose'scenter, the dogs bolted across a bloodstained canvas and attacked each other at the throat, standing up on their hind legs. The dogs -- scarred on face and legs from earlier matches -- growled and salivated as they sank their teeth into the loose, almost elastic folds of fur around each other's necks. At title matches -- held at makeshift rings around the country -- more than 100 owners and trainers watch as top Tosas duke it out in bouts that can run as long as 30 minutes. A dog loses when it yelps or tries to flee. Judges declare winners and hand out rankings. Though dogs are often hurt, owners say they don't let the fights get out of hand. With good reason: Tosas are expensive to buy, keep and train. Officials at the dog center say they've never heard of a Tosa being killed in a match. But pulling apart the fiery canines can be difficult. At the end of the match at Hirose'scenter, two trainers leapt into the ring and grabbed the dogs by the tail as a third trainer jutted a flaming torch in their faces. The isolation of the sport's lone training center on Shikoku has kept it off the radar of Japan's tiny animal rights movement. "It's only held in a limited, regional area, and people -- especially young people -- don't really know about it," said Taki Hiramatsu, at Animal Refuge Kansai in Osaka. Despite the gambling ban, Tosa fighting can involve big money. Hirose'scenter displays an ornate dog house built for the 1989 visit of Emperor Akihito -- at the cost of $1 million. The center houses rows of gift shops and a museum and is a popular stop for sightseeing buses. Five-minute fights for tourists are held every day as long as at least 21 customers show up. Visitors are treated to the sight of a "yokozuna" fighter in full regalia, his body draped with elaborately quilted cloths and a thick white rope tied around his neck. The short brawl between two other dogs follows. The center apparently saves the best fighters for title bouts, however. At a recent match for tourists, one of the dogs barely fought back, despite high-pitched cheers from two children on tour with their mother. "It was OK," said Shinsuke Konno, 26, who drove six hours from Kyoto to see the coast and watch a match. "I thought the fight would be more violent." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Enter a search keyword or string. 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Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/11/2004
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What Bill has said is correct. However, the Tosa HAS faced the PB in the fighting pit. These encounters ARE NOT sanctioned, but that is beside the point. In every such match THAT I AM AWARE OF, the TOSA prevailed. Nevertheless, I still think that the PB is the most FEROCIOUS and TENACIOUS of the dog breeds. Given the large investment in owning and training the Tosa, they are not wasted on PB's because that's not where the big money is. Admittedly, we have strayed a bit far from the original question, "which has the greater P.S.I., the Wolf bite or the P.B. bite?" I guess that I began to lose interest after the first few responses, IE.: 1. "there is no accurate way to measure the P.S.I." vs. 2. "the P.S.I. of the wolf's bite is 1,500 lbs." Given the vast technology that exists today, it is difficult to believe that we cannot measure the p.s.i. of the bite of ANY animal that we wish to know about. It is apparent that there isn't sufficient interest to do so, however. One last thought: the p.s.i. of the bite does not translate into "who would prevail in a fight." I hike in the mountains, AND I CARRY A BIG GUN!

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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All of you PETA members/wolf lovers are so in tune with nature it's unbelievable. The closest you fags have been to the outdoors is the new rock climbing wall at your health club. For those of us who know the real deal (not those of you with the BMW and the Greenpeace Jacket) the wolf has NEVER (yes, I said NEVER) beaten a Pit Bull in any documented fight. The reason you will probably never see a fight between the two is because nobody is stupid enough to put a "cur" like a wolf in a fight with a game bred Pit Bull. Nobody except you, I guess. Then you would have another dead wolf to cry about. And for you Tosa lovers out there, dream on. Every once in a while the Tosa has won, but fights between the 2 are very rare nowadays, the Pits the Japanese use are usually not the best quality, and more often than not, the Pit still wins. Tosa's are too slow and tire too fast most of the time. A Tosa would, however, defeat/kill a wolf if the two ever fought. Many dog breeds were developed to protect flocks of domesticated animals from wolves (mastiff types and derivatives) and they did (and still do in Central Asia) actually kill wolves. These breeds, although tougher than a wolf, cannot defeat Pit Bulls in fights, so why do you think a wolf could? Hunting/killing and combat/fighting are very different abilities. Don't believe me, I don't expect you pocket protecting pseudo-nature freaks to understand. Just go rent Call of the Wild and watch what happens. And STOP talking about things you know nothing about.

Answer by Bjorn
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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I consider myself fortunate to have witnessed two wolf kills, one in Yellowstone national park where a single wolf took down a full grown elk all by it's lonesome.Northern Alberta thee wolves killed a bull moose, one wolf had hold of the face,for twenty minutes. this wolf held tight,being lifted off the ground and shook like a chew toy, never releasing it's grip until the moose was down.This was no dog holding onto a rope dangling from a tree.Wolves have what's called a flight or fight response,when in unfamiliar territory , and wolves are very territorial, they prefer flight or escape.So to put a wolf into a pit with a dog it's instinct is to escape not fight.Advantage probably to the dog.If you drop a pit bull into the territory of a wolf no contest the wolf will kill the dog.Instinct to protect it's territory makes the wolf a formidable fighter . Response to John you probably have never been ten feet into the wild your entire life. p.s. Jack London books are fiction.

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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Bjorn, cool name, do you tell the guys at the health club you're a viking? I don't care what you SAY you saw from your Minivan as you drove through Yellowstone, for a wolf to take down an adult elk by itself there was something wrong with the elk. BTW, watching Wild America videos doesn't count for what you've seen. And yes, wolves do hunt and kill moose, so what does that prove? Every animal, including us, you jackass, has a flight or fight response. That means nothing. So, here's what's important: fight them in a Pit and you get a dead wolf; have them fight in your back yard and you get a dead wolf; put a wolf over a dead moose and let a Pit go after it and you get a dead wolf. You get the theme, here? It's not even close, wolves are not built or bred for the purpose of fighting, they stand about as much of a chance as a german shepherd would, which is none. PS, the story maybe fiction, but the fight in the movie was not.

Answer by Neal Hall
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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This John guy has to be either a dumb teenager or and immature adult who doesnt know anything. First off, The Jack Landon film was a MOVIE, a damn movie man. if you base your facts on movies, you have a lot to learn in life kid. I lived in yellowstone national park for three months and while i was there, i studied and searched for wolves on my time off. I have seen a wild wolf run right in front of my car one time, one of the coolest things i have ever seen. There are a good amount of differences from wolves and dogs, and there is a saying that wildlife biologists use saying that a Wolf is NOT a Dog, but ALL dogs come from wolves. BJORN made a good post putting a wolf in a ring around a bunch of people would be worthless. Wolves have a natural fear of humans and are very skittish around humans. They say your very lucky to ever see a wild one. You should do some studying up on wolves before you make assumptions. They are books you can read on wolves killing animals and there is a record of a single, one legged alpha wolf killing a moose after 3 days of consistent attacks. That is damn amazing. moose are huge and are very lethal, and have been known to injure and even kill humans. but in all, i know the truth to this argument in which some of yall dummies think a domesticated dog is going to kill a predator of the wild. There is also another post somewhere where some people think a pit can kill a wolverine, FREAKING AMAZING PEOPLE. can they kill a gorilla, tiger, bear, etc. as well. cant wait for the answers on this.

Answer by Fred
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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I was watching the Discovery Channel the other night. It's the one where they have WHAT IF THESE TWO ANIMALS FOUGHT. That night it was WOLF vs. COUGAR. They measured bite strength by using the animal's skull and measuring the holes in the jaws where the muscle mass would be. Then after certain calculations, they got the bite strength. A full grown cougar had a bite strength of 300 pounds, whereas a full grown alpha male wolf had a bite strength of 500 pounds. But these animals usually charge at you when they bite, so they measured the bite with momentum. The wolf had I think 1400 pounds, and the cougar only 8-900 pounds. They mentioned that cougars are only deliver 80 pounds more of pressure than a human, so that would make us at 220 pounds.(I'm assuming this is in per square inch...not sure) I've read somewhere that pit bulls are rated at 190, whereas rots and dobermans (next highest) are rated at 90. Not sure on these facts though. I remember the wildlife vet saying that the wolf has so much more power than a pit bull or rot (which they later proved through bite strength tests). They made actual metal models of their head and jaw (with teeth), and gave each the appropriate jaw strength using a hydraulic system. They stuck a coconut in the jaw to resemble bone. They both broke through the coconut in one bite with ease, but the wolf model made a bigger impact than the cougar. They also weigh up to 150 pounds so force and momentum would play a role. The thing is wolves are carnivores. They survive by killing and feeding on animals that are sometimes bigger than they are. But they work as a pack. They also have bigger canines than pit bulls. So one bite to the neck would puncture deeper than a pit bull's would, meaning better chances of reaching the spinal cord. Well anyways, after gathering all the facts of both animals. (their bite strength, jaw size, body size, fighting style, etc.) They made a little computer animated model of what would happen if both met. The cougar killed the wolf with one bite to the neck after a little struggle and using its paws to pounce on the wolf. The cougar has longer canines than the wolf, that's why they mostly only need one bite to kill their prey. So I would say that a pit bull would have no chance against a wolf.

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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Neal, sorry you were homeless for three months, but couldn't you have found a dumpster to crawl in instead of polluting a national park with your presence? While we're bragging about where we all have lived, I spent a year living in Kyrgyzstan (get a map, it's not on your Greenpeace distro list) building an american military base. In this country they have wolves, lots of them. They use Caucasian Ovcharkas, (that's a dog) and a few other breeds to protect their flocks/herds and they do KILL wolves all the time. They've been doing this for centuries there. And that is in a wild setting, not a Pit. I've seen dead wolves with Ovcharkas standing over them. Very rarely is the dog the one who dies, and when that happens it is because the odds are not equal (whole pack versus only 1 or 2 guard dogs). Additionally, dog fighting is not only legal but part of the culture there. They match all different dogs there, and, without question, the Pit Bull is the King of fighting dogs. Even in Central Asia, where the Pit Bulls are not the best quality, and they are pitted against some breeds that weight nearly 100 pounds more, the Pit wins more often than not. I personally watched 20 matches. You can love your wolf all you want, when it comes to fighting they have NO chance. The Kyrghyz folks won't even fight the wolves they have because they just plain lose all the time. It is not sporting to them. You're right, the wolf wouldn't know how to act in a Pit, the fight wouldn't be fair. But, wolves get killed rather easily by Ovcharkas who are defending livestock, and Ovcharkas lose in fights with Pits. You do the math. Just because it's wild doesn't mean it can fight. It means it can hunt and kill in order to survive, but it doesn't make it's living killing other wolves; if it did then we could talk. Pits are built to fight, and that's it. Take any fastlane, catchweight (55-62 lb) APBT and put it in there with the biggest Alpha Male wild, moose killing wolf you can find, I don't care how many legs he has, and the fight would not last 10 minutes. The wolf, even outdoors and not in a Pit, would actually quit (if he wasn't dead yet) and try to get away well before 10 minutes, he would "cur", so to speak. A wolf could never deal with a Pits strength, speed, or tolerance to pain. I'm sure you've never seen a real Pit in action, just download a video from the internet, since that's where you get all your "personal" information anyway. And read the history about this breed before you judge, not just the newspaper clippings that have some Pit killing another kid or poodle. You nature-lovers don't know anything about dogs, even wild ones. I mean this is nothing new, man has been breeding/creating livestock guard dogs to protect their animals from wolves for hundreds of years. There are at least 10 different dog breeds that can kill a wolf. Try to think about this logically, if wolves were such great fighters, we'd be using them as fighting dogs instead of creating a breed that can do it better than all the others. You can hate these dogs all you want, I think it is stupid/dangerous to have them as Pets, irresponsible people are ruining the breed, but they are what they are: the finest fighting canine in the world, they will never quit, and, if conditioned properly, they will never stop. If you ever get the chance to actually see a working Pit (like a pig dog) on a hunt for hog or bear, you will finally understand what I'm talking about.

Answer by Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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I live in Idaho North. Maybe you never hear of our tribe. We never hear of you either, and we missed out on nothing. Go to URL I left for Indian Devil. maybe he come out of monitor and take chunk of your leg. From "New Hunter's Encyclopedia" 1966, page 171 "The wolverine is one of the most dreaded animals in all North America. He not only strikes terror into the hearts of all the smaller creatures but even the moose is afraid of him. The bear and the mountain lion will give up a fresh kill to him, and even a pack of wolves have been known to give ground at his approach." "He is a compact bundle of steel-hard muscle wrapped in fur. Incredibly powerful for his size, he also possesses more cunning, more courage, more meanness, and more ferocity than any other animal in the wild. He fears nothing and shows no hesitation in attacking any other animal if the occasion warrants a fight. His teeth and long sharp claws are the instruments of his ABNORMAL STRENGTH. It is always a fight to the death, either for himself or his adversary, and a wolverine seldom loses." Disgusted has gone away, and is drifting out to sea............

Answer by Richard
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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The original topic was what animal bites harder, not what animal would win in a fight. So i will say this. The bite pressure of either animal has never been meassured with some kind of tool, but data collected from the skulls of the animals shows that the muscles witch are responsible for the power of the bite are nearly 3 times larger in a wolf than a pit bull. i read up there that somebody said a wolf has no need for a strong bite, but actually it does. you can't bring down a 1,700 pound moose with weak jaws. i have seen a wolf on a mooses thigh being kicked around like a rag doll and it never let go. and that was a 180 pound wolf at that. and i have also read in this topic that "wolves hunt in packs and they never fight." well yes they do hunt in packs but some wolves have been seen killing full grown moose by themselves, just like a pit bull would kill a bull. and wolves fight each other all the time. a wolf doesn't get to be alpha male by vote. he has to fight every other male in his pack to get that spot and then he has to defend against outsiders and upstarts trying to take his spot. also, either animal only needs as much jaw power as is needed to hold onto a large animal and not let go when being flung around. at 65 pounds, a pit need less power that a 150-190 pound wolf. i also read that somebody said "wolves get tired to easy" nothing could be further from the truth. the fact is that all canines have excellent endurance. it has been documented that a wolf can run almost full speed for 12 miles or more. almost all of their muscle mass is made of the deep red muscle made for power and endurance, as apposed to a cat witch is mostly the brighter pinkish fast twitch muscle that lets them sprint very fast but tire quickly. i would also like to address the issue of "lock jaw" a condition that pit bulls are known for. there is NO SUCH THING as lock jaw. it is true that a pit bull will not let go once it grabs something but that is due to it's "game" or courage and tenacity, not any mechanism in the muscle or bone structure of the dog. now i know most of you are just saying that i don't know what i am talking about and that i am a peta wolf lover, but i really do know and i am not a memeber of peta and i own a pit named cujo who i love like a son. i know he has strong jaws, i left him alone in the back yard with my spare tire and an hour later it was shreded all over my yard. but his head and jaws are less that half the size of an adult male wolfs head and jaws. it is like comparing a jack russel terrier's jaws to a pit bulls, there is no comparison. now as far as what animal would win in a fight, you have to concider a few things, was the pit bull trained by humans to fight or was it just a family dog that got loose up in the minisota country side? if the dog was bred for fighting then yes the animals would fight and the wolf would probably be suprised by the pits ferocity and just run away. but if the wolf happened to be in a bad mood or very hungry and wanting to eat the pit bull, well i hate to say it but if a wolf can kill a mule deer by biting it once on the back of the neck and crushing it's spine, then it would have no trouble killing a pit. no amount of "game" or resistance to pain will stop that. if the pit was lucky enough to get a neck bite then it stands a good chance but the wolf would be ready for that kind of thing from fighting other wolves it's whole life. i'dsay that between a wolf and a trained fighting pit, i give the odds to the wolf about 85%. if the pit wasn't trained as a fighter, i would raise the wolfs chances to 95%. and don't start with the "but you never seen this and you haven't seen that" because i have. my neighbor bred and fought pits for 4 years before i finally turned him in for trying to steal my dog to fight. i have seen hundreds of fights literally over the fence in my back yard. and i have seen wolves in action too. i regularly travel to minnisota to hunt with my grandfather and we have seen wolves fighting each other and hunting other animals. and the wolf is just plain bigger and stronger and a better fighter. and it's reflexes and speed in a battle is just as fast as a pit bull also. wolves have been evolving over millions of years to be hunters of large game and fighters for position in packs. pit bulls have been bred over a couple decades to kill bulls by clamping over the nose and suffocating it, not crushing it. a wolf also has bite power to crush large bones in a few bites to get at bone marrow witch comes in handy during the winter when prey is less plentifull. i am not a biologist by any means but i have been collecting information about animals my whole life from any source i can find and double checking those results to make sure there are no discrepincies in the information, so i really do know what i am talking about here. you can go on and keep thinking a pit will win in a fight if you want, but just know that a wolf bites much harder, and that is a fact.

Answer by rell_baby
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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Some co-workers and I were discussing Wolves and hyenas and their bite pressure which brought me to this post. I just so happened to come across a lot of info on bite pressure/force for Hyenas, wolves, pits and crocks. Here is what I found...with links. (I found similar info on several sites, but I just picked a couple to post here. I encourage doubters to research additional info themselves) http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/faq.asp#14 Wolves - about 1500psi http://www.edba.org.au/courier.html Pits - about 2000 psi Oh BTW, a Hyena puts out about twice the PSI as a pit and is the king of bite in the dog kingdom. And to let you know that all this means squat, a rat has about a 7000 psi bite. The debate is still open on weather a rat can defeat a wolf in a fight. Rell

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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Actually, psi has little to do with the overall bite. Strain gauges would be more accurate. If you use the strain gauge, the wolf's bite is at least five times greater than the pit bull. Discovery magazine said that the alligator has the most powerful bite. There is also a very big misconception here. Russian and Irish wolfhounds were bred to HELP CATCH wolves, not to defeat them in mutual combat. The dogs would annoy and detract the wolf while the hunter shot the wolf. I suspect that most of you don't hunt, or must be kids. Do you seriously think that a single dog was used to hunt down and kill a wolf? Most wolves travel in packs. A hunting dog does not KILL the animal .... it simply distracts the animal. This is how I kill bears. Did you think the hunting dog killed the bear? In Wisconsin, dogs used for hunting bear, coyotes, bobcat, and raccoons, are often the victim of wolves. Pets are often the victims of wolves, and this includes all types of dogs. For you arm chair types, there's some issues that every hunter must address. If you are looking for bear sign at a bait, you must make sure to also look for wolf tracks. You've got to know your own dog's tracks, so that you can distinguish it from any wolf tracks. They are similar, did you know? Sometimes a specific bait site is receiving sign. It must be discontinued until the wolves have left Wolves will and do kill guarding dogs, farmyard dogs and hunting dogs. Wolves often kill guarding dogs in wolf states, such as Wisconsin. Every farmer knows this. There are warnings for farmers and other people possessing dogs of all kinds: it seems that wolves kill dogs because they view them as predators, competing with them for food. Ever heard of depredation? The state pays people when the wolves kill their animals. In WI, it was about $158,000.00 As for people traveling abroad and seeing "wolves fighting dogs" ..... this is bull. Gamblers fight the animals mostly for profit. There isn't too much profit in fighting a wolf and a dog. They aren't evenly matched and the wolf easily wins. It's like the old lion vs tiger myth ... they fought them in Roman times and the lion always won. It wasn't much of a contest and people lost interest. They also fought them in the US, but again...the novelty wore off quickly. How many people would bet on a man fighting a lion with his bare hands? The pit bull is a tough dog. However, it's also used because it's relatively cheap compared to some other breeds, and it's also smaller and less costly to feed. If you have ever gone to a dog fight, the owners must always agree to the match before the fight.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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The sources that quote pit bulls with 2000 pound bites are not reliable sources. Come on. There are several correlations reflecting large bite force: an animal with a small mandibular inclination and gonial angle, and a large posterior face height in relation to the anterior face height. Bite force must be correlated to the number of occlusal contacts. Pit bulls lock on to each other's heads. An alligator would easily crush their skulls. These dogs will hang on, sometimes for 30 minutes or more. If their bites were so forceful, their skulls would crack. According to the discovery channel, dogs commonly have bite forces of about 175 pounds, and that's not even 1/20th that of an alligator. The University of Florida has measured bite force from a grant by the National Geographic society. The most "bite force" produced by a dog is about 200 pounds of CRUSH force. THis is not enough to damage industrial boot toes and so on ....

Answer by kiyiyah
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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I found this site whilst looking for information on heart worm. I grew up with wolves and have a pack of 14 Grey Wolves on 300 acres of fenced land. I have never seen, nor do I want to see a wolf fighting a pit bull. I find dog fighting as a "sport" extremely sick. Wolves do fight other packs but rarely kill in the process as survival of the pack is more important. They will in some circumstances kill other wolves if survival of the pack is at stake. They can and do crush big bones in a very short time, they do not just eat the flesh of an animal. Putting a pit bull against a wolf would be rather pointless so why not just try your arm in a pit bulls mouth then the other in a wolves mouth, that way you will know from personal experience and no animal will be harmed!!! The best source for wolf information is L David Mech, try a net search and ask him, he is probably the worlds foremost authority on wolves. Personally I would rather live with wolves than pit bulls, but neither are aggressive unless taught to be by man. The wolf hunts for survival and a pit bull can be as good a pet as any other dog if not made aggressive by the owners! I suggest you do some real unprejudiced research before making "positive" statements. kiyiyah@telefonica.net

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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Actually, wolves "commonly" kill predators that they believe are in competition. In WI alone, at least 40 or 50 dogs are proven to be killed by wolves. You don't have to fight them to know which one would win. In wolf states, there aren't any wolves being killed by dogs ... wolves commonly kill the dogs, however! Wolves are too dangerous for pets. If you have taken genetics, you learn that a wild animal eats when it's hungry. They will even eat their own when they are injured. Animal trainers train wild animals from birth. The wild animal thinks that the trainer is the alpha male and so he doesn't eat him. However, if you show any weakness whatsoever, the animal attacks. Coy Horn learned this first hand. The tiger for some reason realized Horn was not so strong. The tiger tested Horn's strength. Horn's response was a punch with the microphone to the nose. This is what all the trainers do when they are in trouble. At that point, the tiger realized horn was not so strong. Then, Horn became very terrified and realized he was about to be killed. He then did the worst thing he could do. He tripped and fell. Sick animals or old animals do this. The tiger went for the death bite and wrapped its teeth around Horn's neck, one set of fangs puncturing the neck and severing the vertebral artery. Medical experts said that Horn would immediately pass out and so � he didn�t say anything at that point, including �don�t hurt the tiger.� That was a lie by Zigfreid. They should have shot the tiger, but they didn�t. At any rate, all wild animals are this way. They might appear affectionate, but they are still wild. Dogs have, through many centuries, had the wild gene bred out �. Except some dogs are still aggressive. The predator must kill and eat just about every day. There�s no reason to get into a tough fight � so predators generally won�t fight an animal that can even inflict minor wounds. This is why those stupid stories of wolverines standing up to bears have some significance to people. The bear could easily kill the wolverine. However, it�s just not worth it to fight with it and suffer even minor injuries. Lions are a little different. Sometimes the male will fight very hard � not to eat, but just to fight. The pit bull is this way. They use these animals because they have heart and keep fighting until the owners pull them off. Dog fighting is still popular in some states, although it�s now illegal everywhere. Most dog fights end when the animal is obviously in trouble. The owners pry the two animals apart. The pit bull can be in a death lock and still be wagging its tail and � smiling. So, people think that they like to fight. I hunt, but it�s because I am a nature lover. The elk herd often gets so large that the elk starve to death. The herd must be thinned out. There must be a ten to one predator ratio. There are areas where the predator becomes too common or threatens people because they have lost their fear of people. It�s important to kill them. I also get my Christmas tree from the National Park. The lazy �green people� that don�t know anything about nature often complain that we are killing trees; however, we track through deep snow and high altitudes�cold weather �.and other hardships to save trees. The trees can grow so close together that entire hillsides die. The rangers mark the trees that can be taken. It�s the same with bear and lion and deer. When the predator ratio is right, they don�t issue hunting permits. I only do what the armchair people that say they love animals should be doing. I have never lost a dog to a wolf, but I fell a few years ago and lost a very expensive dog to an alligator � the locator indicated that the animal was in the swamp, but it moved and so the dog must have been eaten. I paid about $1200.00 for it as a pup, but it was worth twice that because it was trained. I also lost one that next year to a bear. If you use a hunting dog, you must run with the pack. Unfortunately, a companion had a bad fall and I had to stop the bleeding. The dog got too far ahead and by the time I had arrived, both dogs were dead. You�ve got time to get there � you can even let them get � of a mile ahead at times � but you can�t let them wait too long or they will eventually get nailed. One was an African hunting dog or mix (they are illegal in many areas). Unlike most predators, wild dogs will not eat prey they did not kill, no matter how fresh the carcass may be. The African hunting dog will also not eat prey they did not kill. They will find prey that other predators have killed and most predators return to their kills to eat. It makes them easier to hunt. African hunting dogs, at least in the wild state, do not return to a previous kill. I don�t know why. But it would make them hard to hunt. You can�t trap them easily. Although they hunt larger prey in a pack, and they can run at 48km/h for six or seven km. This will run down any animal I have seen. They pack in nature and run in packs of 20 or more � in the old days, sometimes, there were a few hundred of them. They could kill anything with this number �.just about. Also, dogs are not genetically competitive. Neither are humans for that matter. A lion can run about 36mph � if one can run this speed, just about all can run it. Nature makes them almost equal in strength and speed. It�s because of natural selection � humans have a great diversity because they don�t have to compete to live � some are fat and slow and ugly. They live on, but if they were a lion, they would be dead. Dogs also don�t have to compete to live. There are all kinds and even fat greyhounds. Many would not make it in the wild. It�s silly to compare a domestic dog with a wild animal such as a wolf.

Answer by Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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HOW COME Detroit has SO MANY pit bulls seems like they want hyenas instead due to ANCESTRY Pit Bull fellow with such ancestry boast to me about hyenas chase lions off. Yes---9 to 1 and up. Nature show feature film of lion called "he who greets with fire" killing hyena, breaking its back by clubbing it with its front legs. Look at a stuffed cougar if chance takes place. You will be amazed at thickness of its legs. Same thing on shorter wolverine. Creatures with strong legs dominate. Such as, the pro boxer has reputation for toughness. But, matched in anything goes against Olympic lifter, the non-fighter knocks hell and blazes out of MUCH WEAKER opponent. Wrestler also kick boxer's rear end, due to greater strength. Wolf have more size than pit dog, with such goes more strength. Like my cousins work General Custer over.

Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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what is going on here? really! could it be that we all have too much time on our hands? what about this absurdity? could a komodo dragon eat a pit bull and a wolf simultaneously? no self-respecting native american would ever refer to himself as an "indian". almost everyone understands that "indians" are from india. "me think old man drink too much firewater." sounds like something out of an old roy rogers movie. native americans today own and operate casinos and have degrees. put that in your peacepipe and take a drag. the poor chap who posed the original question concerning psi of bites has probably died of old age by now, but if he hasn't, he now at least knows that he asked the wrong question in the first place. the next thing that we will probably see in this chatroom is some guy's receipt for baking cookies made out of wolf's tongue. i think that it's time that we all take a good look at ourselves using this website as our mirror. and this applies especially to me. frankly dude, i'm embarrassed!

Answer by OKAY Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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skeptic you are out to split hairs we all know Columbus was trying to get somewhere else, he got here instead then we were plastered with word "Indians" and we know about India too we are so tired of being called Indians that we gave up on making beliefs right it's almost a case of, everyone is in the wrong, so everyone is in the right skeptic, I suggest you should not believe anything, including your face in the mirror you are offensive giving RACIAL STEREOTYPE about "firewater" and peacepipes; you know nothing as to my age, I am 36, hold degree from University of Montana. whiskey was worked on Native Americans by you white settlers to ruin us, so you could kill all our fur animals, and grab our gold lands, and destroy the buffalo

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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Come on! This has nothing to do with the topic and for those that don't like the topic, find another forum! You might be bored with your life and you keep telling everyone, but I don't have this problem, dude! Dogs with longer legs have better visibility and have this advantage when hunting ... obviously, the longer legs are not an advantage in a fight necessarily, but aid the dog in finding prey for the hunter. A Russian familiar with wolves once said, ""If dogs are attacking and tearing at you, fight against the dogs, but do not call a wolf for help. Because when the wolves come, they will destroy the dogs, but they will also tear you apart." Solzhenitsyn In Alaska, there are so many wolves that they must hunt and kill them. I have never hunted wolves, but I have known people that have hunted wolves in Alaska. The problem today is that we have a very stupid press. They will hear something or read something and they don't understand what it means. A lion can kill an animal with a swipe of its paw. When it chases prey, it will knock an animal the size of a horse down by swiping it with its paw. Yet the press will report that pit bulls were used to fight lions and bears...as though it was a match. It wasn't. In fact, unless you cut tendons on the wild animal, the dog would be killed the first time the lion hit it with its paw. Polar bears can kill 600 pound animals much tougher than a pit bull with a single swipe. Even women have fought off pit bulls and killed them with a broom or by kicking them. In the several hundred years of the Roman days when people were fed to lions, no man succeeded in killing a lion with his bare hands or even with a stick. It's almost impossible even with a group. That's why killing a lion is such a big deal. If you take comparative anatomy, you will find that a human can only be about 1/10th as strong as a gorilla of the same weight. Most "fighting dogs" have some advantages ... the pit has loose skin so that they are harder to bite ... but not for a large animal. They are strong and muscular and can pull weight, but of course their low stance is a disadvantage to pulling in snow. They are unlike predators that kill for their living ... they will fight until they die, and few predators will do this. To a predator, it's just a job. They will only take "easy" prey and most animals are easy for a lion; however, a lion cannot kill a healthy elephant. Pit bulls are domestic dogs. They couldn't kill me, not even two of them. I wouldn't want to fight two lions or even one ... and in Alaska, the only wolf reported killed by a dog was a very young pup. Pit bull owners are typically cowards and pansies. They own the animal because they are weak. They expect the animal to do their fighting and they exaggerate the animal's power. The press is often stupid and interpret the world in strange ways .. they read about dogs hunting and think that the dog kills the hunter's prey. My worst fear is that I won't be there in time to save the dog. MOST hunters know to avoid hunting where they see wolf tracks because the wolf will go for the dog and kill it. To bad the press doesn't understand this concept.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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According to the Center for Disease Control: "Statistics Only about 12 people die each year in the U.S. from dog bites. And making it even worse is the fact that 70% of the fatalities are youngsters (newborns to age 5). But overall, 12 deaths a year is a reassuringly small number. In fact, "fatal bites are just 0.00001% of all dog bites annually." American pit bull terriers, American Staffordshire bull terriers, Rottweilers or any other breed of dog determined by the Department of Health to exhibit particularly powerful jaws, aggressiveness, and the ability to withstand infliction of pain to a degree that makes such breed particularly dangerous." "In the US, from 1979 - 1988, 70% of dog bite deaths were to children < 10 years (Sacks et al, 1989) and, in 1995 � 1996, 80% were children. The highest rate in 1995 � 1996 was for infants < 3 months of age. Among the 11 Australian deaths reported between 1979 and 1996, 36% were children aged < 5 years, 36% were aged 70 years and over and the remaining cases were aged between 35 and 69 years. Newspaper reports suggest that a further 2 cases occurred in Australia in the 1986 to 1996 period, which were not recorded as dog bite in the official death figures (Milburn et al, 1997). Anyway, the four pit bulls in Colorado seemed to run from yard to yard looking for victims to bite and they did bite others; however, they found an older woman to kill ... her son was an adult. I can't imagine them bringing a Moose down or even a large man with a stick. They are just little dogs, after all, and they don't have claws or long teeth. Their true strength is tenacity. But they are just domestic dogs. Get over this hero worship, dudes.

Answer by matt_p11
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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Some people seem to elevate Pit bulls to some type of mythical status. Yes, they are tough dogs, but world beaters? In a fight its tough to generalize though. I have a 2 year old, 60lb female pit. She is extremely strong for her size. Her athleticism impresses me. My 5ft fence does not keep her in my yard. However, my 8yr old male German Shepard can still kick her butt any time he wants. I would say he is not an average though Shepherd though. He has been in fights with several Rottweiler'slarger then he is and pinned them on the ground. His conditioning and athleticism used to be incredible. I've had him running for 6 hours while I was mountain biking. He grew up with a Rottweiler(they brought down a deer together) so he was used to dealing with a strong bulky dog. In the end, he has decent gene's much more conditioning that the average pet that gets walked every day(though I think many dont get walked). He still thinks he is tough, though he has had his better days. Hips are good, but shoulder isn't so good. Before people get bent out of shape, I am sure there are plenty of Pit Bulls that could have kicked his butt. I am sure there are Pit Bulls that have beaten wolves and lost to wolves. Also, not all wolves are equal. I believe many of these 3rd world wolf storys were using some thin, cage kept ~75lb variety. In an open field I would give a large Gray Alpha male the benefit of doubt over a PitBull. There are plenty of smaller wolf breeds around the world that would be easier for a PitBull. http://www.stormpages.com/shadowwolf/species.html In the end its pointless. Modern dogs are probably much weaker that the Mastifs used in Gladiator times or times older. In addition, the really big wolf species are no longer around either. Also ----> re: Try to think about this logically, if >wolves were such great fighters, we'd be >using them as fighting dogs instead of >creating a breed that can do it better than >all the others. Logic does not work. People fight chickens too! Can a fighting chicken beat a wolf?. PitBulls are very tough for their size, portable, cheap, capable of being handled by humans, and most important....."Game".

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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This is just silly. Some of you guys are just blind. Also, some of those facts about pits and wolves having 2000 and 1500 psi jaw strength is not true. Pit bulls do NOT have 2000 psi, nor 1500 psi, we dont even know what wolves are, but we know it is stronger and its estimated from the discovery channel episode that it is around 1900 psi. Wolves fight pretty often in the wild, and many wolves are killed by other packs. Do me a favor people, go to www.forwolves.org and go to ralphs page and look up instances of wolves killing other wolves. or just ask ralph there, who has helped with the reintroduction to wolves into yellowstone. send him an email and let him post it on his official website in which many books and articles refer to his website for info. Its just amazing to me that some of you think pit bulls are unbeatable. its insane. I have a book that i am looking at right now where a man who helped rid wolves back in 1920's said he would use at least 10 dogs to chase one wolf towards him where he would then club or shoot it. He said he was always worried about if he was going to lose a dog. he said in one chase, that one of his dogs started to nip at the running wolf and the wolf just reached around and bit it on its shoulder and ripped one of its ribs out, then had a tussle with another dog while being chased and literally crushed its skull, obviously killing the dog. Wolves are known to be some of the fiercest and most territorial animals. Go do some research on wolves, read books, ask wildlife or wolf biologists who work with these animals in the wild and they will just laugh at you. its a stupid comparison. As people who have guard dogs around their ranches to help protect from wolves, coyotes, and bears and ask if a pit bull, rott, mastiff could beat a single wolf. They will tell you simply, the wolf will tear it too pieces. In that same book, the book said that when hunters did chase a wolf with dogs, the only time the dogs killed a SINGLE wolf was there were at least around TEN large mastiff dogs.. now you will say i told you so, mastiff kind of dogs can kill a wolf, well they can if they are 10 of them. just go to forwolves.org and and ask the editor there. and tell him to post it on his website.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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haha! Listen, for the dudes that think a pit bull is the match for a wolf, I suggest you call the state police in WI or AK. Wolves kill dogs regularly, there are no records of a dog killing a wolf. Other fallacies that were mentioned here from people that use any trash site they find ... such as the one about the jaws being different from other dogs.. * "MYTH: The jaws of "Pit Bull" breeds are unique in that they can exert 2000 pounds P.S.I. when biting, and the jaws lock, creating a tendency to tear flesh, which results in grotesque injuries to human victims. All dog jaws work in the same manner. There is nothing unique to the jaws of the "Pit Bull" breeds that cause them to lock. Their jaws are large and powerful, as are the jaws of many other large breeds. Likewise, all dog bites tear flesh in exactly the same manner regardless of the breed of the dog. The extent of the injuries is based solely on the size and strength of the dog involved. This particular "myth" originated in a Ripley's Believe It Or Not cartoon. There is no scientific evidence anywhere to back it up. " Cindy Cooke, V.P, UKC

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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Table A1. Total Wolf Depredation on Pets and Livestock Dogs killed 27 1* $41,000.00 Dogs Injured 9 1* $1,305.16 The pit bull is not really even competition for the wolf. The pit bull was not the "toughest dog" He was a downsized animal that was cheaper to feed. He was chosen shortly after fighting was outlawed in England toward the end of the 19th century. Butchers also wanted a dog that could do its work but not eat as much. The pit bull was a good choice. Shakespeare referred to Mastiffs as "the dogs of war," and Henry VIII is known to have given King Charles V of Spain several hundred Mastiffs to use as fighting dogs on the battlefield. Trained fighting mastiffs were also used by the ancient Celts, by Kubla Khan, and by Hannibal when he crossed the Alps. Even as recently as the two World Wars, Mastiffs were used to pull munitions carts on the fronts. Pit bulls are not used as military dogs. Rots or dobbermans have this chore. Also, I can tell that no one here knows anything about real dog fighting. The trait of the pit bull to "hang on" is no advantage at all. In a fight, by both "English" and common "Cajun" rules, the bogs must be broken up if they "fang" or remain locked too long. That's not fighting. The dogs are first washed in the ring. They are dried and wrapped in towels for a time. A cat is often thrown to each of them to get them "ready" and the cat lasts about five seconds. If the dogs become "fanged" they are separated with a "breaking stick" If the dog turns away from the other dog, he is often scratched....he is placed on the other side of a line and when the ref says "let go" the dog must cross that line and make contact with the other dog. If he doesn't ... he loses....or if he jumps out of the pit (it's about 12-14 feet across)..otherwise, the live dog is the winner. If the dogs are latched for two minutes, they are separated, the handlers can pick them up "free of holds" They must be "free of holds" before being picked up...if they are not "free of holds" when picked up, they must be placed upon the ground and separated. They are easily handled by men...if the dog should bite one of the men in the ring (there are three of them), he is barred forever from fights and must be "culled." In NYC last year, almost a thousand pit bulls were taken because they were used for fighting; however, many of these guys are drug dealers and not dog geniuses...so, these animals are often not bred properly and will attack people. LA has the same problem. In the old days, mastiffs were used to actually kill soldiers on horses and with swords. I can't imagine a pit bull doing that. Most dogs only fight briefly, a matter of seconds. They quickly decide the prime male and stop fighting. The pit bull keeps going. Most matches don't end in death, contrary to popular opinion. They also have lots of fights in WY and of course in Cajun country. The pit is a dog ... no more. He would not stand a chance against a wolf.

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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skeptic---bug off I don't have any use for your approach whites aren't bad simply for being white if you want to get even for slavery, ask the black professor in Brooklyn who he thinks is guilty to the subject here---pit owners overrate their animals and underrate wolves you know your dogs, but you know not the wolf because you have spent no time near him we also have smaller animal than wolverine can kill any of your dogs---porcupine Animal Planet showed this morning film of porcupine harassed by lions but lions quit after too many stab wounds keep pushing matters with your dogs maybe Great Spirit will turn wolf tail into wasp stinger and he murder your dogs more easily that works for those who believe evolution fables serious researchers can give closely matched bones to big wolf and to big pit bull to see which snaps bone first our confidence is in the wolf since he's in the bone snapping business elk and moose thigh bones much stronger than human bones and again the smaller wolverine snaps the bones faster than the wolf

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/19/2004
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Talking about a wolverine, have any of you seen "Brotherhood of the Wolf?" It's a great movie, based very closely upon historical events. Many believe the BEAST was a martin or some form such as a wolverine. It looked like a wolf, sort of ... but had short legs and was long...as big as a cow, they said. It would typically attack during the day and would crush the skulls of its victims, sometimes dropping from the trees. It always ate the liver, for the most part ... and sometimes just drank the blood. In the movie the hero made a fake one for the king...this is because when they finally shot the animal, it was displayed in the Paris Museum of Natural History until the early 1900's and then destroyed ... the French said that all the hair had fallen out. This surprised people because this monster was one of the most famous tales from France. The rumor started that the stuffed animal had been faked. It was also resistant to guns, but many believe that the animal moved so fast that hunters just missed it. The Beast caused economic ruin because everyone was afraid to tend their animals or go into the field. Thousands starved and it threatened the monarchy itself. The king sent many men to kill the beast; however, I doubt if these guys knew Kung Fu and the movie had some cultural problems. Anyway, the animal was about eight or ten feet long (body only) and had a tail that was about as long. It was about 3 feet high. It was described as having a long mouth with huge teeth. It acted like a wolf ... it did not return to the kill and would not eat bait that was dead. As a hunter, I know how much more difficult it is to trap this kind of game. At any rate, it was not a pit bull. There are cave drawings of France once even having lions and other animals .... it's possible a nobleman brought back a mean animal with him from Africa too and let it loose on the people. The movie had its own idea about how the beast evaded bullets.

Answer by drutigerman
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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this is sad.. all the wanna be experts, here... in a one on one fight, the pit would probably beat a wolf..in a kill to survive type of situation the wolf would fare much better than the pit.. i actually work with both pits and exotic animals.. have you ever seen a wolf fight? 2 wolves going at it? more biting and slashing instead of holding and shaking.. because most fights between wolves are more of a dominance show than anything.. then you have Territorial disputes which many times leads to the death of the trespassing wolf.. but the death is usually caused by several wolves if not the majority of the pack.. wolves are not very good one on one fighters.. sorry but it is true... also many people on here are laughable, like the person claiming pits were not the fighting dog of choice until the 70's.. they said that before that dobermans were the dog of choice.. all i have to say is, you need to come back from fantasy land..read this carefully... DOBERMANS WERE NEVER A CHOICE FIGHTING DOG.. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN PIT BULLS AND OTHER RELATED BREEDS.. geez... also to the tosa fan out there.. have you ever been to japan? my guess is no.. i say that because the majority of dog fighters in japan have switched to pit bull due to the fact that they were beating tosas in almost every match.. did you not hear about the $1,000,000 fight? about 10 years ago? tosa vs pit.. pit killed the tosa.. since then the shift has been towards pits... and to the american bulldog fan.. they have been tried to with some(but not much) success.. the pit usually wins against them to.. however many people have been crossing pits and american bull dogs, as well as recently trying out bandogges (bandogs) lately with a little success..it sounds like there are too many armchair experts and fish stories on here...i think dogfighting is a STUPID and childish sport.. but facts are facts. and there are very few facts on this board.. a few facts i have read here concern the the fact that there is no accurate way to test PSI on dog breeds, and the info about skull and muscle shape.. the rest was mostly bs...

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Haha! Dude, think about what you are saying? You aparently haven't read ANYTHING on this page! Don't learn much, do you? " wolves are not very good one on one fighters.. sorry but it is true... " The fact is that there have been no cases in the past year in which an encounter with a wolf by a dog resulted in the wolf being killed by the dog. Oh, I forgot...you work with both animals, right? Yea, yea. A self admitted expert. You can call the numbers in AK and WI. They pay for the pets that are killed by wolves...typically, "wolfkill" with dogs is one on one. They don't have to "pack" They only "pack" kill for large prey. They don't need it for a dog. MN has about 3,000 wolves and the state also has a problem with wolves killing dogs. MN has 350 packs, but there are many "lone" wolves that are looking for a mate or just "lone." Most of the man killers were "lone" wolves, although wolves rarely attack men. Many wolves also travel in pairs (mates). You know very little about dog fighting. The pit bull was a "come lately dog" and was bred to be smaller than the fighters. There is NO DOUBT about this. Not many people fight dogs, compared to say ... playing football. So, the ones that talk about it don't know anything about fighting. If they did, they would draw attention to themselves and get arrested. So, you have pit bull owners on the Internet telling everyone that pit bulls are tough. Haha! Yea, tough against small dogs and also tough against infants and older women ... give me a break with the tough pit bull stuff. Wolves typically eat about 20 deer a piece and only kill about every two to four days. Heard the expression, "Ravenous as a wolf?" A wolf can go three weeks without eating anything and still be healthy. The ones that come close to man and their dogs are almost always "lone" wolves. They concern the population, because if they will kill a dog, they might also harm a human. In this century, all wolves that have attacked humans and killed them were sick or very old. I don't know of any healthy pit bulls that have been able to kill a healthy male adult, do you? MN doesn't seem to report the number of dogs killed, but there are about 150 animals a year owned by farmers that are killed. There's a lot of talk about "fighting pit bulls" but generally, their fights don't result in death. The number one cause of wolf mortality is fighting other wolves in the pack. The second cause is fighting wolves in other packs. They fight and fight to the death in many cases .....

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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i am the guy who said the thing about the Doberman, and you wanna know where i received that so called 'fantasy information', it came from a book about pit bulls and how there are trained, myths about pit bulls, etc. and was a very large and in depth book about pit bulls on sale at Barnes and Noble. so it seems like one of us brought the facts my friend, you are giving opinion just like everyone else. you are right about one thing man, a lot of wolf fights are just shows of dominance and involve biting and slashing, but not nearly all of them. I have on video from Bob Landis who is a cinematogropher(spelling) in Yellowstone that has footage of wolves fighing where your so called shaking and holding. you can also read up on how people have seen wolves fighting and how they go about. like i have said, go to some websites such as www.forwolves.org, send the guy there a email and ask him the question about this, and he will answer it to the best of his knowledge. also you can read up on wolves there, and look at past instances of wolves killing each other and fighting involved As for the guy about in Wisconsin where the two pit bulls and wolves had a fight, i dont believe it. for one thing,, one pit bull cant beat one wolf, and definetely two pit bulls can beat up 7 wolves, they cant even beat up 7 german shepards for that matter. also, if the police and DNA took a record of it, you could find it and read up on it. we cant seem to do that.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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haha, byme says "searching the area they found two dead wolves and one severely injured and killed later.i know for a FACT the police and D.N.R. were notified. both his dogs are both alive and well today." That's NOT a fact. Dude, they publish the stats on wolf deaths. You are simply lying, "by me" Give me the number to the agency that reimburses people when wolves kill their animals in that state. As for the pit bull dominating fighting in Japan, that's also a lie. The pit bull loses nine of ten matches and generally, the owner of a pit bull would not even fight his dog against a Tosa, except for "audience" Only a moron would vote for the smaller pit bull. Here's an article from a magazine that is not trying to sell pit bulls: FIGHTING DOGS AND THE WORLD'S TOUGHEST BREED OF DOG MIXED MATCHED DOG FIGHTS. WHICH IS THE TOUGHEST BREED? by Mr. Jan Libourel, Editor of HANDGUNS MAGAZINE and Editor of TOSA Newsletter In issue #17 of FILATALK MAGAZINE, the claim appeared that the most deadly fighting dog in the world was a 30 pound Pit Bull Terrier. It was also stated that smaller Pit Bull dogs can get underneath a larger opponent and rip out its throat in short order. The claim was made that such a dog could kill "even the most powerful Fila". Right: Gabriel, a Fila Brasileiro at 215 lbs owned by Shoo-its Mountain Filas This seems most improbable. ��.. Moreover, the smaller Pits Bull are usually the gamest and the most talented. Thus, one of these little dogs can often defeat a substantially larger dog, especially if the other dog is not a Pit Bull. However, it should be noted that serious dog fighters are very careful to closely match weights in the most intensely contested matches. A difference of only a few pounds can count a lot in a dog fight. Moreover, the claim that a smaller dog has a great advantage by being able to get to the throat more readily becomes very silly on close examination. (Editors Tosa on right) By that logic, a Jack Russell Terrier should be able to defeat the small Pit Bull, and a Chihuahua should be able to kill the Jack Russell, thus establishing the Chihuahua as the most formidable dog of all! In point of fact, if a 30 pound Pit Bull went against a huge Fila like Gabriel, Jetson, Chaka, or Reno, the larger dog would crush the life out of the smaller dog long before the superior gameness or athletic ability of the Pit Bull came into play. Assuming the small Pit Bull did get a throat hold, it would most likely get nothing more than a mouthful of dewlap. Mixed matches between Pit Bulls and Tosas have produced �� In Japan, the Tosas defeat the Pit Bulls about 90 percent of the time��. Most Tosa breeders will have a story about how a dog from their bloodlines has killed or maimed a Pit Bull. It should be pointed out that there is a good deal of variation in the size and quality among both Tosas and Pit Bulls, the latter breed having suffered from the scourge of puppy mill breeding. In the case of a 140 pound Tosa of the finest East Japan fighting bloodlines against a 40 pound Pit Bull of indifferent breeding, I would have little doubt about the outcome. ��.. As a matter of interest, several years ago a correspondent to the old Bulldog Review Magazine . ��. One prominent Tosa breeder reported seeing four mixed matches in Hungary. In the second bout, a smallish, young female Tosa fought to a draw with a male Pit Bull that was nearly as large as herself. In the other two bouts, the Tosas decisively defeated the Pit Bulls. In one of these contests, the Pit Bull was seriously mangled, loosing an eye in the fight. In both fights, the Tosas became more dominant as the fight progressed. Evidently, the Pit Bulls had tired from wrestling with the larger dogs. The same breeder mentioned having seen two spontaneous, accidental fights between Tosa's and Fila's at American dog shows. In both cases the Tosas very much dominated the action while it lasted. Proceeding to some of the other mastiff type breeds, the American Bulldog varies considerably in size and temperament. They seem to be capable of fighting ferociously and capable for a short period of time and then losing interest quickly. My informant tells me of a mixed match which an American Bulldog punished an Argentine Dogo non stop for about 15 minutes and then quit when the Dogo finally fought back. I have also heard of a mixed match between a Tosa and an American Bulldog in which the Bulldog quickly jumped out of the ring to avoid further punishment. The Argentine Dogo was developed primarily as a hunting /pack dog. It does have some fighting breeds in its make up and can give a good account of itself in a scrap, but not on the same level as level as the "real fighting dogs". The Presa Canario has its origins as a fighting dog. Today, it is largely a reconstructed breed, with heavy infusions of English Mastiff and American Staffordshire Terrier. As a fighter, it is reported to be similar to the American Bulldog - furiously aggressive for the first few minutes of the fight but lacking in gameness and staying power. The Dogue de Bordeaux has not been used as a fighting dog for about a century. In a mixed match with the Tosa witnessed by my principle informant, the two dogs collided in the middle of the ring and the Tosa knocked the Dogue de Bordeaux cold. The Cane Corso looks like a fighting dog, but really isn�t. In functions, it is more akin to the Fila; being primarily an estate guardian and protector of livestock. Also like Fila, it is a good pack dog. One of the leading Cane breeders tells me that he has as many as seven male Canes playing together peaceably. The Fila should not be considered a fighting dog. It was never bred for that purpose. It should be pointed out that the specialized fighting dogs are often of limited utility for much else. Many, if not most, Pit Bulls are too friendly to make effective property protectors, and many of them are stolen themselves. A fair percentage of highly bred game Pit Bulls from the best fighting bloodlines are quite man-shy, and the same seems to be true with of Tosas, quite frequently, Other Pit Bulls and Tosas are very "waggy" in fact, for people whose primary interest in a dog is personal protection, I usually recommend the Fila over the Tosa, even though I dearly love my Tosa and am very partial to the latter breed. Sincerely Jan Liborel , Editor Handguns Magazine

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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One aspect of some cultures that has always taken time to adjust ... is the lying and exaggerating. For example ... most people haven't even been to a dog fight, and yet they will tell you how cruel the dog fight is...how the animals die and so on. The fact is that the dogs RARELY did in the dog fight. They generally aren't even severely injured, and this was true of the pit bull, an animal that became popular because of tenacity and being cheap to feed. Someone also commented here that the Pit Bull had taken over fighting in Japan. LIAR !! You have only to go to the dog fighting homepage and you can see...ALL the dogs in the finals are Tosa!!! They average about three times the weight of the pit. All Yokuzuna are Tosa!!! Typical Size Tosas for Traditional Fighting These are photographs of the type of Tosa Inu that is used for fighting. You will notice that they have medium sized bones, they have different skin color and have varying head sizes. These photographs were taken at the best tournament en the city of Kochi, Japan on September 2003 by Mr. Perozo. There were over 500 matches in this tournament.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Tosa Fighting Dog Center in Katsurahama on Shikoku Island 600 miles SW of Tokyo is the only center that has legal dog fighting in Japan now. The pit bull is not used to fight the Tosa � they get up to twice the weight of the pit bull. The exception is championship matches that must be earned by winning at Katsurhama. Last year, there were NO pit bulls in the Master�s. The match ends when the dog tries to flee. Contrary to the people here that have no idea about dog fighting, the American match was over then too �. Whenever any dog tries to flee or even TURNS � they must �scratch.� If they don�t scratch, the match is over. Just like that. The dogs sometimes have to be broken up, but they typically don�t use � break sticks� and pencils�they use flames. The Dog center cost more MILLIONS to build. One dog house, built for the emperor�s dogs, cost more than a million dollars. This is I contrast to the barns, backyards, and warehouses where American dogs are fought. The top dog has the honor of �Yokozuna.� The Tosa also cost about 70 dollars more a month to feed than the pit. The Tosa is becoming rare in Japan because it�s so expensive to feed. Many large breeds are that way�.they begin to disappear because of the cost to feed them. That�s mainly why many large breed disappear and that�s the reason for the down sized pit. Presa Canary dogs were used to kill pit bulls when the pit bull population was a problem on an island�the Presa is not used in fighting because it�s to expensive to maintain

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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I don't have to be a profit to know that you are a liar. Wolves are protected under federal law. Whenever a wolf dies, it must be recorded, both the manner of death, location, and so on. I know that no pit bull has killed a wolf. Now, the only reason the dog deaths are recorded in regard to wolves is because there are depredation laws that require compensation and a record of this. I am the one that should be angry. I don't like people that lie in order to support their position. Maybe you are used to lying to people that aren't familiar with hunting or federal laws protecting game. It doesn't excuse lying. That's the problem. There are people out there that don't even own pit bulls and only know what they hear in the toilet .. that educate others about pit bulls. It seems that many pit bull owners are low lifes with little education and many are poor. They exaggerate about their dogs and people believe it. I watched the discovery channel tonight. They said that the wolf had four times the bite of any dog.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Drutigerman, more lies ... you can't tell such a big lie without people knowing you are a liar!!! Drutigerman says, "have you ever been to japan? my guess is no.. i say that because the majority of dog fighters in japan have switched to pit bull due to the fact that they were beating tosas in almost every match.. did you not hear about the $1,000,000 fight? about 10 years ago? tosa vs pit.. pit killed the tosa.. since then the shift has been towards pits... " I don't know if you have been to Japan or not ... but I do know that either you are a complete liar or you have never seen a dog fight in Japan..which also makes you a liar. ALL the champion dogs in Japan are Tosa. In 500 matches, non of the victors were pit bull. The dog fighting center of Japan has pictures of the top level champions ... they are all Tosa. As for the "million dollar match" ... come on dude. Liar. Never happened. Why would someone pay a million dollars in a situation in which the favorite will win just about every time? And in the upper levels, they Tosa wins EVERY time. There are no pit bull champions. They do fight pit bulls in Asia, but in poorer countries where they can't afford the extra 70 dollars a month to feed the larger dog. They use the dogs for betting and they won't even fight a Tosa.

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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lol.. funny i have been working with both captive and wild wolves for over a decade, and you think you are going to give me behavior lessons based on a tape you saw or some book you read..LMAO.. i am not a wolf expert nor a self proclaimed expert, but i do know what i have seen with my own eyes, and the fact that almost everyone that works closely with wolves would tell you, which is they are not the best fighters... true you hear about wolves killing family pets.. a golden ret. is not a good fighter either... not much of a lesson there... you people are too funny... now to the pit/tosa discussion.. sorry but it is a fact, pits routinely beat tosas.. ever been to japan? i have, many times, i know many people there, they will tell you the same thing.. the only type of fighting that the tosa usually defeats the pit in is the old traditional raised florr fights.. where ANY vocalization causes a loss.. in the traditional style(cajun western etc) fights the pits wins the majority of the time.. the tosa usually give/break the fight.. see this is where i think you might be confused... a traditional fight has time limits, judges,and many other factors like a true game dog that wont quit, if it is being overpowered at anytime, is considered the loser, even if it has more stamina and willingness to fight.. even if would outlast and actually beat the stronger dog is not taken into consideration.. stronger dog winds by default..most tosa are winded 10-15 min into the fight, that is why they even have rules concerning the most winded dog.. lol yeah that would go over well in a cajun rules match... i guess you forgot this huh... in the western/cajun style fights the pits dominate the tosas... sorry but it is a fact of life.. btw i love the article what a bunch of BS.. lol presas were used to kill pits when the pit poulation was too large.. oh my god LMFAO if you buy that, i have some beachfront property in kansas for you... btw the article was also edited.... and the guy about the dobermans.. LOL you don't know much about dog fighting.. pits have pit mixes, staffy imports etc,, have always been the main breeds in dogfighting here in the U.S. dobermans.. lol , your book is lying to you... as for this quote, "The pit bull was a "come lately dog" and was bred to be smaller than the fighters." lol the pit bull was not bred to be smaller than the fighters... it was bred to be smaller than the dogs that engaged in things like bull and bear baiting, because the larger dogs were not as quick and they became exhausted to quickly in dog on dog matches... the pit bull came from crosses of old style bulldogs brought to the U.S. and dogs like the english white terrier(which is extinct) and the staffordshire bull terrier and other like breeds... by the time the pit was developed, the main fighting dogs were already small... so you point escapes me.. as i said before armchair experts

Answer by helloagain
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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i am not lieing,and i knew this person very well and have no reason to beleive he was lieing either. if by chance he was lieing, then i an wrong, anyways i didnt come here to argue, and i have to admit your more intelligent then most here and i agree with you on alot of points. heres the info i know to maybe help in search. it was around 1993 give or take a year. it happened in clark co. about 8 miles outside neillsville on granton rd. also, the address and phone numbers you gave for the d.n.r. is only a regional headqaurters, the main headqaurters is in madison. i dont have the info. and i really dont care to look it up, but you can if you want too. also im not sure but i think the state police wouldn't have anything to do with this, they are more into highway patrol.like i said i dont want to argue so this will be last post. good luck to ya.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Haha tiger cat! and your other alias! Tigercat said, "ever been to japan? i have, many times, i know many people there, they will tell you the same thing.. the only type of fighting that the tosa usually defeats the pit in is the old traditional raised florr fights.. where ANY vocalization causes a loss.. " Actually, I LIVED in Japan a large part of my life. You have never been there or you didn't go anywhere. You also don't know anything about dog fighting in the USA. Dogs rarely die...and the pit never beats the Tosa .. oh, you said you knew a lot of people in Japan? Haha! Well, call the city number and ask them about legal fighting events .. there's ONE type of fighting in Japan! Tourist Information Center Tel: (0888) 82-7777 Everyone call so that these liars can be seen for what they are ... probably kids. They don't give us any information...just that they are experts and have a bunch of wolves and dogs. They make mistakes when they lie about dogs killing wolves. It doesn't happen.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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You don't pay attention to what you read or maybe you don't read it. I said the Tosas are the only ones to reach the finals. All the top rungs are held by Tosas. The pit bulls don't make noise when they are fighting either. If you knew about pit bulls, you would know this. They even "bow" sometimes before attacking. Most dogs do this to play. They will wag their tails while in a death grip. Hanging on and shaking is not fighting and it's broken up by the pit master. One characteristic of pit bulls that make them dangerous is their silent attack. They might even wag their tails and attack without barking. They are trained to do this because barking only "weakens" them and is used to "warn" others. Most dog fighters in the US "burn their box" so that they can't make sounds that detract from betting and attract attention. "Bill concerning pit bulls proposed" Columbus, OH. March 14� Pit bulls and other dogs that have bitten people .... are considered vicious ......trend has some state lawmakers even more concerned. "Today at the state house a bill that would outlaw the practice of de-barking vicious dogs was the focus of intense discussion. De-barking is accomplished by destroying the vocal cords in these animals, either by severing them during a controlled surgery or in more crude backyard procedures that may include ramming a red hot steel rod down the dogs throat that sear the voice box and silence the dogs forever. According to supporters of the bill, the procedure only succeeds in turning them into silent killers. The bills sponsor, Republican Bill Olman says dog fighting and the illegal drug trade is fueling the spread of these silenced and dangerous dogs. The bill also has the support of the Ohio Veterinarian Medical Association. The support came after language was added that would limit liability to vets who silence dogs that are not considered vicious."

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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I suggest you call the number I gave. They have ALL reported wolf deaths and have kept them for twenty years. They know NOTHING of what you are talking about!!! It was a complete lie, but now you are saying that someone just told you....your story has changed. Most wolves die from being killed by other wolves. They constantly test their status. The average wolf lives only four years in the wild. In American dog fights, Cajun rules ... At the fight, the rules are posted inside the entrance. The heading says something such as, "The Gamer of Two Dogs, Ready and Willing" Both owners mutually decide upon a referee. You must have a corner man that basically washes the other owner's dog. He also remains as an observer. They use breaking sticks and pencils to separate the dogs in the US, just as they did in England and it's official rules...do you know how they separate them in Japan? Probably not. As in Japan, any dog that jumps the pit loses without scratches being necessary. The dog also does not have to scratch for a dead dog...the living dog is the winner. In the USA, the first dog to turn must scratch first. To be a fair turn, the dog turning must turn his head, shoulders and front feet away from the opponent and regardless of whether or not the dogs are otherwise touching. If there is a turn, the owners must pick their dogs up "free of holds" .... if they are not free of holds, they must be placed back upon the ground and separated, then picked up again. The referee then notifies the handlers which dog must scratch. After about 25 seconds, the timer calls "Get ready" The handlers stand with the dogs between their legs. The handler's toe must be on the scratch line and after five more seconds, the timer yells, "Let Go." The handler of the scratching dog must immediately release all contact with the animal. The scratching dog must then go immediately to the opponent. He can crawl or drag himself .. he doesn't have to go straight, but he can't stop at all or he is out. The other owner can let go his dog any time he wants, but usually he will hold him if the other dog is wounded and crawling. There is no time limit, but if the scratched dog does not make contact, the other dog wins. There's no reason to let him go at this point, especially since he might have won and releasing the unscratched dog will only provoke the fight. This can be some of the worst moments ... I have never seen this, but I have heard that some very injured dogs will drag themselves across the canvas to the scratch line. However, the handler would stop the fight. Most dog fighters are not rich. They fight for money and they make bets. In Japan, the dogs often have billionaire owners from the Middle East or other areas of the world. They have placement just as they do for Sumo, and there are different rungs for the dogs, with the Yokozuna being the top. There were some pits a few years ago at the bottom rungs, but none made the finals. In this case, the dogs are fought to fight. In the USA, the dogs are only fought that are similar weight. If you have a really big pit, you might not find a match. also, they don't like to fight other mean breeds, especially if they are big dogs. There's a rule that the owners must agree upon before the match, and this is "time out" If the dogs don't fight after 30 seconds, the dog loses. Otherwise, he has forever. Also in the rules, because this happens...sometimes, the dogs just stop fighting. Maybe they are tired or who knows? At this point, the ref can call for scratch out to win and the time keeper notes the time and records the event. The rules are posted because money is always bet .. and losers can become quit violent. There are crowd control within the area that immediately goes for the owner that causes trouble or the gambler. In poor areas of Asia, men with instruments similar to hammers will begin breaking bones of anyone that gets out of line. Sometimes, they must kill a dog too, but this is rare. All rules say that nothing can be passed inside the pit to a handler ... the handler's dog automatically loses. The main fights occur when a handler steps across the scratch line before the dog. This results in a loss. The handler cannot speak to the dog or kick the floor either. If he does, the dog loses. You can't touch the other dog or touch your dog unless the command to "handle" is given. The dog doesn't bite people because it also disqualifies him. Any real fighter that bites in the pit is "culled" because it causes loss. In some parts of Asia, the dog is immediately "hammered." In the USA, you must remove your dog forever. At any rate, the rules of engagement are very similar in Japan and the USA. It doesn't serve any purpose to fight to the death. Long before the dog is dead, you know who will win and who will lose. It's this stupid understanding that creates the false impression that all dog fights are brutal and bloody. The owners are often this way. Most of the dogs can't even bark. Now, street fighting in LA or NY is different. Often, the dogs have questionable parentage and they are poorly fed and trained. The fights can be loud and often the loser is a real loser. These dogs could not fight real fighters.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Hey Tigercat...you don't know the rules. It's true that many matches don't have time limits (unless agreed upon as mentioned earlier) but once a dog turns the fight ends quickly. He is totally at the mercy of the other dog. You don't seem to have common sense here. It's like in boxing ... the match is stopped immediately if the boxer doesn't respond or doesn't raise his hands to protect himself. If the fight isn't stopped, the boxer will be dead before he hits the ground. So, do you fight? Do you think that a guy that turns his head and tries to get away has "game?" He knows he's losing and if the other fighter punches him in the back of the head or hooks him to the side, the boxer not responding can die immediately. It's not so much that you don't know what you are talking about ... you don't have common sense at all and you have no sense about fighting!!! The fight lasts when both dogs continue defending themselves and being the aggressor. Even a girl knows this!!! What are you thinking? So, the dog that turns .. has more game and if the fight goes on ... he will win? Hahah!!! You should be ashamed. In Cajun rules, the dogs are separated and the turning dog must scratch. If he doesn't the match is over. That's no different than in Japan.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Haha! The dog won't survive the wolf fight. I would think nothing of fighting a pit bull .... I would not like fighting a wolf. Animals are funny. Sometimes, size means a lot. I thought for most of my life that a tiger would kill a lion in a fight ... the tiger can be much bigger and the Siberian can be twice as big as an African lion. However, I read more about the Roman times and learned that they didn't even pit lions and tigers against each other because the lion always won ... that huge main protected him from harm and attack on the neck. The pit bull's loose skin protects him some ... they will bite and puncture each other, but it's hard to grab something vital. Pit bulls can't even get hold of a Tosa's vitals because the skin is so loose. I can pull the skin on the back up at least a foot. It's amazing. Dog fighting was a way of life in some states, such as Louisiana. Betting has always been the life stay and what dog fighting was about here in the US. It was different in Japan. Here's an actual dog fight ... one of the most famous fights ever. They were small dogs, small because it's cheap to raise them and their owners are poor. Bets are made and the odds change as the dogs fight. "Cadillac Kennels" "Classic Contests" April 28, 1968 - "Jack Smith" vs "Floyd Boudreaux" - Males 38lbs. Cajun Rules "Howard Teel" Referee and "Pete Sparks" Timekeeper Jack is using a red and white dog called "Bozo", said to have been bought by Sonny Sykes from Jerome Hernandez. Floyd is using a black which he calls "Eli". Eli gets the first hold as Bozo gets skin hold in throat. Eli is getting into the throat of Bozo as Bozo works an ear trying for a shoulder, $50 dollars to $25 dollar bets being made. Bozo the favorite. Eli is showing good and working for Bozo's throat. $500 dollars to $250 dollars being offered. All the dog fighting in this previous match is being wraped up in 10 minutes of this fight. Eli gets in Bozo's throat at 14,then Bozo throws one leg over Eli's shoulder, gets a ear and throws Eli. Bozo gets a shoulder and shakes and Eli gets a mouth hold and gets him off. Eli up at 15, and into throat. Eli comes up and the bets shift to even more as both dogs working shoulders and front legs. Bozo gets a nose and shakes at 21. Changes to the hind legs, gets stifle and shakes. Bozo is working the front legs. Back to mouth fighting at the 25 minute mark. Bets getting hard to get at even money as first one then the other gets on top and gets nose and mouth. Eli acts as though he has shot his wad. Bozo, has opened up Eli's front leg and Eli is weakening. The story is, that Eli has heart worms. At the 38 minute mark, a pickup. Bozo to scratch. Made determined scratch, and gets a front leg, and Eli goes into Bozo's neck. At the 40 minute mark another a pickup is made, Eli scratches hard. Bozo gets nape of neck and Eli goes down. At the 45 minute mark Kenneth Chandler says, if the little black dog don't win, his children will go hungry for a week. At the 54 minute mark, another pick up was made with Bozo to scratch, and he made a very determined scratch. At the 57 minute mark another pick up was made with Eli to scratch, he trotted over and took an ear hold and Bozo goes down. Bozo makes a good scratch at the one hour mark. One minute later, Eli makes a good scratch and Smith gives up the fight. Eli is the winner in one hour one minute.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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The Cadillac Kennels are located in Springfield IL and still sell the equipment used to fight dogs, including rule books and so on. You can trace the evolution of dog fighting from the dog fight minutes ... for example, gambling was reduced "publically" in 1976 and so the gambling was less reported in the minutes, but was just as intense. It was hidden. MOST of the fight records are for Louisiana fights, many in Kenner (outside New Orleans). The fine was about 150 dollars for fighting. By the way, "stifle" is the knee of the dog. At any rate, anyone that seriously believes that small 38 pound dogs are world beaters and can kill wolves is crazy....or maybe they just lack any common sense at all and they have no world experience!

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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umm you are laughable.. if you did actually live in japan, which it is obvious you didn't(or you did as a small child) you would know there are 2 i repeat 2 types of dog fighting in japan.. lol you need to do some research before calling anyone a liar.. western style dog fighting as been going on in japan for around 40 years and has grown in popularity.. let me say it slow for you... traditional Japanese dogfighting is not done in a pit, it is done on a raised floor kind of like the octagon in UFC.. it has 3 judges, and time limits.. usually between 15 minutes and 30 minutes.. in Okinawa it is usually a bit longer 30-45 min.. there are rules against any sound(growling yelping whining etc) there are also rules concerning dogs being exhausted.. there are also rules concerning the domination of a fight.. as i mentioned before... try and keep up... in western style of cajun rules fighting there IS NO TIME LIMIT.. the dogs are washed by the other handlers/owner (if the owner is allowed in the ring, varies from country to country..)the dogs are turned and faced and let go.. they fight.. if it becomes a stale mate of if one dog is clearly dominating the other the dogs are separated(usually when free of holds, but they can be broken, then they are scratched.. with the loosing dog let go first to see if it will scratch or cross.. etc etc etc.. sorry this is the brief explanation.. most of the time there are no deaths in a fight.. unless you count the new wanna be dog fighters, that simply let dogs fight.. but we wont count them. and yes pits are normally silent when they fight(or they whine an excited type of whine).. "So, the dog that turns .. has more game and if the fight goes on ... he will win? Hahah!!!" are you retarded.. i never said that.. try reading actual words.. i said that in traditional japanese fighting if a dog is being dominated, even if it is game and does NOT QUIT FIGHTING it is considered the looser... try and keep up.. in cajun rules the dog would be scratched. you are proving how little you know everytime you post.. you obviously dont know anything about fighting in japan... here is a quick lesson for you. The traditional match: Held in a raised platform shaped as an Octagon. These usually have a time limit of 30 minutes but with some locations like Okinawa have longer time limits at 40 minutes. The time limit is in place so that they allow the number of dogs that are entered at a tournament to take place at a steady pace. Additionally, only males are usually allowed to fight in the tournaments. In this type of match there are 3 judges that rule and sit on top of the ring, the owners are not allowed to be in the ring and must direct their dogs from the top of the ring and are not allowed to touch the dogs at any time. Once the dogs are released and after the first min. or two, all growling or vocalization from the dogs must cease.The first dog that starts to whine, cry, growl, bark, etc..(Seri) is the loser. Also the dog that starts to turn away from it's opponent (3 steps to be exact) (Hashiri) is also the loser, jumping the ring or attempts to leave the fight is also the loser. Basically, the rules are set in place that a dog with questionable braveness has all the opportunity to leave the fight to determine the braver of the two. A dog that does not show any signs of quitting could lose if he is simply overpowered and it becomes a one way fight. When the duration of the bout gets longer, and both opponents start to become winded, a winner can be determined by the dog that is in holds and the loser that is out of holds for a length of time. (Osaekomi) If both dogs are winded and out of holds, the dog that is standing at the 3 minute time limit will be the winner.If both dogs are still fighting and in holds at the 30 minute mark then it will be a tie. At the 30 minute mark, if one of the dogs is out of holds, or lying down and the other one is relentlessly attacking, then the one still fighting will be the winner. but i'msure you already knew all of that right? LOL..

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Loser! Again, I have posted the number in Japan. What you are saying is a total lie. NO PIT BULLS reach the finals. It has NOTHING to do with make noise, idiot. The owners silence them surgically. You really think that someone would fight dogs and allow the dog to lose because he barked? Hahah! No, the owner would eliminate this possibility. The fight is not stopped unless one of the dogs turn. They don't stop it because he is losing. Common sense would tell you this. There's still a lot of blood on the canvas. You can talk all you want and tell us what an expert you are, but you have nothing to support what you say. There is only one type of fighting in Japan. It is different from the US, mainly in that they sometimes fight dogs that are unmatched in size. You will find American dog matches always pit the dog to the pound. The records indicate this. Many that fight in the US are low lifes that are impoverished. The use the bull dog because it is small and cheap. The money is from gambling. Everyone in dog fighting knows this, and they are honest about it overseas. You ignore reality, logic, common sense, and experience from people that are really familiar with what's going on. Too bad for you. Your stuff about being a "one way fight" is a total lie. In Japan, the dogs often become bloody and they don't stop the fight until one of the dogs has turned. It's the same way in the US. There are fights in Japan where the dog gives up quickly, but that happens in the US too. Sometimes, the dogs just don't fight at all. I don't think you even know what "scratching" means! You have nothing to support your contentions. They are just ideas in your mind.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Someone showed me the webpage where you got your information about dog fighting. This is older and things have changed there. The article clearly mentions that the dog fighting is divided into weights...the smaller dog can fight larger dogs if they wish, but there's not much chance of them winning. The smallest Tosa is bigger than the biggest pit. However, when they do over lap, the Tosa almost always wins. For the first rung, the dog has no weight limits ... a smaller pit does not stand a chance and so no pit bull makes it to the top rung. All dog fighting in Japan falls under one authority and is closely monitored. The "second" type of fighting is not really different and is under the same authority. It's just designed for pit bulls because they can't compete in the other category. It has nothing to do with barking because most of them can't bark (surgical reasons). The problem in this country is that people often believe absurd stories about other countries and cultures. They also tend to exaggerate .... and the pit bull is the biggest exaggeration. It's just a small dog and it can beat other small dogs in some cases...but it certainly would not be pitted against a big dog. If it did, it would standa chance. The Tosa is so expensive to feed and maintain that there are few of them left in Japan. They are too friendly to be guard dogs, but they can fight if they need to be and are protective of people...but not of property. The pit bull is ... just as it seems. It's a small dog that was bred to be inexpensive. It's the poor man's fighting dog and nothing more.

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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ok it is obvious now.... you have NO IDEA about dogs period... you don't have a clue about pit bulls, tosas, dogfighting in japan, or just about anything else.. your last two posts PROVE IT.. you are only making yourself look bad... i have looked around these forums and there are VERY FEW people here that know anything about daogs, and you my friend are not one of them... you are really beginning to look like a wanna be... sorry, but it is true... even your stats in your last post are wrong... pit bulls do not even place in the top 5 concerning dog attacks in the U.S. and you messed up the fatality rate.. pits and rotties make up roughly 54% of all fatalities in the country.. even at that fatalities make up less than one tenth of one percent of all attacks.. "They can blame it on the owner, but the fact remains that these dogs will kill children and the elderly." ha ha ha... wanna be... lol you do know that pit bulls have one of the highest passing rates from the ACTTA right.. higher than labs, goldens etc.. lol i say again you are clueless.

Answer by youverystupidpeople
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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Wow its a crazy in here, I wonder if you had a pit and great white shark fight, and the pit had flippers and the shark had legs that would make for a good match that all the Japanese and Americans would come from all over the world to see. Everybody is so one sided in here. You know what? that is what a seal is its a damn dog with flippers oh and sharks hunt seals ok game over. Man firedragon you seem to know what you are talking about and you along with Tigereye see to be regurgitating the same old crap. Could either of you post a web site (keep in mind the web site has to be legit) with information on these dog fights and all these matches, you know for us more ignorant people about dog fighting and all the tiny aspects that go into it. Cause both of you as well as anyone eles in here can talk your side until you are blue in the face and your fingers are blistered from typing so many damn posts, but stating your side is pointless unless you give us some easy access real information,cause most of the people in here are just not gonna call the wild life reserves, or talk to some dude in japan with bad English if any at all. The point i am getting at is lets make alot of believers out of you two and give us some real proof with pictures and websites supporting this sport.If not all of what you are saying could be just an elaborate lie.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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that was a funny comment about the pit bull having flippers and fighting a great white shark. also PITBULLOWNER, very few wolves ever get as big as 180, even though some have. females average aroung 80-90 pounds, some smaller, some bigger, the biggest female wolf that was radio collared in yellowstone was 116 pounds. Males usually range between 110 to 130 pounds. The largest male in yellowstone that has been radio collared(which means some could be bigger or smaller) was 141 pounds. This is from the book Yellowstone Wolves of the Wild. try to find it, the author is James Halfpenny. i have read that little more than rarely you see wolves get up to 175 pounds in alaska and canada. the largest wolf ever i believe was 207 or 220 something. am not sure, but it was in the 200's.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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first of all pits do not deserve there reputation like you say. they make up alot more than just 1% of dog population.i bet at least half the pits are not even registered because of laws. second, bite statistics lumps 7 breeds into the pitbull category. they consider the term "pitbull" to refer to any muscular broad jawed dog that slightly resembles the a.p.b.t. and out of those 7 breeds the factually apbt is last on the list for bites.out of the hundred and some breeds tested in temperament tests the pitbull ranks 4th highest for best temperament. you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know.

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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HEY!! Pit bull owner, go climb East face Monitor Peak in Colorado. If you make it back, spout off more foolishness. My hands are above average strength from roping up and down peaks. I placed 4 pound kitten in tub to rid from fleas. Domestic cats hate baths. The little fellow was so powerful, it took ALL my strength in both hands to restrain him. What amount of strength does a 180 lb cougar have? Almost HUNDREDSx that little cat. He can sustain 40 foot leap down from tree. He can do 15 foot vertical leap from dead stop. He can raise 350lb calf with only neck muscles. You laugh when I say a pit bull must fear his slash. God save your bully dog from great cougar. Next go to Brazil and intro your poor dog to Jaguar, the cat who crushes skulls with one bite. This cat can make deep punctures into BOWLING BALLS. Now we wait to hear, pit bulls are training by taking swimming lessons in vats of MOLTEN STEEL! GARBAGE from pit owners!!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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Haha! Loser! I didn't say anything about simple dog ATTACKS. I have been attacked by many dogs and never hurt. There are millions of attacks every year. What concerns me are the DEATHS and SERIOUS injuries. That's why they banned them. MOST of their victims are children under the age of five ... yea, a tough dog. 70 percent are children. Here is what tigercats said, "pit bulls do not even place in the top 5 concerning dog attacks in the U.S. and you messed up the fatality rate.. pits and rotties make up roughly 54% of all fatalities in the country.. even at that fatalities make up less than one tenth of one percent of all attacks.. " You have not cited any sources. I have given numbers to check. There is only ONE dog fighting center in Japan. Anyone here can call that number to confirm it. As for the deaths, the year most cities began banning pit bulls, in 1988, pit bulls accounted for 62% of the deaths�..see below. Pit bull fatal attacks upon humans dropped significantly after the bans � this is after the percentage had been climbing. Over all, during the THREE decades or so, the dog probably averaged a fraction of a percentage of the total dogs and still averaged 1/3 of deaths. The Rot passed the pit after the pit was banned. You must be a kid and have no idea about any type of fighting. Even in the US, they don't it 30 pound dogs with 40 pound dogs. I have the website where you COPIED most of your information. It plainly says that Tosa are too big to fight pit bulls. The fact is that a smaller dog can fight a larger dog in a challenge, but the larger dog cannot challenge the smaller dog. The pit bull never makes the finals. Only the largest pit bull wins against the smallest Tosa, and even then...only some of the time. Pit bulls accounted for over half the deaths in many of the urban areas.....pit bulls do not make good watch dogs and are not powerful enough to kill most adults. So, 70 percent of pit bulls fatally attacking humans involved children. The bigger dogs are often involved in security or maintaining property. THE MAJORITY OF PIT BULLS ARE NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO KILL A HEALTHY ADULT HUMAN..So, the larger and more powerful breeds generally killed adults I have already posted the percentage of children killed by pits. The thing here is that it doesn't matter what the reason. A very small part of the dog population is responsible for a huge percentage of the deaths. Pits by the 1980 were banned by most cities and so Rots took over as being the number one killer. HUMAN FATALITIES FROM PIT BULLS GREW TO 62% IN 1988. At this time, many cities banned pit bulls, and the deaths from pit bulls dropped. ABSTRACT Dog bite-related fatalities from 1979 through 1988. Sacks JJ, Sattin RW, Bonzo SE JAMA 1989 Sep 15;262(11):1489-92 http://www.dogexpert.com/Literature/Sacks(2).html By combining data from the National Center for Health Statistics and computerized searching of news stories, we identified 157 dog bite-related fatalities that occurred in the United States from 1979 through 1988. Of the 157 deaths, 70% occurred among children who were less than 10 years of age. The death rate for neonates was almost 370 times that of adults who were 30 to 49 years of age. Pit bull breeds were involved in 42 (41.6%) of 101 deaths where dog breed was reported, almost three times more than German shepherds, the next most commonly reported breed. The proportion of deaths attributable to pit bulls increased from 20% in 1979 and 1980 to 62% in 1987 and 1988.

Answer by Dennis Watson
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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Tigercat, as you can see, took his "knowledge" of the Tosa and dog fighting ... literally word from word ... from this website. Except he lied and left out that only the smallest Tosa can fight the largest pits and the small Tosa wins .. not always, but remember ... a small Tosa dwarf generally has something wrong with it, as do all dogs that are abnormally small. They are not as strong per pound and lack other characteristics. The "two" type of fighting in Japan involve the inferior pit bull, a small but scrappy dog that cannot compete with the Tosa. A smaller dog can challenge a larger dog, but rarely wins and in the case of the pit ... never wins against the larger Tosa. Out of five hundred championship matches, none of the pits made the finals. In Japan, he's a scrappy little dog and very cheap to keep. The larger Tosa is losing it's place because it is so expensive. Most pit bull owners are as stupid as dirt. They won't accept that pit bulls are dangerous around children...in Japan, they won't have even large dogs around children, no matter what their disposition. Pit bulls have the potential to kill .. which the owners won't accept. Before they were banned, they accounted for 62 percent of the deaths. There are few pit bulls in the US compared to other dogs. Of course, there are people here that go by their own minds. They are an example of being as stupid as dirt. They can't suppport anything that they say. No one in Japan seriously believes that a pit would stand a chance against any Tosa except the unhealthy runt of the litter. Pit bull owners feel inadequate or maybe isolated from society. They often buy the dog because they know little of animals and think the pit bull can beat any animal, maybe even the lion. You commonly see the page where they claim pit bulls were used in the past to kill bears and lions....the actuality is that they were not good hunting dogs and were killed quickly because they could not keep the animal at bay or avoid the claws ....Filas sell for about $3,000 to $4500 ... when trained. They are used by the military to sniff snipers. German pointing dogs are great too. English setters are the most popular. These are kick ass dogs that can keep their distance from dangerous animals and let you know they are there. They give you time to get there too. Is anyone really afraid of the 38 pound pit? The Tosa in unlimited class can weigh more than 200 pounds. Male wolves weigh about 140 to 200, depending upon where you find them and their breed. Oh, the Hunting Society is a great place to find out about hunting dogs. You pit bull types can tell them why hunters should use pit bulls .. the hunter won't even have to use his rifle. The dog will kill the bear! You can also call 450-347-8979 to find out about advantages of real dogs....for hunting. Tell them "the dragon" sent you. They will give you a discount!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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Anyway, most of what you hear about dog fighting is the worst case. Most of the dog owners did not want to lose their dogs and would only keep a dog in a fight if there was a chance of winning. The Japanese used dogs that were so powerful, they were frightening, but these dogs are too expensive to maintain; and advantage is that they were so difficult to fatally injure that few died in fights. It was not common in the US and was very uncommon in Japan. The pit is a poor man's dog. They are cheap, often free in litters. They were banned in many cities, but people still got them to fight. Death generally occurs when you have two dogs that are very mismatched ... in size or ability ... and the damage is done before the handlers can break them. The rules in Japan and here are very similar, but the fight ends more easily here because the dog need simply turn. In Japan, they have to step three steps and that's a lot. Here the dog only need to turn his head and shoulders away. He doesn't have to step anywhere. Dogs are like humans. Short, muscular or squat humans tire much more quickly than taller lean humans. There are reasons for this, but I won't go into it. The endurance of a Tosa is superior to that of a pit. It's stronger, much stronger. It has bigger teeth and ... the skin is so loose that the pit can't injure the dog. It would be hard finding a Tosa small enough to fight a pit, but when you find such a dog, the Tosa does very well. Most of the pit owners I have met are idiots. They have unreal expectations of their dogs. They don't buy them because they are friendly or lovable. They buy them because they think they are deadly. It's the dog of choice for people that hate society or have issues with others. Sometimes, these owners feel isolated or alone and what something that will give them security. So, the pit goes to these strange personalities. In most urban areas, they are illegal and so it takes a strange personality...one willing to break the law ... to own one. And, as the people that take drugs, they will never admit there are problems!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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NICKNAME .... dude, think about what you are saying. You must be the proud owner of a pit bull or a pit bull owner wanna bee !! Haha! You contradict yourself. First, you say that there are a lot more than 1% and then you say that they count every dog that even looks like a dog a pit bull!!! Haha!! So, are they OVER represented or UNDER ??? you are just talking!!! Haha! Just saying anything that comes into your head! And your source of information ... because you contradict the American Kennel Club, the CDC and other agencies ...haha! As for temperment...what does that have to do with anything? They were responsible for most of the deaths in the US from dog bites before they were banned!!!! I don't know you, but you must be ... some kind of genius!!@ Yea, a real smart dude!! Haha! So, a dog that is about 1% of the population accounts for the MAJORITY of deaths from bites before it was banned ... but you say it has a good temperment and won some kind of award!! Haha! You sound like...OJ Simpson! He won an award too! But I wouldn't want to live next door to him and have my sister date him!!! Haha! NICKNAME said, "first of all pits do not deserve there reputation like you say. they make up alot more than just 1% of dog population.i bet at least half the pits are not even registered because of laws. second, bite statistics lumps 7 breeds into the pitbull category. they consider the term "pitbull" to refer to any muscular broad jawed dog that slightly resembles the a.p.b.t. and out of those 7 breeds the factually apbt is last on the list for bites.out of the hundred and some breeds tested in temperament tests the pitbull ranks 4th highest for best temperament. you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know."

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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Haha!! NICKNAME SAID, "you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know." Hey, I don't want to discourage you, dude...but what do you know, exactly? I am trying to figure this out! Better check what facts? I knew them. I just put a few references up. Now you know too. I know that in your mind, you know a lot...and you probably tell yourself this. But, why don't you just try to find the facts and stop letting your emotions run your life? I know how bad you want to think that a pit bull can kill an elephant, but it can't. Wishing you knew a lot doesn't mean you know...you've got to get experience and study some. I might also add ... that I inherited the Fila from an uncle. I can't afford a dog of more than about 1200 dollars .... or so I tell myself. Tosas cost MANY thousands, they are more expensive than Filas....a fighting champ can be tens of thousands. My African hunting dog was a gift a few years ago. I think it's hard to beat the English Pointing dog because they know how to bay and they know how to stay away from claws and teeth.

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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LMAO... you obviously are a wanna be.. by the way my ost that was coppied.. is on about 20 different sites.. lol also you mention the dogfighting center in japan.. so i am guessing you mean the joke of japan the kochi dogfighting center... it is considered a joke by people like sudo san and his son.. you do know who they are right? probably not so go look it up and come back... check out the CDC, ACTTA for you statistics concerning bites.. you are the biggest wanna be i have ever seen... you obviously have NEVER been to japan, nor have a clue about it... and you BS about pits is laughable at best... my guess is you have only seen a tosa and a fila in pictures.... or your daddy owns one and it is your pride talking, because it sure isn't your knowledge posting here... you are a joke my friend.. that's about it... the more you talk the more it shows how LITTLE you know... the kochi center is considered a tourist attraction by the majority of dogmen in japan... but you knew that too right? lol speaking of tosas do you know the people at stonewall kennels.. they are one of the most respected tosa kennels in the U.S. and the majority of japanese fighters respect their dogs too.. ALL of their line dogs come from the top kennels in japan.. so have you heard of them? probably not, so look them up too... when you get done with your research come back then we will talk....

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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Haha! Sounds like one loser using more than one name. So, I have supported everything I have said. What you say is not even supported by common sense. Your knowledge comes from your head. You can deny the facts all you want ... but you are a liar. The homepage you took the information about dog fighting in Japan said Pit Bulls are in the low weight classes and even the smallest of Tosas are too big to fight the big pit bulls. So, only the runts can fight them and the Tosas usually win! Loser! Haha! You are not too knowledgeable and it's obvious from what you write. Haha! Stonewall kennels!! Call the number I guess in Japan with the tourist bureau .. they haven't even heard of Stonewall Kennels! There aren't ANY Tosa breeders in the US that are respected in Japan. Stonewall is one of the hundreds of Kennels that raise pits ... haha! Idiot! Their number is Stonewall Kennels: 413-527-8851 Give them a call bozoo! Haha! Loser~~!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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I wonder if Stonewall Kennels is in trouble for something. They are the only Stonewall Kennels in the US that were listed in my AKA book. Do you have another phone number? They sell German Shepherds and have stopped selling pits. They mostly board animals. In fact � it�s possible there might be some problems with abuse. You can check it out here: Robin Carlin, DVM: 413-268-8387 Stonewall Kennels: 413-527-8851 MSPCA: Sgt LeBlond 413-781-3231 Call Sgt LeBlond at this number �.or talk to anyone. I think you are mentally insane. There�s a difference between debate and lying to back up your weak argument. Ever heard the expression, �Do you always have to be right?� Most likely, you use this expression on others. It�s actually for someone that is wrong and insists they are right, even when there is no evidence. They become so crazy, they start to lie �they believe absurd ideas and become sometimes even violent when they are confronted or challenged. You didn�t even read the posts. I posted the article from Journal of the American Medical Association .. this was cited in the CDC article and is the same information. Except that the dates, over a twenty year period, don�t reflect what was happening. You are a liar. I suspect that you write under a couple names � there�s a difference from having bad information and lying�such as when someone says they have personal knowledge of something and it�s just a lie. I read plenty of false information. But when I hear the truth, I can accept it. I can easily surrender ideas based upon false information. You have presented no credible support. You have lied and you even use .. Kennels that don�t even claim to have Tosas. Liar! Maybe you are that pit bull woman that was arrested there. I don�t know. At any rate, I think you are insane.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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Haha! Idiot. This is a total lie! In Japan, any breed can fight to the top rung, and no pit bull has ever been there. They could make a lot more than a million dollars. Show this website or where you got this information! Liar! Dude liar said, "At any given period, in any given year, there is always a catchweight pit usually in the 60-65lb range that is "open to the world" This dog represents the ultimate pinnacle of dog fighting capabilities. That is to say, any one, with any dog, wild or domesticated of any breed, from any country in the world, of any size is welcome to bring between $50 to $100K. Never has any other dog breed other than another Pit shown up. "

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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"There is no specific breed of dog called a "pit bull". The term refers to a group of dogs developed a for competitive dog fighting. Fighting Mastiffs were described by Caesar after his invasion of Britain in 55 BC and various types were developed in ancient Rome, China and Japan. As long as humans have raised dogs, we have raised protection and fighting dogs. The breeds include bull dogs, terriers and mastiffs. Bull dogs were developed as "catch dogs", dogs used to hold animals for a hunter or butcher to prepare food. Terriers were developed to find and kill vermin and fur bearing animals for hunters and property owners. Mastiffs were developed to protect property and warn off poachers. Eventually, "catch dogs" were no longer useful and bull dogs were routinely crossed with terriers to develop a family pet that would also be agile and tough enough to be protective without being too large. " http://www.pethelp.net/pits.html In Japan, a smaller dog CAN CHALLENGE a larger dog, but the pit never wins. No ever. In 500 championship matches, none were pit bulls. The pit bull was bred so that there would be a smaller dog, not tougher! EVeryone knows this that is not a fool. Japan's fearsome fighting Tosa losing out to chihuahuas, sausage dogs Utusan Express, 5 Apr 2004 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KOCHI (Japan) - The Tosa, Japan's fearsome fighting dog, is at risk of bowing out in its native land due to high maintenance costs of the carnivorous canine, declining interest in dogfights and a latter-day preference for cute miniature breeds like the chihuahua. This southwestern coastal city has long been a mecca for dogfighting, and as such was the birthplace of the breed that bears its former name, Tosa, bred almost a century ago to be the ideal fighter. The cross-bred creature is immensely powerful with a large head and muscular, broad-chested body. On average it weighs more than 80 kilogrammes (175 pounds) and measures 30 inches (75 centimetres) or more at the withers when fully grown. Tosa dogs, which incorporate bloodlines of great danes, bulldogs, bull terriers and German pointers as well as mastiffs, are an aggressive species with vice-like jaws to clamp around their opponents quivering limbs. Renowned for stamina and a commanding presence in the ring, the breed has become a synonymous with dogfights in Japan, but its future is now uncertain. ``I'm afraid Tosa dogs may die out in the near future,'' said Takashi Hirose, manager of Kochi's sole dogfighting exhibition centre, located in Katsura Beach, the city's most popular tourist site. ``In the current difficult economy, not so many people can afford to own Tosa dogs as it costs more than 100,000 yen ($945) a month simply to feed one, which also needs special care against skin disease,'' Hirose told AFP. " http://www.jphpk.gov.my/English/Apr04%205d.htm

Answer by firedragons
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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One thing that is hillarious (it always makes me laugh) is pit bull fan exaggeration. For example, you have heard that pit bulls can pull more than any other dog! Haha! For a little dog, they are OK, but they could not compete with a big dog. " Susitna, a Saint Bernard died many years ago but still lives on in the hearts and memories of dog weight pull enthusiasts. His pull of 5,220 pounds (see picture above left) at the 1976 World Championship Dog Weight Pull SM has not been challenged since and seems insurmountable to the many competitors who have since followed. Susitna's brother, Kashwitna (see picture above right), often went head to head with Susitna and on August 11, 1974, set a new world's record by pulling 6,000 pounds on wheels and won the title of World's Strongest Dog in the Guinness Book Of World Records." http://alaskansaint.com/Susitna.htm Pit bulls don't even win the "ultra light dog" division for 50 pounds. That's a little big for a pit. " Frank, the nine time World Champion in the Ultra-Lightweight Division passed away peacefully in his sleep in the early morning of June 14, 2000 at the age of 15 He was the son of a pregnant stray that was taken in by his lifelong caretaker and partner Kelley Griffin. Soon after he was born, he went to help work a trap line and haul freight to Kelley's remote homestead. This award publicly recognized his accomplishments in the Ultra-Lightweight division including his 1995 record pull of 2,450 pounds and his first place finishes at the 1987, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997 and 1999 World Championship Dog Weight Pull SM." http://alaskansaint.com/Frank.htm In fact, large pit bulls can barely compete with the "ultra light" champions!!! They also only pull the weight a couple inches ....in Alaska, they must pull it 100 feet! 1 Dusty/Pit Bull Chad Huyck 54 M 1210 26.80 120 1' 5" 2 Bella Jen Leville 56 F 1210 18.50 1420 7.5" 3 Duke/Sibe Rosalie Reyer 58 M 1000 32.57 1210 11" 4 Java/Pit Bull Chad Huyck 24 F 600 8.86 800 7" 5 Sierra Debie Seder F 0 DNQ 0 DNQ 6 Echo Debie Seder F 0 DNQ 0 DNQ http://www.amcw.org/pwwauk_results.htm Under the same rules and conditions, the pit bull cannot pull nearly as much as many other breeds .. and they lose their strength quickly and can only pull these weights for inches. To sound competitive, in the continental US, pit bulls pull (not a flat bottomed sled) a wagon on metal wheels connected to a rail, or hard tires. "Rondout Valley Animals for Adoption (Accord, NY) Second Prize Winner - $5,000 "Lug Nuts" is an inner -city program created as a response to the increasing problems communities are encountering with the illegal and inhumane practice of dog fighting. Despite the success of spay/neuter in many parts of the nation, "muscle breed" dogs such as Pit Bulls and Rottweilers, are being bred in proliferation in urban areas and often used for dog fighting and sparring. Lug Nuts organizes and hosts informal weight-pulling contests; dogs are fitted with padded pulling harnesses and are hooked up to sleds loaded up with bags of dog food, which make great prizes afterwards. This program has made great strides in replacing dog fighting in urban communities with a positive, humane form of competition that strengthens the human-dog bond. More information about Lug Nuts can be found at www.suesternberg.com.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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I answered your questions at length, but for some reason they weren't posted. Anyway, they use pit bulls in Japan that are better blood lines than here ... we are almost illiterate in the country � for example, take medications. The manufacturer tells us to give lower dosages to children�that�s because we aren�t smart enough to go by weight. In Japan, the medicine tells you dose/kg body weight. Also, ever wonder why �Walk� is being replaced by the symbol of a pedestrian walking? It�s because so many Americans can�t read. People don�t really care so much about their dogs�there are those that do, but not pit bull owners. Most pit bull owners in the US are low lifes. The ones in Japan are often educated and good couples. They look for good qualities. Many countries have organized dog fighting in one way or the other. You can find it in some of Asia and all over the Middle East. Afghanistan, for example, had organized dog fighting. The Taliban stopped it, but it�s started again.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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thank you for answering. sorry about my rude message, i was just mad because i take great pride in raising my dogs for family companionship. i once was one of those lowlifes you talk about, thats how i meet these wonderful animals. i have gotten away from my past, and now have a family and children of my own,my wife runs a daycare at home. this same breed of dog ive watched when i was younger be so aggressively in the hands of wrong people is the same breed i watched lick a kids face after the kid bashed her head with a rock. my dogs tolerate some pretty ruff playing by kids, and they love it. i know the pitbull isnt almighty but it demands respect for its ability to be a great dog in the right hands. i have seen both sides of this dog, and they do very well at whatever it is the owner wants from it(good or bad). now days, i want people to see my dogs for their loving clownish ways, and not for power or gameness, although i still respect them for what they were originally breed for.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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I posted the "ultra light weight champion" He was a dog that pulled a sled...the same sled that no pit bull of any weight has pulled more than a couple hundred pounds..that's why they use wheels. The dog pulled, 2,500 pounds and he was just 50 pounds. As a substitute for fighting, pit bulls have started their own contests....but they can't compete with other dogs. Anyone that would allow a pit bull around kids is a low life. I am not sorry for that. You are plenty stupid, dude. Have you seen a wild animal playing .... and then when it's hungry, it eats. Your stupidity risks children and you are unfit to be around children, LEGALLY in at least 23 states!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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Children often don't recognize dangers. Adults must do this for them, but how about when adults are as stupid as dirt? Horn raised his tiger from birth. It was always gentle with him, always played with him...till the day it tried to kill him. Just like that. Animals, although fun to be around, bite. They don't bite all the time, but they bite. A young child should have a very small dog, one that can't do serious harm to him/her. Large dogs can even trample and stomp. Animals being playful can cause scars and serious injury. The government advises that the child learn the threatening behavior factors of animals, plus: Ask the children to act out these behaviors. Stress these principles: Animals, even friendly ones, can be unpredictable. Stay away from animals, especially large ones. Avoid animals with newborn or young. Stay away from areas with male animals. Stay calm, speak quietly and move slowly when around animals. There are also distractions. Children have been seriously injured by large dogs that have become distracted and didn't even know they had injured the child ... for example, when a cat goes by ....the dog might react and trample the child. Children can be annoying and the dog might react to this as well. With all the children maimed and injured yearly ... how can you be so stupid?

Answer by simon bar sinister
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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Clearly what is called for here is to mate a wolf and a pit bull to create the scariest damn dog in the world! I've read on the internet that pit bulls have a bite strength of 2000 psi and a wolf has 1500 psi. (Actually I read that on this site, but that counts as a factual source right?) In any case, the bite strength of their fearsome progeny must be 3500 psi!!! (It's all additive right?) Furthermore, I also read on the internet that some pit bulls have flippers since they're breeding them to fight sharks. Well, we should throw that into the mix as well! But most importantly what we should then do is breed these awesome swimming, biting pit-wolf-bull dogs so that we have a huge pack. With these dogs we can then invade Japan and take over the Tosas for bombing us at Pearl Harbor. I read on the internet that there's only one fighting center for these dastardly Tosa so if we can train our swimming, biting pit-wolf-bull dogs with the bite strength of 3500 psi we can obliterate the Tosa mothershihp with a single blow! I also read on the internet that there are rules to fighting so we have to train them very carefully. I saw first-hand a pack of 200 wolves attack and lose the match because they were disqualified for attacking a swiss st benard who was actually a conscientious objector non-combatant. Actually it was my friend who saw it. But it happened at Granton Rd!

Answer by Mr Majik
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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Ok listen everyone...This is a very hard question to answer. I mean a wolf is a wild animal and a Pitt Bull is a domesticated dog. No one can really measure the PSI of any animal. Dobermans are aggressive as well, like one of the other people said that a Dobie used to be the toughest or most aggressive dog before the Pitt Bull. I can see why. Look at those animals, they are monsters! They are huge, strong, fast and smart. It is not the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size in the fight of the dog though. But anyway, Wolves are wild, untaimed and dangerous, When they are around other Wolves. if a Pitt Bull anda Wolf were to get into a fight, i believe that the Wolf would win, he doesnt know the meaning of stop and his instinct will say "This animal is food and i will be killed if i dont kill him." PSI of a wolf is said to be around 1500, and a pitt bull is 250, well that really doesnt make sense though, because, There is no way to prove what the PSI is, i dont care how dangerous or tough your Pitt is, the wolf will kill it and have plenty of energy to go on. Wolves are not Domesticated, once a dog is domesticated it becomes weaker because it relies on a human being to feed and shelter it. Where as a wolf does not. The Wolf Would Win.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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ok now i know you really are a dipsh!it firedragons!!! first you say wolves will beat a pit because wolves are wild and pits are domestacated and now you compare pits to wild tigers.whats your beef? are you really this stupid or just trying to start sh!t? lets take YOUR numbers for example, which are just as wrong as you.if pitbull represents 1% of the dogs as you say then there is at least 750,000 pits.why dont we have 750,000 dog attacks then?what about the 99.9% of pits that are good family dogs that you never hear of attacking.you obviously have NEVER been around these dogs.all you say is lies! do you know that pits are used for police k-9s,search and rescue, military, and therapy dogs. so now are you going to say the police,military, and nursing homes dont know what they are doing? because i will trust the police over some retards post on the internet.check it out if your so damned smart.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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between 1995 and 1996, around 42,000 people were murdered in the u.s. in those same years 3 people were killed by pitbulls. considering the u.s. population is around 300,000,000 people, you had a 1/15,000 chance of being murdered in those two years.in those same two years you had a 1/200,000,000 chance of being killed by a pitbull. that means you are 13,000 times more likely to be killed by a man then a pitbull. and you think pitbulls are a problem, WE as americans are the problem, we cant accept the fact we are barbarians,so we blame everything else, and what better victim then a dog whose breed is already discriminated against.dont believe me, look it up for yourself. by the way in those same two years 220 people were killed by horses,now you can do the math on that one.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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LOSER! You disgust me. What if 99.99 percent of pit bulls are lovely...the ones that aren't kill children. In Japan, they don't even let large animals that have never attacked people to be around children. It's like a horse. Would you allow your child to be around a horse unattended? Say, he's five or under. If he is 12 or under and unattended, you can go to jail for child neglect. Children are about responsibility. My cousin was mauled by a large mix. He should never have been left alone with the large dog. My cousin's mom spent a few days in jail and there was a lot of embarassment ... plus court costs and so on. What a stupid woman. She could have spent years in jail. I think we are all pretty sick of people that have children and don't take responsibility. Now, she most likely would have spent longer in prison. My cousin has a large scar on the face and a rebuilt ear. First of all, the PSI of the animals can easily be measured. You must just make the measurements standard. First of all, psi is misleading...the sharper the tooth, the more the psi, but if enough pressure were exerted with a sharp tooth, the tooth would break. The PSI is simply pounds per square inch ... Bite pressure measure the "clamp" of the jaw. In other words, it's the amount of strain the jaw exerts. This measurement is about 1/10 that of a PSI measurement. That's why you see the differences...a dog with a PSI of 2000 would only be about 140 pounds on a strain gauge; however, if you use similar techniques, the wolf bite is AT LEAST four times more powerful than ANY domestic dog, including the pit. As for the rules of fighting and dogs, the Cajun and English rules will stop the fight before the Japanese rules. I have cited this. The losers that say the pits lose because they whine is not the reason. Most of them have been "burned" and cannot bark or make sounds. A small Tosa can generally beat the pit in the same weight and just about always does ... I have cited articles that compare them. I have also cited reality. I would not be afraid of any 40 pound pit. I have also cited why pits were bred...for a small dog. Anyone that knows anything about strength and fighting will know that weights make a big difference. A lightweight might have superior skill in boxing, but a heavyweight will beat him everyday. That's why there are weight classes. Dog fighting in Japan has weight classes, mostly to protect the smaller dogs. AS I have cited, the pit cannot win against the larger Tosa and they don't even challenge now. A larger dog can kill the smaller pit so quicly that it isn't sport. Small Tosas will fight pit bulls ... and they usually win even here. The owners must decide. Tosa are rare in the USA, but they aren't used in fighting because no one would bet. Also, your stats are really poor. There are less than a fourth of the number of dogs per person in the US. Less than 1 percent are pits. Why not let people have lions? The number of bites does not matter ... the deaths do. Spaniels bite more people that pits because they have larger numbers ... but they are a small dog and do not account for deaths. I have been bitten by my uncle's Spaniel a few hundred times, most of which did not draw blood. A also did not worry for my brother. Anyway, for the losers out there ... the government disagrees with you. Most people are fed up with dog owners that are not responsible and especially people that own dangerous dogs. Governments of entire nations have banned the pit and they are banned in most large cities now. They have debated this same issue and the facts prevail. You try to obscure the facts by your statements. The Spaniel cannot cause the injury. Here is another fact about dogs. The attack must generally be sustained or it won't result in death. Dogs teeth normally do not have penetration and they are typically not strong enough to break bones as is the wolf. "Dog Bites Because dogs have strong jaws and relatively dull-edged teeth, they tend to inflict "crush-type" injuries that are not deeply penetrating. Dog bites can, however, cover large areas. They ordinarily will not injure deep structures like bones, joints, tendons, and nerves, although they will often damage skin and the underlying muscle." http://www.drklein.net/bites.htm

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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Wolves can outfight, outbite...and outsmart dogs!!! Wolf Pack Bites Back.(wolf/dog crossbreeds on rescue farms)(Brief Article) Insight on the News, Feb 26, 2001, by Julia Duin "Wolves are superintelligent," says general manager Barbara Berge, who joined forces with ranch founder Jacques Evans in 1992. "Their brain size is 30 percent larger than a dog's. They are very curious. If there is a squeak in the couch, they'll take it apart to find out why." http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1571/8_17/72274327/p1/article.jhtml?term=dog+bites The Myth of the Wild Dog There are many stories of wolves being just "wild dogs" that could be tamed. While wolves and dogs do share many biological traits, they are very different from each other. The dogs we have as pets have been bred to be gentle companion animals to humans. Wolves are still wild animals and should be treated as such. Sometimes wolves and dogs interbreed, and the pups are called wolf hybrids. However, these hybrids usually do not make good pets. There is another myth that some breeds of dog, like the husky, are part wolf. But huskies are just another breed of domestic dog, like a poodle or a golden retriever A Carnivore Diet Wolves eat meat almost exclusively. In the wild, some observers have seen them eat small birds or mice, but they prefer larger prey such as goats, sheep, or deer. Wolves work as a team to attack herds of these large animals. They often go after the old, young, or sick, since they are easier to kill. Many times it is feast or famine for wolves. When they find food, they eat as much as they can, because they may go for many days before eating again. Wolves can kill their prey effectively because they have incredibly strong jaws, which can bite through even the toughest of animal hides. They can even break hard bones in just a few bites. Wolves at the San Diego Zoo are fed a special ground meat for carnivores, as well as large bones to chew on. http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-wolf.html Verifying A Wolf Kill How do you know a wolf killed an animal? You do not know - unless you find a wolf with a smoking gun bending over the corpse. So you have to build up evidence bit by bit and make a judgement. The more knowledge and experience you have, the more likely you may be right. Examine The Surroundings: Search the ground for paw marks and hairs. You can distinguish wolf prints from those of other predators but not from large dog prints. Examine hairs under a microscope for the species they belong to. Distinguish Depredation From Scavenging: Animals scavenged by wolves are already dead, having died from other causes, such as ill health, accident or other predators. So look for indications that a struggle took place: that the prey animal was grappled alive. Haemorrhages beneath the skin - on the neck, throat, back or hindquarters - indicate a struggle, because only live animals bleed when bitten. Identify Signs Of Different Predators: Distinguish depredation by wolves from other predators. The combination of certain wounds suggest a wolf: Bites and large jagged wounds on flanks, hindquarters and upper shoulders of large livestock, like cattle and horses Bites on head, neck, throat, back and hindquarters of small livestock, like sheep and calves Size and spacing of puncture wounds on the carcass matching the diameter and spacing of wolf canines Signs of feeding on viscera and hindquarters Broken and chewed limb bones Carcass almost totally consumed or torn apart and scatted by successive feedings Large prey eaten on site and smaller ones dragged a short distance from the kill site. http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/a-d4-depredation-verify.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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Trained MD's CAN EASILY DETERMINE IF THE WOUNDS ARE FROM A DOG OR A WOLF. A wolf bites crushes the bone and a bite on the arm generally results in a severed limb. Dog's have dull, short teeth and they can't bite as hard ... so, their wounds are often multiple. "Daniel had lacerations of the face, left thigh, left calf, and right thigh, and abrasions and bruises of the abdomen and chest. Mr. Mahlandt was permitted to state that Daniel had indicated that he had gone under the fence. Mr. Mahlandt and Mr. Poos, about a month after the incident, examined the fence to determine what caused Daniel's lacerations. Mr. Mahlandt felt that they did not look like animal bites. The parallel scars on Daniel's thigh appeared to match the configuration of the barbs or tines on the fence. The expert as to the behavior of wolves opined that the lacerations were not wolf bites or wounds caused by wolf claws. Wolves have powerful jaws and a wolf bite will result in massive crushing or severing of a limb. He stated that if Sophie had bitten Daniel there would have been clear apposition of teeth and massive crushing of Daniel's hands and arms which were not injured. Also, if Sophie had pulled Daniel under the fence, tooth marks on the foot or leg would have been present, although Sophie possessed enough strength to pull the boy under the fence." Mahlandt v. Wild Canid Survival & Research Center, Inc. 588 F.2d 626 (8th Cir. 1979) How strong are a gray wolves' jaws? (top) The massive molars and powerful jaws of a wolf are used to crush the bones of its prey. The biting capacity of a wolf is 1,500 pounds of pressure per square inch. The strength of a wolf's jaws makes it possible to bite through a moose femur in six to eight bites. People always think their pets are safe, but: "dog dogs bites attacks 'U.S. Postal Service' Woman tells mail carrier 'dog won't bite', pit bull mauls mail carrier CA The U.S. Postal Service wants to thank a man for "saving the life of a 50-year-old letter carrier who was bitten about the face, head and arms last Wednesday so severely she had to be hospitalized..." The carrier had just received assurances from a woman that her dog was not a biter... "She had blood all over her face. She started going into shock,' he said. As bystanders called 9-1-1, Jaimez said, the carrier kept repeating, "Don't let the dog get me!' "I told her, 'No, I have the dog. I have the dog.'' [Whittier Daily} http://radio.weblogs.com/0107233/2003/06/03.html For a comparison of bites, see: J Forensic Sci. 1991 Jul;36(4):1256-61. Fatal and near-fatal animal bite injuries. Clark MA, Sandusky GE, Hawley DA, Pless JE, Fardal PM, Tate LR. A dog is rarely able to bite an arm or leg off unless it chews for a long time. Wild animals can bit an arm off with one bite.

Answer by JustButtingIn
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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We had a pit bull when I was a kid, and the family had a long tradition of pit bull ownership going back at least to the 1910s or 1920s. I grew up on stories about how great pit bulls were in the old days, and those stories usually ended up with some family member's pit bull taking out some other dog in an impromptu dog fight in the street. I don't know about PSI, but these dogs have the ability to lock their jaws when they clamp down. In one story, which I believe to be true, a dog latched onto a burglar's leg. The burglar shot it, and then the dog had to be surgically removed from the burglar's leg. I don't know too much about wolves, but I knew a dog that was half wolf, and it wasn't much different from a German shepherd (just a little dangerous when you came up on it from its blind side -- wolves have bad eyes). And I know that even though a German shepherd is bigger than a pit bull, a pit bull can rip the front legs off a German shepherd, and will do so in a fight. A wolf might be able to do better if it was a lot bigger than a shepherd, but I doubt a wolf could beat a large pit bull. After all, wolves and dogs are part of the same species. There's a reason why these pit bulls are illegal in some communities. Knowing what I know, there is no way I would keep one. And I do not believe that a person who is not a professional dog handler should have one. These are dangerous dogs, not to be underestimated. They're less intelligent than the average dog, they will be loyal to a human master but they can be pretty iffy around other humans. And pit bulls definitively have an instinctive hostility towards other dogs -- not to establish dominance like in the social structure of a pack but just to participate in the pit fighting they were bred for. To me, owning a pit bull is kind of like owning a machine gun.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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of course i disgust you, thats what happens when you cant face the facts. i know that one number was wrong, that was YOUR number from earlier, remember? the actual number is ALOT higher because many arent registered due to breed bans.then you say government is banning them, yes to get them out of the hands of stupid people(i am sorry to hear about your cousin though, that is tragic, im sorry.) but the fact is government uses these dogs in police, search and rescue, and military without incident. there have been several million pitbulls without incident, and there have only been 66 deaths ever caused by a pure breed pitbull(as of date).now considering some of these were out right murder by the owners command, and over 50% of these dogs are owned by dumb azz, irresponsible street thugs, those numbers are remarkable. Even the center for disease control supports the fact that these deaths were the result of irresponsible ownership and not breed. you have a better chance of winning a jackpot lottery 38 times in a row then you do being killed by a pitbull. horses kill more people every year then pitbulls EVER have through out documented history, so do cows. look, i enjoy these arguments(because i educate myself) but i would like to stop our insults to each other and talk facts. i believe you mean well, and i know i do to, and we both agree pitbull attacks are horrible and something needs to be done about it. i also acknowledge your wisdom on dog fighting, but PLEASSSSSE sit and think about how many of these dogs make great pets to responsible owners and unfortunately allot to irresponsible owners too. lets get these dogs out of the hands of people who only want to intimidate, laws only take them from responsible people, leaving only people who break laws to breed them.thats the problem. i dont know the answer to getting them out of the wrong hands, but taking them from the right hands isnt the answer either.for every bad one, thousands of great ones exist, can we say that about ourselves?

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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JUSTBUTTININ, the only animal i know of that has locking jaws is the crocodile and alligator, THAT IS IT. maybe the Hippo. No matter what your family told you, Pitbulls and neither do Wolves have locking jaws. they wouldnt be able to eat that way, plus its just nonsense. I read in a book that if a wolf ever decided to attack a human(there has never been a registered attack on a human from a healthy wolf) that it would only take one to two bites and it would be over. That came from a wildlife bioligists. No pitbull, tosa, wolfhound, or any dog is going to beat a wolf. there has never been a case in which a dog has won a fight when a single wolf or pack of wolves has attacked a dog or dogs. it just doesnt happen. as for the scenario of a pit bull possibly grabbing a wolf by its legs, that would actually play a major downfall to the pit bull, wolves generally attack dogs from the neck, legs, hindquarters, and especially the back of the neck and shoulders. I have read on the internet from two sources in which a lone wolf attacked two cocker spaniels, in which the wolf grabbed one of them by the shoulder and picked up shaking it, in which the article explains that wolves do this in order to break the animals neck, or there backbone, making them paralyzed. People saw the wolf and scared it off before it had the chance to kill it. The same wolf also attacked two border collies, and killed a couple of other local dogs. The websites to read up on some of this stuff is yellowstone-natl-park.com and go to wolf reports. Their is a brief description of the spaniel attack, but there is another website that explained it in detail. I will try to find it. So if the pitbull tried to attack the wolf by the long legs of the wolf, most likely the wolf would pretty easily pick up the pitbull by the shoulders or top of the neck and just shake it until he litterally paralyzed it. I am telling you, no domestic dog would stand a chance, it just doesnt make since of dog killing a wolf.

Answer by JustButtinIn
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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So, Neal, I think you are not correct. It is a common feature of "bull" dogs to have the ability to lock the jaw, which makes them able to latch onto a bull's leg without being thrown off. In confrontations with other dogs, this makes it possible to grab and then to shake violently with the powerful neck muscles. What you say about wolves attacking humans is also true for pit bulls dogs attacking humans, as we read all to often in the news. So I do not understand your point. What you say about a lone wolf attacking two cocker spaniels is exactly what happens when a pit bull confronts two normal dogs. I know that, because our pit bull had to be put down after something like that happened when I was a kid. (Only the dogs were German shepherds.) May I suggest you learn something about pit bulls as part of the process of expressing opinions about them? You seem to be expressing an emotional response based on disbelief without any real knowledge of the breed.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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JustButtinIn, i have read about pit bulls man, and the books say that the Lock Jaw is a MYTH. read any book about pit bulls, pit bull books will even tell you that pits dont even have the strongest jaws, their determination is what makes them better fighters than rots,etc. Man, even the people on here who think a pit bull can beat a wolf, KNOW THAT THEY DONT HAVE LOCK JAWS. This is actually stupid discussing this again man, no animal except a alligator has lock jaw. that is just common sense. also, all the attacks about pitbulls killing humans are CHILDREN. look at all the statistics put before you. What i read, is that if a wolf ever did decide to attack grown human being, particullarly a man, it would only take a few bites. You can go to a official pitbull website and they will tell you they dont have lockjaw, its just stupid to imagine that. And if they did, the received it from the WOLF, because ALL dogs descended from wolves. and wolves dont even have lock jaw, neither do bears, tigers, lions, hyenas, etc. this seems stupid since we cant even make you understand that pits dont have lock jaws. also, what about the scenario i explained to you about the neck and shoulders that the wolf would get a hold of..

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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this is just getting funny, first firedragon, you need help.. and you still have no clue about anything i listed.. japan, dogfighting, traditional japanese dogfighting,wolves, weightpulling, pit bulls, anything!! you are cracking me up!! first i love how you tell me wolf facts.. umm i used to work at san diego,as well as several other zoos, i currently work with exotic animals including wolves everyday.. too funny.. ever seen a wolf take down prey in person? i have.. ever seen wolves fighting in person? i have.. ever been to japan? i have.. ever worked with pits? i have. i'm sure your answer is "NO" concerning all the questions.. it is true more people are killed by horses than dogs each year.. and fatal dog attacks make up less than 1/10th of 1% of all dog attacks, so basing your argument on those statistics is childish..even the CDC disagrees with you.. by the way many matches of dogs and wolves, dogs and cougars, dogs and jaguars,etc have taken place.. or did you not know that? heck department stores sold exotic animals many years ago, look up the jaguar fight they sponsored. not a pit though.. it is obvious that you are a clueless individual.. by the way, you said in weight pulling that pit people had to start their own contests because they lost to other dogs.. LMFAO look up weight pulling competitions... they say the opposite.. also pits have pulled much more than a coupe hundred pounds in snow/sled contests.. and ALL dogs pull more on rail/track/wheel competitions.. also you said pits pull only a couple of inches, but alaskan weightpulling is held over several hundred feet.. another bunch of BS.. 16foot tournaments are the norm.. 60 seconds.. you need help man.. why do you think you need to lie so much? come back when you have a clue... BTW pits can't "lock" their jaws..

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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I think that Tigercats is a kid. You just don't sound very intelligent. You have no support. I have never worked with wolves, but I have hunted and know about wolves. I also know that everyone knows that a wolf is MUCH more dangerous than a pit. Also, you keep talking about ALL dogs and bites. I am only concerned about pits and the deaths they inflict. Pits are less than one percent of the dog population and they inflicted the majority of the deaths in humans in 1987 and 1988. The CDC didn't disagree with me, idiot. That was a source I used. After this period, the pit was banned in many cities and the stats dropped. Pits killed mostly children....women .. and people that were disabled. After all ... they are a small dog. Neal mentioned that they don't even have the strongest bite...I think that this is true also because the bite force is generally a different dog when they compare wild animal bites. A real biter is the hyena. It has white poop...you know why? It eats the entire animal....hoves, horns, bones. The bones make the poop white. The parts that are not digested are vomitted. They can eat the entire dog, bones and all. Now, THAT's a bite.

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe Idaho North
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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I can confirm earlier post about wolf going for back of neck---killing zone. We know domestic dogs came from wolves, and certuries of selective breeding. In his early time my Samoyed, Russian snow country dog from 600 miles East of Finland, to demonstrate dominance over smaller dog, started closing his big jaws on back of neck of other dog, other dog SCREAMED, and I yelled for him to stop---he stopped. Had I not been there, I don't know if the other dog would have survived. This was UNPROVOKED! It's just like a wolf show of dominance. My Samoyed remembered, in his genetics, how a wolf establishes dominance. Any Rottweiler, Tosa, or Pit, American Bulldog etc., if it gets wolf bite into back of neck, will perish on the spot. Also---my Samoyed can easily stand weather to kill any pit bull. Just place the pit in sub zero weather for an hour, my dog takes it easily, FIRST breed to BOTH North and SOUTH poles! Samoyeds historically have been used to ward off wolves; however, it could be a 7 to 1 deal, also that humans were with the dog, and wolves try to avoid humans.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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Yea, yea, Jasper..and how would you know about good points? Tiger and nick are the same guy, and he made terrible points!!! Nothing he said was supported. Do you like myths? Haha! You can also read this article. Wong, JK, Blenkinsop, B, Sweet, J., Wood, R. A comparison of bitemark injuries between fatal wolf and domestic dog attacks. J Forensic Odontostomatol. 1999, 17, 10-15. "Bite force is linked to the size of an animal," explained Kent Vliet, a University of Florida zoologist who headed up the study. "Since the report was published, we measured the bite of a wild gator, even bigger than Hercules at 13 1/2 feet in length missing the end of his tail. He bit down with a force of 2,960 pounds." To put the record measurement into perspective, hyenas, which are bone-crushing mammals, have a bite force of 1,000 pounds, slightly more than the 940 recorded for lions. Dusky sharks manage 330 pounds of force, and a common dog, the Labrador, bites with 125 pounds of force. Humans surprisingly beat out the pet dog, and measured in at 170 pounds of force.

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe Idaho North
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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force said of hyena jaws you use seems incorrect I see many references that say, hyena has strongest jaws of any land animal One reference said, 1,700 lbs force; you said, 1,000 A dog book on pit bulls said, this dog has around 2,000 lbs force If the dog has 2,000 and hyena has 1,700, then the dog has harder bite---or someone is mistaken book by wolf expert said, wolf has about 1,500 lbs another source said, bite of wolverine surpasses wolf bite in force it seems hard to feature a 50 lb beast has harder bite than 550 lb lion if so this is an oddity as for the lion, you see, a cat is less interested in crushing bone, than in making deep piercing puncture wounds, to sever arteries, nerves, etc. a lion's fangs look like railroad spikes I have no idea how hard a lion can bite; however, that's a 550 lb cat compared to a 170 lb hyena I saw lion dragging 2,000 pound cape buffalo after kill I dearly doubt the hyena could do THAT and another lion breaking a hyena's back by beating it with its front legs! the thing about the alligator is true, seen in a recent National Geographic still, it could be less dangerous to try holding those jaws shut, than those of the other animals, because they have a lot of strength also in opening them, while the gator is weaker than any of them in opening muscles one thing is without dispute, humans have most morbid curiousity of any creature I too would wish to know truth as to dominance and bite force; however, we have no right to do what is necessary to find truth

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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Yea, yea, yea. My little 15 year old sister has never fought Muhammad Ali when he was at his prime. I wonder who would win? Two guesses, the first two don't count. As mentioned in the scientific reference, the size of the dog determines the bite force (all things equal). The fact is � pit bulls do not bite harder than other dogs their size. All studies indicate that larger dogs have stronger bites. The TV show discovery recently measured the wolf, using this same criteria, and found that the wolf�s bite was about ten time that of the Rottweiler. When converted to PSO, the Rottweiler here has a bite of about three times the pit bulls cited. Medical studies on animals that have been killed by wolves and pit bulls indicate the damage by the dog needed much longer and more bites to prove fatal. It is total nonsense to put this dog in such an elite class. It�s just a little domestic dog!!! Measurement of Rottweiler�s Biting Force By Thanassis Papioannou Senior Research Engineer Research and Technology Development Cedars-Sinai Med Center OBJECTIVE: The objective of this study was to measure the bite force of a Rottweiler Force Sensor: Force measurements were conducted with a compression only force sensor (Model SBC500, Mark-10). RESULTS: figures 2a-d show the results of all four successful trials. Maximum bite force recorded were -11 lb. (fig 2a), -47 lb. (fig. 2b), -53 lb. (fig. 2C), and -49 lb. (fig 2d). Expanded views of the observed forces around their maximum values are shown in figures 3-6. DISCUSSION/CONCLUSION: The results shown above present bite strengths that can be translated into significant figures. The biting pressure can be estimated by taking into account the number of teeth making contact and the contact area per tooth. Significant pressures reaching hundreds to thousands of pounds PSI are indicated. Contact Area Per Tooth 1 mm2 2 mm2 A 1,774 884 B 7,581 3,790 C 8,387 4,194 D 7,903 3,952

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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first of all, you say me and tigercat12 are the same person but, he seems very educated on wildlife, but myself has not said one word on that subject because i don't know nor do i try to sound like i do. so how is your theory possible? second you say i don't support my posts, so here you go. go to www.cdc.gov. the American veterinary medical association, under the topic of "a community approach to dog bite prevention" says on page 1733 "singling out 1 or 2 breeds for control can result in a false sense of accomplishment.DOING SO IGNORES THE TRUE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM and will not result in a responsible approach to protecting a community's citizens"then check out under publications..dog bites on page 466 the cdc says "although some breeds were disproportionately represented in the FATAL attacks described in this report,the representation of breeds CHANGES over time.as a result,targeting a specific breed may be unproductive;a more effective approach may be to TARGET CHRONICALLY IRRESPONSIBLE DOG OWNERS." then look at breeds involved in fatal human attacks, on page 839 it says "less responsible owners or owners who want to foster aggression in there dogs may be drawn differentially to certain breeds" then under the subject of "which dogs bite?a case control study of risk factors" you will see a list of the most common dogs to bite as follows...akita-2.8% chihuahua-1.1% chow chow-17.4% cocker spaniel-4.5% collie-4.5% Doberman-3.4% Germain Shepard-19.1% golden retriever-1.1% labs-5.1% poodle-2.2% Scottish terrier-1.7% sheepdog-1.1% unknown-10.1% ALL OTHER 166 BREEDS 25.8% how is it the pitbull along with 165 other breeds only accounts for 1/4 of bites if there so horrible? the pitbull isn't even on the list of dogs most likely to bite.plus there is much more detailed information on these subjects, i just don't want to type it all.do you understand what i just wrote or do you need someone to explain it to you. either your c.d.c. you get facts from stands for center of dumb children or your just a liar. you better hope your mommy don't find out or she might ground you.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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There are different methods of reporting bite force. For example, in the one above from Cedars-Sinai Med Center they used four teeth. Think of it this way. If a woman weighs 100 pounds she exerts a certain force downward from her mass; however, if she lays down, there is less weight per square inch than if she is on high heels. Think about the pressure per square inch if she is on high heels...think about a woman laying on you and then stepping on you with high heels...then think about her using one heel...it doubles the PSI. The Hyena has the strongest jaws of any mammal ever tested ... everyone is in agreement here. The lion is actually not too far behind. OK. But the Alligator has the most bite of any animal. You see, when you study mammals, you learn some characteristics of them ... but there are many. One is that they have specialized teeth. Alligators don't, so the alligator doesn't chew his food ... the teeth holds the food, along with clamp pressure. He crushes the bones in two. The Rot had a deflection of 57 pounds on that instrument. However, you take this weight and figure out the pressure per square inch ... it was actually 1mm squared. It adds to the pressure by being a smaller surface area. A wooden floor that is large might hold hundreds of thousands of pounds. Concentrate that weight upon a very small area, say the size of a screw and it will go right through the wood. Now, when they just give you deflection readings, you get the force applied and it translate to "weight" in a way. Weight is a force and is not the same as mass...the "weight" is a measurement of how hard a body pushes down with gravity. PSI is different. It measures the pressure exerted at a specific area, in this case an inch squared. Now the Rot was measured in PSI, but the area was given in MM..looks like it would be PSMM (pounds per square milimeter), but he converted these figures. There are many concepts involved when you test bite force. It's important to be uniform in the observations. Things can be different...if you use four teeth, it will decrease PSI by a factor of four!!! At any rate, the RATIO is the same. A wolf has AT LEAST four time the bite of any dog. A large dog generally has a stronger bite than a small dog. A wolf can bit through a cow thigh in about six chomps. It would take a dog WEEKS to bite through a cow's thighbone. An alligator can crush a cow's thigh in one crunch. Wild scavengers often has a powerful bit. The animal needs fat and most wild animals don't have much fat. The scavenger takes it from the bone.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Also, in the general scheme of things, the deflection measurement is the most accurate. Once you know this, you can know the force exerted. Then, you can have a fair comparison. If you weigh 150 pounds, you can easily stand on a wooden floor. Try putting your weight on an ice pick that has the point touching the floor. You will find that the pick will penetrate the surface of the wood and finally bind and stick some distance into the wood. You don't weigh more, you are putting your weight in a very small area and this is enough to bite into the wood. When you think of "bite" you think of the force clamping down of something, not the pressure at the point of a tooth. Sometimes, they use one tooth...sometimes, two. In this test study, they used four. The less teeth used, the large the PSI. So, it would be alligator, hyena, lion, wolf, Big Dog, Small Dog. The pit is a small dog, commonly 38 pounds or around there.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Nickname, Tigercats is lying about working with animals. Neither of you are too bright. I have read this report; however, it was taken from another report that was done by the American Vet Assoc. The fact is that pits were responsible for the MAJORITY of the deaths in 87 and 88. They are only a small percentage of the dogs. They were great about getting together stats, no so smart about how they arranged them. If you take the twenty year period, a large number of Rots were also responsible; however, the pit became the main culprit until it was banned in most cities. Then the deaths dropped. Pit bulls are just little dogs. If you read about the woman recently killed in Colorado, several pits ran rampant. They attacks a few people and some dogs ... but no fatalities. Finally, they attacked a small older woman and killed her. They weren't able to kill anyone else and they didn't kill the dogs either. The woman was apparently breeding dogs for fighting and had a treadmill. She had numerous citations. It doesn't matter if pit bulls win congeniality contests or even if they are part human. They have accounted for the majority of the deaths in the past. Bites don't mean for much .... I am only concerned with deaths. Large dogs of any breed should not be around children simply because children can easily be killed or seriously injured by a big dog. I would not hesitate to leave a young child of seven or eight with a Chihuahua. I wouldn't leave the child with a pit bull, Mastif, or other large dogs .... and viscious dogs.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Well, nickname ... the reason I know that you and Tigercat are the same is that .. both of you are ignorant and seem to have a learning disability as well. Tigercat hasn't been around animals!!! Come on! You just used that to "assert" an expert authority. It doesn't work dude. When you sound completely stupid, it doesn't matter if you tell people you are an expert. People know. Both of you make the same mistakes. Neither of you have too much knowledge of the subject, but surf the net trying to find support for your beliefs. The information about pit bulls in Japan was found at a sight that said the pits could only fight the small runts of the Tosa and even then ... the Tosa did quite well. You left off much of the information. You quoted a pit bull site about the study published by the CDC. They took information from other studies and analyzed it. They didn't recommend against breed specific bans .. it's just that this is not enough to eliminate the bites....but it would sure drastically lower deaths. I think dog bites for many people are good things. People should stay in their own yards and stay clear of strange animals. You don't read all the posts. You just say things off the top of your head. You are obviously lazy and a poor student or just a kid. It's rare to find a poster that doesn't really have any redeeming points at all. You seem to get everything wrong. Plus, you don't read the previous posts ... and you miss the important issues.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Pit bulls are just little dogs. They are easily controled by a healthy adult male. However, it's often unpredictable and mean! Sheriff's search dog wounded in attack by pit bull AIMEE JUAREZ Herald Staff Writer BRADENTON - A law enforcement dog is expected to miss a week's worth of work after it was attacked by a large pit bull. The Belgian Malinois named Quinto was aiding Manatee County Sheriff's Deputy Thomas W. Franklin, 36, and Deputy Daniel K. Parham, 30, in the search for a suspect at the Water-Preston Farms property, 4011 115 St. W., at about 10:45 p.m. Saturday when a large unsecured pit bull bit Quinto's right hind leg, leaving two puncture wounds, according to a report from the sheriff's office. Franklin, Quinto's owner, kicked the pit bull in an effort to stop the attack, the report stated. The pit bull then charged at Parham. Both deputies, who are dog handlers with the sheriff's office, drew their guns and fired multiple rounds that struck the pit bull, according to the report.

Answer by poor CHRISTIAN
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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DEAR "CHRISTIAN", see what you have started here. i never realized that there was so much to learn about this subject, OR that it would be so contentious. i am not nearly as afraid of the PB OR the poor wolf as i am some of the people who post to this website. one of the many things that i have learned here is that the wolf seems only to kill when it must eat to keep from starving to death (what better reason could there be?) or to defend its territory from something that wishes to steal it away. thus i have gained a new respect for and even admiration for this animal (who was probably created by the same power that created us (whatever that power was). i have also learned a great deal about the PB and respect it more as well, but at the same time feel pity for the PB. whereas the wolf lives mostly in the wild and behaves the way he was created, the poor PB lives mostly in captivity, as is or can be the slave of people. yes, they can be ferocious and dangerous, but we people bred and trained them to be this way for our own devious purposes. the wolf is free, but the PB is pretty much a hostage. i would much rather be a wolf! thank you. SKEPTIC no more.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Yes, this is EXACTLY right. If the measurements are standard, the wolf has about four times the bite force. I am not condemning the pit bull. The lion isn't viscious for eating someone ... but he is an unacceptable hazard to humans. So, you can't have lions at your home in many cities. The pit bull should be this way too. Pit bulls tend to be obsessed....with playing with something, or any type of chore. They are also obsessed with biting and they will target you if you are weak. There are many dogs to have as pets. People that have pits and children in the house are dirt. Just plain dirt. Not just stupid, but criminal. It's like these people that hire known child molesters for baby sitters ... or a fox to guard the hen house. What is wrong with them?

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 5/2/2004
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hey Firedragons---please don't put words in other people's mouths; don't act like you have been authorized to speak for everyone else! You say everyone is in agreement that the hyena has the strongest jaws of any mammal. There is NOT universal consensus about that. Absolutely NOT! People posting here are never going to settle the argument. If I saw objective proof about the hyena being #1, I would then agree to that proof. But no proof has been supplied. Researchers in Africa have indeed studied the hyena. But I doubt that those same researchers have studied other bites. A grizzly bear bit through a three quarter inch steel bolt, for instance. Sorry, I don't have page #, name of publication, date, city in which publication is published, author name, etc. I did see this report before, but at the moment, it wasn't of interest to me. I also feel, from having collected over 100 books which describe the wolverine, that this 40 to 60 pound beast could have stronger jaws than a hyena. Various sources concede the wolverine jaw to be more powerful than the wolf. In any case I have no doubt that a healthy specimen could plow his way through a 170 lb hyena, because its claws are extremely dangerous, giving it the same advantage a feline has over a canine (take note, I did NOT say hyenas are either "canine" or "feline"). A wolverine captured in a sheet steel oil drum escaped by chewing through at the point of the bung hole (drain hole) at the bottom---where the metal is fortified with an additional steel ring. Trappers also report cases of wolverines breaking the metal chains anchoring leg hold traps to trees. No, everyone is NOT in agreement about the hyena! Then, what of those 2200lb polar bears? Come on, hyena researchers, do some traveling, don't be stuck in Africa!

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 5/2/2004
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well this will be my last post, as jasper said this is just a battle that cant be won. people cant open there eyes to see that it isnt the pitbull that is dangerous, it is the pitbull owned by a dangerous person that is dangerous, just as is a gun or a knife,these are not dangerous all by themselves, only when in the hands of a dangerous person. firedragons has listed some true facts along with ALOT of lies to deceive you all and shape your opinions based on his own personal beliefs. i beg of you all, to check out these subjects for yourselves, and create your own opinions based on more then just me or firedragons.i dont think he knows hes lying, i just think he honestly believes his own statements, which is the mark of a genius, or a complete fool.i already know the answer to this, but i refuse to continue these insults that only feed his fire.the more i try to open his mind, the more he closes it. i feel sorry for you firedragons, some people try to better themselves and prosper, others try to push there will upon this world, and live in never ending conflict. i hope someday you learn to keep on learning. dont shut this world out, embrace it, and it will embrace you. good luck to all.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/3/2004
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Dude, there were many lies told here, but all by you. For example, there are only a few places in the USA that has wolves in captivity and they must be registered and for scientific purposes because wolves are protected (even the wolves that can be hunted in Alaska are protected). He said wolves rarely injure each other when they fight...everyone knows that wolves kill themselves fighting. It's the number one reason for their death. You believe in myths and this makes you ignorant. You lie to support these myths and mislead ... this makes you stupid. Sorry dude, I have no respect for that behavior. You compare dogs with guns. Well, not all dogs are banned idiot! There are more than 100 million guns in the USA, but some are banned to the public. For example, unless you have a license, you can't have a liquid cooled 50cal automatic rifle. But you can have shot guns, rifles, and handguns...there are exceptions to that, but basically it's OK. I am not promoting the idea that DOGS should be banned. I have a few myself. I am just saying that a large dog should not be around children. Pit bulls should NEVER be around children. That's a matter of law and opinion. The initial question was about PSI and the wolf vs the pit. Now, there is NO doubt about this question....the wolf is MUCH larger in terms of size and PSI bite force!!! Only and idiot continues saying the pit has stronger jaws. Hey, don't feel sorry for me dude. I am not the one that's a moron. You are a little crazy. You are wrong and you persist without any type of valid argument!!! And "Indian" ... when I say most agree the hyena has the hardest bite of any mammal, I am not referring to YOU dude. I am referring to scientist. You obviously are not a scientist. I have never read any other source that said there was a mammal with a stronger bite...if you have read a source, supply one!!! You sound a lot like ... nickname. Cite your source, dude! From the University of CA: "Data from CT scans of the skull and jaws of Crocuta provide important information that complements growth studies. Bite strength and feeding behavior are affected by growth, which is important to young Crocuta making the transition to adulthood. The jaws of adult Crocuta are designed to withstand the forces produced when the animal employs the killing bite with the canines and the cracking of bones with the premolars. Crocuta dentaries are thickened with compact bone below and behind the premolars. This morphology acts as a buttress against bending during unilateral biting of tough foods such as bone." http://digimorph.org/specimens/Crocuta_crocuta/ Q: Is it true that they're just scavengers? A: No. Spotted hyenas kill their own prey more often than they scavenge. Favorite prey include wildebeests and zebras. But most carnivores, hyenas included, will scavenge when they get a chance. Q: I've heard hyenas follow lions around and live off their kills. A: It's more often the other way around. Lions often take over hyenas' kills; the males will walk right into a clan of feeding hyenas and take the carcass from them. Hyenas will steal kills from lionesses if no male lions are around and they badly outnumber the lionesses. Spotted Hyena kills and eats a Rock Python At 7.30 this morning we were on the plain to the west of Masira Hill. We were watching a Wahlberg's Eagle perched in a Balanites Tree when I noticed a spotted hyena struggling in the grass with something. We drove up to it and, as we got there, saw the hyena bite through a big python's spine. The snake immediately stopped struggling. I estimated the python to be between two and three metres long. The hyena grabbed the snake in its jaws about half way down the body and carried it away a few meters from us. The hyena was very tired and slowly began to eat the python, starting at the bite. We watched amazed for half an hour and left the hyena still eating the python. Wilfred Lembris Rensberger, J. M. (in press). Functional differentiation of the enamel microstructure in the canine of the spotted hyena, Crocuta crocuta. Scanning Microscopy. The University of Florida, , Florida State University and the National Geographic Society have sponsored studies on animal bite force. YOu can try to speak with Kent Vliet and reach him through 352 392 3054.

Answer by Blackfoot
Submitted on 5/3/2004
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Firedragons you are a tireless dogmatic. Look at your original post. You said "everyone" is in agreement about hyena bite being most powerful. After I posted comments, you then said "most" agree. WHICH scientists are you speaking of? Just the ones who studied hyenas and found their jaws are indeed powerful. I have searched the web, and found none of these hyena researchers testing other species. They started with an assumption and "proved" it by circular reasoning. I have seen no documented references from you, because you haven't mentioned any. You are putting words in the scientists mouths. Let me hear from those who have tested wolverine and Kodiak bear bites. You have a world view in which you picked a favorite, and by God you're going to stick with that no matter what. I know grizzlies have been studied but I never saw ANY study measuring their bites and wolverine jaws ("crushes bones like straw") have been compared to hyena in power as far as I can see the issue is open to dispute and you have not convinced me. How about the rest of you---do you notice how stubborn this fellow is? If he becomes a meteorologist he'll say, "wet streets cause rain!" I choose to stay open minded as to bite force of these species and I am convinced he also has underrated the pit bull.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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Let me explain English to you a little since you seem to have some difficulty. "Everyone" is not a categorical statement. It is often used in context of recognition. In other words, EVERYONE in the scientific community seems to agree here. If you know exceptions, post them along with your citations!! I don't include you in this statement because you are not a scientist and you seem to barely comprehend some of this. Bears can bite hard, it's true but I have already stated how the bite is determined by estimation and also by measurement. Haha! I have cited institutions that test bite power and the number. Either you are too stupid to read the post completely, or you are such a loser that your mind doesn't pick it up .... at any rate, talk is cheap .. obviously from listening to you. For those that feel the debate is over, it is really. You haven't presented anything on your behalf that supports your view except some "armchair" logic. You create your own arguments and then you break them down. You also take up issues that aren't important. I have explained the term "everyone" so that you might learn a little. I know you are a native speaker, but your grasp of the language seems week. You are also very stupid ... communication allows for explaination and defining meanings. Now, hopefully you understand. I know you make up your arguments for and against pit bulls ... haha! Loser. I guess you are trying to give some arguments, none of which are done well. Again, there is one university that is testing bite force by sponsor. I have cited this. As for the size of the jaws...get over it dude. Pits are small dogs. Look at mastiffs or rots...they have MUCH bigger jaws.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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These are the measurements, from the most powerful down. They have measured many mammals, dogs, reptiles and so on... Now ... CITE a source, not from your "mind" that tells a different story from the same bag of beans. In other words, DIRECTLY compares two or three mammals with the SPOTTED hyena the loser. Now, you can't get your information from bath room walls, voices speaking to you .... in your mind and so on. You must find a site that lists the Hyena (Spotted only) second to another mammal. Alligators are not mammals, just for your information. Here's the webpage... http://www.napa.ufl.edu/digest/stories/chomper0903.html Research: Alligator is animal kingdom champion chomper The lion has its roar, the cheetah its speed. But the beast with the most powerful bite? The alligator. So say three researchers who recently completed a study measuring the force alligators exert when they clamp down their toothy jaws. American alligators, known scientifically as Alligator mississippiensis, bite harder than any other member of the animal kingdom yet studied, including lions, hyenas, some species of sharks and wolves, not to mention people, said Kent Vliet, a University of Florida zoologist. In fact, their chomp may even be mightier than some species among history�s most-celebrated masticators, the dinosaurs, he said. �Alligators do these excruciatingly powerful bites,� he said. �They really just lay into it. You can see their neck muscles flex.� Vliet is an author of a paper about alligators� biting prowess that appeared last month in the Journal of Zoology of London. The two others are Gregory Erickson, a professor of anatomy and vertebrate paleobiology at Florida State University in Tallahassee, and Kristopher Lappin, a biologist at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff. To test the gators� bites, the scientists built �bite bars� � metal bars resembling large tuning forks. The bars, which were covered in leather to prevent damage to the alligators� teeth, contained strain gauges that measure force. The researchers presented the bars, which were of varying length and thickness for different sized alligators, to more than 40 captive gators ranging from about 1 foot to over 12 feet at an alligator farm. The gators did the rest. �The hardest part of the work was getting the bite bar back from them, because they�d often hold onto it for 20 minutes, and it is delicate equipment,� Vliet said. �We didn�t really want them walking off with it.� Not surprisingly, the bigger the alligator, the harder the bite. The largest, a nearly 12 1/2 -foot behemoth weighing 665 pounds named Hercules, bit down with a more than a ton of force � 2,125 pounds, to be exact, or nearly as much force as the weight of a small sedan. That�s more forceful than all living animals measured, Vliet said. The lion, for example, has a bite force of about 940 pounds, slightly less than the hyena�s roughly 1,000 pounds. The only shark tested, the dusky shark, achieves about 330 pounds, while a common dog, the Labrador, bites at a mere 125 pounds or so. Anyone ever jawed by a toddler might judge the strength of the human bite force to be near infinite. But people bite at a maximum force of about 170 pounds, just one-thirteenth the strength of a large gator. Vliet said Tyrannosaurus rex may have bitten with a force of some 3,300 pounds. However, smaller theropod dinosaurs, or bipedal carnivorous dinosaurs, may have bitten with a force of no more than 450 pounds.

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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my god fire, how short was the bus you rode to school? you are an wanna be.. as i said many times.. about the ONLY thing you have posted correctly concerns the force of a hyena's jaws.. BTW i have probably been working with animals since you were nursing on your momma's breast.. so i will leave the wanna be stuff to you.. ok we know you are clueless concerning everything i mentioned before.. that is a given, based on YOUR posts.. also nick and i are NOT the same person nor do i have a clue who he/she is.. now to throw a wrench in your machine, the lion does not have the most powerful jaws of the big cats, nor does the tiger.. it is the jaguar that comes in first, second only to the spotted hyena..as far as mammals go at least.. now granted this is not 100%gospel, but it is the general thought of almost every person working or researching anything in the animal fields.. and only 3 hyena species are considered powerful biters.. also there have been several studies done with several croc subspecies that disprove the alligator theory.. yet none have been conclusive.. and as far as wolves killing each other fighting among themselves, you don't know much about wolves do you? the most common "fights" among pack mates are merely threat displays.. and almost NEVER cause anything more than a superficial injury.. wolves almost NEVER kill each other in one on one fights..in the overwhelming majority of wolf on wolf deaths, the death resulted from an attack of several pack memebers.. also the reason wolf deaths between pack mates is rare, is because they are wild animals.. in almost every pack oriented animal(lion prides,wolf packs ,baboon troops) fights to the death are quite rare when viewed as one on one fights.. this is for several main reasons, but the main reasons are simple dominance, and prevention of injury.. an injured wolf does not help in the hunt.. thus the reason for the threat display types of fights.. same goes for lion etc.. while in most cases the injured animal does still travel and eat off the pack, it is not the position either the animal nor the pack prefers.. i'm not sure why you lie so much, maybe some mental instability you have, the need to be right all the time.. who knows.. but ANYONE with ANY knowledge on ANY of the subjects can see thru your BS.. my guess is that you can't grasp that.. btw thank you to the people that complimented me..contrary to fire's whinings, i have been working with domestic and exotic animals for many many years..unlike fire(i might add). i would say lets have a quiz for fire dragon but he would just go look up the answers and then act like he knew it all along.. lol hey fire what happens if you breed a liger and a tigon? super sized babies? dwarves,can't be done, they don't exist,what? have fun looking it up..lol

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/5/2004
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Tigercat, I don't think you fool anyone. First of all, what you asked is childish and something that demonstrates you don't know anything about dogs, dog fighting, or Japan. You are a fool. Haha! Loser! I doubt if there are actually many posters on this page besides yourself and your screen names because people would become outraged at your stupidity. As for wolves and killing each other, that's the number or two cause of death among wolves. I have already posted this information and where it can be found. You are so stupid! The federal government keeps track of what kills wolves. It's not a surprise. You are just stupid. The lion's jaws are much stranger than the little jag!! You are an idiot! The wolf can bite harder that a jag! Anyway, I have posted this and my citations. You don't learn much either, do you?

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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How could I correct every fallacious statement on this page? I couldn't. But I will say this, dogs are wolves! Wolves that have had their evolution directed by man in specific ways to better suit them to specific tasks. The greyhound IS faster than the wolf, the bloodhound DOES have a better nose than the wolf and the pyreneese IS better at guarding flocks of sheep then wolves would be. No one denies this. But for some reason when it comes to fighting I guess you all think man just made heaps of blunders through history and in breeding for superior fighting dogs they somehow degraded the fighting ability of the animals they were breeding. Quite uncharacteristic I must say, rather strange indeed. Ofcourse a pitbull will beat a wolf in a fight, suggesting otherwise is like suggesting a pitbull will be more successful trying to survive in the alaskan wilderness than a wolf would be Ofcourse it would not, it has given up a plethora of survival traits in favour of traits to make it a better fighter. Same goes for all the breeds with combative histories. The pitbull isn't the only breed that will beat a wolf in a fight. The wolf would probably be ranked somewhere like 26th or something. It would be ranked 1st in the category nature 'bred' it for, which is survival in the environment it adapted to. Its been fun ending this discussion, good night

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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How could I correct every fallacious statement on this page? I couldn't. But I will say this, dogs are wolves! Wolves that have had their evolution directed by man in specific ways to better suit them to specific tasks. The greyhound IS faster than the wolf, the bloodhound DOES have a better nose than the wolf and the pyreneese IS better at guarding flocks of sheep then wolves would be. No one denies this. But for some reason when it comes to fighting I guess you all think man just made heaps of blunders through history and in breeding for superior fighting dogs they somehow degraded the fighting ability of the animals they were breeding. Quite uncharacteristic I must say, rather strange indeed. Ofcourse a pitbull will beat a wolf in a fight, suggesting otherwise is like suggesting a pitbull will be more successful trying to survive in the alaskan wilderness than a wolf would be Ofcourse it would not, it has given up a plethora of survival traits in favour of traits to make it a better fighter. Same goes for all the breeds with combative histories. The pitbull isn't the only breed that will beat a wolf in a fight. The wolf would probably be ranked somewhere like 26th or something. It would be ranked 1st in the category nature 'bred' it for, which is survival in the environment it adapted to. Its been fun ending this discussion, good night

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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oh i see, you couldn't answer the simple question... LOL there is a shocker.. well you have just proven once again that you are an idiot when it comes to animal knowledge.. btw i am not any other screen names on here.. but nice try, i guess it is hard for you to see that many others can see through your bs.. i find it funny that you can't answer simple questions about subjects you debate... now lets get to your latest stupid points... let's see the first part was merely a childish attempt to avoid a simple question, so we will skip that. "As for wolves and killing each other, that's the number or two cause of death among wolves. I have already posted this information and where it can be found. You are so stupid! The federal government keeps track of what kills wolves. It's not a surprise" again your lack of knowledge shines through.. wolf on wolf death is common, wolf on wolf death in the pack is uncommon.. outside of the pack, as i have said many times, it is NOT, the overwhelming majority of the time,one on one fights.. it is several members of a pack attacking a lone stray wolf, a wolf from another pack that has invaded their territiory, etc... maybe somewhere in your feeble mind you will grasp that this time. "The lion's jaws are much stranger than the little jag!! You are an idiot! The wolf can bite harder that a jag! Anyway, I have posted this and my citations." it must be annoying having to wear that helmet all the time.. lol you are making this TOO EASY.. your own words prove that you know nothing about animals.. umm hey genius(lol) look up what you just said .. then come back and be an adult and admit you were wrong.. because every person, in all the animal fields, just hurt themselves laughing at your statement.. you are a wanna be in the purest form...even wolves are laughing at you.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/7/2004
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As I mentioned before, Wolves kill dogs regularly ONE ONE ONE. Dogs can't kill wolves, or there are NO REPORTED incidences. I have the number to call in WI, AK, and MN. It's easy to verify this and also get a laugh from the wilf life people when you tell them you think pit bulls are the killer in the fight! Here is an article, and NOTE the dogs were killed one on one!!! http://www.wolfology.com/id72.htm Abstract Compiling data from all complaints of wolf interactions with dogs within Minnesota's wolf range between 1979 and 1987, the authors conclude that interspecific aggression alone may not explain wolf attacks on dogs, and that in some cases wolves view dogs as prey. This study is deemed important as wolf depredation on pets can cause anti-wolf feeling in recovery areas. Wolves (Canis lupus) are the progenitors of dogs (C. familiaris), and the 2 species interbreed. They also fight with one another, and wolves are known to eat dogs, but such interactions are mentioned only briefly in scientific literature. In the United States out of Alaska, the wolf exists only in Minnesota...and in parts of northern Wisconsin, Michigan, northwestern Montana, and possibly Idaho....Recovery plans for the eastern timber wolf, Northern Rocky Mountain wolf, and Mexican wolf identify other areas of the United States for potential reintroduction.... ....A major issue in public acceptance of wolves is the potential for depredation on domestic animals. Current information on wolf interactions with domestic animals in North America is scarce, and information on the specific problem of depredations on dogs is especially rare. We report on the nature and extent of wolf-dog interactions in Minnesota, based on investigations of complaints received by personnel of the federal government dealing with wolf-depredation control. Our findings may indicate the wolf-dog interactions that can be expected in other recovery areas. STUDY AREA AND METHODS A general description of the 59,000-square km. wolf range in Minnesota is provided in Bailey (1978). With larger towns excluded, the area includes about 68,000 households whose dogs migh be exposed to wolves. Most of the wolf range is rural, including many small communities and single residences. Complaints of wolf interactions with domestic animals were received by our office from the public during 1979-1987. We field checked all complaints as soon as possible, normally within 24-48 hours, and verified whether wolves had killed or wounded [one or more] dogs. Identification of wolf-inflicted damage was based on (1) size and location of bite marks on dogs; (2) identification of wolf tracks, droppings, or other wolf sign in the immediate vicinity of attacks; and (3) observations related by dog owners. RESULTS AND DISCUSSION From 1979 through 1987 we received 47 complaints of wolf-dog interactions (8% of all wolf-domestic animal complaints received). In 19 (40%) of the events, the owner had merely expressed concern about the safety of dogs, an encounter had occurred without damage, or damage had occurred, but we determined that wolves were not responsible. In 28 (60%) instances, we verified that wolves had wounded or killed dogs. In total, owners claimed that 54 dogs were wounded, killed, or missing. Our investigations confirmed that wolves had killed at least 24 dogs and wounded another 10. These figures indicate the minimal extent of wolf-dog conflicts, because it is not likely that all attacks on dogs were reported. Wolves killed dogs during every year of our study, with 1-8 complaints received annually, and 1-6 verified reports. The year of highest depredations was 1984 when 20 dogs were reported killed, wounded, or missing, and 9 were confirmed killed or wounded.... ....Only 4 of 47 complaints of wolf-dog interactions in Minnesota were associated with concurrent complaints of depredations on livestock. Tompa (1983) reported comparable figures from Alberta. Therefore, wolves showed no strong inclination to attack dogs at residences near where they were already preying on livestock. Dogs were the only domestic animals available at many depredation sites. Generally, rural residences and those at the edge of small communities in areas of high wolf populations seemed most likely to experience problems. Although depredation on livestock has a predictable seasonal pattern, occurring primarily between May and October, no seasonal pattern was evident for depredations on dogs....Tompa (1983) reported that all 13 attacks on 29 dogs in a 3-year period in Alberta occurred between October and March; wolves were closer to human settlements during that period of the year because of shifts in distribution of wild prey. Several breeds of dogs were killed, ranging in size from a miniature poodle to a Norwegian elkhound. Based on our investigations and interviews with dog owners, we believe that small- to medium-size dogs, which may be particularly excitable and vocal, are more likely to provoke attack by wolves. No selection for sex was apparent. Of 19 dog carcasses we examined, 14 were partially or fully eaten.... While preying on dogs, wolves displayed a lack of fear of humans and buildings that is otherwise unknown except when they are diseased, disabled, or preying on deer. In several incidents investigated, wolves evidently focused their attention on dogs so intently that they were almost oblivious to buildings and humans. Most wolf attacks on dogs, including the fatal ones, occurred in the property owner's yard and, with only 2 exceptions, within 100 m. of the owner's house. In 1 case, a wolf attacked a dog near the doorstep and would not retreat until beaten with a shovel. This incident occurred after the owner had recently lost another dog, and neighbors had allegedly lost 2 dogs. Four fatal interactions involved dogs chained to a residence or a doghouse. In those instances, the dog's collar was broken and the dog was carried away. In 1 case the doghouse was dragged into the adjacent woods with the dog carcass. Several complaints were clustered in time and space. This finding suggests that individual wolves or packs were seeking dogs rather than encountering them at random. The most extreme example was the prolonged episode at Isabella where we received reports that dogs were killed or wounded from June through September 1984. In that instance, the problem seemed to have been caused by a single wolf pack with a rendezvous site 6.5 km from town. In at least 2 other cases, a wolf or wolves attacked several dogs in the same community within a period of a few days. CONCLUSION Wolf depredation on dogs was not a common problem; only a small fraction of the 68,000 potential households that may have possessed dogs were affected. Nonetheless, the problem of wolves attacking dogs can be substantial locally and can produce anti-wolf reaction that could hamper recovery of wolf populations....Some attacks on Minnesota dogs were covered by the news media, which amplified public reaction. The persistence of some wolves in seeking dogs, prolonged attacks locally, and the fact that 75% of the carcasses found were fed upon suggested that interspecific aggression alone may not explain why wolves kill dogs. Conceivably, dogs may be perceived as prey and deliberately hunted in some instances....

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/7/2004
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I doubt anyone could argue against wolves killing peoples cocker spaniels. Its kind of irrelevent to the discussion, kind of really irrelevent. No wolves are killed by dogs? Nay, have never been killed by dogs ever? Lol, you simply must be kidding. Has it ever occurred to you that people aren't reporting their dead wolves? Think about it. I happen to know of dogs that have killed wolves. I know of a bandog in south africa that killed a 150lbs leopard for christs sake, no dog has ever killed a wolf... what a joke. The fact remains that pitbulls are wolves that have been specifically modified for fighting, you can't escape this truth. Your argument is akin to saying a stock standard ford will beat a ford with a supercharged turbo v8 installed in a drag race. In other words its a non-starter. I'm not a pitbull fan, I just have a firm grip on reality where you don't.

Answer by blackbeard
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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last month i saw a national geog programme about african wild dogs; a few of these happened to cross a pack of hynaeas; the hynaeas immediately went for the african wild dog cubs; the result was unbelievable; the 35-40 lb dogs very easily drove of the 180lbs+ hynaeas; the dogs could quite easily have out-run the hynaes but they wanted to teach them a lesson which they did; and one of the females dogs repeatedly went behind and again and again nipped the culprit hynae'sbutt an drove it off; the commentator mentioned that even lionesses don't dare to mix it with a pack of african wild dogs; we are talking of a hyneae which is 180lbs+; has the strongest jaws in the mammal world; which can drive lionesses and leopards from their kills deferring to the african wild dog; and the reason was simple; the dogs were just too quick; the massive jaws of the hynaea were no match for the speed and skill of the dogs; and i'mpretty sure that in a 1 on 1 an african wild dog would be able to hold its own agains the hynaea; and as for the pit bull; it would probably last about 5 minutes against the african wild dog; by then game or not it would be bleeding all over and simply collapse from loss of blood; and the delicate looking african wild dog would not have a single scratch on it;

Answer by Firedragons3
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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Hey, for you losers out there ... or just one loser writing under the different names ... I have posted the number of the Wildlife and Game people. They keep careful records, as required by law on wolves. No dogs have been able to kill wolves. I also posted the article about the large poodle whipping the ass of the pit bull. This is pretty clear. The pit bull certainly isn't invincible and he can be beaten by a larger animal even if he's a great pit bull. There's a really stupid loser on this page, obviously he has personal problems with the world and others. He never posts sites that are reputable or even that support his argument. It's a fantasy to believe that a pit bull is anything more than a bad natured dog that has caused many injuries among CHILDREN. Why do you think 70percent of the deaths are among children? Adults can easily kick a pit's ass. I have posted information about this. I have posted the phone number to the dog fighting center in Japan. They breed these dogs to be winners and not just to be small and tough. Most people that own pits are poor and can't afford to feed a larger dog. Most are low lifes too.

Answer by PROOF
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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o.k. why did you edit every thing good out of the tosa dog newletter,that the editor said about the pitbull.you went to alot of trouble to take it all out!he conculded that the toughest fighting dog in the world is 60-70lb pitbull or a 130lb. tosa.he said that avistor to taiwan asks about tosas and is told the pitbulls have killed them off.he says that a game bred seasoned pit bull should be able to hold its own against almost any tosa,he says in the USA pitbulls have almost always won matches with thec tosa.why did you go to so much trouble just to l;eave all of this out?i think we all see want kind point YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE. YOU JUST DO NOT LIKE PITBULLS WELL THATS YOUR PROBLEM!WE HAVE ENTIRE TOSA EDITORS REPRINT ON THE BULLMASTIFF LINK,FOR ANYBODY TO READ!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/9/2004
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Idiot!! It wasn't edited. It said that Tosas win 90% of the time in Japan, but pit in the US win against Tosa, but are only fighting house pets (that are runts of the litter. A small Tosa is BIGGER than a large pit, for the most part. FIGHTING DOGS AND THE WORLD'S TOUGHEST BREED OF DOG MIXED MATCHED DOG FIGHTS. WHICH IS THE TOUGHEST BREED? by Mr. Jan Libourel, Editor of HANDGUNS MAGAZINE and Editor of TOSA Newsletter In issue #17 of FILATALK MAGAZINE, the claim appeared that the most deadly fighting dog in the world was a 30 pound Pit Bull Terrier. It was also stated that smaller Pit Bull dogs can get underneath a larger opponent and rip out its throat in short order. The claim was made that such a dog could kill "even the most powerful Fila". Right: Gabriel, a Fila Brasileiro at 215 lbs owned by Shoo-its Mountain Filas This seems most improbable. Few would probably disagree with the claim that pound for-pound the American Pit Bull Terrier is the finest fighting dog in the world. Moreover, the smaller Pits Bull are usually the gamest and the most talented. Thus, one of these little dogs can often defeat a substantially larger dog, especially if the other dog is not a Pit Bull. However, it should be noted that serious dog fighters are very careful to closely match weights in the most intensely contested matches. A difference of only a few pounds can count a lot in a dog fight. Moreover, the claim that a smaller dog has a great advantage by being able to get to the throat more readily becomes very silly on close examination. (Editors Tosa on right) By that logic, a Jack Russell Terrier should be able to defeat the small Pit Bull, and a Chihuahua should be able to kill the Jack Russell, thus establishing the Chihuahua as the most formidable dog of all! In point of fact, if a 30 pound Pit Bull went against a huge Fila like Gabriel, Jetson, Chaka, or Reno, the larger dog would crush the life out of the smaller dog long before the superior gameness or athletic ability of the Pit Bull came into play. Assuming the small Pit Bull did get a throat hold, it would most likely get nothing more than a mouthful of dewlap. It is commonly held that the only two real fighting dogs in the world are the American Pit Bull Terrier and the Japanese Tosa. I have heard it suggested that the ultra-rare Majorcan Presa (aka Ca de Bou) might also qualify. The Korean Jindo (looks like an Akita) is also reputed to be a very tough customer. Middle Asian Ovcharkas are also reported to be used for fighting in their homeland and may possess some talent. Mixed matches between Pit Bulls and Tosas have produced mixed results. In Japan, one informant states, the Tosas defeat the Pit Bulls about 90 percent of the time. In such matches in the United States, the Pit Bulls have, with few exceptions, been victorious. However, such encounters typically involve Pit Bulls that are seasoned fighting dogs pitted against Tosas that have been little more than house pets. Most Tosa breeders will have a story about how a dog from their bloodlines has killed or maimed a Pit Bull. It should be pointed out that there is a good deal of variation in the size and quality among both Tosas and Pit Bulls, the latter breed having suffered from the scourge of puppy mill breeding. In the case of a 140 pound Tosa of the finest East Japan fighting bloodlines against a 40 pound Pit Bull of indifferent breeding, I would have little doubt about the outcome. THIS IS WORD FOR WORD, IDIOT! AS FOR TAIWAN, THAT WAS one PERSON AND THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT'S TRUE. PITS COST 1/10TH AS MUCH AS TOSA. THE ARTICLE WAS CLEAR THAT A TOSA COULD EASILY BEAT A PIT AND DOES. TAIWAN IS LIKE THE usa. THEY CAN'T AFFORD TOSAS Being "killed off" didn't mean they were defeated. The dog fighter often fight strays and can't afford Tosas. They don't really have Tosa's in Taiwan ... they are mixed and much smaller. "What about the Tosas in the United States? We believe that there are between 80 to 100 Tosas in North America. It all began when Jack Palace, an American actor, traveled to Kochi, Japan, to film a television program for the ABC Network. Upon seeing a Tosa for the very first time, he immediately began to search for Tosas asking the then Governor of Kochi, what he had to do to obtain a Tosa puppy. Not having Tosas available, the governor approached the Hirose family which eventually provided Palace with two puppies, one off which, the female, was named Ms. Kochi. Palace returned to his ranch with the puppies and successfully bred Tosas for approximately six years until his divorce, when most of the dogs were then sold. Getting back to Tosas in general; Mr. Hirose has indicated that if you see an American dog magazine there are Tosas from Korea and Taiwan, not from Japan, and sometimes the quality is questionable. I'm not saying these are not full bred Tosas because they do have pedigrees, simply that the quality is not there. In America there is a mixture of dogs of poor quality and others of excellent quality. Unfortunately the American Kennel Club does not recognize the Japanese Tosa-Inu and there isn't a forum of national magnitude which could provide the much needed exposure highlighting the virtues of the breed. We would like for Americans to see the real Tosa by way of a Japanese Tosa-Ken fighting dog and be assured that they have access to an authentic Japanese breed standard."http://www.shaku1.com/tosa2.htm AGain, MOST real pit bull fighters are poor and cannot afford the larger and more expensive animals!!! "Pit Bulls Fighting Return to index of stories... INVESTIGATORS LOOKING FOR A BAR FIGHT SUSPECT FOUND DOGS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN USED FOR FIGHTING. BATON ROUGE POLICE DISCOVERED 18 PIT BULLS CHAINED TO POLES IN THE BACKYARD AT 26-59 BAY-LIS STREET. ANIMAL CONTROL OFFICERS SAY IT IS A CLASSIC CASE OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. THEY SAY THE DOGS DIDN'T HAVE WATER OR SHELTER FROM THE SUN AND THE CHAINS WERE MUCH TOO HEAVY. it's absolutely criminal , not only is it criminal in a dog fighting sense, it's a felony to fight pit bulls or any dog in louisiana, but it's also cruel. OFFICERS BOOKED 49 YEAR OLD BOBBY WELLS ON 18 COUNTS OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. 34 YEAR OLD KREGLAN D. GAINES, IS STILL ON THE LOOSE. IF YOU CAN HELP POLICE FIND GAINES, CALL CRIMESTOPPERS AT 3-4-4---S-T-O-P.THAT'S 3-4-4---7-8-6-7." http://www.2theadvocate.com/scripts/062403/ten.htm#85Pit_Bulls_Fighting And by the way...wolves are Canis lupus - this is the scientific term. Canis is the genus, lupus is the species. DOGS are Canis familiaris ..dogs and wolves are NOT the same species. One of the definitions of speciation under natural condition is that no interbreeding happens between species. It is the absence of interbreeding that prevents gene migration and that therefore preserves morphological differences. (12) Absence of interbreeding can be due to geographical barrier, behavioral difference and thus mating preference, or even morphological difference that inhibits mating. Therefore, although we could by human intervention, dogs do not usually mate with wolves under natural condition. 2000 Sep 15, In Italy the Mafia was reported to be engaged in a $500 million business of illegal dog fighting. An estimated 5,000 dogs died annually from the fighting. http://www.eleggua.com/History/2000E.html

Answer by the atlas of dog-breeds
Submitted on 5/9/2004
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american pit bull terrier portrait-the pit bull immediately strikes one as being a dog of power,passion,and undying willingness.the brick like head,which is especially broad between the cheeks [to house the powerful jaws]is carried upon a thickly muscled,well defined neck.the neck runs into a deep,thick,well-sprung chest that bursts with raw dynamism sure affection, and pure game.The length of the dog exeeds slightly the height of between 18-22 inches.Weight is varied, even among dogs of the same height;weight can be between 30-80 lbs being common.The coat short,glossy,nad stiff to the touch.All colors are acceptable, with or without markings.The ears set high on the skull can be cropped or uncropped; docked tails,though they occur, are not accepted by the UKC. Development from the bull and terrier types of yesterday, the American pit bull terrier comes from an undeniable history of pit fighting.THE BREEDS TENACITY AND ACCOMPANYING STRENGTH ARE UNPARALLELED IN THE CANINE WORLD. As rich and captivating as the breed'shistory is, the pit bull's future is more worthy of commentary. The APBT, as registered by the Ukc,is an individual breed of dog and doesn't rfer to just any ill-breed, mindless warrior-type mongrel.In America of times unfortunately gone by,the pitbull was a much loved,much trusted worthy companion.The loveless unworthies who have capitalized on the breeds abilities for illegal dogfighting actitives or other comparable lowlife goings-on are chiefly reponsible for the banning and witchhunting that have begun sweeping the U.S. the media, however , shouldn't go unscathed, for it is also responsbile, for escalating isolated incidences in an unrelenting and attention-getting way.The pitbull'sfuture has been perhaps irreparably undone and everyone is is to blame except the dog iself. The "Little rascal" is to set on pleasing his owner, and ironically this is the root of his own undoing.Accompanying this need to please are remarkble abilities of all kinds. Pitbulls excel in practically every cannie task: herding,guarding,hunting,policing,and ratting. Character: That sly smile,those detemind eyes, that unwaning pleasure to please, the more quality and characteristics of the APBT have evoked more human emotional,rational,and irrational response than any other breed that exists today.bY no means are these dogs people-haters or people-eaters:their natural aggressive tendecies aer toward other dogs and animals, not people. These are truly qualily companions for quality owners-only!

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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This is to the simple idiot that said wolves and dogs are a different species. The domestic dogs scientific name is canis lupus familiaris. Dogs and wolves are the same species. Some domestic dogs are actually closer related to wolves than they are other domestic dogs. Also its incomprehensibly stupid to say pitbulls are just 'mean dogs'. They have been specifically bred to be the ultimate fighting dog, not only must you not know your history you must be unable to fathom the concept of history to say something as simple minded as pitbulls are just 'mean dogs'. The pitbulls ancestry has been focussed on combat ever since its ancestors branched from the wolves, first it was dogs of war, which were bred into dogs of the arena, which were later used in the creation of bull baiting dogs, which were later crossed with terriers to create dog-fighting dogs. All the while only the best fighters have been selected to breed, this being a strict process, naturally each generation improving in fighting ability to become more and more refined towards specialising in that area. It is so disrespectful to ignore this history or disregard it as insignificant. If you understood evolution you would understand that this is the only necessarry point to take into account. With this knowledge you can conclude that it is a given that the pitbull is superior to the wolf in fighting ability. Its that simple. I didn't answer the original question because it can't be answered. Mammals bite as hard as they want, there would be limits to how hard they can bite but you can never be sure you are getting the full force when measuring the bite of a mammal.

Answer by Ken
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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The wolf would win and i agree with FiredDragons. Though, this makes no sense. No one is really answering this question. Most of the people are ridiculing the other people who took time out of their own day to make up this answer. I am not sure who has the most pis i would say that the wolf would though. The wolf is a wild animal. The type of dog is not on trial here. I know an akita can take down a pit bull or a Stafforshire Terrier though, i also know a Stafforshire terrier in which can take the fight into with the Akita. It all depends on the master and the dogs personallity. It really doesnt matter about the type of Dog. A Great Dane. The second largest Dog breed out there would lose to a Doberman (unless trained properly) for the fact that a Doberman is bred to take in and learn how to fight unlike the Great Dane is too much of a lovable Dog to do some real damage. The wolf would most likely win in a fight against a Pit Bull for the fact that the Pit Bull relies on the human to feed and shelter it and the wolf doesnt. Though, if the wolf was blind...and hadt hree legs then the pit bull would have a chance. It really matters on the dog...Not the Breed. though the question submitted by this...Christian person, is what has more psi not who could win in a fight. though the fact remains. There is no way to tell what has more psi unless looking at certain bite marks on the victim or whatever person. Want to see some really nasty pictures of what two Dobermans did to a man who tried to break into there home? Go to Yahoo.com click images and type in Dobermans, look for the cut up man, thats what they did to the man. O well, i think that the wolf has more psi than the Stafforshire Terrier. FireDragons is right.

Answer by Everything
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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There are now two issues in the discussion: 1: Who has the most PSI? Answer: The wolf, by a large margin. 1500 PSI on average with larger wolves hitting even higher numbers. Those 2000+ psi numbers for pit bulls are beyond stupid. In fact, it is listed as a gross myth on almost any pit bull FAQ you could care to read. 2: What about Wolf vs. Pit Bull? Firstly, Wolves are no more dogs than chimps are humans. While wolves may look like dogs, they are vastly superior in all physical ways. The pit bull is a commonly used fighting dog because of its tenacity and easy upkeep. Wolves are absent in the ring because of these factors: -Try finding a wolf in the inner city, retard. -Owning them is a crime in and of itself, even without fighting them. -Wolves do not develop loyalty to their master. If you act like their superior, but show signs of weakness, they will kill you without a second thought. With that out of the way, a few erroneous claims by pit bull lovers need to be addressed. No, no dog can possibly be used to kill a wolf in a one on one fight. Never has happened and never will (unless we genetically engineer those monster dogs from the hulk movie). No, there isn't a dog in the world with more stamina than wolves. I'm astonished at the level of worship you pit bull owners have for your pets. A wolf can chase down prey for miles upon miles and can outrun elk and deer with ease. Greyhounds run fast but are still bred from that same "dog" gene pool that will always sacrifice physical ability for loyalty and trainability. Any fact sheet on wolves should let you know that wolves are, essentially, eternally feral, super dogs. Their sense are more attuned and their bones and muscles are much more dense and conditioned from birth to death. For the record: A large wolf, hungry and angry, would waste no time in ripping a pit bull apart as a snack. Yes, Mike Tyson is tough, but he wouldn't last long against a lowland mountain gorilla.

Answer by hmmmmmmmm
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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first of all this is the real world, not animal planet. dog fighting is bigger in the country then in the inner city retard. second you can breed wolves to dogs, not chimps and humans. you can also legally own a dog up to 90% wolf, pitbulls are more illegal then wolves in some parts. there are dogs bred to kill wolves.no wolves do not chase down prey for miles and miles, they sneak up as close as possible before making a short mad dash. who do you think knows more about pitbulls? owners or non-owners? so how do you figure youre going to come on here and tell pitbull owners about pitbulls. you are as nieve as firedragons or you are firdragons, either way YOU DONT KNOW,SO DONT ACT LIKE YOU DO.stick around, open your mind maybe youll learn something about this great breed. believe me, millions of people over hundreds of years didn't see something special about this breed for nothing.

Answer by why me
Submitted on 5/11/2004
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being a wild animal DOES NOT give you a advantage in fighting,actually it is a disadvantage. Ever hear of the fight or flight response. wild animals will flee(even if they could win) from anything that poses a major threat,making them more vulnerable. this is not hard to understand. Animals in the wild are well rounded with ability's to survive, a pitbulls ability's were meant for one reason only. i don't know how else to explain this other then the pitbull was created to be "suicidal" making it do things other animals wouldn't even consider doing, and if it wasn't successful then we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now because there wouldn't be any proud pitbull owners. don't mistake are pride for ignorance. we know a great thing when we see it, you just havent seen it like we have, if you did, you would not deny this.if you do not want to accept our breed for what it is,then so be it, but please do not try to inform us about what are dogs are capable of. we are not trying to be cocky or better then other dog owners, we just recognize we have something special and love sharing our thoughts about it. to us the pitbull is the symbol of courage and loyalty.is that really that horrible?

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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First off, HMMMM and KATE, WOLVES ARE NOT DOGS. Dogs all came from wolves from over thousands of years. Wolves are not domesticated. Wolves can not be pets, and you are truly stupid to believe that pit bulls are more outlawed than wolves is just plain stupid. Also, you can not keep a wolf up to 90% anywhere in America, the highest i believe i have heard which i dont think is even true is 85%. WHYME, i lived in Yellowstone for three months and i studied wolves while i was there, also i have live footage of wolves chasing a mountain lion and pestering a grizzly bear over a kill for a very long time. Bob Landis is the famous cinematogropher who caught the footage. Wolves are fiercly territorial and known to be some of the most territorial animals on earth. read my last post about dogs territories being inside a wolf's territory. BIGDOG, if you look at the facts of guard dogs fighting wolves, THEY ALWAYS HAVE LOST. I recently read an article about a Great Pyrenees dog being killed. No single dog can kill a single wolf. As for the rest of the stuff, Pitbulls can be good dogs, but bad owners make them bad dogs. They are not just killer dogs, they can actually make great pets. People, dogs are pets, PETS people. i dont understand why people cant get that through their thick heads.

Answer by hmmmmm
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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actually i under stated the number, here is were http://www.bright.net/~k9s/wolf.htmle you can buy a wolf hybrid thats 98.6% wolf.i never said wolves were dogs, i said you can breed wolves to dogs,not chimps to humans because someone made the comparison.if i can own a animal thats almost 99% pure wolf but not a mutt thats more then 25% pitbull in certain areas, i think that shows pitbulls are more illegal then wolves in certain areas.not to mention the wolf is cheaper.i never seen a fight between a wolf and a dog but im sure its been done, and if the wolf won you would see more of them around. people are dumb and need money,and if someone found the "dog" that could beat the pitbull today, i don't think pits would be all thats generally used. im no dogman, but i imagine they use what it takes to win,and sense they use pitbulls, i think the pitbull would win.although im sure there would be times when a wolf might win too.i really don't know but i would trust the people that do this(fight) know what there doing.

Answer by hmmmmmm
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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one more thing-wolves are not dogs but you can't get any closer. we consider lions,tigers,leopards,and etc... all cats but the differences are more extreme then wolves and dogs, not to mention dogs and wolves can breed,not sure but i don't think a tiger can breed with a leopard, yet there both "cats". i don't think you could breed an elk with a white tail either yet there both considered "deer". and so on and so on with alot of groups of animals.if dogs and wolves can breed then this proves there almost identical in there d.n.a. make up.also you could consider the similarities in pack behavior and communication in wolves and dogs but not tigers and leopards etc...so it shouldn't be looked down upon if some people want to consider wolves to be dogs.they might not be right but there not wrong either.

Answer by why me
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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does that make sense "i have live footage of wolves chasing a mountain lion and pestering a grizzly bear over a kill for a very long time" why would they chase something for a very long time leaving the kill for something else to get?was the kill running too?you are a lier.if it was over a kill the wolves would go back for there prize after the mountain lion or bear was a safe short distance away.they would have no reason to go for long distances and risk losing there food. next are you going to tell us the wolf really did blow the little pigs house down, or that the big bad wolf really did eat grandma.save your fairy tales for someone who cares. the truth is you all don't like pitbulls and will say anything to try to degrade our breed as much as possible to make yourselves feel more secure about seeing them around, and if you say there are none around you, then you should not create an opinion about them. being a wolf expert or wildlife expert or even a dumb ass like your self does not make you knowledgeable on dog fighting.who are YOU to tell ME about dog fighting? go play somewhere else and leave this to us mature grown ups. before you go though, one more thing- fuk you

Answer by runt
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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I love pits, I have owned several through the years. My current dog is a pit/rotweiler mix. After reading some of these replies, it got old real fast, hearing how the pit is the greatest fighting dog in the world. Ever hear of a PERRO DE PRESA MALLORQUIN? It's like a pit on steroids. They are rare, only around 400 to 450 in the world. Their minimum height standard is 23inches, and the max weight is 150 lbs. here is a link. http://www.thebreedsofdogs.com/PERRO_DE_PRESA_MALLORQUIN.htm I'm trying to find a breeder in the U.S., but am not having any luck. Any info would be appreciated. I have found several for PERRO DE PRESA CANARIO, but it is a smaller breed. Still a sizable dog, but not what I'm looking for.

Answer by Ken again
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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this is making no sense to me at all. Neal, Neal my boy, he is the only one that makes sense in this whole entire site. he is the only one that can read most likely. Neal makes the most sense. There is no bad dog. only the owner and trainer hae turned them bad. My mother is a dog trainer. We had a pitbull a while ago, my mom knew what she was doing. the pitbull was a great pet. Everytime i search for dog fights with wild animals news articles. The wolf fight mostly that i have seen. The wolf has always won. A wolf is kind of weak without its pack, BUT, that doesnt mean if a dog will cfome up to a wolf in THE WOLFS TERRITORY, then the dog isnt going to live very long. I have seen some footage as well about a wolf fighting off a mountain lion. That takes some guts and a mountain lion must know that the wolf could do damage. Kind of like if a mountain lion was here and i had gun. It would run because it knows that the gun could do some damage. Wolf would win against a dog no hands down. It doesnt matter what breed the dog is. it depends on the Dog's own self. A doberman used to be the most feared BREED of dog. that doesnt mean that it is the toughest and can win every fight. or the fact that every Doberman should be feared. the wolf would kill a dog, no problem and the easiest of ease...write back Neal, the only one that makes the most sense around here.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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BIGDOG says, "ONLY TWO BREEDS CAN DO-IT IN THE PIT!AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER-AND TOSAS.IF WOVLES WOULD I THINK THESE RICH JAP. WOULD HAVE THEM,HELL IKNOW PEOPLE THAT HAVE HUGE WOVLES." Actually, they could have used tigers or lions or bears ... but, as with Englishmen and Americans, and other Europeans...they wanted a domesticated animal. The dog IS domesticated. A wolf is a wild animal and can easily kill a pit .. in fact, a poodle can beat a pit and has done so, just a posted. A person can easily kick a pit senseless with one boot. I don't think many could do this to a mastiff. You may have the toughest 5 year old in town, but would he stand a chance against a two hundred pound man? No. The fact is that weight comes into the mix also. A small dog such as a pit can fight hard and do well against another small dog .. but will lose against a larger trained dog. The Japanese only use the pit when they are poor and cannot afford a good fighting dog. Recently, 26 people were arrested near Baton Rouge that were fighting dogs. They all looked stupid and as though they were inbred or something. In Japan it's different. A better class of people fight dogs and a richer class...but the poor class still fights. It's like going to a little league baseball game instead of seeing the Yankee team play. Even small children have beaten hell out of pit bulls. It is fool hardy to think of them as the "toughest" animal or even the toughest dog. They certainly could not whip a wolf.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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Hmm says, "does that make sense "i have live footage of wolves chasing a mountain lion and pestering a grizzly bear over a kill for a very long time" why would they chase something for a very long time leaving the kill for something else to get?was the kill running too?you are a lier.if it was over a kill the wolves would go back for there prize after the mountain lion or bear was a safe short distance away.they would have no reason to go for long distances and risk losing there food. next are you going to tell us the wolf really did blow" Hey, you write a little strange, as though you are very young or very ignorant. Wolves prefer to kill using their endurance and they run animals. As for "kate" the dude that pretends to be a girl, the wolf is NOT a dog. They do NOT interbreed in nature and only form from human intervention. The WOLF is NOT a dog, obviously. People that say so are just stupid! Haha! As for your thoughts about wolves and dogs, wolves are protected animals. If a wolf is killed, a record is kept. It's easy to tell dog bites and I have cited information on this subject. Wolves kill dogs every year in several states...dogs have not killed wolves. I have given numbers to call and verify. Your mom doesn't let you use long distance? Here is an official publication: It has always been illegal to possess wolf hybrids, but there was no definitive test to prove that an animal was a hybrid. The new language now reads: "It is now unlawful, without the necessary permit, for a person to possess, sell or advertise for sale a wolf hybrid, as well as any animal represented to to be a wolf or part wolf by any name or description. For purposes of this regulation a wolf hybrid includes the result between the mating of a wolf or wolf hybrid with a dog or another wolf hybrid. It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution for illegal possession under subsection: that the person possessed the animal as a pet prior to January 23, 2002, and that the animal was registered with a national registry approved by the Department by implantation of a microchip by July 1, 2002, and that the animal was properly spayed and neutered by July 1, 2002, and that the owner has kept accurate licensing, vaccination and neutering records, and made them available for inspection by animal control officers and other enforcement officers, and that since January 23, 2002 has not been transferred to any person outside the immediate family of the person that owned it on January 23, 2002, and that, if the animal has bitten anyone, the animal was immediately surrendered to the local authorities for any treatment deemed appropriate by the authorities." This language specifically says that if anyone advertises or or in any way represents the animal as a hybrid, it is a hybrid. Numbers 1-6 "grandfather" current owners in if they comply with all the requirements. The department will not be registering these animals. The national registry referred to is already in place for dogs, so hybrid owners will need to go to their veterinarians to implant the chips and register their animals. http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/wolfdogs_press_release.html Oh, by the way...most Wolf hybrids are not even part wolf. They can tell a wolf, but they don't have a good test to tell if a dog is part wolf yet...at least, they don't use it in most states, except for Texas.

Answer by The Nameless One
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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Quote: "we have trained dogs for hundreds of years to hunt,capture,or kill wild animals of all sorts" Yeah, they have trained GROUPS of pit bulls to take on ONE large wild animal. And even then, it is very common for one or more pit to get killed in the battle. AND they usually make the pits wear protective gear around their body to prevent injury. One pit bull wouldn't stand a chance against a wolf. And there has never been a record of a domesticated dog taking on a wolf one on one. But there have been many records of wolves killing dogs one on one. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to roll their pit against a wolf one on one, unless they want a dead pit.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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Man, some of you people are not reading carefully or your just stupid. I didnt say they chased the bear and mountain lion from a kill for a long chase, i said they pestered the bear for a very long time. The mountain lion chase didnt last long because it climbed a tree. But if you read books, or talk to wildlife biologists who are in contact with these animals on almost a daily basis, there are many instances of wolves chasing bears for long periods of time, or even bears following wolves on purposes to take over their kills. Also, this idiot saying he doesnt think a wolf can take down a hog of 400 pounds or so. hell man, are you an idiot. Wolves reguarly take down elk by themselves, and their are recorded instances of single wolf killing moose. saying a wolf cant kill a animal of only 400 pounds is a absurdity. half of what you people say is an absurdity. also, THE NAMELESS ONE stated a fact that i brought up about dogs chasing wolves. If you look up the post above, the only dogs that ever killed a wolf without the help of the hunters themselves were large mastiff dogs, AND they said that was when they were a average of 10 dogs on 1 wolf, but the dogs would take tremendous beatings, sometimes hunters would lose a dog or two of any kind of dog in a single hunt.

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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why does the people that wrote the MINI ATLAS OF DOG BREEDS LIST DOGS AS BEING ABLE TO SLAY A WOLF?WHY DOES THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER-SAY A WOLF CAN NOT FIGHT AS WELL AS A PIT.JUST WHAT IS IT YOU PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEY DO NOT?I KEEP ASKING NO ANSWER!I REALLY WOULD LIKE A COPY OF YOUR BOOK THAT YOU WROTE NEAL-DRAGON-NAMELESS ONE.I MEAN YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROOF!AND ITHINK THE PEOPLE THAT PUT TOGETHER A BOOK OF ALL DOG BREEDS IN THE WORLD, WOULD HAVE REASONS FOR STATEMENTS THEY MAKE.BESIDES WOLVES REALLY ARE CLOSE TO DOGS THE ESKIMO USES AND YOU KNOW THAT THOSE DOGS ARE TOUGH BUT NOTHING COMPARED TO A FIGHTING BREED.A WOLF DOES NOT DO ANYTHING TO A MOOSE BY HIS SELF.OR A BEAR OR ANYTHING WITH GOOD SIZE.I HAVE ALWAYS READ THAT HAVING DOG MIXED WITH A WOLF MADE IT A BETTER FIGHTER.I HAVE ALSO READ THAT WOLVES ARE NOT ABLE TO BEST PIT BULLS IN THE PIT.SO ALL I CAN SAY IS IT HAS BEEN TRIED AND I KNOW THE LARGE 70+LB PIT BULLS THAT ARE GAMEBRED WILL WIN.IF YOU DO NOT THINK SO GET A WOLF AND TRY TO TAKE THESE DOG-FIGHTERS MONEY!DO NOT THINK THEY WOULD'NT DO IT!

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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KEN, thanks for the good words man, just stating facts as well as opinion. Let me ask everyone this, if pitbulls and mastiff breeds are such good fighting dogs, then why arent they the top dog in guarding farms out west. (guard dogs are the most often killed as well). also, the question was already answered previously about why arent wolves used in the pit. look back over previous post people off the top of my head though, wolves are very rarely owned, and if so, they are not purebred and thats the fact, they are very skittish of humans. most people of own part wolf are not dumbasses who treat animals badly by fighting them. also, like i stated, any dog can be a good pet, it just matters how you bring it up. a wolf though can not be a good pet, people have tried and there houses become destroyed because it is a WILD ANIMAL. Wolves are unpredictable and if you have ever been around a wild animal, you get a weird feeling around ya, kind of scared, kind of excited, and curious, you feel the same ways around wolves, tigers, lions, bears, etc..

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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they were bred to fight in the pit.guard dogs were bred to be protective of stock.all dogs were bred to do different things.a fighting breed would not care about the sheep.the coats are shorter they do not take the cold as well.a lone wolf would have no chance one on one with a moose.a mt.lion would kill one in a fair fight.wolves have a pack order and they do not hunt big animals alone.these dogs that were developed to fight are alot more than you think.i have always heard wolves were not that great in the pits.a man that lives near by does have one that is 120lb+and he did fight it and it was nearly killed by a gamebred APBT.it does not matter if one or two of you guys think i am just saying this.if you try hard to find the truth you will![this wolf is supose to pure i could'ntsay for sure but he is much more impressive,than some others i have seen.theres no one around here that cares what you own,as long as it causes no trouble.so whoopee you think your'reright and i think i'mright.]

Answer by hmmm
Submitted on 5/15/2004
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nameless one-WRONG, catch dogs are lone dogs that restrain an animal,they grab by the head hold it down while the hunter either shoots or stabs thru ribs behind the leg to the heart. more then one makes the catch dogs compete against each other, causing great risk to the hunter. they do use hounds to track the animal but these dogs usually don't touch the animal. once cornered or stopped they release the catch dog to do his work. catch dogs have died,but it is not common, if it was they wouldn't do it,these dogs are expensive.the protective gear is almost NEVER worn in the wild because it hinders the dog also. they use the gear in organized competitions in the south to protect the dog so it competes several times in one day.second a wolf would NEVER attempt to take down an animal such as the moose or elk by itself! if they could there wouldn't be no reason for a pack.show me your "recorded proof".third, so what if wolves kill dogs,so do pitbulls, show me just ONE proven story out of all your documented wolf stories where a pitbull was killed.open your eyes people, we are not saying the wolf is a puss, just that it would not last in a pit, no one disputes the fact the wolf is an awesome animal, just that it depends on a community to survive, in the pit it's one on one. the wolf is almost unstoppable in a pack, but he is a coward by himself and calls for back up every time.PROVE ME WRONG WITH REAL DOCUMENTED PROOF NOT YOUR OPINIONS.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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I posted an article about a large poodle whipping a pit bull and his stupid master. I posted a sit where you can contact DOG FIGHTERS and they will tell you even the largest pit bull generally loses against the RUNT Tosa. It's a fact. For Grand Champion, they can be ANY weight..the Grand Champion is a TOSA. Idiot. Women and children have kicked pits, even those that were bred for fighting, away. I have posted medical training paragraphs that discuss wounds. A pit bull can chew on a moose femur all week...the wolf can break it in a few bites. Experts say wolves have bites that are at least four or five times stronger than the largest dogs. BIGDOG, you seem to be a child or something. You are really ignorant. You mentioned two books and they don't support you. Give me the page numbers. They fight pits because they are small animals. They bred them to be small, but if you have the money and want qa guard dog, you can have a bigger dog. That's what rich do. Dude, your head is full of saw dust and you obviously have mental problems. It's pretty clear that the pit is not even the champion among dogs and this is CLEAR. How can you be so stupid?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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The Presa Canario, as mentioned by someone else on this forum, can easily kill a pit bull. When dog fighting convicts in gangs wanted to breed "killer dogs" that would act as murder weapons to kill people, they chose the Presa Canario. The government recognizes as fact that the Presa Canario is tougher than a pit... Defendant Knoller�s Reply In Support Of Motion For A New Trial 1 DENNIS P. RIORDAN, State Bar No. 69320 DONALD M. HORGAN, State Bar No. 121547 523 Octavia Street San Francisco, CA 94102 Telephone: (415) 431-3472 DYLAN L. SCHAFFER, State Bar No. 153612 686 Jean Street Oakland, CA 94610 Telephone: (510) 547-5860 Attorneys for Defendant MARJORIE KNOLLER IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, Plaintiff, -vs- MARJORIE KNOLLER AND ROBERT NOEL, Defendants. ))))))))))))))) S.C. No. 181813-01 M.C. No. 1977360 S.C. No. 181813-02 M.C. No. 1977361 DEFENDANT KNOLLER�S REPLY MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL Date: June 7, 2002 Time: 9:00 a.m. Dept.: Before The Hon. James Warren (my notes: although pits have killed people and accounted for the majority of the deaths (before being banned in most municipalities) in 1987 and 1988, they could not kill healthy adults!!!!) From the court case: 3. The prosecution does not contest that the only evidence bearing on the issue of dog fatalities came from Doctor Lockwood, the prosecution�s expert, one of the country�s leading authorities on the epidemiology of fatal dog bites, which he has studied since 1972. (RT 5152) Lockwood testified that in the more than 300 dog-caused fatalities that he had studied over that period, there never had been a case, as here, �of a healthy adult young woman who has been killed The state argues in its response that �Defendant Knoller herself admitted that she knew that this breed of dog was meaner than a pit bull.� (Response at 4).

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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So, we have established that a pit bull has never been able to kill a healthy adult. Even the LARGEST pit bulls are easily killed by people! THE CITY OF LOS ANGELOS PD USES PRESAS TO KILL PIT BULLS !!! FROM the Whipple case: "(RT 4622-4623.) When asked if she knew Presas were a dangerous, aggressive, and violent breed, Knoller acknowledged that Presas �have a history of being a war dog and a fighting dog.� (RT 4828, 4938.) Knoller was aware that Schneider and Bretches sent Noel a copy of a book called Manstopper, and a newsletter called �Gripper.� (RT 4824-4827.) The �Gripper� newsletter discussed the police department�s use of Presa Canarios to disable pit bulls. (RT 4827.) ALSO, A MAN CAN EASILY KILL A PIT!!!! Man Strangles Rabid Pit Bull AP ^ \| September 5, 2003 Posted on 09/05/2003 12:46:58 PM PDT by Shermy CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Will Stewart says he didn't have a choice in strangling a pit bull-mix. . The dog bit or scratched four adults and two children in an Indian Trail neighborhood and was later found to be rabid. Stewart says the dog, Jake, went crazy. He says after the dog bit the children and his wife, he had to act. He called the dog, which he thinks weighed between 50 and 60 pounds, and pinned him to the ground. Stewart says he couldn't wait for animal control to arrive, so he strangled the dog as he and the dog's owner held him down.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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The wolf pack consists of the alpha male (the dad), the mother, and the off spring. That's why there is a pack. Wolves also hunt as "lone" wolves, either because they choose to or because they were thrown out of the pack. It's almost always a "lone wolf" that kills dogs. The LAPD and other police departments use Presa Canario dogs to kill or neutralize pit bulls. The NAPD (National Association of Protection Dogs) recommends using a dog between 110-150 pounds. Below this weight and they aren't a sufficient deterrent to men when they attack. Above this weight, they pose too much of a danger. The bite of the Mastiff or Tosa, for example, is so massive in terms of damage, that these dogs are NOT recommended for the simple reason that their muscle mass and size make them too deadly. I keep hearing the same person talking about pits without any proof....the fact is that in Japan, the pit bull doesn't stand a chance against the Tosa, and in the United States, the pit bull doesn't stand a chance against the Presa Canario. The pit bull is fought because he is small and he has some "game" characteristics. That's it. It's not because he's the toughest animal, he isn't. People that own pit bulls are often sociopathic and have all kinds of mental problems. The fact is that when the Europeans first arrived, the much larger Mastifs defeated the home Japanese dog that weighed about 60 pounds. They couldn't fight a dog that weighed 2 or 3 HUNDRED pounds. The Japanese began to breed a new dog and over the centuries, they came up with the Tosa. It's a dog that is bred, not to be small and eat little, but to be the toughest dog in the world. It has beaten all other breeds. However, the pit did not do well in Japan even with small Tosas...and in the United States, the larger Presa Canario always whips the pit bull.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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this is the american pit bull terrier by richard f. stratton page 7 the mini-atlas of dog dog breeds by andrew de prisco and james b.johnson pages-419-407-412-428-114 in the whipple case there was two presa canario and if you look at the dog fight site they are not used to fight in japan because they can not. all we are saying is humans,moose whatever is not what meets the test.dog on dog[wolf]is it.and just because someone has a different opinion than you does not make them a child or have ahead full of sawdust.all of that proves nothing and adds nothing to this debate.it got out of hand before and i have tried to stay away from it of late.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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quote mixed match dog fights -by Jan Libourel editor tosa dog newsletter. the presa canario had its origins as a fighting dog.today it is largely a reconstructed breed,with heavy infusions of english mastiff and american staffordshire terrier blood.as a fighter it is reported to be similar to the American bulldog -furiously aggressive for the first few minutes of the fight but lacking in gameness and staying power.when all is said and done the''toughtest dog in the world'' is probably either a 60-70 pound pit bull dog or a tosa weighing about 130 pounds.-of course you read this neal dragon but as you could not use it you left it out.thats what you are all about twist the facts to suit your needs.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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Idiot. We are not talking about "bull crap" fights! We are talking about the Presa Canario, a dog that is used the the Los Angelos Police Department, right now, to neutralized pit bulls. Not to compete with them, the Presa just KILLS them or injures them so they can't be dangerous and this happens IMMEDIATELY. You don't know anything about dog fighting. Humans fight in similar weights .... a heavy weight would knock a feather weight out in the first round. There would be no competition, so they don't fight. The dogs are also divided by their weight. The smaller dogs for the most part can't compete with larger dogs ... assuming they are both trained. You can say what you want, but the REAIITY is that the pt does not stand a chance against the Presa or the Tosa. End of story. In the real world, these dogs destroy pit bulls and there is no fight because there is NO competition!!! Get it? There are dog books by people that see pits and also people that are just dtupid. Most pit bull owners are certainly stupid and sociopathic. You and others ignore reality and just talk and talk. The legal case mentions the use of Presa Canario dogs to protet LAPD against all the gang pit bulls that are used for fighting and to attack people that enter their property. I have also shown that in the real world, the pit cannot even compete with the Tosa because it's not even a fight...the Tosa easily wins. I have given a number of the fighting dog center where ANY dog can fight, but the pit is no competition. Youcan also call the LAPD. Small pits are dangerous to children and the elderly or the infirm, but in 300 DEATHS, a pit has NEVER killed even a healthy woman. That's a fact. However, even poodles and children have whipped pits. Would this happen with a wolf? I don't think so. You are such a fool!!!! It's as though you have no comprehension of reality.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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Marjorie Knoller, Convicted in Dog Mauling, To Be Released The California woman whose dogs mauled to death a neighbor in January, 2001 will soon be released on parole after serving a little more than a year in prison. Marjorie Knoller, who was present when her two large Presa Canario dogs attacked and killed Diane Whipple in the hallway of their apartment building, was convicted of second-degree murder in 2002. On appeal, a judge reduced the verdict to involuntary manslaughter and sentenced Knoller to a prison term of four years, the maximum allowed. Under California's sentencing laws, Knoller's parole was mandatory after she had served 14 months. Knoller will be released sometime within the next few days, according to California Department of Corrections spokesman Russ Heimerich. She will be driven by a parole officer from the Central California Women's Facility in Chowchilla to an undisclosed location in southern California to serve her parole. Knoller will not be allowed to live with her husband, Robert Noel, who was also convicted in the case and was released earlier. That's because "parolees are usually prohibited from associating with other convicted felons," CNN reports here.

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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a pit bull can be over 100 pounds.not all are small dogs.i had a big male that weighed 85 pounds.the large ones are listed as capable of stopping a full grown man.i do think a wolf can be killed by many different breeds of dogs.i have listed my books page numbers.no determind pit bull would be whipped by a poodle or child.thats crazy.of couse a defective dog of any breed may not give a good acount of its self.but why are dogs listed as being able to kill wolves one on one in the atlas?is because you know more than the experts that wrote it?also why does it matter to you,if i think differently than you?really i was just getting in the fray of things for a while but,i thought i don'nteven know this guy what do i care what he thinks or does'ntthink![OH YEAH MY NICKNAME IS'NTREALLY BIGDOG THATS WHAT WE CALL MY 90LB. YELLOW LAB THAT JUST THINKS HE THE TOUGHEST DOG IN THE WORLD]

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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for one thing, i havent read that book in order to see what it is talking about, but i will check it out. but i am certain it wasnt clearly saying one dog can kill a single, full grown adult wolf. i have heard that they might have killed pups back in the 20's when they were being chased. Also, the book may be referring to a different species of wolf, not particullary the gray wolf, which is the largest of the wolf species. there are MANY different wolf species that range from 30-150 or more pounds. The thirty pound wolf would have trouble, but not a gray wolf(timber wolf). it just doesnt happened, if it could, it would be listed on websites, news articles, etc. all over the place and people would be using them as guard dogs for their livestock. And none of them can take on a single wolf. in a counterargument, i will be giving you the list of those books i referred to you in about a day or two, there are at another house.

Answer by hmmmm
Submitted on 5/17/2004
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firedragons, i would love to stop the insults, if you could please do the same. i don't like it like this and i know i only make myself sound bad when i get vulgar. i am just frustrated that you have avoided some really good topics and focused on some that are not really note worthy (poodle for one). please understand pits make great pets,even around kids, and when you say not, you are helping damage this breeds already bad reputation. out of 6 pitbulls i have had, i have only seen one instance where one was aggressive towards a person.a guy was drunk and came at a friend of mine, took a swing and missed, my dog jumped up in the air,to eye level with the man and barked in his face,never touched him though.other then that i have had great experiences with these dogs as well as allot of other people have. it is wrong to make claims that all pits are dangerous,please man do some research, you will find this breed is extremely loyal and trustworthy.just out of curiosity, what breeds have you owned?

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/17/2004
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HMMMM, i agree with your first post there, not all pits are bad, the only bad pits are the ones with bad owners. a pit bull is a domesticated dog, just like any other dog, and if you treat it good, it will be good. now you have some dogs out of any breed that is a little more protective or territorial, but that is within any breed. it just depends on that certain animal. I know people who have pit bulls that are great pets. As for the second post, a majority of the time, a wolf pack makes a kill, but there is a lot of times that lone wolves do take down kills by themselves. but if they had the pack and it was close by, they would hunt together most likely.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/17/2004
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Oliver said, "This is to the simple idiot that said wolves and dogs are a different species. The domestic dogs scientific name is canis lupus familiaris. Dogs and wolves are the same species. Some domestic dogs are actually closer related to wolves than they are other domestic dogs.� Hmm..Oliver, you are a zoologist? Is this right? First of all, you seem to be a little confused about the scientific name. You have confused species and genus. A wolf is Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Subphylum: Vertebrata Class: Mammalia Order: Carnivora Family: Canidae Genus: Canis Species Canis Lupus Sub Species if using trinomial nomenclature: Canis lupus dingo The dog species binomial nomenclature is Canis familiaris Some choose the controversial trinomial nomenclature which would be: Canis lupus familiaris Most do not use this classification because there is some disagreement about the need to further classify. It's pretty easy to tell a wolf from a dog. The idea of the trinomial classification is that since wolves and dogs can mate and have viable offspring (wolf-dog hybrids); however, they don't mate in nature and require human intervention. THE FACT IS THAT ALL ANIMALS OF THE GENUS CANIS CAN MATE AND HAVE VIABLE OFFSPRING. http://www.mnh.si.edu/GeneticsLab/StaffPage/MaldonadoJ/PublicationsCV/Science_Dog_Paper.pdf This is pretty plain. Canis includes jackals, foxes, coyotes, and so on� The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service recommended that all Canis genus animals could be vacinated by using the same vacine. At present time, the FDA requires that dogs and wolves have vacines that have been tested separately. "Regulations in 9 CFR part 112 set packaging and labeling requirements for veterinary biological products, and APHIS requires a product�s label to identify the animals for which the product has been demonstrated to be effective and safe. Paragraph (b) of Sec. 113.209 requires a rabies vaccine to be tested for immunogenicity in each species for which it will be recommended." IN OTHER WORDS, DOGS AND WOLVES MUST BE TESTED SEPARATELY BY LAW. THEY ARE, BY LAW, CONSIDERED DIFFERENT SPECIES. By law, the Canis lupus is protected, but the dog, Canis familiaris is not protected (no law). The law makes the distinction. The dog is Canis familiaris http://www.mnh.si.edu/GeneticsLab/StaffPage/MaldonadoJ/PublicationsCV/Heredity_Dog_Paper_1999.pdf The DOG separated from the WOLF about 125,000 years ago and both have developed independently. http://www.mnh.si.edu/GeneticsLab/StaffPage/MaldonadoJ/PublicationsCV/Science_Dog_Paper.pdf A dog is NOT a wolf. The first term of the species name is capitalized the second term is not. There are also other sub's of wolves, including Canis lupus tundrarum, the artic wolf. If you just see Canis lupus and Canis Familiaris, the first is a wolf, the second is a dog. See http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dog Normally, you don't need to name Kingdom and do on ... we memorized this stuff in Zoology by Kings Play Chess On Fine Grained Sand. The subphylum is generally left out, and so on. Human parent taxa includes Animalia Chordata Vertebrata Mammalia Primates Hominidae Homo(genus name) sapiens Our species is Homo sapiens I don't know very much about plants, but plants often have another classification and a further name. I took botany also, but only the first course.

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/18/2004
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maremma sheepdog pastore abruzzese,cane da pastore maremmano- abruzzese portrait-this profusely coated sheepdog is thickly boned and solidly muscled enough to deter the desperate burglar and SLAY THE HUNGRY WOLF.KEEPING WITH HIS FLOCK GUARDING HERITAGE,HIS COAT MUST ALAYS BE WHITE;ANY ORANGE OR YELLOW COLORATION IS TOLERATED ON THE EARS ONLY.VERY IMPRESSIVE ARE THE LARGE SHOULDERS AND THICK LEGS.HEIGHT 25-29 INCHES WEIGHT 70-100 POUNDS. DEVELOPMENT-THE LONGER BODIED MOUNTAIN DELLER,THE ABRUZZESE AND THE SHORTER COATED SHEEPDOG,THE MAREMMANO,COMBINED TO FORM TODAY'S MAREMMA.A DIRECT DESCENDANT OF EARLY ASIAN GUARDS,THESE TWO BREEDS,EACH FROM SLIGHLY DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHIC REGIOPNS,CULMINATE IN THE MAREMMA. RECOGNITION-FCI-KCGB CHARACTER-ALTHOUGH NOT AS LARGE AS MANY OF ITS FELLOW FLOCK GUARDS,THE MAREMMA POSSESSES COMPARABLE ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH,AS WELL AS THE ABILITY TO FEIGN THE EXTRA 50 POUNDS IT LACKS.ITS ALERT ANDINDEPENDENT DISPOSITION PRESUPPOSE AN UNINHIBITED MAJESTIC AIR.AFLOCK GUARD OF IMPOSING DOMINANCE AND LIFELONG DEDICATION,THE BREED TAKES CONTROL OVER ITS FLOCK AND HUMAN FAMILY.AS A PET,HE IS NOT DOTING OR OVERLY DEMONSTRATIVE,BUT HIS LOYALTY IS SURELY UNDYING.THE MAREMMA IS TAME WITH MAN;BREEDERS HAVE ADAPTED THIS RUGGED WOLF-SLAYER INTO A MARVELOUS COMPANION,WITHOUT LOSING ITS EXTRAORDINARY WORKING ABILITIES. QUOTED FROM THE MINI-ATLAS OF DOG BREEDS PAGE 419 THAT PLAINLY STATES THIS BREED OF DOG [TWICE]TO BE ABLE TO KILL A WOLF ITS DOES NOT SAY WOLF PUP,OR 30LBS. WOLF BUT WOLF!IF NEAL DRAGON KNOWS MORE THAN THE EXPERTS THAT WROTE THIS BOOK HE SHOULD ARGUE WITH THEM![HE WOULD NO DOUBT]

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/18/2004
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maremma sheepdog pastore abruzzese,cane da pastore maremmano- abruzzese portrait-this profusely coated sheepdog is thickly boned and solidly muscled enough to deter the desperate burglar and SLAY THE HUNGRY WOLF.KEEPING WITH HIS FLOCK GUARDING HERITAGE,HIS COAT MUST ALAYS BE WHITE;ANY ORANGE OR YELLOW COLORATION IS TOLERATED ON THE EARS ONLY.VERY IMPRESSIVE ARE THE LARGE SHOULDERS AND THICK LEGS.HEIGHT 25-29 INCHES WEIGHT 70-100 POUNDS. DEVELOPMENT-THE LONGER BODIED MOUNTAIN DELLER,THE ABRUZZESE AND THE SHORTER COATED SHEEPDOG,THE MAREMMANO,COMBINED TO FORM TODAY'S MAREMMA.A DIRECT DESCENDANT OF EARLY ASIAN GUARDS,THESE TWO BREEDS,EACH FROM SLIGHLY DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHIC REGIOPNS,CULMINATE IN THE MAREMMA. RECOGNITION-FCI-KCGB CHARACTER-ALTHOUGH NOT AS LARGE AS MANY OF ITS FELLOW FLOCK GUARDS,THE MAREMMA POSSESSES COMPARABLE ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH,AS WELL AS THE ABILITY TO FEIGN THE EXTRA 50 POUNDS IT LACKS.ITS ALERT ANDINDEPENDENT DISPOSITION PRESUPPOSE AN UNINHIBITED MAJESTIC AIR.AFLOCK GUARD OF IMPOSING DOMINANCE AND LIFELONG DEDICATION,THE BREED TAKES CONTROL OVER ITS FLOCK AND HUMAN FAMILY.AS A PET,HE IS NOT DOTING OR OVERLY DEMONSTRATIVE,BUT HIS LOYALTY IS SURELY UNDYING.THE MAREMMA IS TAME WITH MAN;BREEDERS HAVE ADAPTED THIS RUGGED WOLF-SLAYER INTO A MARVELOUS COMPANION,WITHOUT LOSING ITS EXTRAORDINARY WORKING ABILITIES. QUOTED FROM THE MINI-ATLAS OF DOG BREEDS PAGE 419 THAT PLAINLY STATES THIS BREED OF DOG [TWICE]TO BE ABLE TO KILL A WOLF ITS DOES NOT SAY WOLF PUP,OR 30LBS. WOLF BUT WOLF!IF NEAL DRAGON KNOWS MORE THAN THE EXPERTS THAT WROTE THIS BOOK HE SHOULD ARGUE WITH THEM![HE WOULD NO DOUBT]

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/18/2004
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Haha! Loser! There are various breeds of wolfs and near wolfs. Some are very small, some are not really wolves, they are called wolves. The Aardwolf for example is called a wolf and it can even bite into fresh meat! Wolves generally weigh 80-160 pounds, but some in Europe are only 50 pounds or less and some in India are 200 pounds or more. LET ME REPEAT. SOUTHERN EUROPE WOLVES ARE VERY SMALL AND EVEN THEN, IT'S ILLEGAL TO ADVERTISE IN THE US A DOG AS A WOLF KILLER BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE! We have sheep herders in WY and other parts of the US. The dogs certainly don't kill any wolves there. Dude, the fact is that the Los Angelos Police Department uses the Presa to kill or neutralize the pit. Large poodles have killed pits. Healthy adults have killed pits with their bare hands, including women. No pit in the US has ever killed a healthy woman or man....Rabid wolves have killed both. One wolf in France alone killed more than one hundred people. As I have said, the size makes a difference. A very small wolf is not as tough as a large wolf. In WY, no wolves have been killed by dogs, but wolves have killed the sheep dogs. The wolf is a wild animal that has a serious bite...it can bite through a bone much larger than a cow's femur in five or six bites. A dog can chew on one for weeks. I know someone with a pit and their bone is still in one piece, except for the ends....there are NO studies that say a dog's bite is stronger than a wolf. And advertisement for a "wolf killer" is highly suspect. I know other hunters that have encountered wolves, and the wolves kill the dogs. The Discovery Channel said that the wolf bite PSI is at least 4 or five times greater than any dog. That answers that question.

Answer by Firedragons3
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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"The wolf has very strong jaws. The jaws of a wolf have a crushing pressure twice that of a large dog such as a German Shepherd. Wolves do not chew their food; they rip off chunks and swallow them whole. The remains of animals killed by wolves often later become meals for coyotes, foxes, birds, and other smaller creatures. In nature, nothing is wasted." Note the Discovery channel says it's at least four or five times as strong. "THE TWO MAIN NATURAL CAUSES OF WOLF DEATH ARE STARVATION, WHICH USUALLY KILLS PUPS, AND DEATH FROM OTHER WOLVES IN TERRITORY FIGHTS. INJURIES CAUSED BY THEIR PREY ALSO ACCOUNT FOR SOME DEATHS. (MOOSE, EVEN SICK ONES, ARE DANGEROUS!) KILLING BY HUMANS, BOTH LEGAL AND ILLEGAL, CAN ALSO BE HIGH IN SOME AREAS." " The gray wolf, Canis lupus, lives in the northern latitudes around the world. There are five subspecies of the gray wolf in North America. They are: 1. Canis lupus baileyi, or the Mexican wolf. 2. Canis lupus nubilus, the Great Plains or buffalo wolf. 3. Canis lupus occidentalis, the Rocky Mountain wolf or Mackenzie Valley wolf. 4. Canis lupus lycaon, the eastern timber wolf. 5. Canis lupus arctos, the Arctic wolf. " http://www.geocities.com/thesciencefiles/wolf/page.html So, as you can see ... the MAJOR cause of death IS fighing among themselves. MOST PITS don't die from fighting. They have easy lives and don't have to kill for their food. Wolves fight among themselves visciously. They must kill to survive. Pits just have to eat from their plate. It takes a real dude to think that a domestic animal such as the pit could even compare.

Answer by hmmmm
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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hey guys, still havent heard back from a hybrid kennel yet,but just got this e-mail from japan, hope it clears up the beleifs about pits in japan." Yes, the Japanese use pretty much the same stuff that dogmen use in the U.S. I have sent many dogs from top kennels to Japan personally including a son of Ch. Bigjohn x Sabre from WAC. The Japanese dogmen have invested $$ in top quality dogs from most of the big names in the last 3 decades. We have much of the same bloodlines as the U.S. and we have bloodlines from these foundation stock that has worked well for us for several generations in the pit. The tosa is a game breed as the pit. There are individuals who are game and not so game just as there are in the bulldogs. It may be true that there may be more percentage of dead game dogs in fastlane pits but the tosas are also quite good and are getting better every generation as they are used only for the pit here. There are no pits or tosas in Japan that are not used in the ring. Compare that to the U.S. and it is safe to say although there are larger total numbers of game pits in the U.S. perhaps due to the overall larger population of pits there. Japan has greater percentage of quality dogs." that came from the website bigdog listed earlier and i think it proves pitbulls are not for the poor and that they must be pretty respected over there.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Haha!! bigDOG says, "all big mouth.there has been adults killed by pit bulls not that is something to brag about.so what you have wolf love.its " Haha! You need another name! I cited the COURT report that said, in the criminal case, that NO PIT HAD EVER KILLED A HEALTHY ADULT WOMAN OR MAN !!!! It's up there, in the Presa Canario case. They argued that since this dog was unable to kill a healthy adult, there was no reason to suspect it was dangerous...except the state said that a Presa is NOT a pit and that the Presa is used to kill pits by the police They didn''t want the Presa to be compared to a little dog that kills mostly very young children (70% are under five or something) and can't kill a healthy adult!! I cited where cops have just kicked the pit with a boot and that was it. The pit ran off and attacked someone else. I have cited where poodles have whipped the ass of pits and where a man strangled one to death easily. I am certainly not afraid of that little dog! I would definitely not want to tangle with a 150 pound wolf. I know I would be injured, but I don't even worry about that short little pit bull!! The Presa IS FOUGHT in Japan. It can't beat the TOSA. The Tosa is a hound from hell. It has a droop around it's neck. Animals can't bit the neck. It's skin can be pull a foot from it's body. It gets superficial wounds but never serious ones. It is big...the champions often weigh 200 pounds or more! The Tosa whips all breeds of dogs and in the challenge ... the Presa is big enough to fight a Tosa, but not tough enough to survive. I read about a man that fought a Tosa. He tried to throw a Tosa off one time and grabbed the neck. The animal stretched away from the skin and bit his stomach...the jaws were massage and the man suffered severe trauma, but lived. His arm couldn't stretch the skin far enough and the dog was too strong. .

Answer by WOLF KILLER!
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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I have a sheep ranch in the foothills of the rocky mts.I will tell you a wolf by its self is a coward.They have killed our guard [flock]dogs but it was the pack that caught a lone dog.They are nothing alone.A great pyrenees can destroy one by its self.Wolves know this and will not try my dogs,one on one.Firedragon you have nothing but insults and arrogance.You are full of half-truths and ingrained lies.Your lengthy argument is childish.You think by insults you gain the advantage.I will not get into to a prolonged debate with a argumentative fool.Out here we hate wolves and wolf lovers so the goverment adjusters are'ntcalled very often.If a wolf was put in a pit with a fighting dog you better have some high walls,to keep it from running away!

Answer by in the know
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Firedragons has a lot of issues. Its plain to see he makes everything up, if you were to ask him if he's got any friends he would get out the phone directory and read out all the names. A presa wouldn't last against a gamebred pitbull, just not good enough. And its funny how that firegimp contradicts himself, if a single officer could scare a mean pit away with his boot, why would the police department need to bring a big mean dog into neutralize it. If you are going to lie to back up a poor argument, at least remember what your previous arguments are. As i said earlier, its clear firegimp has no clue what he talks about, i bet he was bullied at school, is it possible to post pictures on this site, if so, would you post one of yourself firegimp, so we can all laugh at you even more, FOOL

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Ken, i didnt think that was you writing that, just some immature dummy. also WOLFKILLER, a great pyrenees cannot destroy a wolf one on wolf, and wolves are not cowards. many wolves go off by thmemselves and live until they find a mate. many lone wolves have killed single dogs, the dogs have no chance. here is a interesting article of six wolves attacking 11 dogs. brought to you online by Pinedale Online -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wolf Pack Attacks Dogs 3 Dogs injured in Upper Green by Rob Shaul "It was about 12:30 a.m. when they hit camp and got into the dogs," recalls Jasper Ingalls of Riverton. Mr. Ingalls, 18, and his brother Spencer, 14, were trying to sleep inside an old bus their family uses for a cow camp in the Upper Green last Wednesday night when six wolves from the Teton wolf pack entered camp and attacked their eleven dogs. Jasper hadn't been able to sleep all night. He and Spencer knew the pack was in their area. Earlier on Wednesday they had seen fresh tracks and they rode through their herd of 600-700 cows late in the evening to check things over. During that evening ride Jasper fired two shots into the air hoping that it would scare any wolves in the area away from the cattle. But the wolves were near camp that night when he turned in. He could hear them howling incessantly, and so could the eleven dogs outside. "One of 'em would howl and the dogs would go crazy," he continues, "It's hard to sleep with the dogs going crazy." Then, right around 12:30 a.m., a wolf howled ten yards from the window nearest Jasper's bed. "That got my adrenaline going." Jasper hopped up, and without getting dressed, opened the door to the bus. "Right when I opened the door I saw one of the wolves chasing one of our pups," he says. The pup was headed right for Jasper and the safety of the bus. It hopped past the young man, through the door, and into the bus, with the wolf hot in pursuit. "I didn't know if the wolf was going to come in behind her or not," said Mr. Ingalls, who quickly shut the door just in case. Outside, the wolves were attacking the rest of the Ingalls' dogs. Jasper quickly threw on a pair of pants and his boots, found a small, mini-mag flashlight, and grabbed the 12-guage shotgun with an 18" barrel and pistol grip the Ingalls keep in camp for protection. He opened the door, stepped outside and shined the flashlight towards the fight just 20 yards away. He saw at least four of the wolves on top of one of his dogs, "Freckles." "Our dogs were around the wolves, biting them, but the wolves weren't paying attention to the other dogs. They might turn around and chase one for a second, but then they'd go back to chewing on the one dog," said Mr. Ingalls. All six of the wolves in the camp were black, and Jasper says there's "not a chance" they can be mistaken for dogs. He describes them as about twice as tall as a normal dog. Their tail is "really long" he continues, about as long as the rest of their body. "They can be really lean looking and they have a real long nose on them. Take a dog and times it by two." Jasper fired three quick shots into the air and five of the wolves "disappeared" into the surrounding dark timber. But one of them didn't. This brazen wolf stood still, watching Jasper and the downed dog. The lone wolf stood broadside, illuminated by the flashlight. After an uneasy moment, this wolf walked slowly into the timber, following the rest of the pack. Freckles had been "bit in the gut" said Mr. Ingalls, and was bleeding. In addition, four other dogs were missing. Interestingly, the wolves didn't bother the Ingalls' horses, which were hobbled nearby. Back inside the bus, Jasper used a satellite phone to call Dubois and leave a message for his father, Dan, who was enroute to Riverton for a meeting the next morning. Then Jasper and Spencer saddled their horses and put the rest of the dogs on the wolves' trail. Their intention was to chase the pack out of their grazing allotment. Jasper used a wolf receiver to determine that the pack was the Teton pack, and not the Gros Ventre pack. He says one wolf in each pack is radio collared and the signals from the collars have different frequencies so the packs can be identified. Using the dogs and the receiver, the Ingalls brothers followed the pack for 2-3 hours. The wolves headed towards the common allotments leased by the Upper Green River Cattlemen's Association. The two brothers rode back into their camp around 4:30 a.m. On the way in they heard from their father Dan, who had received the message Jasper left and turned back from his trip to Riverton. The Ingalls use small, handheld radios to communicate in the backcountry, and Dan raised his sons on the radio at about 4 a.m. One of the missing four dogs was waiting for the Ingalls in camp. Two more showed up the next morning and the final missing dog was found alive at another camp. In all, the wolves bit three dogs, and one, Freckles, went to the vet. Back in camp, Dan Ingalls called Upper Green River Cattlemen's Association Albert Sommers of Daniel to warn him that the wolves were headed their way. While chasing the wolves, Jasper and Spencer saw about 50 head of the association's cows "bunched up like they were sheep" as if they were under attack from the pack. When Albert Sommers finally reached the association's rider, Bruce Wolford, later that morning to warn him about the wolves, they were already in a sagebrush meadow near the camp. In just a few hours the pack had traveled approximately 10 miles from the Ingalls' camp to the association's camp. Dan Ingalls was struck at how the wolves "showed no fear of people at all. "He notes that the pack came right into camp, and attacked the dogs near and in between several vehicles. Current rules allow ranchers to shoot wolves that are attacking their livestock on private land, but they cannot kill wolves that are attacking their dogs. "I think they've got enough wolves," says Dan, "They should change the rules so if wolves come that close to the camp you should be able to shoot them." He notes that if you found a person in your yard killing your dog you'd be able to take some action and wonders why wolves should be granted more rights then people. "In all honesty, nobody thought the wolves would be going after dogs quite this much," said Mike Jimenez, Project Leader for Wolf Recovery in Wyoming for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Ranchers may shoot a wolf caught attacking livestock on private ground, but not on a public grazing allotment," says Mr. Jimenez. Ranchers and others cannot shoot a wolf attacking a dog no matter where the attack is occurring - private land or public. Mr. Jimenez said that if a wolf pack were caught attacking a dog twice, one of the wolves from the pack would be relocated. If the pack is caught attacking a dog a third time, another wolf from the pack will be removed, and on and on until the attacks stop, says Mr. Jimenez. He adds that there are currently one adult, and five yearlings in the Teton Pack, and five adults, five yearlings in the Gros Ventre pack. "I don't know" continues Mr. Ingalls, "I'm just glad their not killing my cattle. I don't think they've figured that out yet. When they do, it'll be messy." (According to Mr. Jimenez, wolves have killed one calf in the Upper Green so far this summer.) Dan says the wolves are killing antelope in the Upper Green, "and the antelope are going crazy - they've done things I've never seen before." One night Mr. Ingalls was driving slowly back to camp when a bunch of 60 antelope crossed the road right in front of his truck and began circling him. "They circled me three or four times like they didn't want to leave me. They were scared. I figured there was a pack after them." On Wednesday, the Ingalls boys bumped into some guests of the Darwin Ranch, who were fishing. They had found some wolf tracks, says Jasper, and were really excited and hoped they'd get to see some wolves. "There's a lot of people who think a wolf is just a dog," concluded Jasper, "They're not scared of them and they should be." See The Archives for past articles. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright � 1999, 2000 The Sublette County Journal All rights reserved. Reproduction by any means must have permission of the Publisher. The Sublette County Journal, PO Box 3010, Pinedale, WY 82941 Phone 307-367-3713 Publisher/Editor: Rob Shaul editor@scjonline.com

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Haha! (In the Know) said: "Firedragons has a lot of issues. Its plain to see he makes everything up, if you were to ask him if he's got any friends he would get out the phone directory and read out all the names. A presa wouldn't last against a gamebred pitbull, just not good enough. And its funny how that firegimp contradicts himself, if a single officer could scare a mean pit away with his boot, why would the police department need to bring a big mean dog into neutralize " They were different articles. The policeman just kicked the pit and the "fighting" pit scampered off and fought tried to bite someone else. I cited the source. Even an IDIOT such as yourself could call the LA Police and talk to them. Many of these drug dealers will have MANY pits on site. Even if they are not life threatening to an adult, they bite and can be annoying. So, they bring in a couple Presas and that is it for all the pits. I cited the OFFICIAL criminal deposition and court case. It was tried in California. If you don't like it, you sould a little bi polar. You believe in something that is not true and you can't support it and you become angry when others whip your butt. What can I say? Every scientific authority agrees that a wolf bite is many times more powerful than a large dog. The larger the dog, the harder the bite. Pits don't bite all that hard because they are small dogs. I hunt and I know animals. I don't deal with wolves...you have to have a special permit and I don't have one. I have known people that hunted them in Alaska where they can sometimes be hunted. I know that all hunters look for wolf sign because they want to protect their dogs. If you actually own a pit bull, you should know that they are not that powerful and they are a small dog. There's a huge difference. Ever try to control a Mastiff? I have never actually touched a Tosa, but I have seen them. They are monsters. I have cited English references that showed the pit was bred to be a SMALL dog. They wanted a fighting dog that would not be expensive to keep up. The average person knows most of this. It's just the crazies that won't accept reason. If you read the court case, they discussed the look of the Presa and the differences between the Presa and the pit. The Presa is immensely powerful compared to the pit. It's much larger too and bigger teeth. Mastiffs were called "dogs of war" by Shakespear and they were used against calvary ... they would rip soldiers off horses and kill them. Pits kill very young children, elderly, and the disabled. They have killed many in the US, but ALL have been very young kids, very old or disabled people.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Hmmm said, "just spoke to a retired lapd officer, i had asked him about the presas being used by the dept. to neutralize pitbulls, he laughed and said " the good old fashion bullet would be cheaper and more efficient, it wouldn't be in the depts. interests to use them for those reasons." HAHA! Yea, retired and senile. The court case is public record and the District Attorney mentioned this in the deposition. THat's a fact. You have a lot of this "unsupported experience" that contradicts facts and common sense, but lo. Haha! If you took three pit bulls, they wouldn't be able to kill a small deer for food. A small ten year old boy was attacked by three "killer" pits used by a drug dealer to protect his stash, and the three of these bad dogs together couldn't kill the kid. He was seriously injured in the attack. Think about wolves killing a moose and eating it. Think about pit bulls trying to kill a baby deer and not succeeding.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Oh, the website for my last post is: http://bessasandackerman.com/p/0054.php Yea, the pits are hell on babies and children....and elderly and the disabled. "Man sentenced in attack by his pit bull on little girl A man who brought a pit bull to Salt Lake City's Liberty Park last year -- where it ripped the face of a 3-year-old girl -- might as well have brought a loaded gun, a 3rd District Court judge said Monday." http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Apr/04272004/utah/161051.asp The fact is that these dogs attack babies and small children and don't have the crushing power to kill. A wolf that attacks the head kills. The skull is crushed! The pit bull has small teeth that can inflict harm but they are not powerful enough to kill game to eat, except probably small rabits and hedgehogs! Even an 88 year of woman, bitten over 80% of her body and is just fine! Tell me something, do you really think a wolf would have the same effect? I don't think so. They kill moose and large game...pits kill babies and very small children and can't kill even medium game or most feeble humans. "Pit bull ravages 88-yr-old woman, covers 80% of body with bites AZ A boarder's pit bull severely mauled an 88 year old woman when she attemptedto give it water..." [Arizona Republicl] http://radio.weblogs.com/0107233/2003/06/06.html Hey, dide!!! What were you saying about "Killer Pits?" Do you mean, baby killer pits?

Answer by GreatdaneXXX
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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gosh...180 lb. wolf...sure. the facts are in jaw power pits, rots, akitas, cane corso, and American bulldogs...in fact, many mastiff or mastiff-like breeds jaw power is over 2000 almost 3000 psi. it's already been tested. and all the breeds (and more)i mentioned would beat 99.9% of the alpha male wolves out there. I saw a video in Japan where a big 130 Akita positivly took apart a grey wolf, who weighed about 100 lbs. and was considered large for a grey wolf male adult.The wolf barely got away from the Akita with his ass in tact. It finally broke free and was able to run away as the low to the ground, heavy rhino of an Akita couldn't catch him and typically Akita, didn't bother to chase much and even after all the fighting this Japanese bad boy acted like fighting the wolf was fun. He was wagging his tail and running around barking(which they usually don't get vocal)

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Actually, Neal used some good information and has some good insite into all this. There are some people out there with very poor judgement and they seem to have nonsense for brains. After the first post, they have read enough and they simply "know" what they want to know. Pits could not live in the wild. They couldn't hunt and kill game. I have seen deer seriously injure humans .. and wolves take them on every week. Pit bulls are not strong enough to kill even a deer. It's harder to kill a deer than an adult human, and yet pits can't kill healthy adult humans. They can barely kill children and elderly. For example, below SEVEN pit bull fighting dogs attack an 82 year old woman...she fought them off for ten minutes. Seven pit bulls attack, kill 82-year-old woman Saturday, December 13, 2003 Posted: 9:46 AM EST (1446 GMT) CITRA, Florida (AP) -- Seven pit bulls escaped from their owner's home and mauled an 82-year-old neighbor to death Friday. " http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/12/13/pitbull.attack.ap/ Two pit bulls combined couldn't kill a VERY elderly man in a wheel chair!!! "Two pit bulls attack elderly man in Palatine" By Michael Puente Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Thursday, May 13, www.dailyherald.com/news_story.asp?intid=3812015 Even small, older women can kick the ass of multiple pits: Pit bulls attack Oildale woman Monday afternoon, sheriff's reports indicate Deavers two pit bulls jumped the fence and attacked Dorita Mosley, 52, who was waiting at a corner for her daughter to get off the school bus. Elayne Hesse is credited with saving Dorita Mosley's life. She attacked the pit bulls and chased them off, and is critical of the way Deavers was controlling his dogs. " http://www.kget.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=059A83BE-7C72-4CFE-8756-BEACC14DC2F4 The fact is that many people in incapble of defending themselves. They will just stand there until they can't stand and then lay there as they are being killed. Other people fight and pits are easily run off. If you see a fight, the handlers easily handle them even when they are in a frenzy. Listen, don't hate the messenger, dude. Hate yourself for being so stupid. Hate yourself for having no common sense. If you have heard enough, that's the problem. You don't listen to facts.

Answer by In the know
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Firegimp, have you ever heard of a Catch dog. These are always pitbulls, bandoggs and American bulldogs, they are used in the sport of hog hunting. You know the wild hog which is a ferocious and extremely powerful beast, can weigh around 300lb. These catch dogs don't work well in packs because they are too competitive, and fights occur, so they are used on their own or in pears. Can you imagine the strength it would take to subdue such a creature, but what am i thinking, 'a pit bull can't even take down a small deer, what an absolute pointless fool you are firegimp. I think you need a hobby, or a girl, and not the ones in magazines gimp, ha ha. I can just imagine how much you are hated by people who are unfortunate to know you. I'm sure you were bullied though, but you probably deserved it gimp. Its funny that out of all the nonsense you have posted you haven't shown any level of intelligentsia, but then again why would someTHING that calls ITSELF firedragons have any to begin with? You can talk down the pit bull all you want but the fact is, its the best pound for pound fighter out of them all, and any alpha wolf would get its throat torn out by any gamebred Pit.

Answer by hmmmm
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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i would love to know what motivates you firedragon.what exactly is the purpose of all this non-stop pitbull insults. why can't good people own this breed without someone assuming we are criminals,or that all of us use these dogs for the wrong reasons.the truth is many of these dogs are in good homes with responsible owners, but we still have to deal with people like yourself along with the people who use these dogs for the wrong reasons. it really makes me sick to think of how the general public looks at my dogs without knowing a thing about them.i have to walk my dogs in the woods just so people don't think im trying to intimidate them thanks to people like yourself. the attacks on children are horrible, but so is using these attacks as a weapon of your argument, because either way we argue (can they? or can't they?)we lose, and i would rather not even think about whether my dog can kill a child or not.thats a sick morbid thought that only someone who shouldn't own a dog would think of.what kind of person are you?really?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Hey, wolves kill elk, moose, and even a 2000 pound bison. Oh, wait...seven pit bulls killed an 80 something woman!! Wow. Pit bulls are .... pretty awesome!!! Will new Yellowstone wolves kill bison? The three wolf packs from 1995 demonstrated well that they could kill elk, moose, deer, bighorn sheep, and mountain goats; but it was mostly elk they killed. This pack, the Half-way Pack (I don't know if it will be renamed the "Nez Perce" pack) was captured in British Columbia while feeding on a bison it had killed. http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/WillnewYellow.html Oh, if seven fighting pits can kill an 80 something year old woman, SIX wolves killed a full grown steer ... maybe even less, these were feeding. Wolves kill steer in Madison By PERRY BACKUS Montana Standard ENNIS � Jim Nelson nearly had wolves at his doorstep Tuesday morning. When feeding cattle in a nearby pasture in the Bear Creek area of the Madison Valley, Nelson was surprised to see six gray wolves feeding on a 650-pound yearling steer. That marked the fourth confirmed wolf kill in the Madison Valley in less than a week and local ranchers are hoping that federal officials can stop the depredation. http://www.montanaforum.com/rednews/2004/03/04/build/wildlife/wolfkills.php?nnn=5 They are going to kill three wolves to cut back some on the depredation if possible. However, even ONE wolf can bring down a large animal!!! Idaho wolves kill some cows -- the first Idaho wolf depredation in a long time 7-28-98 "The Post Register has reported that a yearling female from the Moyer Basin pack was involved in the depredation of a cow and three calves near the remote ghost town of Cobalt, deep in the Salmon River Mountains of central Idaho. It is possible that other members of the pack were involved. The 83-pound uncollared wolf was trapped right on top of the cow's carcass, according to Layne Bangerter of Wildlife Services in Boise. The female wolf was radio-collared and released near Fish Lake about 50 miles to the north in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness in an area with no livestock." http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/idahopredfirst98.htm For you punks that talk about fighting and have never even been hunting or in the country, MOST farmers KNOW that wolves beat hell out of any dog, herder or not. TWO wolves are terrorizing the countryside here!!! Wolves kill cattle in southern Wyoming Associated Press � Jan. 8, 2004 WAMSUTTER, Wyo. � Wolves are being blamed for killing several cattle in southern Wyoming, and federal officials have authorized killing up to two wolves thought to be involved. The beef cattle were killed by one or two wolves near Wamsutter, which is along Interstate 80 and at the southern end of the area wolves are thought to roam in Wyoming, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Two ranchers reported having cattle attacked by wolves. http://espn.go.com/outdoors/conservation/news/2004/0108/1703592.html WOLVES KILL A COW AND MULE By S. C. Turnbo Mr. Dave Dunlap, who has lived in the Carrollton hollow in Boone County, Ark., since 1854, said to me one day at his home, "You say did I ever know of wolves attacking and killing large stock in the Carrollton hollow. If you call a mule and a cow large stock I have. Their ravages on stock was terrible. They would invade the stock lots and destroy sheep and calves. They would also attack hogs and kill or wound them before we would interfere and drive them away. But the incidents of their killing hogs, sheep and calves were tame affairs to what these vicious animals were able to accomplish when they wanted to. I well recollect that on a certain night a pack of wolves killed a white pided cow 3 years old in less than 200 yards of the Carrollton hollow schoolhouse and devoured half of her before they left. The cow belonged to my father Jim Dunlap and he sent word to the neighbors to tie up their dogs for he was going in on the wolves with strychnine. He put plenty of poison in the remaining carcass of the cow and in a few days we counted nine dead wolves lying in the near vicinity of the schoolhouse. A mule 3 years old that belonged to Jesse Dunlap and Jim Buckly was killed one night by wolves in the hollow one mile above the schoolhouse. The women found what was left of the mule lying in 300 yards of their cabin. Evidence showed that the mule had struggled hard against the attack from the hungry pack but was finally overpowered and killed and almost eaten up. The mule had been worked in the plow all day and was turned out at night to graze till morning and was killed that night. http://thelibrary.springfield.missouri.org/lochist/turnbo/V11/ST312.html AS FOR THE DOGS KILLING THE HOGS, POST THE SITE. I DON'T BELIEVE IT. I have hunted hogs and the dog doesn't stand a chance. The hog rushed with its nose against the ground and it's too strong and powerful for the dog. If the hunter doesn't shoot, the dog is dead! Brain dude.

Answer by hmmmmm
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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your article talks about training dogs to locate, these are hounds, not the catch dogs.the catch dogs are released AFTER the hogs are located by the hounds.also it says nothing about training the dogs to stay away from the hog. that is an outright lie like all the others. if youd like a video contact chaos kennels of Illinois, they have dogs out of blue bubba aka beezlebub(greatest catch dog ever) catching hogs. why would they call them "catch" dogs if they had to be trained to stay away? you can also contact hogdog kennels, not sure but they should have video also.next your gonna bring up the protective vest again because you don't read my post but these vest are almost never used in the wild because they hinder the dog,they are only used in organized competitions in the south to show of there dogs ability"s. if you don't want to buy the tape call and ask for frank,he will tell you all about it,i wouldn't tell him your beliefs about pitbulls though if i were you!!!!you can get his number off of the web under his kennel name.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Only complete idiots own pit bulls. The lobby group for pit bulls showed three pit bulls across the country. They tried to demonstrate that the pits were not dangerous...some child set them off and they ended up mauling the child. Pit bull owners are stupid. The problem with some adults...there is something wrong with them. Only a fool would leave a child around a large animal that could do injury. It wouldn't make sense. Roy Horn also lied about Tigers. He had raised the tiger from birth and it tried to kill him. In 1987 and 88, pit bulls were responsible for 67% of the deaths in the US from dogs. After that, they were banned in most cities. ANYONE that thinks it's OK to have pit bulls around children is a complete and disgusting moron. It's not just that they think their little brain is better than the combined scientists of MOST countries in the WEST and many in the EAST ...that have outlawed pits in cities ...it's that even a dog that is not dangerous, a large dog such as a mastiff, should not be around children. The dog can kill them in a second. Pit bulls have been shown to be unpredictable. Anyone that says they aren't is a moron. Anyone that has a pit around children should be arrested for child endangerment. NO major insurance company will insure a house with a pit bull. So, you are a loser living in an apartment or you are taking an unnecessary risk. LOSER! You endanger your neighbors and everyone in your family. You are like the losers that take ecstacy ... one dose can damage your brain forever, and yet these losers rationalize. Losers always rationalize. There are a million dogs that people can own. Anyone that chooses a pit opens himself to scrutiny by police and the hostility of the neighbors and a risk to children. So, LOSER! What is wrong with you?

Answer by Muscleman
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Pit bulls are pets and there's a reason why wolves can't be pets. Studies show wolves are highly more intelligent then domestic dogs, also wolves endurance is greater then dogs. Wolves go through days, sometimes weeks without food. Yet, they're strong enough to follow migrating herds and bring down ungulates twice or triple their size. Wolves kill other wolves, coyotes, bears, mountain lions, lynx and other large predators because of territory and food competition. Wolves kill domestic dogs regularly. Put a pack of pit bulls in the wild living under the same circumstances & conditions that wolves live under and I assure you, wolves will eliminate the pack of pit bulls for the same reasons it rids other predators. Pit bulls cannot survive in the wild with wolves because wolves will kill them. In the wild, Wolves have no tolerance for dogs including pitbulls. Wolves are born killers because it has to survive under extreme conditions. The wild is an unforgiven place unlike your home where pit bulls lives next to a fire place with food provided everyday for them to eat.

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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so what a pack of wolves killed some cow.and ate her too!HOW GAME!I BET THE COW HAD SOME HUGE TEETH.A 11 MONTH OLD PIT BULL PUP KILLED A 2000LBS. BULL.THE OWNER SHOT HIM FOR IT.AND ITS ONE REASON I DON'NTRAISE PITS AND SELL THEM ANYMORE.HAVING 5 POUNDS OF MEAT TORN FROM ITS FACE THE BULL DIED FROM BLOOD LOSS AND SHOCK.THE FARMER AND OWNER OF THE PIT HAD LEFT WHEN HIS BULL BROKE INTO HIS FENCED YARD.HIS WIFE WAS AWAKENED BY THE BULL FALLING INTO THE HOUSE.WHEN SHE WENT OUTSIDE WITH A BROOM SHE BEAT THE DOG AND HE WOULD NOT QUIT.THE FARMER [OWNER OF THE PIT]SHOT AND KILLED THE DOG WHEN HE CAME HOME.I TRIED TO WARN THIS GUY NOT TO LET HIS DOG RUN AT LARGE BUT HE DID'NTLIKE TO ''KEEP A DOG UP''[THE FENCE AROUND THE HOUSE WAS TO KEEP STOCK OUT OF THE YARD NOT DOGS IN]

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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Hmmm says, "jacks says "they just don't go around and shot dogs" no they just let lose these trained attack dogs, right...lol. last year 33 dogs were shot and killed by the lapd, NONE were killed or even attacked by a police k9. call them yourself to verify this lier." Haha! Idiot! I cited the official site to find the court case. It's official and it's part of the record. You are the liar! Haha! Loser! Haha! punk. The fact is that these little dogs are weak, compared to wolves that kill and eat everything on the North American Continent. The court case clearly stated that NO PIT bull had ever killed a healthy adult, male or female. It also stated that Presa Canario were used to "neutralize" pits. You are the liar. Give me the telephone number you called and the person you spoke with....for 3 cents a minute, I will make that call too.

Answer by hmmm
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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lmao firedragons, we've been thru all that already, do you really want to look stupid again?i could state every lie included in your little story(well writin though)but we went threw this already.and in 87 and 88 it was rots and pitbulls combined not to mention pitbull is a general term like lab or retriever that applies to 7 breeds including the a.p.b.t.why is it don't you remember? come on man, why don't you stop and think about how bad your'e looking right now. i doubt one single person really respects what you say.anyway you have to do better then that for me to continue.i don't have time to keep discussing old news you were wrong on before. id reread everything before writing again to avoid more humility that you know you feel but won't admit.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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Muscleman is right. The pit bull does not have to kill animals four times his size to eat. Wolves can go a couple weeks without eating and still have their strength. Ever seen how a pit gets hot and pants a lot? I would not allow wolves around children. Their nature is savage. I would not allow pit bulls around children. They are small dogs, but they can be very excitable and turn deadly. As I have said, only a moron would own a pit bull. A complete loser. Call your insurance agent and ask him. People 20 or 30 years ago thought that the pit bull was imposing because they didn't understand animals. Now that people know the pit bull is just a little dog that can't fight a healthy adult, they are looking for stronger animals! "A Good Dog Ruined The breed is new to many people � including Dr. Randy Lockwood, vice president of research with the Humane Society of the United States. He said that the most common killers have changed over the years, with German shepherds being replaced by pit bulls in the 1980s, followed by rottweilers, and he said he feared that unless presa Canario breeders were careful, their dog could be the next. According to Lockwood, there was not a single fatal rottweiler attack in the United States from 1979 until 1992, but since then the dog has emerged as the leading killer. Like the presa Canario, it is a dog that was bred as a protector � intelligent and fiercely loyal � but people looking for an animal more imposing than the pit bull focused on bringing out the more aggressive side of its character."

Answer by From England
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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I've read through this site and there's something which keeps jumping out at me, something very stupid, something very annoying, yes you guessed, its that waste of breath Firedragons. Why are you describing the pit bull as if it where a jack russell terrier you idiot! Its world renowned for its fighting attributes, but you know this already, you are just a very sad individual who likes to get a reaction from people, anyway I'mdone writing about that TRAMP now. I just want say to Muscle man, who probably has a muscle between the ears, that its pointless saying that a pit bull couldn't survive in the wild because that obvious, brain dead! The wolf has evolved to do one thing, survive, much the same, the pit bull has been bred over generations to be a fighter, so there is no doubt a game pit would beat a wolf. There was a man near where i live who owned a bandogg, it was awesome, he no longer has it though because it was destroyed, cos it got over a fence into a field and tore out a poor cows throat, this is fact. And the dog in question was no bigger than an Irish pit bull.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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England, you call Muscle an idiot, but your lack of knowledge surprises me. The pit is world renowned for being a killer of children and the infirm. That's the problem. It hasn't killed healthy adults. It ALSO is only known by fools as a "fighter" The PRESA and other big dogs were originally fought in England and people started breeding dogs to be small to save money. The pit is a SMALL fighting dog. So, the MAIN idea was to breed a small dog that would persistently fight so that the bets could continue. If they wanted tough fighters, they would have bred lions. No intelligent person doubts that the pit is not the toughest dog or even a danger to healthy adults (except by bites) I don't like being bit, but I have never seen a pit that would scare me .. they are too small; however, I have seen 200 plus pound dogs that would scare anyone. Obviously, the idiot that talks about pits being used to kill boars when they have trouble killing 80 year olds and children fight them off ... demonstrates the pit bull fantasy. The pit bull is an animal that is small and persists but is not powerful enough to kill wild animals (except small rabbits, squirrels, and so on); obviously, it's a lot harder to kill a deer than an old woman or a poodle. Some dogs in a pack might hunt a piglet down and kill it when it is the size of a rat, but only an idiot would believe that these animals can kill dangerous game when they often can't kill even children. They can't run well, they become very weak when they don't eat, and they are easily kicked out of the way. For example, an elderly woman was attacked by four pit bulls, thrown to the ground and bitten about the head. They ripped off her ear and part of her scalp, but didn't have the strength to penetrate the skull. They were just bites. She fought them off, got up and drove OFF!!! Now, how many wolves would let this happen? She never would have gotten up. Which has more PSI ... a wolf that bites through the spine of a large animal such as a steer or moose and crushes its skull or a four dogs that rip some skill? Haha! I guess I won't have to shoot the next boar, I will let the four pits bite off its ear and hope I can get my meat anyway. Haha! 4 Pit Bulls Maul FPL Meter Reader POSTED: 12:01 p.m. EDT June 3, 2003 UPDATED: 5:51 a.m. EDT June 4, 2003 PORT ST. JOHN, Fla. -- A 56-year-old Florida Power and Light meter reader is in critical condition after being attacked by several pit bull dogs as she walked through a Brevard County, Fla. neighborhood, according to Local 6 News. 4 Pitbulls Maul FPL Meter Reader Police said that the woman was mauled by the dogs in the 7000 block of Amsbury Road at about 8 a.m. Animal Control officials believe the dogs apparently jumped a 4-foot fence at a home in the neighborhood and then began biting her head. The victim was able to somehow break free from the dogs and ran to her truck, Local 6 News reported. She drove away from the scene but eventually stopped a short time later, got out of the truck and began to scream. Joe Fisher saw her and administered first aid. "I didn't want to lay her down because when I pulled her hair back on one side, her ear was completely missing and it was dangling in what hair she had left," Fisher said. Local 6 News reported that the woman lost her right ear and a large piece of her scalp. " http://www.local6.com/news/2245483/detail.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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Hahaha! Loser HMMMMMM....I have read the entire article. You just go from some pit bull site. THERE IS NO DOUBT that pits accounted for 67% of the deaths in 87 and 88 and this was used in the CDC article as well. You are dumb because the fact was, this "article" by the CDC was taken from scientific sources, was witten about bites (there are not many pits and so they have fewer bites than say...miniature poodles ... but they attack persistently and kill babies, the infirm, and small children. You just talk dude. Get on with your life and stop lying and living a fantasy. The pit is a baby killer, not a bison eater! It sure doesn't scar me and the owners are idiots. If a policeman sees one, he thinks drug dealer or moron.

Answer by Lockwood
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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I have read though this with much amusement.I have been involved in wolf study and breeding for 25 years.First of all wolves do kill large animals,but only to eat them.They do not take on the largest moose just to be killing something.Thats never their first choice.A lone wolf is not going to risk its health killing something that fights back hard.be it a dog,mule deer,moose or whatever.The jaws of a wolf are powerful,but dogs have been bred for aggressive traits for centuries.Two thousand years ago,people were taking mean dogs and chaining them to their front doors.This has been going on for generations.This is one of the major differences between wolf and dog.We have selected our dogs to be far more aggressive,and far less in control of their aggression,than their wild counterparts.By contrast humans have bred dogs to fight to the death.When dogfighters say that these dogs love to fight or that they're just doing what God intended that's nonsense.We have bred out the off button that controlled aggression.So if a wolf was to fight a fighting breed,it would have to be forced upon him.He would not prevail because his mental makeup is to survive,not do man's bidding.When wolves kill dogs in the wild it is a pack over territory.A lone wolf would not bother with a dog that it could'ntkill without much of a fight.Wolves and part wolves are only illegle in nine states.[to own]The real reason you never see wolves in the pit[in spite of being common in some areas]Is because they are not nearly aggressive enough to prevail.

Answer by hmmmm
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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lmfao, you fool. i see now what this is all about.this isn't about wolves,tosas, pitbulls, or anything else on here. this is all about a pathetic little man who loses every confrontation in life, and to make himself feel better about being such a worthless waste of sperm, he gets his thrills out of insulting his greatest fears over the Internet so the sissy little girl inside of him can't get hurt. the only thing you have proved is that there really is a bigger numbskull then george bush. but hey he's president so maybe someday if you try real hard maybe you could get a job.i really hope that no kids live around you, because i bet in your free time, you do things to them that give you even more "power thrills". you truly are a simple minded pathetic loser. tell me something, do you feel better yet tuff guy, or are you going to victimize some more animals and people. hey if you really want to talk pitbulls etc..start showing a little proof instead of your non-expert, second-person, quotes that anyone like yourself can put on the net. and yes the c.d.c. disagrees with you, along with every single government agency. i don't need to prove this, you prove yourself wrong by contradicting your own words later.but like i said this isn't about who's right,it's all about your own insecuritys. i see thru this act!!HAHA loser

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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There is a major misconception among the uninformed about various activities, including hunting and historical events such as "bear baiting." Somehow, people thought that the dogs would attack a bear chained or staked to a corner of the arena and then kill it; this is a major fapu! First of all, whimpy dogs such as pits are too small to do more than annoy a bear. So, the bear would kill the dogs all night and then retire. Dogs were plentiful and cheap. Bears were rare and precious. Later, braggarts and big heads such as pit bull owners would say how the pit bull would kill bulls and bears. The pit never killed the bear, and no number of pits would serve to bring the bear down. The bear could literally kil the dogs all night. The bull could be grabbed by the nose, but the dog could not kill him. This was up to the butcher. With bull baiting, the butcher would take portions of the meat after he had KILLED the bull (not the dog) and give to the crowd. "Bear-baiting Bear-baiting in the 17th century, engraving, 1796Bear-baiting was a popular entertainment from at least the 11th century in which a bear is secured to a post and then attacked by a number of dogs. In the most well known form there were purpose built arenas for the entertainment, called in England bear-gardens, consisting of a circular high fenced area, the pit, and raised seating for spectators. A post would be set in the ground towards the edge of the pit and the bear chained to it, either by the leg or neck. The dogs would then be set on it, being replaced as they tired or were wounded or killed. For a long time the main bear-garden in London was the Paris Garden at Southwark. In England, from the 16th century, many "herds" of bears were maintained for baiting. Henry VIII was a fan and had a pit constructed at Whitehall. Elizabeth I was also fond of the entertainment; it featured regularly in her tours. In 1575 a baiting display for her had thirteen bears, and when an attempt was made to ban baiting on Sundays she over-ruled Parliament. A variation was "the whipping of a blinded bear" and certain other animals were also baited, especially bulls but also on one curious occasion a pony with an ape tied to its back was baited and a spectator described that "...with the screaming of the ape, beholding the curs hanging from the ears and neck of the pony, is very laughable". With bulls, the animal's nose was usually blown full of pepper to enrage the animal before the baiting. The bull was often allowed a hole in the ground, into which to thrust his vulnerable nose and lips. A variant of bull-baiting was "pinning the bull"; specially-trained dogs would be set upon the bull one at a time, a successful attack resulting in the dog fastening his teeth strongly in the bull's snout. Attempts to end the entertainment were first made in England by the Puritans, with little effect. But by the late 17th century "the conscience of cultivated people seems to have been touched", but it was not until 1835 that baiting were prohibited by Parliament, a ruling that was soon extended across the Empire. Baiting is banned worldwide but can still be found in parts of the Middle East and Pakistan." Compare Bull-baiting, cock-fighting, dog-fighting "http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-3986.html

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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Fireretard, you'll find on the following links (Center For Disease Control) that the Rottweiler did kill a # of people for 1979 to 1996. I'm not sure where you get your info and what quack you'll be quoting next. These are real FATAL dog attacks listed by breed. Pit bull #1 Healthy adults were killed Rottweiler #2 German Shepherd #3 I know that you know better than these people and the bodies that were examined and the dogs that were caught. You I'm sure will profess that you "investigated several yourself and were right there when it happened". You don't know what the hell your talking about. list your email and i'llmake the arrangements for you to be the next agitator for Pudge. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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Fireretard, you'll find on the following links (Center For Disease Control) that the Rottweiler did kill a # of people for 1979 to 1996. I'm not sure where you get your info and what quack you'll be quoting next. These are real FATAL dog attacks listed by breed. Pitbull #1 Healthy adults were killed Rottweiler #2 German Shepherd #3 I know that you know better than these people and the bodies that were examined and the dogs that were cought. You I'm sure will profess that you "investigated several yourself and were right there when it happened". You don't know what the hell your talking about. list your email and i'll make the arrangements for you to be the next aggitator for Pudge. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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Idiot...the wolves in that area weigh about 40 pounds and these dogs have been used in the US ... the wolves eat them. You can call the wild life department. Listen ... the bottom line is that we were talking about pits anyway and bite force. The wolf is superior, there are NO scientific studies that show otherwise and all support this idea. Wolves vary in weight and strength. I don't know if even these wolves are beaten by that dog. I would doubt it. The bottom line is that wolves must kill every day for food. They fight among themselves as well ... to the death, and I have posted this too and my references. Haha! You just have a very childish way about you dude.

Answer by Steve
Submitted on 5/24/2004
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This site is a joke. Really i mean come on. You have some kids that dont know the whole story and some adults in which should not be talking to others on this site, yes i agree, give your input, and then leave. You shouldnt wait to see who responded to your answer. I live hear...In yellowstone. Tons of wolves rome the area. A fight broke out between a 23 year old mans pitbull and a wolf that was lost from the pack. (or looking for some food.) Anyway, the wolf and the pit fought. The pit was beginning to win for awhile. After the wolf was on the ground, he got back up, grabbed the wolf with his teeth on the dogs rib cage, broke them and then went for the neck, toar skin off of the dog and threw it to the ground. Lets say that the 23 year old man had to go another Vicinity. he was dog searching. i was there. The wolf won easily. So i looked upon the internet to look into it more. Pops up this site and there. i recorded the whole fight as well. Anyone have aim or some sort of talkative device from the internet, put me on your buddy list. my screen name in LostSoulLX, or protoss666 the last one is deadpool448. Ask for Me, Steve and then ask for the video. Do it between tree and seven. i will be gladly show you that the wolf won and the pit died. Though, it doesnt matter on the breed of dog. I mean i am sure that a Doberman Well trained and ready to go would kill a Pitbull, Proposing to the fact on how the dog is. THAT Wolf killed THAT Pitbull, though if another differently environmented Wolf would fight a pibtull. the results may be different. Though my 52 years on this Earth i have seen well 50 because you really cannot remember when you were about 2. I have seen three Dog fights and plenty of Wolf fights. From my OMPINION, in which i have a right to do. The Wolf Breed would kill the Stafforshire Terrier. For the fact that the Pitbull is trained, taimed and relies mainly on people for Food...Shelter...And other things of that sort. i will be back on later to see if anyone will ridicule my answer. Which i am sure from reading this site. I will be ridiculed. It is basic Human nature.

Answer by hmmm
Submitted on 5/24/2004
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STEVE-you missed the whole point of debates.and to GSD#1 i agree german shepards are great dogs but according to temperament testing the pitbull is far safer!!the pitbull is ranked 4th best,the german shepard is way on the bottom(sorry don't have time to look up number right now)also many bites are not recorded from shepards on bite statistics because police and government dogs are protected by law and there handlers can not be held responsible.i love pitbulls but i will never insult someone elses breed, what gives you the right to insult mine and say it is unsafe when the facts prove otherwise. no wonder us pitbull owners have a bad rep, not only do we have irresponsible people owning our breed, we have people who know nothing about them spreading untrue beliefs. it would be nice if you all didn't feel so insecure about a breed thats safer then almost all others.your opinions are welcome,but don't expect to get away with untrue pitbull propaganda on here.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/24/2004
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This is for BIGDOG as well as the others who didnt believe me about that three legged alpha male kill the bull moose by himself. This is by Rick McIntyre from the book i stated before. "The East Fork Alpha Male is the Toughest Animal i've ever known. For at least seven years, his left front paw has been so badly sowllen that he can hardly use it. He lost part of that foot, most likely in a steel trap set just outside the park boundary where it is legal to take wolves(this is in Alaska). I often see him chase caribou. Knowing that he cant catch them if he gives in to his disability, he runs on his maimed foot and soot and somehow sprints at speeds close to that of mucdh younger, surefooted wolves. He endures what must be an extremely painful ordeal and often gets his prey. After a chase, he lies on the tundra and licks his injured, bleeding foot, sometimes for an hour, before he can go on . One summer day, as the limping alpha male is on a SOLO hunt, he finds a young bull moose. The bull outweighs him by four hundred pounds( most likely more since bull moose are much larger than only 550 pounds), but the alpha takes the big animal on by himself, challenging the moose to a fight to the death. Over the next thirty-six hours, he attacks the moose at least fourteen separate times. The moose fights back, stomping and kicking his attacker. The wolf's bad paw is hit during the counterattack and bleeds profusely. Each attack weakens the moose. Near the end of the drawn out battle, he wades out into a swift river channel. Jumping into the water, the wolf swims to his opponent. As they fight, the moose holds the alpha under water and nearly drowns him. The wolf slips away to rest, then comes back for one last round. By this point, the wounds on the bull have taken their toll. Weak for the loss of blood, the moose cant fight back any longer, and the wolf finishes him off. After the moose dies, other East Fork pack members arrive and feed alongside their leader." That wolf was pretty old, and he did die about a month or two later, and he did suffer some good battle wounds with the bull moose. This proves that a limping male can kill a BULL MOOSE by himself. I have seen and read plenty by myself of single wolves killing elk by themselves, and caribou pretty easily(the caribou that is). Elk are rough prey to fight, but it does happen with single wolves. I was reading an article on a website a few days ago that states why dont wolves hunt by themselves because they actually can, and they said the reason they live in packs because of scavengers, especially the ravens. They say at every wolf kill there are at least 50 ravens, and the wolf can eat his fill at first, but the ravens will finish it off before he came back so he would have to hunt by himself alot more frequently. Hope this is some good info.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/24/2004
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GSD? Maybe you didn't see that the German Shepherd Dog is #2 for UNPROVOKED BITES on humans, and #3 for FATAL UNPROVOKED attacks on humans. I don't know where German Shepherd owners get it. You can't argue with the FACTS from the "CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL". These facts are absolute and are the result of 30 years of investigation and evidence. Here I'll give you the links again, I notice that when anyone goes to these links they tend to shut up! You were right about one thing though, YOUR "GSD" is #2 in something. "UNPROVOKED ATTACKS ON CHILDREN". Go to these links to the CDC and scroll down to see what else your GSD does often and well! http://www.cdc.gov/search.do?action=search&queryText=dog+bite http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/25/2004
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who cares who you talk to are not.a 600lbs. moose is not a bull moose.wolves may hunt alot of stuff to eat and survive.but that bigger animals are not killed by a single wolf,is a fact.they have trouble with smaller deer by theirselfs.and sometimes get their heads kicked in.whatever you are bringing up i already know.it does not prove that a wolf can win agaist a fighting dog.if you want to read the truth about it go to -which is the best fight dog-read what ''big d''says because this guy is a for real been around dog fighter.and you will have to agree that even a pit dog fan says what the pit has trouble winning against in these kind of matches.also as he states the pit dog men tried wolves and crossed wolf years ago. there is lots of money to be made by winning in these pit contests,thats something you have to be aware of.its all been tried before!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/25/2004
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WELL!!!!! I can find a "BOOK" that will say "in fact" that little green aliens walk among us cloaked as humans. That doesn't mean anything, nor is it true. What happened to all the facts people? I didn't think that GSD would answer that! Steve, well I went to AIM and nothing. From what I understand about the "Video" the Pit wasn't a game Pit and was actually a cross-breed of pit and retriever and a pet. Nor was the dog of any size or ferocity. As you can see in all of my earlier answers, I do my homework. I don,t think that any 'ol pit can take a wolf. I have a 130# protection trained "American Bull" that I have seen fight a 65# "game pit" He almost killed the pit, easy. In the end the pit was put down. But, he did get into it with another pit that was about 100#. They probably would have killed each other. I also think that anyone who says "American Pit bull'sare Small dog" are idiots and haven't any true knowledge about the breed! 90, 100, and 120lbs pits are not unusual in the breed. See Mike Harlows book "K9 Bodyguards" you'll see several pits over 100# ++. It will also give specific lines, breeders and kennels producing these dogs. Now then back to my point of which I have several. There are any # of American Bulls that are on video taking down 2000# Brahma bulls, wolves might have taken but not on any real record. "A WOLF" will NOT win or take a 2000lbs. bull of any kind. The American bull and boxers have though. Although the dog usually does NOT do this, it has been witnessed and videoed. I don't think that in most cases any of us know what would happen in a fight between any WOLF and PIT BULL, it totally depend on the animals involved. It's obvious that wolf hybrids have been killed time and time again in these fights. Hybrids genetically 98% wolf. BIG CHIEF, ya right. your not fooling anyone. We give you nother name.It be dummy.You not smart for chief red man.you be suckling firedragon and firewater much. you shoot arrow into forehead. you fall from horse. why you so dumb. White man say you full of it.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/25/2004
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WELL!!!!! I can find a "BOOK" that will say "in fact" that little green aliens walk among us cloaked as humans. That doesn't mean anything, nor is it true. What happened to all the facts people? I didn't think that GSD would answer that! Steve, well I went to AIM and nothing. From what I understand about the "Video" the Pit wasn't a game Pit and was actually a cross-breed of pit and retriever and a pet. Nor was the dog of any size or ferocity. As you can see in all of my earlier answers, I do my homework. I don,t think that any 'ol pit can take a wolf. I have a 130# protection trained "American Bull" that I have seen fight a 65# "game pit" He almost killed the pit, easy. In the end the pit was put down. But, he did get into it with another pit that was about 100#. They probably would have killed each other. I also think that anyone who says "American Pit bull'sare Small dog" are idiots and haven't any true knowledge about the breed! 90, 100, and 120lbs pits are not unusual in the breed. See Mike Harlows book "K9 Bodyguards" you'll see several pits over 100# ++. It will also give specific lines, breeders and kennels producing these dogs. Now then back to my point of which I have several. There are any # of American Bulls that are on video taking down 2000# Brahma bulls, wolves might have taken but not on any real record. "A WOLF" will NOT win or take a 2000lbs. bull of any kind. The American bull and boxers have though. Although the dog usually does NOT do this, it has been witnessed and videoed. I don't think that in most cases any of us know what would happen in a fight between any WOLF and PIT BULL, it totally depend on the animals involved. It's obvious that wolf hybrids have been killed time and time again in these fights. Hybrids genetically 98% wolf. BIG CHIEF, ya right. your not fooling anyone. We give you nother name.It be dummy.You not smart for chief red man.you be suckling firedragon and firewater much. you shoot arrow into forehead. you fall from horse. why you so dumb. White man say you full of it.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/26/2004
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some pits are known as ''hardbiters'' because they can kill another pit quickly.but these hardbiters are sometimes beaten by a game dog with abilty.but if you have a game hardbiter with abilty thats a ''pit ace'' the very best.so those dogs are at the very top of the matched pit bulls.they will kill a non pit bull in very short order.if you fought a wolf against one of these dogs the wolf would stand no chance.most other pit bulls do not stand a chance against one.these dogs are like the champions of all the fought pit bulls.just as humans have top champ boxers these dogs are proven number one by doing it.so if you want to talk b.s. when it comes down to whipping the pit bull with a non pit this is what you would face.

Answer by Lawrence
Submitted on 5/26/2004
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I have noticed something about this website. I have also read the entire thing. I waited to get strong input. "What has more psi a wolf or a pitbull?" There is really no way to tell the PSI of either animal. Some of the answers here are about who would win in a fight. The answer is both. Take these two animals as an experiment. A wolf would be able to survive outdoors longer than a Pitbull would. For the fact of wolves have been doing so for so long. Thats the only thing that they know how to do. A pitbull would be able to protect you from a mugger, or a thief entering your home. Because dogs are trainable which Wolves are rarely seen. it depends on the dog to beat a wolf and a wolf to beat a dog. Some wolves can beat dogs, some dogs can beat wolves. it depends within them. You cant always say that a pitbull can beat every Great Dane and every Great Dane can beat a Doberman. It depends within the dog. ill get back to this site. Im sure a lot of people will

Answer by Elder
Submitted on 5/26/2004
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Well, it's really interesting to see how people act when they put too much "passion" in what they do. Still, there are many misconceptions around here. I'll write down a few words, but before that, you should all know that I'm not trying to "set anyone on fire", just to simply express my opinion. First of all, I laughed a lot when I read about the poodle charging a pitbull. But yeah, it happens, even though that means nothing. A few days ago, a guy was walking his pitbull. Of course, it was on a leash. Another one was walking his "gamebred" chinese dog. The second one looked for several times angry at the pitbull and then, suddenly, decided to attack! Of course, the pitbull reacted quickly as if he was preparing to face the little rascal, but I was amazed to see that mean dog quickly realxing and only smelled curiously the mad toy-dog befoe him...as the little one was nervously barking into his face! A few blocks from there, a poodle was trying to kill a boxer...it might not be the toughest breed, the boxer, but still it was funny. Although, I've seen many boxers that were much tougher that it's generally believed to be true about these dogs. After all, they have that old bulldog blodd. And coming to that, you should all know that the original old-time bulldog has been valued for it's extraordinary capabilities in the fighting ring. It was the stubborness and the will to never quit that made him a prized fighting animal against bigger wild animals. However, there's a misconception when it comes about bulldog: if I say "english bulldog", many will think about the modern-time bulldog. Nothing could be farther from truth (this bulldog has been bred with the pug! Making it a companion dog...): if you want to see the correct type of american bulldog (now almost extinct, but in fact being the original bulldog brught to New England by the first collonist), look at a pitbull. That's right, it has the White English Terrier blood infusion, and even some more addd, but the fact is it has 85% original-bulldog blood into it. Now, any breed that is large, muscular, and especially has descended from bulldog ancestry can be a formidable fighter. However, pitbulls have been specially bred and selected through many years for this solely purpose. Only the best dogs were used to perpetuate the blood. Other dogs became showdogs: that is why we have today pitbulls and amstaffs. And another thing: deep chest doesn't tell you much about the physical capabilities of a dog. You'll notice that all show-dogs are bred for form, and not for function. when it comes to function, whatever that dog looks like, if he's succeeding to do his job well done, than it's the choice, even if it doesn't have that impressive broad chest. Period. So, the main advantage the pitbull has over other dogs, it's much in the fact that it's been bred for this dirty job. However, no one should take this only as a guarantee that it will kill any other dog. Dogs diiffer from one individual to another. So don't be surprised if, in a street fight (done by those stupid punks!), you'll see a rottweiler taking over a pitbull successfully. That particular pitbull, although has his ancestry, was not trained for fighting, nor was the rottie. So this leads me to the question: if anyone would breed another type of dog taht has some special abilities, wouldn't be that enough for it to be, even in the ring, a proven opponent againmst the most formidabble pit? A pero de pressa malourquin mioght be just that. And even a Canary dog, although people say it doesn't have the gameness. But that can be fixed through some generations, I think: the presa canario comes from a mix of the same old bulldogs that were breeding free with the native canary islands dogs. And, anyway, like it or not, it will always be also a small probability that a large dog could get a good hold of the most formidable pitbull and simply crush him. Call it luck, but don't forget: it takes time for a pitbull to really show it's gameness: until then, he could be overpowered by the other dog's size, even if its not that athletic. So breed those peros or rottweillers for many generations for the sole purpose of fighting (please, don't try it!) and you'll have maybe a dog at least equal to the brave "little" pitbull (little pack of muscles and teeth, that is). I'm sure the pitbull is a formidable breed, and don't forget that it still had to be easily handled by the "dogmen" during the fights. Not to bite them when they splitted the dogs. I know it's sometimes over-hyped but still: anyone who thinks a puch in the nose could scary a pitbull is a naive person - it could easily kill a full-grown man. Just hit those beasts, cos' they won't let go! Well, most of the time...I think it's a shame that "dogmen" are breeding such a beautifull breed in their backyards (read between my words), without any consideration, turning them into mean killing machines. It's the [people who are not responsable to blame, not the dogs. And please don't put "equal" between dog-agression and man-agression: almost any dog (especially males) will challenge any other dog, no matter what "bid bad" breed it is...sometimes, eve if it was socialised. But that is not the case for humans. A well-socialised dog, let it be the meanest fila, should listen to it's master voice. But it takes a strong hand (don't read "violence") to make a powerfull-willing dog to obey you. He must see you as...the alpha-male. As for the dobbermans, they are excellent man-stoppers, but have never been used for dog-fighting. However, they posess wonderfull capabilities, but don't think it could hold a candle against an enraged bullmastiff or soemthing like that. About hogs and dogs...even the most fierce dogos (best dogs for this job) when they are dealing with such thing, have collars and other protective gear for their chests. It takes a fair pack of them in Argentina to kill that wild boar! And, don't forget, they don't use guns, only kniwes during these "traditional" hunts there. And if many of you know as much as you pretend about wild-life, you should also know that a wild boar will be able to kill sometimes a full-grown bear. I didn't believe that, until I saw it in a hunting magazine. A second look ath those teeth could answer a lot of questins. It happened especially when a hungry bear tried to eat the cubs of a hog. And I mean a HOG!!! BIG!!! Please don't tell me about pictures of bulldogs working a hog. I've seen them, but really, those weren't the giant hogs I've ever seen. About dogs vs. wolfs. You speak about guard-dogs killed by wolfs. Of course, you realize that most of the time they travel in packs, that's no secret. One by one a wolf will still kill many times a dog, but it still depends on the reed. Going back to those athletic bulldogs, they were used especially in the South to guard the farms! Soemone just asked about that. This is the reason why they were brought by the colonists. Sometimes, farmers fought their dogs to see which were the fittest for the job. The weak dogs were usually killed by coytes, or any other predattor that freely roamed in those times in the wilderness. About sheep-dogs: well, they had for centuries to face wolves. I don't know if you've ever seen a Romanian sheep dog (maybe many of you haven't heard about this place...or maybe just bad things. Try "Transylvania"...it's a part of Romania.). They didn't breeg those dogs for eating vampires, you know. But to face the wolves and bears. And about wolves: they are really big. As all other big-game animals: many European record trophys were recorded there. Now back to the dogs: they attacked bears or whatever moved in a threatening manner. A dog of the size of a calf won't back down for anything: it's furr is so dense that from a distance you couldn't say, most of the time (for some varieties) if it's a sheep or a dog. Only by the size. And these dogs killed wolves. Killed bears. How about the Rhodesian Ridgebacks (african hunting dogs?). Well, they weren't killing those lions, but were the quickest and smartest dogs to avoid those claws and teeth. 3 of them would just go and "bounce" around a group of 5(!) lionesses! They are sure something I would call...brave dogs! They could chase a lion for hours, not confronting iot dirrectly, but by biting him while he was facing other two, and then fast retreating! European hunters tried their bulldogs in this type of hunt...yeah, they were brave, but dying after charging the lion! Big surprise... Tosas are great...just imagine, if pits were so toas-butt-kicking, those japanese "dogmen" would just create a new breed by crossing it with the pitbulls...as they did when they created the tosa. Right? Japanese are proud people, but before that, they are smart and practical, so if they mixed so many breeds in shaping the tosa, you think it would be such a big deal to add another ingredient? And about the site that claimed that other breeds had little to no success in fighting: considder that- none of these other dogs have been bred for this job. They were probably bought from the best kennels (I presume...), but still not dogs "schooled" (ever heard about how is a dog trained to be a dog-fighting machine?). I really doubt that they put them into ring with some new-born, withoout any experience tosas or pitbulls to fight. Still, those "hose-pets" (it's a metaphor), some of them had "little success". Meaning that a pressa almost kicked/kicked some trained dog's ass. So they do have some genetics. So they could be bred for fighting (as ome of them used to be sometimes). It's an intereting point of view, I think. But they said: "Well, we have these two breeds alread shaped for this dirty work, so why bother for anything else?". And still, I'm interested how many dogs of each bread did they pit against those fierce fighters? And were they at least working/ show-bred types? Why did they take "this" dog, and not the other? Something to think about... I learned that, for its size, the hyena has the most powerful bite. And, for the pounds, the jaguar has the most penetrating bite. About the jaws: well, I don't know about the PSI's, but the largest jaws known for the "tamed" dog breeds can be found at the dogues of Bordeaux. They haven't been used for fighting for a century, that's true, but they used to be pit against any kind of animal. They come frome the dogs used by the assyrians (which had the greates kennels of ancient times), together with the mastifs, as war-dogs. I read somewhere, just for the record, that one of these dogs was pitted against a siberian bear. Of course it was impossible for him to kill the bear, but still he managed to throw it for three times to the ground. That's impressive, considerring the difference between those two animals. Now I really can't picture a pitbull doing that. It needed far more raw power to do that, and no matter how stubborn that pitbull/bulldog could be, I really doubt it could do something like that. So, if there were, let's say, two other brave dogs like that one, couldn't two of them just go for the throat? And now ask yourself: it was really necesarry to put 10 dogs of this strong molossoid type on one wolf? Yes, they are wild and bad, but even so, I would'n think it could not be that one of these dogs could kill a wolf. Maybe not all the time, though. But let's give them a 50% chace, for a one to one confrontation. In 1901, in Boston I think (you cand serch for it on the net...), there was a historical fight between a dogue champion, Hercules, and a jaguar. The fight lasted for several hours (worthy to mention...speaking about "gameness") and, even though the dog was killedin the end, it's done so much damage to the wild cat and fought so bravely, that even those heartless "dogmen" called it "a draw". And it's always hard to impress them, right? I hope I just gave you folks something to think about. No flame was intended for any of you. Have a nice day, and try to smile again.

Answer by Dogsmakemoney
Submitted on 5/26/2004
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I own an Tosa Inu mixed with an bullmastiff but it looks like 100% Tosa. It was an accidental dog. The mother is full bred bullmastiff and father a full bred Tosa. I was walking her one day and this PBT was literally tearing its gate to peices to get at my Tosa. Needless to say the PBT got loose, I was scared and I new he was coming to attack me; so I did what anyone would do, I dropped the dog leash and jumped up off of pure adrenaline into the closest tree. The pitt ran full speed at my dog and do you know what my dog did??? It sat down!!! I just new my dog was dead. My girl weighs 158 lbs and the pit was about 95 lbs of agilaty. I thought my dog was a goner. That pittbull came fullspeed and jumped to attack my baby. My dog timed it perfect and hit that pitts neck with all the force of a battering ram, jerking it left and right like a piece of cows fanny. For those of us who have seen a fighting dog HIT be4, you know how serious that is. My baby shook that pitts neck like a rag doll till it was DEAD . He had basically pulled out the pitts vocal chord. Ima have to go with the power of a Tosa inu over a pitt anyday, sorry pitt lovers.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/26/2004
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Elder? Where do you get your info as well. The "Bull dogs" that you seem to be referring to in the first half of your STORY seems to be the American Bull Dog. Also known as the Old English Whites and Johnson's Bull. There are 2 main types of American Bull Dog one is the "Johnson" type named after John D. Johnson of Summerville, Georgia USA. The other type escapes my memory. Anyway these dogs are part of the MASTIFF family of dogs and should not be confused with the American Pit Bull "TERRIER" You got it, it is a "TERRIER". You are just another that claims to know everything but have only a brief encounter with true facts. You are just like the rest and should have stayed on the sidelines if all you have is to regurgitate what someone told you once upon a time!! By the way the "Dogue de Bordeaux" aka "French Mastiff" does NOT hold the title for the most powerful or the largest jaws. Try the 225Lbs + class of dogs such as, Bull Mastiff and the St. Bernard. The "French Bull" rarely weighs in more that 130lbs to 145lbs which is about the same size as the American Bull Dog. The DNA of the Amer. Bull clearly shows what it is a MASTIFF not a Terrier. Not sure that you have a clue as to what you are really talking about. Were you speaking about the MASTIFF BREEDS (English, Neapolitan, Bull, French, Standard) or were you speaking about the terrier BREEDS (Jack Russel, Scottish, American Pit Bull, Boston, Yorkshire). What the hell are talking about?????????????????????????????????? Although I agree with a few of your assertions, you don't seem to know what your talking about when it comes to the dogs. Now then, a Jaguar is really a small cat and not even close to the capability's of say a Mt. Lion or Leopards. Jaguars a constantly eaten by other predators, so its really not relevant. Contrary to your statements there are many videos of AMERICAN BULL DOGS taking down 2000lbs Brahma bulls and huge Boar with only a chest protector. They do take the animals down one on one. As for a Coyote taking any dog, right. I grew up on a ranch, there are few things that a Coyote will even consider attacking. Keep in mind that the average coyote is 25 to 30 pounds full grown. I shouldn't have to say anymore about that! Lets see, the Presa Canario. Once again wrong the history of this breed is clear, research it before you speak. The Doberman is a fine animal but as usual the AKC has destroyed this breed as well. Very hard to find one in the US that is suitable for the origin of this breed. Mr. Doberman (Tax Collector) intended that they be used for protection. Breed from the Rottweiler and Weimaraner mainly. The AKC awards champions the title because of looks and looks alone not ability, unlike Shutzhund, Pro sport, CKC and the like that award based on the ability of the K9. The Tosa lots of evidence on these dogs vs. other dogs. Not that great or smart. None of these dogs hold sch II or III. The Ridge-back, get real this dog has been torn apart in most confrontations. I used to hunt Coyotes with one when I was a kid. We had 2 Grey Hounds and the ridge-back as chase dogs and ONE (1). American Bull for a kill dog. The Coyote lost every time to the ABD the ridge-back would not kill the Coyote nor fight for long. Now Akita's and Huskies are used to chase or keep away Polar bears and Kodiak Bears. This is not to say that the dogs could kill or even injure the bears. They (Bears)have associated the dogs with humans and man, thats why they run. This is the same thing that unusually happens with the Sheepdogs and other herding and herd protecting breeds, predators associate the "dog" with Man. Although the English Sheepdog as well as the Komador are both very capable breeds. Anyway if you DO NOT HAVE A CLUE what the hell your talking about when you talk about ONE (1) of the 20 incredibly different dogs with the "BULLDOG" name. They range from a 10 to 15 pound harmless, bed wetting coward, to a 150lbs. monster. By the way once again....It is not unusual for the American Pit bull to be 100lbs +. Hardly a "little" dog. I'm sure there are several people out there that would love to show you the capability of the "little" pit bull. Now I just have a 130lbs. Amer. Bull. I have had many protection trained K9's and have trained them for 14 yrs now. One would be hard pressed to find a better dog the American or Pit bull. IN THE END IT DEPENDS LARGELY ON THE ANIMALS INVOLVED!

Answer by Lawrence
Submitted on 5/27/2004
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Well im back and i have read the input up to date. Everyones views here are excellent. Actually big dog never did say that a dog could beat the bear. No dog could. Just like a wolf would never be able to beat a lion. Though sometimes things surprise you in the oddest of ways. I am not sure wo has a stonrger psi a wolf or a pitbull. no one can really tell, though, it would seem logical for a wolf to have the stronger. It lives in the wild, it kills animals much larger than him, It relies on no one but itself and its pack. A dog now. Stays in the house, needs human to take it for a walk. I mean, it is just a psi. i read earlir that someone said that German Shepherds cant fight. Every dog can fight. My mother, now is dead. She had a German Shephere professionally trained in California. The greatest dog that i have ever seen in my life. It took every dog down in the neighborhood. i mean this is the god honest truth. Every Dog knew him, His name was Wiser. they would really run away when he was coming up the street. He was in a fight with a pitbull and killed it, the only reason that he killed it was because my mother was walking Wiser and a tall man came up to her. he had the pitbull. since Wiser was professionally trained, he wouldnt go after the Pit, when the man WHO WAS DRUNK raised his hand at my mother, his pit got away and went after my mother. well, Wiser grabbed him somehow and shook him until his neck broke. Wiser was 6 and the pit was 4. The pit died instantly and my mom had to have Wiser put down. Wiser ran away and never returned. Though the fact remains on the stronger psi thing. i know that a pit could beat a German Shepherd and a German Shepherd can beat a pit, it doesnt matter at all on the type of dog. I will check back in later, cant wait to hear from you guys.

Answer by Rottweilerette
Submitted on 5/27/2004
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Wolves are not comparatively strong animals compared to the majority of molosser breeds. just because a wolf is a wild animal does not mean it is stronger. Human intervention has long since improved upon the wolf, and for everything a wolf does, there is a breed of dog that does it fa better. Think about it, the American Pit Bull Terrier IS a wolf on the genetic level, but it has been bred for stronger jaws. This is what intelligent people call specialization.... Saying a wolf has stronger jaws is like saying a general human could out punch a specially trained boxer like Mike Tyson. Because the inborn evolution equates relatively to training, but on a DNA level.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/27/2004
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Oh ya right, Something smells about "Wiser". True that once in a while another GSD MIGHT be able to beat a pet pit. However that is much more the exception and not at all the rule. GSD'shave been destroyed in the ring with pits and are often used as "bait" dogs. I train and own Protection and Detection trained dogs of all different breeds. Also known as the dual purpose K9. As I've stated before, the GSD is a good dog if you happen to get one that has the right temperment for the job. However one typically has to go to Germany or Europe for a "QUALITY" GSD as well as both the Doberman and Rottweiler. Thanks AKC (american kennel club). Have a look at my earlier facts for more on the GSD on this page. The GSD does NOT have anywhere close to the same Jaw pressure that the Mastiff breeds or the pit bull terrior possesses. Any experienced protection trainer or aggitator will absolutely agree with this fact. Why? Because we have all had them on the sleeve, then the men seperate from the boy's and the truth comes out. This is also clear when you have a look at the skull and muscle structure of the GSD. The GSD is made for tracking as well. i.e. the long nose. The best tracking and/or detection dogs such as the Labrador retriever, of which I own a Black one, have a long nose. I also own an American Bull that is proforming at schutzhund II level. The Lab clearly tracks easier and faster. This is not to say that the ABD cannot track, as I said before he is a schutzhund II dog. By the way, why would anyone let a "Proffesionally Trained" GSD doing roaming the hood? See right there, I and any other person who either trained or owned these types of dogs KNOW that if the dog was trained correctly he/she should not at anytime attack another dog unless they are posing a clear threat to the owner/handler. Nor should anyone who has one let the dog roam freely thru the "hood". You see the case law on something like that is "YOU LOSE" because of your negligence. Why didn't the dog protect your mother from the man who was attempting to harm her. That would be the first priority of the "Trained" K9. SURE YOU DID

Answer by Elder
Submitted on 5/27/2004
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Dear mromero, Let me congratulate you first for some of your words that proved, in some way, that you are not too "shabby" or something like that...but I have to disagree at some point with you. You are talking about the John D. J. and the Scott variants of american bulldog. I can understand that, if you take a look at today's bulldog, you'll think you are right when you say what the "correct" buklldog type should be. But take your time please and read again my post: "That's right, it has the White English Terrier blood infusion, and even some more addd, but the fact is it has 85% original-bulldog blood into it." So I never claimed that the bulldog and the pitbull are the same. I mentioned "terrier", as yo can clearly see. Further, I was speaking about the original bulldog. The English Bulldog. It came to America and if you'll look for some early paintings/pictures you'll find out that the original American bulldog was exactly the good'ol English bulldog. Please check for some of these pictures. You'll find a less "bullier" bulldog than today's J.D.J., Scott, Aplha Blue's or whatever. And yes, they are molossers 100%. One thing to keep in mind: at some point there were rumours that because these breeders wanted to avoid any genetical problems because of the lack of many original bulldogs, they bred them with some modern-day's English bulldog. Could this explain the more "bully" appearence of these american bulldogs? Maybe. But again I'm not sure that southern ameriican farmers used to write down and do math regarding their dog's "breeding". While the English did that in the old days, when they were using bulldogs for fighting. Got the point? And furthermore, it's not really underrated to assume that some modern-day English bulldog in the equation could change the appearance of these dogs somehow...for example, the bull-terrier didn't look like that (I mean the strange head!) until the breeders found a male that had this strange figure. And used it in theirs breding programs. And voila, today you can find only "strange" looking bull-terriers. Sometimes the genes can be more domminant than we usually imagine. And about the dogue...maybe I wasn't too clear. My mistake. Sorry. For its size, you won't find a breed in the same class that will have stronger jaws...that is because for it's body proportion, it has the biggest skull. That's all. About the "gear" used by the bulldogs while taking down hogs, I said "have collars and other protective gear for their chests." You said "with only a chest protector". "protective gear"="chest protector". Ok? But without the "chest protector" (I quote!) the dog could be several more times dead...right? And about dogs taking down bulls...you surely know that rottweilers were used for the same job. Especially smaller dogs are more athletic and can outpower the bull because of their sheer determination and speed, call it stubborness if you want. About the presas's history, some argue that the "real" pressas were those before English bulldog was added to their blood...So the discussion is really open. Many breeders from the Canary have different stories about how they should look like, behave, about their history...the fact is that we today know Pressa's as the dog that Semencic "advertised". Poor Doberman! It's all the rage today even between "showy" breeders when it comes wether should they "rearrange" the ears and the tail or leave it alone...I personally think a dobbie should be as I know it from my childhood...I mean it looks really strange without those alawys aler ears...and the tail...It seams that there were some strains that were born withot the tail, but they are lost nowadays. And about the Ridgeback...no offence, but I can hardly believe that yours was trained and bred like its ancestors from Africa...now really. As I said before, I wasn't looking for "flames", nor for a more delightful way to spend my time...sorry for any inconvenience. And yes, I do believe in decent people (Although "Very hard to find one"..., just to quote somebody...). And no, I'm not speaking about you, dear Mromero, just again about everything happening around here. ____________________________________________ Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam - I have a catapult. Give me all your money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/27/2004
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ELDER.........................well I'll be, I think I like you. Finally some inteligent and knowlegable conversation in this chat "hole". someone who accually know or is willing look for the right way to travel. Thank you for your invite to "fling". You are right about your earlier conversation about the 'ol english. However I did not totally miss that I just "Clicked" send to fast. It pleases me to know that there is inteligent life out there. Poor Dobe is right, Love the breed. Have had 2, a red and black. kkBrilliant dogs until the AKC "made them" in the 70's. I'm sure that God intended that we Crop the ears and bob the tail 1st thing. As with all man made things---well you know. True the "Bucky" the Ridge-back wasn't one of the best dogs I've ever owned. Maybe at that time I was less involved in training that dog for a catch dog. Mainly because he kept those skinny little Hounds on the hunt. He may have been a little intimidated by the ABD. I have seen the Ridge work a hole for a wolvereen, actually there were four or five of them. The famous wolverine made a break for it out of a den and BAM, all done. The single most vicious thing I think I've ever saw at that speed. Maybe I was a little hard on the Beave, at first, my appologies. This site is full of opinions that are half opinion and the other half is a lie. Just thought everyone should know that I HATE dog fighters, I would love to set any one of you up with my dog in a ring, Just you and he. Also the APBT is one of the most intelligent dogs. Regaurdless what all say. Few Dogs are smart enough to attain and earn a Schutzhund III title. MANY MANY MANY APBT and Bulldogs of all kinds hold these titles all over the world. Likewise with Prosport and livingston. Ah yes the Scott right on the tip of my tongue. Love to discuss more with you, not many others on this site will even answer me for the obious reasons. They're all comparing what they know fur sure, I....Think . A buddy of mine tol me. seen it with my own two eyes. You get the picture. Also I've got the german connection for Dobie's from $750 to $75,000 US. Go figure in telligent life out there. Good Day sir, assuming you are an "elder"

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/28/2004
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Some of the posts under my name was not written by me, especially the ones saying I am lonely! haha! loser. I also am confused about the talk of "dog lovers" or "wolf lovers." I am neither. Dogs are just a tool, nothing more. A wolf is a wild animal that causes trouble sometimes. This months National Geographic has an article about wolves fighting bears and so on...pit bulls NEVER killed bulls. They just held their nose so the butcher could kill the bull. It's very naive to believe a pit bull that can't even kill a healthy adult ... can kill a bull. Come on!!! There are much tougher dogs than pits that could kill a man ... and they were used during war. This is documented. However, pits are not among these dogs. I have nothing against pits. It's just a matter of fact. You will find NO credible source that says a pit bull has stronger jaws than a wolf. What you don't understand about dog fighting is that it's done for money. They also fight cocks. The money is in the betting. The dog doesn't have to be able to whip a lion, just fight another animal that is his weight. They don't fight pits and wild animals, although in LA they are fighting domestic pigs and pit bulls. There is a movement to make this illegal, but they probably won't. So, there have been articles about "bear baiting." Only the fool believes the dog actually killed the bear or that the dog killed the bull; however, wolves kill bulls all the time. I have seen pit bull bites. They are shallow and not so bad, compared to a wild animal. I have seen a steer killed by wolves. The backbone and skull are often crushed. I saw pictures of an eighty something year old woman attacked by seven pits. She had small wounds over much of her body ... but none were serious in themselves. They don't have the teeth or the strength. We have also read sites about medical treatment. Wolf bites generally involve serious injury and broken bones. Dog bites are rarely fatal. Pit bulls are not that intelligent either, just as their owners tend to be stupid and losers. Girls that have them are often prostitutes. The pit has something wrong with him ... he'll do the same thing over and over. I have seen a few dog fights in my life. None were fatal or even resulted in serious injury. I have seen people at the fights more seriously injured. There's a lot of excitement over money and this often results in violence. Take a look at this month's National Geographic. The wolf is a real animal.

Answer by eriksen
Submitted on 5/28/2004
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For those of you that seem to dislike wolves, please show a little respect. If not for the wolf there would be no dogs,from the great dane to the pomeranian and every breed in between including your beloved pit bulls. All dogs owe their genetic make up to the wolf ,not to man . We may alter breeds to suit our needs, in reality we have enslaved the dog and created an animal that goes against its natural instincts.The wolf has remained unchanged for more than a hundred thousand years it has survived ice ages out lasted other much larger predators,the sabertooth cat, gigantic bears twice the size of grizzlies, and the dire wolf a canid that could exceed 300lbs.Nature has created a perfect predator in the wolf. To think that we could create an animal superior to the wolf in any way is insane. If man ceased to exisit the dog would soon follow.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/28/2004
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Firedragon........ Might I interest you in the earlier evidence that I provided you and others. The CDC has recorded, investigated, and been involved in the prosecution of Pits that killed ADULT Humans. Go to the CDC link that I provided earlier. You probably did and just ignored the evidence because that would silence your activism. I still know several ranchers in the North West and Canada where I grew up on a Mt. Ranch. I haven't nor has anyone I KNOW EVER heard of or seen a Bull that was killed by a pack of wolves, much less A single WOLF. You probably have never even been around any of these animals and are ignorant to there abilities and common behaviors. I might add "steer" is very different than a full grown bull, you may not know this given your earlier comments. Even Bears will not attack this animal (Angus, Brahma or Limo) Bull. I have been on Elk hunting trips where I Know that Bears were in the same area as the bull and other cattle NO WORRY. In FACT the US dept of agriculture keeps meticulous records on livestock that have been killed by "WOLVES" (PLURAL). A single wolf usually will not attack anything accept for rodents and small mammals. i.e. the reason that when "banished" from the pack life they are unlikely to survive alone. Back to the facts as they are. The United States Department of Agriculture has in depth studies of the "Grey Wolf" and its pack labors and lives. Why? I'm sure firedragon will argue with this info as well. Well in the early 1900's the Wolf was hunted almost to extinction, as you should know. It was hunted for 2 reasons primarily. One was the fur also known as the pelt. Second the wolf had a "bounty" placed on it because it was said to be eating all of the unprotected livestock primarily sheep this was later debunked by the study. Clearly the folks in the wolfs territory were victims of the constant spreading of untrue stories about the Wolf and it pack. Much like the drumming of fearful stories that firedragons and others are spreading on this site. No real truth or evidence behind what they say just fear and non knowledge. This claim of the wolf eating SHEEP is true, although they (wolves) rarely if ever take grown cattle. Maybe a calf or an old heffer in labor, almost never a full grown healthy adult. Those stats only increase when you are talking about a 2000lbs + bull. Back to my point, the Agg. dept. studied this in depth because of the re-introduction of the wolf into ranching area's. "What if any impact will the placement have on surrounding cattle populations"? A 10 year study has concluded that only 4 heffers and 20-30 calves were taken by the PACK of wolves. "" AGG dept. "When confronted by the full grown Black Angus Bulls, the pack (wolf) moved on". All of this had to be settled before the wolf was reintegrated into these sites including the great Yellow Stone National Park. The study was done simultaneously with the Moose reintroduction in the Colorado mountains, where I live now. The US Agg. Dept had to consider subsidizing the rancher if there was any impact on the herds. After all the fear and crying the result was minimal on cattle populations. Now sheep were a totally different story. Even the Coyote will take sheep. Often times it is not known if the animal was taken by the Bear, wolf, Mt. Lion, Wolverine, Coyote or any other predators. It is hard to tell without track or sign. As for the bear, it is also Dependant on the type of bear, Black or Brown. Oh I suppose I'll have to tell you this as well. A brown bear is also known as "Grizzly or its Bigger Brother the Kodiak basically the same genetically. Both of which will kill and eat the Black bear. I'm sure you seen that on TV didn't you furdraggin. Just another passing point Mt. Lion and Bear (Black and Brown) have attacked humans and do so regularly not one of these attacks has resulted in death. I don't think that there is a single bear attack that resulted in death recorded in the US over the last 100 years. There is not a single wolf attack on record, PERIOD. Contrary to the fears and stories of humans. Now than you keep referring to the pit as a "small stupid dog". There are numerous APBT that have earned a the coveted SchHIII title. Special for you I will explain. Schutzhund sport, it is a type of training and ability that some breeds of dog compete in. It's origins come straight from Germany. Developed for a purpose, German dog handlers and owners believed that the then German Shepherd dog (still a primary competitor), Doberman and Rottweiler, all German in origin, should be breed according to ability. Unlike the way that the popular AKC (American Kennell Club) does business. Judging anything based on the appearance is ignorant. Anyway, everyone this is not an easy title to aquire and hundreds of Pit Bull Terriers hold the SchHII and SchHIII title as well as ringsport titles and other like competitions which makes it in itself a smart competitor. Smarter than most breeds I'm afraid. There are only limited # of dogs that can earn these titles. the American Bull, Mastiff, and the American Pit Bull have done it and continue to achieve these titles. Go back to your TV and watch closely this time. Remember that when a movie says "Based on a true story" doesn't mean that even 10% of it is true. Just that the basis is from a true story. I wouldn't think that any intelligent person would base his/her opinion on a TV show. Remember that the TV used to say that segregation was O.K. Come to think about it. The TV was used to promote the very same fears that you are Firedragging. There is even a childhood story that promotes that kind of nonsense. Lets see, "Little Red Ridding hood" Whos afraid of the big bad wolf?....... Just go away

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/29/2004
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says, "BLOWHARD FIREIDIOT-A PIT IS A ONE OF THE STRONGEST DOGS.THE BITE IS CRUSHING.THE TEETH ARE VERY DEVELOPED.ANYONE KNOWS THAT.YOU JUST SEEM EVEN MORE STUPID WITH EACH POST!THEY HAVE BEEN USED AS MURDER WEAPONS,ON ADULTS.SO KEEP ON BLOW HARD, YOU JUST ARE NUMBER ONE STUPID LOSER OF THIS SITE." No, the pit bull is a sissy dog. I have posted the cite that says NO PIT BULL HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO KILL A HEALTHY ADULT !!! Haha! Mromero says, "Might I interest you in the earlier evidence that I provided you and others. The CDC has recorded, investigated, and been involved in the prosecution of Pits that killed ADULT Humans. Go to the CDC link that I provided earlier. You probably did and just ignored the evidence because that would silence your activism." Idiot. The CDC has not been involved in prosecutions of pits that killed HEALTHY adults ... not old or infirm. I have posted articles were seven pits could barely best an 80 plus old woman that weighed 98 pounds. You are a loser, and if you don't shut up about this, I will post the entire article and this will really make you into a FOOL!! From the CDC article: "Results Fatalities during 1997 and 1998�XDuring 1997 and 1998, at least 27 people died as the result of dog bite attacks (18 people in 1997 and 9 in 1998). Of 27 human DBRF, 19 (70%) were children (1 was �R��n30 days old, 3 were between 7 and 11 months old, 9 were between 1 and 4 years old, and 6 were between 5 and 11 years old), and 8 were adults (ages 17, 44, 64, 70, 73, 75, 75, and 87). Approximately half (n = 15 [56%]) of the human DBRF were male." http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf As you can read, almost all the deaths were children. I don't think someone that is 64 is generally healthy...they are kind of old and weak generally. Notice the others were over 70 or even 80 years old!!!! The invalid that was 17 was killed by a rot and not a pit. Also, I have cited the court case that said ... out of 300 deaths that have occurred in the USA from dog bites, NONE were healthy adults. It's as simple as that! I cited the case where they planned to use dogs as killers ... they were not pits, they were Presa Canario!!!! Haha! In the case below, a seven year old child survived two pit bulls. In the other case, a man's arm was grabbed by a pit bull that would not let go. The wolf can bite the leg off a moose in seconds. These dogs couldn't bite the arm off the old man, and they could even bite the arm off the little boy. They would starve if they were on their own. BOY SAVAGED BY PIT BULLS Aug 21 2003 Frankie, 7, is 'nearly killed' By Nic North A BOY of seven narrowly escaped death after being mauled by two American pit bull terriers. Frankie Knowlden had climbed into a neighbour's garden to retrieve a football. Dad Matthew managed to prise him from the dogs' jaws. He said: "If he had been there another 30 seconds he would have been killed - they would have torn him apart." Matthew, 33, of Minster, Kent, heard the dogs "screaming like a pack of wolves" on Tuesday. He said: "They had pinned Frankie to the fence. One had its jaw on his arm and the other had his head and was shaking him like a rag doll. MAULED: Frankie in hospital yesterday after hours of surgery "He was covered in blood and was being ripped apart. He had a 10in gash to his face and puncture marks all over his body." Frankie is "stable" in hospital in Chelmsford, Essex, after three hours of plastic surgery to his face. It is believed the dogs had escaped from their steel enclosures in the garden. Police said they had no powers to remove them because the owner had taken "reasonable" steps in the way they were kept. But Matthew plans to sue and is angry that they were not destroyed. VICIOUS: A pit bull terrier In a separate incident, John Smyth, 47, had plastic surgery yesterday after being attacked by two bull mastiffs in Dunkeld, Perthshire. Mr Smyth, of Farnborough, Hants, said: "I saw the owners coming towards me. They must have known their dogs were dangerous. "The big one was pulling on its owner and as soon as it saw me it just went berserk. It came straight at me. It just wouldn't let go of my arm. Then it went for my back." The second dog joined in but was dragged off by its female owner. The male owner finally managed to release the other dog's grip and it ran off. Mr Smyth, who had deep cuts in his arm and back, is in hospital in Dundee. Police were last night hunting the dogs' owners. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13316331_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-BOY-SAVAGED-BY-PIT-BULLS-name_page.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/29/2004
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Another fallacy is that the "pit bull" won't let go. The pit is a stupid animal and has some genetic flaw. "Game" just means that it does the same thing over and over. It will play with a ball for hours. It will bite and hang on, but it is easily taken loose. Handlers break dogs several times during a fight at least! Sometimes 20 or more times. Pit bulls often lack strength in their legs. This is due to the excessive emphasis on breeding "stupid" game traits and aggression. That's why "pit bull" pulls are generally only among other pit bulls with weak legs! J Evol Biol. 2003 Mar;16(2):324-32. Erratum in: J Evol Biol. 2003 May;16(3):541. Functional trade-offs in the limb muscles of dogs selected for running vs. fighting.by Pasi BM, Carrier DR. Department of Biology, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84112, USA. The article that idiot keeps citing but has never read was published in the American Journal of Vet Med. Here's the citation (by the way, it doesn't say what he claims it says) J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2000 Sep 15;217(6):836-40. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. US Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA 30341, USA. Pit bulls are certainly not the most intelligent of dogs and dogs are certainly not the most intelligent of animals. They can be identified by various methods. They "gameness" simply means that they are compulsive. Pigs and wolves are about twice as smart as a dog. Stockman MJ. Identification of pit bull terriers. Vet Rec. 1992 Dec 5;131(23):542 Pit bulls typically are not strong enough to do other than soft tissue damage, even when they attack children. This is how many pit bulls can attack an elderly woman and the woman survives. The person will only die if the soft tissue wounds are numerous enough, and this means the bites must often cover close to 90percent of the body! A wolf bites through the spine of a bull and brings it down, eats it .. and so on. Many articles have been written in Journal of Trauma about animal wounding ..a tiger can bite an arm off an adult with one snap! A wolf can take the leg off a moose ... pit bulls mostly do soft tissue damage! J Trauma. 1989 Apr;29(4):517-20. Mauling by pit bull terriers: case report. Baack BR, Kucan JO, Demarest G, Smoot EC. Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, Springfield 62794-9230. Tex Med. 1988 Nov;84(11):40-4. Pit bull attack: case report and literature review. Viegas SF, Calhoun JH, Mader J. There is NO comparison to the wounds inflicted by wilf wolves and those of dogs!! Int J Legal Med. 2002 Oct;116(5):295-300. Epub 2002 Sep 03. Forensic approach of fatal dog attacks: a case report and literature review. De Munnynck K, Van de Voorde W. Most children that are injured or killed are injured or killed in their own homes because their parents are stupid... "RESULTS: Children younger than 6 years constituted 52.8% (n = 204) of the sample. As compared with older children, a higher proportion of younger children were bitten by their family dog (chi2 = 27.64, P = 0.001) whose rabies shots were up to date (chi2 = 12.08, P = 0.034). A higher proportion of younger children were bitten on the face (chi2 = 49.54, P = 0.000) and were bitten in their own homes (chi2 = 16.075, P = 0.013). IMPLICATIONS FOR NURSING PRACTICE: Young children frequently sustain dog bites from their family dog in their own homes. Injuries typically involve severe lacerations to the face. Prevention strategies for young children include close supervision of child-dog interactions." Pediatr Emerg Care. 2002 Jun;18(3):247-9. A comparison of dog bite injuries in younger and older children treated in a pediatric emergency department.Bernardo LM, Gardner MJ, Rosenfield RL, Cohen B, Pitetti R. University of Pittsburgh School of Nursing, Pennsylvania 15261, USA. lbe100@pitt.edu Also, the people that supported the "pit bull" were not really scientists but "animal behavioralists." For the animal behaviourist it is not justifiable to condemn only the dog and blame it solely for damage inflicted; this is idiotic. If pits were responsible for 67% of the deaths in 1987 and 88, it stands to reason that this is a large number. There is also a difference in a "fatal dog attack" and a "fatal wolf attack." SIGNIFICANT differences in tissue damage and so on .... J Forensic Odontostomatol. 1999 Jun;17(1):10-5. A comparison of bitemark injuries between fatal wolf and domestic dog attacks. Wong JK, Blenkinsop B, Sweet J, Wood RE. Office of the Chief Coroner, Province of Ontario, Toronto, Canada.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/29/2004
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wilhe he make it,a little 34 pound american pit bullterrier owned by anita persinger from noble illinois,pulled 2,030 lbs. on may 6 1995 in st. louis,missouri on carpet.that's 59.7 times his own body weight.few breeds have the sheer guts,brawn and wiillpower showcased by the bully breeds,such as the american pit bull terrier,during weight pull events. sweet,devoted,highly intelligent and enthusiastic,APBTs have a high pain tolerance and can have a high energy level.with sheer muscle,big heart and unwavering drive,bully breeds excel at weight pull.[quoted from bully breeds popular dog series] the breeds tenacity and accompanying strength are UNPARALLELED IN THE CANINE WORLD.QUOTE FROM MINI ATLAS-OF DOG BREEDS,OF COURSE ALL OF THIS WAS QUOTED WAY BACK BUT AS WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE EXPERTS SAY MEANS NOTHING TO FIREFAG.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/29/2004
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firedragon What exactly are you trying to say now? Pits do kill Adult humans. Wolves do not. There is no evidence of a human being taken by a Wolf. Also during the years of 1987-88 there were I believe 47 total fatal dog attacks as fallows: Pit Bull 12 Rottweiler 3 German Shepherd 1 Husky 0 Alaskan malamute 0 Doberman 2 Chow Chow 0 Crossbreeds Wolf Hybrid 1 German Shepherd 2 Pit Bull 2 Husky 1 Rottweiler 1 Breed Unknown 22 suspected to be GSD cross-breeds\anyway do the math not 67% pit bull. Well thats probably all I need to say about your sources. There have been 0 for a total of Wolf attacks. Once again Not sure where you get you info. I did read some of the info you provide. Not sure that they say what is true or even what you are attempting to say they say. According to the Devision of Wildlife "wolves won't attack a person, although they have been known to start eating the body of someone that has died for other reasons". So I wouldn't be sure where your source gets the comparison info. according to the CDC there has not been a wolf attack on a person over the last 100 years. Much less a fatal attack

Answer by Elder
Submitted on 5/29/2004
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The question is not wether wolves or pitbulls have killed more people throughout history, you know... A wolf can kill a healthy human. A pit can do the same. And it's nothing more than a joke to say they won't bite hard... Just a few months ago somewhere around here a small pitbull (I mean something maybe about 36lbs) attacked his masters. They were in the house and that "little" dog made 3 grown-ups to run "for cover" on the balcony...especially one was badly injured. But you know this time it really was a pitbull...and not as ususally: if it's a large dog, anything else than a GSD, let's write it was a pitbull (the ->P<-ress)! If it's a rottweller, it's a pretty good chance there to hear again about a vicious pitbull, that killer, you know... However, there should be no mercy for stupid hadlers that make their dogs dangerous for society. Idiots. Plain. Simple. And this time a neighbour said that the dog used to be abused over and over by its handlers. Greetings to mromero, are we cool? Had a nice surprise in your last post. An yeah, where are the days when they bred everything (well, almost) for function, not form (good'ol days)? We humans are strange sometimes. Wonder if we could ever understand ourselves. Wonder how those dogs are looking at us...I somehoe think they have a sense of humour...well, something like that...deep inside. Maybe they just laugh from time to time at us...

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/30/2004
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In the Seattle Times, January 08, 1997 A Place for Wild Wolves and a Reason to Kill Them by John A. Baden, Ph.D. The timber wolf is an icon of the changing West. It also offers a litmus test of the ability to think clearly. Emotional baggage is chained to the species like a # 4 Victor, the trapper's tool of choice. Ranchers I've known for 30 years have come untrained, loudly sputtering at me for defending the wolf's place in the West. And I've brought environmentalists to tears when explaining that problem wolves should be, and will be, killed. Here is the key to understanding. The wolf is programmed to kill large mammals but we want them to be selective. By all means spare cows, horses, and sheep. There's a place for the wolf. In Yellowstone Park elk and bison numbers are exploding. With numbers far exceeding carrying capacity, the ecology of Yellowstone is being dramatically simplified and degraded. The wolf can help restore nature's dynamic balance where politics precludes responsible management by federal agencies. The wolf has been successfully reintroduced but its return must be actively managed--and not from afar. Here's why. The wolf is, at base, a cautious, indeed cowardly killing machine. That is precisely why they are valuable additions to ecosystems like Yellowstone that are threatened by over browsing. But a wolf in the wild has a hard life. Most die before reaching five years of age. How does the above square with the claims by wolf advocates that there's no record wolves killing humans in the United States? Quite well indeed. The historical record indicates that wolf attacks on humans go down as weapons improve. Barry Lopez's respected book, Of Wolves and Men includes a conversation with an old Eskimo. The wolf used to sometimes kill Eskimo. "Now Nunamiut (an Eskimo) can reach out and kill Amaguk (the wolf) from a distance with a rifle. Now Amaguk leaves Nunamiut alone." In 1972 Erwin A. Bauer, a defender of wolves, observed; "Wolves once had an unnerving habit of closing in around a man, under the right circumstances, often getting within a few yards or even a few feet. And if these animals have killed few or no humans on this continent (since 1920), they have scared many half to death". So what happens when we "save the wolf"? Montana ranchers are finding out. They need a confirmed livestock kill before they can act. In the Big Hole country, rancher Wayne Turner used a radio monitor to track two transplanted wolves, B7 and B11. In one week he trailed them and found two carcasses of moose calves, a cow moose, a cow elk and a yearling heifer, the last a confirmed wolf kill by wildlife officials. The wolves were darted with tranquilizers and relocated to an enclosure in Yellowstone Park. Last week in the nearby Deer Lodge Valley, four wolves killed or maimed seven Angus cows. The wolves were shot by federal agents. Icons have different meanings to different people. Newcomers to the West and urbanites insulated from rural Western traditions see the wolves as displaced natives who must be returned to the ecosystem. Conversely, many native Westerners view wolf reintroduction as the imposition of an alien culture. To them, the wolf causes a whimsical waste of resources that threatens ranching and the traditional culture. Wolves have evolved as careful killers. That's why we want them returned to wild ecosystems. However, we want them to be discriminating in their preadation. This requires that we permit stockmen to shoot wolves that kill livestock. As wolf numbers increase, so will this problem. It is irresponsible to pretend otherwise. John A. Baden, Ph.D., is Chairman of FREE and Gallatin Writers.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/30/2004
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bigDOG says, "if you type in ''wolf attacks on humans''google -it comes up there have been attacks and deaths in north america." Haha! Hey, get over it. You must have some knowledge of the subject to get information that is core about a subject. It's like all that talk about paintball last year and how girls were being "tortured" in Nevada by men blasting away with paintballs. I heard people on the radio say that someone had lost an arm from a paintball and so on .. so much hype and lies. I use paintballs...they don't even hurt and their velocity is slow enough at 20 meters, you can jump out of their way!!!! When surfing the net, you have to have basic knowledge in the beginning. Otherwise, you fall short. Look at the people citing the CDC study. It doesn't say what they think it says ..... it was "animal behavioralists" that wrote the article and they were .... as strange as psychiatrists in ways. They had good stats, but their first assumption is that you can't explain behavior by breed, you must look at the environment (i.e. the owner). They are assuming that pit bull owners are normal. yuk. I was getting petroleum the other day and there was a trashy looking punk in the adjacent pumping station. He was talking stupid to the dog. He was in a truck, but didn't look like he used one, he wore a cowboy hat, but you can tell it was for looks. He was a moron. The dog got out and ran around. It was just a little dog. I have cited my sources and they are reliable. I know I have heard that wolves haven't attacked too, but it's because wolves were so despised that they were practically killed off. I have spoken to eskimos that disagree and say that wolves are worse than bears. Wolves are a killing machines, designed to bring down large prey. There's an article in this month's National Geographic. I suggest you read it. You are beginning to sound psychotic....your reality doesn't fit into real reality. I have read this about wolves too ... except you need to read the entire article. Usually, there is a conditional qualifier...it will say "healthy wolf" Wolves that have had rabies have attacked like crazy. Also, wolves were killed so often in Europe ... has anyone seen, "Brotherhood of the Wolf?" The movie was based on a true incident that is famous in France. In actuality, they finally killed the two animals that were responsible for the attacks ... attacks that killed as many as 5 or six people a week. The "werewolf" legends and other legends were based on a fear of wolves. Most animals develop a fear of man. Today, the "cautious" wolf is the predator that survives. It's as simple as that. The wolves kill large game ... cattle, any type of sheep, goats, deer, even moose. Smart animals will kill sick prey, but often there aren't too many of them. So, they kill what they find. Among cattle, there aren't any old or sick because the farmer won't let the cattle get old and if they are sick he kills them or puts them where they can recover. Green people are common and they don't want hostility toward wolves. They are the ones that introduced wolves into the population in areas where they had been killed off.

Answer by mroemero
Submitted on 5/30/2004
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Well seems that you support all of my claims firedragged. Any 1920 claim has reason to be suspect, just because of the day and time it was. Very little evidence comes with any of those "claims" if any at all. Nor does anyone know if that individual was dead and the wolf was merely feeding on it corpse. The cause of death is yet "unknown". It is not likely that the wolf actually killed that person. March of 1903 is the actual time. Like I said No Bull on record has been killed because they (wolves) cannot bring one down, much less a wolf. Like I said, MAYBE an old heffer or a calf. These wolves (plural) seemed to take several desperate days to harm some old cows (female) and a calf. I stand on my earlier claims and postings. Your problem firedragged is that I STAND ON YOUR CLAIMS AS WELL>>>... Good day to Elder, thank for the info.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/30/2004
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Firedragging, You fail to understand that I am not speaking to opinions and article as you do. I only quote and speak about raw data. To whoever stated that News Papers and the "Press" focus on "Pit Bulls" how true. I have seen a number of writers turn the attacking Akita or what ever into a pit bull. In fact my wife is an LPC "Licensed Professional Counselor" and 2 years ago she seen a 8 year old boy that was attacked by the neighbors Akita. Not really attacked but 2 bites to the face does a considerable amount of damage. The press played it out all the way that the dog was a Pit Bull. Now we all seen and knew the dog AKC papered, AKITA through and through. Not sure why the press did it but they did. Surely ratings and someone in control that resembled the attitude and mentality of someone like firedragging.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/31/2004
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mromero, you don't make a lot of sense. You are trying to say that they are confusing the dogs, but then...that's not true. When someone is killed, many states have laws against pits...in order to prosecute, they must prove the breed of the dog. I don't think you understand the meaning of raw data ... I certainly have given the data in a concise and rigorous method....the fact is that you cannot show ANY credible source that claims a pit has more power to it's bite than a wolf...as I have already shown, the wolf has many times the bite capability of the pit. mromero you really don't make sense. I have cited articles from top journals, including JAMA and others. I don't know if you are troubled mentally or what, but I didn't say anything about 1920...the article said there had been few attacks since then. Science was pretty strong then and medicine was good. They could tell how someone died. The article from the medical journal was a recent killing by a wolf of a human...at any rate, it's much harder to kill a moose than a human and yet a pit can't even kill most children it seems1! No, bigdog, the wolves were NOT part dog. As I have said, wolves and dogs don't breed in nature, they need human intervention. The species is a taxonomic group that can interbreed; however, there are many other requirements. It's just like you probably know that mammels are warm blooded...but they have many other traits..specialized teeth (look at the shark teeth or the crocodile teeth..all the same); fur or hair; give birth to live young; produce milk and so on. Members within a species can interbreed, BUT in Canis all members of this genus can breed. A fox is not a dog or a wolf. A coyotte is not a fox. Yet, they can all interbreed... Strange, huh? During the early days of Europe, most wolves were pretty much wolves and nothing more. Even today, wolves and dogs don't interbreed naturally.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/31/2004
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the taxonomy [or classification of wolvles is an involved subject,but has to be touched upon because of the confusion caused by the popular names for these animals.Wolves are actually the true dogs,and the only true wild dogs.They belong in the genus Canis,in which we also place all domestic dogs,as Canis Familiaris.There is no truly wild representative of the domestic dog,unless the dingo of Australia be such,and there are no other members of the genus Canis but wolves.[the dingo is a special case that does not concern us here]Their nearest relatives are the jackals[genus Thos],and the next of kin,though more widely separted,are the foxes[vulpes].The classification of the wolves themselves is also subject to the usual confusion and conflict,there being ''splitters''and the ''lumpers'' among canine specialists.Confusion regns supreme when you try to break the species down into types,varieties,subspecies,such as timber wolf red wolf,and so on;but a surprising simplicity marks the actual number of forms.There are but three full species-the indian wolf[canis pallipes]the coyote[c.latrans],and the rest [c.lupus],all called by all manner of names,or simply the wolf.-quoted from -Dangerous to man.by Roger A. Caras.it seems that it is not clear at all if wolve[s] have ever killed anyone in North America.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/31/2004
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since many people who own pit bulls today have never seen a professional contest,it should be stated for their benefit what was perfectly obvious to one who had watched hundreds of money fights;dogs don't all bite the same.even as the dogs were not equally game,equally quick,or equally strong,they also did not bite equally hard.some pitbulls could fight for two hours and never break the skin,although most dogs that made it to the pit for money could do a fair amount of damage.however some dogs stood so far above the others in this category,that all dog men who had seen them friend and foe,alike agreed they were ''hard biters''.nothing moved an oldtimer to eloquence as the memory of a''hard biter''.while the deep game dog has been universally sought,the gamblers little darling was the ruthless executionerwho could disable his opponent with the first hold he took.dogs by the name of ''black jack'',''benny bob'',''spike'',''jimmy boots'',''mandigo'',and''white rock''have become legends in their part of the country.those dogs,because of their natural ability to bite,were as close to a ''sure thing''as a gambler will get.every dog fighter that ever stepped into a ring dreamed of having one of those crippling,shocking'ironjawed alligators in his hands.against a worthy opponent,a hard biting dog could take a shoulder hold and immediately penetrate the hide,sink his fangs through inch and a half of muscle clamp it like a vice.muscle was bruised and torn,nerves were cut,the whole area filled with blood and became inoperative in a few minutes.your average good fighting dog took the same hold,broke the skin,pinched the muscle and bruised it,while the light biter,[who in his his own way may have been a fine fighting dog]did'ntbreak the skin,but bruised the muscle.the effect of one was immediate,while the last was hardly noticeable.these efferts were only valid when tested against a comparable athlete.from there we go to the second promlem of breeding hard biting dogs.what about the physiology and conformation?look at pictures of those legendary hard biters.their heads were all shapes.it didn't seem to matter if the dog had a long muzzle or short;whether he was undershot or had an even bite;whether the head was big or small.teeth not only frequently did not meet evenly,but were not necessarily long and sharp.whatever common denominator of bone and muscle relationship that existed in these hard biting dogs is not readily apparent.quoted-the book of the american pit bull terrier.by richard f. stratton

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/31/2004
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People keep talking about the "Hard biters". I've said previously that it would be hard to judge the bite PSI of any animal because you can't "tell the dog, wolf or whatever" to bite as hard as you can or else. Kind of like a horse race how do you get a horse to run to win not just to keep up. If you could articulate the winning concept to an animal psychologically then you would have an unstoppable animal. You can fill in the blank as to what kind of animal or sport.... Maybe this is where hard biters and long runners and heavy hitters come from. That particular animal understood the competition and showed it by winning. Just my theory. If you could convey the theory of winning to animals and then get them to do it when you said nothing could stop them. Think about it, any time a competitor gets in the ring, on the field, track or whatever the main obstacle to overcome is your own mind.. If any of you are or were competitors you know what I'm speaking about. Most recently I participated in bodybuilding and power-lifting, the main competition is your own mind. Overcome that and you've got it made. Anyway like I've said before you will never get an accurate reading. But like I said, only a theory.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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Answer by Hound .. yea, yea, yea. Show me the proof. You talk, talk and talk...cite your source or go home dog! Answer by bigDOG Yea, yea, yea. The WOLF is by LAW not a DOG (hey grow up dude). The wolf is protected by law. There's good articles from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Here's one!!! Get A Dog: Wolves Are Not Good Pets position of the National Wildlife Federation The idea of owning a wolf or a wolf-dog cross is appealing to some people who profess a great love and respect for wolves. They want to share their lives and homes with a wild spirit. Perhaps they even believe that by perpetuating the genes of wild wolves, they are doing the species a favor. The reality of owning one of these animals is often very different. While wolf puppies might be every bit as cute as dog puppies, they will grow up to be wolves, not dogs, no matter how much they are treated like dogs. With wolf-dog crosses, or hybrids, the higher the percentage of wolf genes, the more wolf-like behavior the hybrid will exhibit. Dogs vs. Wolves And Hybrids: It took many thousands of years for humans to selectively breed canines for the traits that make modern-day dogs such delightful companions: congeniality, flexibility, and eagerness to please. It is simply impossible to instill these traits in a wild animal overnight. Many an unsuspecting wolf lover has purchased a wolf pup, only to find that it is largely untrainable (since it does not care much about pleasing its owner), and that as it grows into adulthood it becomes unpredictable, if not downright dangerous, especially around children and small animals. Many such animals end up living miserable lives on the end of a chain after a frustrated owner gives up on trying to care properly for the animal. For more in-depth information on this subject, please see Wild Sentry's publication, "Can You Turn a Wolf Into a Dog? - - Commonly Asked Questions About Having Wolves and Hybrids as Pets", which can be found on the web at: www.wildsentry.org/book_hybrid.html . ""I've heard that dogs and wolves are the same species, and it sure seems like there are more differences between a Chihuahua and a St. Bernard than between a wolf and German shepherd. Is there really a difference between wolves and dogs?" The wolf is the ancestor of all dog breeds that exist today. Wolves and dogs are very similar genetically, but the seemingly insignificant differences in their genetic structure create hormonal changes that result in vastly different behaviors." "So, while many taxonomists recognize the dog as a subspecies of the wolf and the genetics of the two are quite similar, it is a misconception that these facts prove the wolf and the dog are the same animal. When hybrid breeders and enthusiasts argue that wolves and dogs are essentially the same because they share so much common genetic material, stop to consider this: ninety-eight and four-tenths percent (98.4%) of the genetic material in humans and chimpanzees is identical, yet our behaviors are radically different. Certainly no one would promote crossbreeding humans and chimpanzees as a way to create an animal that is "the best of both worlds." ONLY SOME TAXONOMISTS RECOGNIZE DOGS AS BEING A "SUBSPECIES" OF WOLVES...MOST DON'T. The species of wolf is Canis lupis, the dog is Canis fam. There is a big difference...the "wolf" is NOT a "dog" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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You will find errors regularly in taxonomy because people don't understand what they have read. The above is a lesson plan for first year biology students. It attempts to explain differences. You can also see how MONEY effects some "scholarly writing." Drug companies wanted the FDA to allow all medicines tested on dogs to be used on wolves too and so the "drug scientists" published works relating to the dog and wolf being close enough to be subspecies; however, if you read the percentage of difference between a chimp and a human and a wolf and a dog, you will see that they are obviously very different even though their differences is less than 1 %. For example, the government mentions the "Canidae" family and uses one of the broad categories (jackel, wolf, dog, fox) that is within this Genus. It doesn't mean they are the same, it's like saying a cow is in the mammalia family, even though we know a cow is not a porpoise. For example, from the US Fish and Wildlife:: Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf Recovery Plan NORTHERN ROCKY MOUNTAIN WOLF RECOVERY PLAN NORTHERN ROCKY MOUNTAIN WOLF RECOVERY PLAN Prepared by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in cooperation with the Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf Recovery Team Approved Date: U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: "The wolf is the largest wild member of the dog family Canidae. Adult males average 90-100 lbs. (range 43-175 lbs.) whereas adult females average 75-85 lbs. (range 39-125 lbs.). males are usually" http://midwest.fws.gov/wolf/west/nr-recplan.pdf The wolf is a protected species and this article further goes on to differentiate the species: "Characteristics to indicate Wolf rather than Dog or Coyote: _________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________" http://midwest.fws.gov/wolf/west/nr-recplan.pdf I hope some of you are understanding the difference between a dog and a wolf. You will have to know this if you take highschool biology at a decent highschool or freshman biology in college.

Answer by Lawrence
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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I have just read more of the inputs from the people here and let me thank you all for taking your time and giving your opinion. Something bothers me though. People who give their opinion is entitled to that opinion. Why is it that other people must taunt and ridicule other peoples remarks. That bothers me. I mean it is just a site to ask who has a stronger psi a wolf or a pitbull. Especially this FireDragons guy here. he has some strong input. So does bigDog and Neal. Everyone here some great inputs. After that was all cleared up, i read a story on a man that lives in Nany Glow mountains. The man has a large area that he owns. He called the state about a wolf problem. A small amount of packs have been forming on his property. Well, two months ago the man was heading into town for something and he heard screaming yelps in his backyard. Well a wolf was caught in a bear trap that the mans friend had left there. The wolf's leg was trapped and broken. The man rushed over to the wolf and he freed the wolf. Oddly the wolf got up and limped off. A few days later the man was going to work and on his porch the wolf was laying there. The man went back into his house and called the state. When the state got there the wolf was gone. Later that night, the wolf returned to the guys house and the man stopped again. Knowing that a wolf alone will not attack a person he went to the wolf and the wolf took to him. The wolf became taimed to the man and he now lives with the man. It is funny how some people on this site say that a wolf would not be able to be taimed. That is wrong. It depends on the wolf. Like i said before about my mothers German Shepherd. He was well trained. It is a shame how professionally trained people can do that to a dog. How vulnerable the dog becomes. He is a sitting duck waiting for a command. The wolf on the other hand is not that way for the fact that wolves have been roaming free for thousands of years. See. A wolf would naturally beat a dog in a fight it doesnt matter what breed the dog is. Dogs are classified by a word. Great Danes and Irish Wolfhounds are the biggest dogs. They are also the most lovable. A doberman would be an alternative. Rodegian Ridgebacks are smart. Akitas are aggressive. Pit Bulls are mainly an alternative dog. They sometimes become anything. There are so many stories of Dobermans killing Pibulls and pitbulls killing Dobermans. Akitas killing Great Danes and Great Danes Killing pitbulls. If i had to say to the fullest extent. A wolf, keen, swift. Relies on himself and the pack...versus...A trained, relies on a human being for food and shelter... i say that a wolf would win. The wolf would soon feel threatened and kill on instinct. If a Wolf is able to take down an elk and tear the leg right off, and a pitbull gnaws on bones for fun or pleasure, the wolf would win. A wolf is stronger, Smarter, Faster, has more stamina and definately has more skill. 4 out of five times a wolf would beat a pitbull. And that still leaves a Chance for the pitbull to win.

Answer by Mr. Smith
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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Hmm, i just read most of the answers here on this site. Some of them are...good and some of them makes the people sound like they really are ignorant of a lot of things. In the past few weeks there has been a fight, battle or dispute going on here. Going on between FireDragons and BigDog, MrRomero has been in the spotlight as well. I think that its funny that BigDog is the one that says something and makes FireDragons respond to the remark told by Big Dog. There is no real way to tell a psi of an animal and if an animal has a stronger psi than another animal. I mean if a rat has a psi of 3000, educated guess, that doesnt mean that it can tear a leg off of an animal. Or if a wolf has a psi of 1500 anothr educated guess, doesnt mean that it can tear the head off of a pitbull. Lawrence hasnt been making any comments towards anyone. He is stating the problems. He also said something else that caught my eye. It really depends on the dog. What the dog is made of and how the dog is. Some dogs care to fight as others just hey. Oh well, im gonna sit here and sleep. Some Dogs are lazy whereas some dogs arent. There are no realy stories that i have read (and believe me that i have searched for quite some time) heard of a pitbull killing a Healthy Adult. Anyone has a story of it, show me and i will apologize for my ignoance. I would love to see them if anyone has them. Talk Later.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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OK. Let's get the dog and wolf thing out of the way and CLEARLY explain it!!!! The dog is Canis fam. The wolf is Canis lupus. There are various species of wolf as well, such as (Canis lupus irremotus) or Often, people with no scientific knowledge will read something they don't understand. For example, an article that clearly states the wolf species is not the dog species (for example (Canis lupus irremotus)) will say something about the wolf being in the family of "dog family Canidae...." The family of Canidae consists of dogs; wolves; jackals; and foxes and so on. When you describe the Genus, you mention a large group WITHIN the genus. It is not saying that a fox is a DOG. You must have gotten a poor grade in biology, huh? So, people read a little, misinterpret what is said, and write about what they have learned. Here is a lesson plan for first year biology that tries to explain why a wolf is NOT a dog. Notice the information about cross breeding and so ON. READ THIS carefully those of you that never read! Studying Living Organisms Studying Species by Examining the Evolution of the Canidae Family Karen Wickersham National Health Museum Class time required: One hour in class and as homework. Materials and equipment: Student copies of handouts for each student. Pencil and paper. Summary of activity: This activity is a reading that compares the domesticated dog and the gray wolf. It is designed to enhance students' knowledge of the definition of species. Students are also asked to complete a phylogenetic tree of the Canidae family. After reading the activity, the students are asked to write an essay justifying why or why not wolves and dogs should be classified as different species. This assignment will help them express their understanding of the concept of species. Prior knowledge, concepts or vocabulary necessary to complete activity: Students should have a basic understanding of the concept and definition of species and of evolution. This might also be used to introduce a chapter on evolution. Students should also be familiar with binomial nomenclature and taxonomic classification Teacher Instructions If necessary, explain to students how a phylogenetic tree is constructed and read. Then, assign the reading and question sheet. Have students prepare the essay to turn in for a graded writing assignment. After students have written and submitted an essay, you may use this essay as a way to prompt a class discussion and debate on taxonomic classifications. Student Reading Studying Species by Examining the Canidae Family and the Evolution of the Domesticated Dog Part A. Introduction: Reproductive Isolation and Speciation If dogs and wolves can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, why are they considered different species? Remember, many books give the definition of species as an organism that is morphologically different from other organisms like it. Some other definitions say that species need to be reproductively isolated from each other. Reproductive isolation means that because of physical, geographical, or behavioral differences, two similar organisms do not reproduce fertile offspring. The problem with deciding whether something is a separate species can be confusing because there is no single accepted definition of the term (Wayne and Gittleman 37). The biological species concept by Ernst Mayr takes into account different isolating mechanisms besides the ability to produce fertile offspring. First of all, members of a species might not naturally mate and meet in nature. Their habitats are different, so that even if they are physically capable of reproducing in nature, they do not because they usually do not come in contact with each other. This could be called seasonal or habitat isolation. Two species could also be behaviorally isolated. For example, two similar species of birds might use different mating calls. Therefore, the two species might not mate because they do not recognize each other's mating signals. A final type of reproductive isolation, mechanical isolation, is when two species cannot interbreed because their sexual organs are not compatible. (Strickberger 486). Morphologically, two species would be considered different if there are measurable differences between many of their traits such as the size of the skull or width of the teeth. If the distribution of measurements do not overlap those of another group, the two might be considered different species. This is commonly called the typological species concept (Mayr 187). "Another widely discussed idea designates a species based on a unique characteristic not found in other closely related organisms - for example, the upright posture of humans" ( Wayne and Gittleman 37). An example of an animal that does not fit in easily in any of these definition is the red wolf. The red wolf was first described about two hundred years ago and can breed extensively with the coyote and the gray wolf. It is also very similar physically to the coyote and the gray wolf. Many modern researchers believe that the red wolf is actually a species produced by the mating of a coyote and the gray wolf. A species produced by the mating of two other species is called a hybrid and is referred to as a product of hybridization. Part B. Constructing a phylogenetic tree of the Canidae family. In this section you will be given clues. Read the clues and look at the blanks on the phylogenetic tree of the Canidae family. Try to fill in blanks with the common names of each animal. There are 10 total questions. Numbers 1-9 have a blank to fill in, but for No. 10 you will need to draw in lines to show its relationship to others in the tree. The phylogenetic tree is drawn according to time, so the earliest divergences are on the left while later divergences are found farther on the right. Adapted from Morey, D.F. (1994)The Early Evolution of the Domestic Dog. American Scientist. 82:336-347. Note: Some clues will only fit into one place, others could fit into more than one. You will need to go back and change your answers as you get more information on the tree. Clues... A. The crab-eating fox is most closely related to the hoary fox. B. The gray fox seems to have diverged very early from other species and has no common ancestors on the chart other than the black bear. C. The Cape fox diverged from the same common ancestor as the red fox. D. The common ancestor of all the animals on the chart is the black bear. E. The domesticated dog diverged most recently from the gray wolf. F.The coyote also diverged from the gray wolf, but at an earlier time than the dog. G. The maned wolf is actually evolutionarily closer to two foxes than to other wolves. H. The blue backed jackal is more closely related to wolves and to dogs than to foxes. I. The Arctic fox is related to the Cape fox, but has an even closer relationship to another species of fox. J. For # 10, go back to page one of the handout and read about the red wolf. Draw lines into the phylogenetic tree and label where the red wolf belongs. Part C: The Evolution of the Domestic Dog. About 10,000 to 14,000 years ago the domesticated dog began to live with humans. This was during the Pleistocene era, during the Ice Age. The earliest fossils of what is believed to be one of the first domesticated dogs was found along with human remains in a cave in Iraq. During the Ice Age, humans and dogs were competing for the same food, so it would not be too difficult to imagine an alliance formed between them (Clutton-Brock 34). "Wolves and late Pleistocene hunters and gatherers undoubtedly came into contact regularly, since both were social species who hunted many of the same prey items" (Morey 339). Domesticated dogs are very similar to gray wolves. The gray wolf and the dog both have 78 chromosomes. Gray wolves and dogs have only a 0.2 % difference in their DNA and RNA sequences. In addition, a study comparing thirteen different breeds of dogs and 26 different gray wolves found either identical mitochondrial DNA sequences or the sequences are only different by the gain or loss of one site (Wayne 220). The next most closely related animal to the gray wolf is the coyote. The coyote and wolf differ in 4% of their mitochondrial DNA sequences. In fact, the dog and the wolf are so similar genetically that most dogs can reproduce viable offspring with wolves. Domesticated dogs also differ from their most common ancestor, the gray wolf. One difference is their rate of maturation and another is the breeding season. Gray wolves only have one breeding period per year, while dogs can go into heat two or three times in a year. In addition, dogs attain sexual maturation in six to twelve months while it takes wolves and coyotes two years to attain sexual maturation. Finally, male dogs can produce sperm and are potent all the time while male wolves will produce little or no sperm outside the breeding season. (Fox 37) There are other differences between dogs and gray wolves. The dog is smaller overall (with the exception of a few breeds) and the length of the snout is shorter than in a wolf. The dog has a steeper forehead and a wider cranial skull. These characteristics of dogs are juvenile characteristics present in wolves when they are puppies. This phenomenon is called paedomorphosis by scientists (Morey 341). Paedomorphosis is where juvenile characteristics are maintained in the adult animal. In addition to its puppy-like looks, the dog has a more slender coronoid process of the lower jaw that has a noticeable overhang not present in the wolf. (Hemmer 40). Wolves and dogs are also different in the area of behavior. Wolves can be tamed, but they still have a wild temperament. Wolves tend to react in an aggressive, defensive way to the unfamiliar while most domesticated dogs do not. Dogs also vocalize more than wolves. "Wolves and coyotes will bark occasionally in the wild and other members of the Canidae family will learn to vocalize in captivity but the deep bark of the large breeds of dogs, the baying of the Bloodhound and the yapping of toy dogs are products of domestication" (Clutton-Brock 37). In addition, domesticated dogs have learned to be subordinate to dominant humans. (Morey 339). Finally, adult dogs display behavior that is considered juvenile behavior in wolves. Therefore, dog behavior and attention seeking action can be considered similar to the behavior of immature wolves. In conclusion, dogs and gray wolves are very similar genetically. They can mate and produce viable, fertile offspring. The domesticated dog has also undergone evolutionary change for the past ten thousand years. These changes have made the dog morphologically different from the gray wolf and have produced an animal that occupies a different habitat and employs different behavior than its predecessor. Part 1: Terminology -- Many words that might not be in your vocabulary are defined contextually in the reading. Go back to the reading and find the contextual clues to arrive at a definition for each term provided.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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there was a cop type show on,a few years ago were a man in texas used his pit to kill his girl friend.the dog was not even people aggressive.they thought the dog was trained to attack by command.i think the man and girl were just fighting and he chose to allow the dog to kill her.pit bulls will do that.if their master is fighting with someone they will help them.i know i had to pull one of my dogs back when my ex-wife and i would argue.most humans that are killed by any breed of dog,are not adults.if you look at dog attacks it does not say whether or not victims were adults.a child is just more unwitting.adults mostly do not do things to large dangerous dogs to provoke them.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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dang it, I leave for one day of work and this place goes to the dogs, or wolves. Mr. Smith, with all do respect. If you want to find an adult that was killed by a pit than you should do a search on any search engine or search any News paper like the Colorado Springs Gazette in late 03 or early 04. There was a woman, 32 I believe killed in the City of Elizabeth Co. Either late last year or early this year. Shortly there after I believe a teenage boy killed by two American Bulls. So don't get them confused. I believe the woman was going to saddle her horse and I think the horse was also attacked but don't "" me on that. Terry Firedragons PLAGIARISM IS A CRIME IN THIS COUNTRY. If you notice firedragging never address my statements with anything but spinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!! Good Day. Read my earlier post, before firedragging on and on decided to plagiarize his encyclopedia.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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ONE OF THE HARDEST ATTRIBUTES FOR MANY UNINFORMED PERSONS TO ACCEPT IS THE GOOD NATURE AND STABLE TEMPERAMENT OF THE BREED.HOWEVER,IT IS EASY TO SEE HOW SUCH A TRAIT HAS EVOLVED BY THE SIMPLE ELIMINATION OF THE DOGS THAT DIDN'T HAVE IT.TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION,FOR EXAMPLE THE FACT THAT IN THE PIT THE DOGS HAVE TO BE HANDLED AND MINISTERED TO MANY TIMES IN THE COURSE OF A TYPICAL MATCH.HOW MUCH MORE DIFFICULT THINGS WOULD BE IF THE DOGS WERE INCLINED TO BITE THEIR HANDLERS.[OUT OF PAIN,FEAR,SAVAGERY]FOR THAT MATTER,A DOG THAT SCRATCHED TO THE REFEREE INSTEAD OF THE OTHER DOG WOULD BE A DEFINITE LIABILITY!DOGS THAT DID NOT STAY COOL UNDER PRESSURE AND MAKE A DEFINITE DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN HUMAN AND ANIMALS WERE,THEREFORE SYSTEMATICALLY WEEDED OUT.OF COURSE AN OCCASIONAL ''MAN FIGHTER''WILL TURN UP,BUT IT IS ONLY THE NOVICES THAT WILL TOLERATE THEM.AT A MEETING THAT INCLUDED SOME OF THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE PIT DOG MEN IN THE COUNTRY,THERE WAS A GENERAL CONSENSUS FORMED THAT THE PIT BULL[IF SO INCLINED]WAS PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF KILLING A GROWN MAN.WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE PIT BULL AS A DANGER TO HUMANS I USUALLY SAY THAT THE PIT BULL IS A THOUSAND TIMES LESS LIKELY TO THAN ANY OTHER DOG.[ATTACK]BUT IF HE DOES ATTACK,HE IS MUCH MORE DANGEROUS.JUST PICTURE A BULLDOG[PIT]ATTACKING A FULL GROWN MAN WITH THE SAME INTENSITY AS HE DOES ANOTHER DOG.HE WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT OFF BAREHANDED AND HE WOULD LIKELY BORE IN,GRASP THE MAN BY THE CHEST AREA AND SHAKE.EVEN IF THE ATTACK WAS TERMINATED THERE[BY OUTSIDE INTERVENTION]A MAN COULD EASILY GO INTO SHOCK AND DIE FROM JUST THAT!FOR THAT REASON MOST PIT BULLS SIGNED THEIR DEATH WARRANT IF THEY SHOW ANY SIGNS OF AGGRESSION TOWARDS HUMANS.-QUOTED THE BOOK OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER.RICHARD F. STRATTON.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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ALL predators try to attack the sick or old; however, there are no "sick or old" livestock from the ranches. These are healthy animals in their prime, yet the wolves will bring down steers and other livestock. WOLVES COMMONLY KILL HUNTING DOGS EASILY !!! EVERY HUNTER KNOWS THIS. THE "IDIOTS" THAT TALK ABOUT LION HUNTERS THINK THE DOGS KILL THE LIONS ... THEY DON'T AND IF THEY RUN INTO WOLVES, THE WOLVES KILL THEM!!! U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Mountain-Prairie Region GRAY WOLF RECOVERY STATUS REPORTS See the 2000 annual report http://mountain-prairie.fws.gov/wolf/annualrpt00/ for a map of pack locations and home ranges. The interagency 2001 annual report is being prepared and should be available by February 2002. Because email is down this site is not active at the current time. Please report wolf sightings!! If hunters or outdoors enthusiasts report evidence of wolves to you please pass that information along to the Service. Control Apparently the Gates Park pack moved down the Sun River and is in the vicinity of Gibson Reservoir. Around the 1st FWP observed 5 wolves feeding on a whitetail deer they had killed out on the ice. On the 2 a local houndsman turned his 2 hounds loose on a fresh set of lion tracks. He was trailing his dogs when they went silent. He was unable to locate the dogs but returned the next day with his receiver and found both dogs dead. They had apparently ran into the pack and were killed and one was partially consumed. http://mountain-prairie.fws.gov/wolf/wk01042002.htm

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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As for the "wolf" story, it's interesting, but you might learn a little more about genetics. Coy Horn said the same thing about his tiger...he was lying. Wild animals are wild. The tigers Horn used had been raised from birth by Horn and Z. They considered Horn to be an "alpha" male ... but, during the last show, something went wrong. Horn appeared weak. When the tiger tested him by swiping at him, horn could only give him a punch on the nose. Horn hit him as hard as he could, but it didn't work. Then, Horn fell, imitating a sick or injured or old animal. The tiger bit him around his neck. The teeth went completely through the neck and severed his vertebra artery. He would have lost consciousness immediately. Ziegfried lied about what Horn said...Horn was not even conscious at the time. The story about meeting a wolf and taming it as an adult is almost certainly untrue. Sometimes, wolves can be taken as young and ... appear tame, but they are always unstable. Read the posts about this. They can become violent with confusion...umbrellas have set them off. The nature of the beast is savage and they remain this way. Professionals that work with wolves often say that the wolf that works with humans is more dangerous than the wild one because it loses some of its fear of man! Being afraid is good. My advanced terminal degree is in science..not science pertaining to this subject, but I did take zoology, biology, and some other bio sciences. I also took genetics and wolves are interesting studies, simply because BEHAVIOR was modified in animals genetically. 100,000 years or so ago, there was a genetic aberration in some wolves. They were less aggressive toward man. These animals most likely were not very intelligent � dogs today have about 30-40% less brain for their size than a wolf. For whatever reason, the population of wolves became more adapted to man and the captive environment. Mutations occur and in nature, the most savage survives. The most savage wolf that paired with man did not survive, however�the friendlier wolf was selected and thus, over time, the domesticated dog EVOLVED. It�s kind of like the giraffe � mutations occurred and animals were born with longer necks. They tended to survive, natural selection and their gene became dominant. The most docile wolves were selected for and so these are the ones that survived. Our behavior is about 50% genetic. Wolves are wild and unpredictable. Domestic animals are generally predictable�there are exceptions. The pit bull has been known for its tendencies to be violent and harm humans. It�s as simple as that. It is not strong enough for a healthy adult to fear, but it can kill children and the aged. That�s the problem.

Answer by SunRiver
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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The dog is as a � developmentally arrested wolf. Wolves, when they are young, display behavior patterns similar to dogs. They are less aggressive and more playful. They have floppy ears and sometimes curled tails. Their skulls are much smaller and the jaw development much less. As the wolf matures, certain hormones that make him stronger and more aggressive surge. Their skulls become larger, much larger in proportion to size (notice how human babies have such big head compared to their bodies�.pups are the opposite). As the wolf grows, there is more regional pigmentation, the floppy ears disappear, and rolled tails are also gone. So is their playful nature. In recent studies done over a 50 year period with Canidae, it has been found that the less aggressive trait is tied with immature hormones and smaller heads .. often less intelligent. Foxes, for example, when chosen because of their friendliness toward man will often been as juvenile foxes�they are less aggressive, less strong, and don�t have the bite power of the wild foxes�this occurs after about 36 generations. So, the dog has much weaker jaws. He is smaller for the most part. He is not as aggressive and does not have the hormones that make him strong. That�s why when a dog encounters a wolf, the wolf eats the dog alive.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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Wolves DO kill dogs one on one. In fact, most of the time, it's the lone wolves that kill dogs, not the pack. I have posted this from the US Fish and Wildlife studies. The wolf sees the dog as a competitor. There are many lone wolves out there that have been culled from the pack or have chosen to be alone. No, pit bull attacks don't involve "breaking bones" and biting adult arms off. The wolf can bite the leg off a steer or even a moose. The pit bull has NEVER bitten an arm off an adult human and ... to my knowledge, not even a child. Their jaws just don't have the strength. If you find that pit's can, post the site so that was can all see it. I have posted many sites that say wolves can bite through skulls and thigh bones of the largest animals. The aspects of a dog, as has been stated...that allowed it to be domesticated was undevelopment. It was like a child, exccept it had a smaller head. Over tens of thousands of years, did humans select the traits they wanted ... it was not natural selection, where in the wild only the strongest survive. In most pit rings, the owner or handler stops the fight before death results and so the dog fights another day. That isn't natural selection. As it has been stated on this forum, most wolves die fighting each other and there is no owner to stop the fight. Why is the dog so much weaker than the wolf? Even in the beginning, the weaker wolf that could not compete for food started out as scavengers around human camp sites. They became accustomed to man ... remember, at this time, the dire wolf still existed and it weighed 300 pounds or more!! Probably, very small wolves that were not developed sexually or physically had arrested behavior. Humans have secondary sexual characteristics. For example, as children, our pubic hair is often straight ... as we mature, the hair kinks. Boys begin to grow beards and the voice depends. Girls are about as strong as boys but then the hormones take over and the young men become MUCH stronger, to a point that women cannot compete in just about any event. Boys certainly change...their strength, aggression, and so on. Wolves are that way, but dogs are like arrested wolves, forever in their childhood. Weak, less agressive, and playful. They teeth are not as long, their jaws are only a fraction of the bite force. How many pits are over 100 pounds? None of them. Pits are commonly up to 50 pounds, most are around 40. A mastiff might go for the throat...the wolf will .... because its size, although most dogs don't go for the kill. Wolves must always go for the kill...that's what they do. They kill. Most confrontations are life and death. It's as simple as that.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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Hey, great post Dionyseus. You cited sources and were straight with the answers. Schutzhund III? There are several tests in the Schutzhund, none of which is intelligence. It mostly tests domestication abilities. The first, involves tracking and finding dropped items. If you are running after someone, they might drop items so they won�t be captured with them. The second phase is obedience. Haha! Pits aren�t exactly obedient. The final test is protection. They are certainly not good �guard dog� and I would challenge anyone to find a guard dog service that uses pit bulls!! Haha. There are many issues that the pit cannot address. Pits are obsessive. A Schutzhund must stop biting on command. The pit bull is too stupid to stop doing anything � playing with a ball, biting on something. They just do their thing. The only Schutzhund contest a pit wins is against other pits and sponsored by pit clubs. There is no central authority here, the pit is just declared to have scored enough points among others that are there.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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many pits are 0ver 60lbs. some are over 100lbs. all you have to do is look on pit bull breeder websites. you have no proof one wolf kills any dogs.all i find is wolves killed one dog.a large proven pit that is a hard biter will make short work of a wolf.i know this for fact and you can blow all you want.you sure have no proof.all my sources say so.plus i think you know noting about pit bulls.i posted dogs killing wolves many times before,i listed websites showing dog with killed wolf.the pit is listed as a man stopper by all knowledgeable dog men.it is listed as having the most strength most, powerful jaws and tenacity in the canine world.i quoted my sources everytime.you are like a Little kid that has to be right.you ignore every bit of proof you do not want to hear.so what, you're just a small little baby that has to be right.

Answer by texas
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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mromero and big dog have proven this firedragon wrong over and over.mromero knows about dogs in general.big dog knows about pit bulls and dog fighting.proof has been quoted by big dog over and over.it does no good because firedragon is just not going to use nothing but his theroy, that packs of wolves kill some dogs.so i see nothing but packs killing a dog on the internet.big deal it does'nt prove the wolf is a champ pit fighter.in fact the truth is a wolf is'nt a good pit fighter.they were used years ago,and were killed by the pit bulls.thats pretty common dog man knowledge.firedragon has nothing to prove otherwise.and i know of pits that weigh over 100lbs.that right there proves he knows not one thing of pits.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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Texas says, "that packs of wolves kill some dogs.so i see nothing but packs killing a dog on the internet.big deal it does'nt prove the wolf is a champ pit fighter.in fact the truth is a wolf is'nt a good pit fighter.they were used years ago,and were killed by the pit bulls.thats pretty common dog man knowledge." Haha! You must be mromero and BigHOG. You are just stupid. First of all, NEITHER of you know anything about dog fighting. It's obvious you have never even been to one...secondly, it doesn't matter. Only a very stupid person would compare a little dog like the "pit" to a wolf. When seven fighting pit bulls can't kill an old woman and she fights them off and NO pit bull has ever killed a healthy adult ...it tells you something!! Haha! Wolves kill steers and even moose!!! Most that die will die fighting each other. Most pit bulls die of old age or neglect. It tells these folks reading this that you are one big loser!!! It isn't "pit bull" pit knowledge that dogs killed wolves off. The fact is that a pit bull fighter won't even bet against a bigger healthy dog. Wolves would rip pits apart and have. They are too dangerous to control ... you are a complete idiot. Dogs are like child wolves. They aren't as powerful, they can't bite NEARLY as hard, and they have premature characteristics. Bit on that bub. This old lady whipped some pit bull ass and the pit bull ran off! Pit bull attacks woman, 77, in Kingston By Jesse J. Smith , Freeman staff 05/15/2004 Advertisement KINGSTON - A 77-year-old Kingston woman was attacked by an unleashed pit bull terrier this week, four months after city leaders agreed pit bull owners didn't have to register their dogs. Ellen Bruns was attacked about 1:30 p.m. Monday as she walked on Warren Street, according to Kingston Fire Department records. Bruns, an avid walker and a familiar face on Uptown streets, suffered two lacerations to her face and a puncture wound to her hand. She was taken by ambulance to Kingston Hospital, where she was treated and released. The dog, a 5-year-old pit bull terrier belonging to Josh Williams of 9 Warren St., fled after the attack but later returned home. Ulster County Senior Public Health Sanitarian Raymond Krom said the dog had been confined in the house but somehow escaped.

Answer by Bev
Submitted on 6/3/2004
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Of course, from paper reports, it seems that the law and the medical people and everyone else can tell when it is a wolf kill because of the terrible wounds. Dogs apparently don't lead serious wounds. "Wolves In The News Wolves are sometimes charged in the news media with killing hundreds of livestock animals in a single night. The Independent, a London based newspaper, carried a story about the recent deaths of 403 sheep falling over a ravine in the Mercantour massif in the French Alps (Litchfield 2002). The newspaper first attributed the deaths of the sheep to a violent storm or an attack by feral dogs. But when the corpses were examined "...the carcasses showed several animals were bitten by the powerful jaws of animals, almost certainly wolves." Apparently the sheep had hurled themselves off the ravine in their panic to escape the savage onslaught. No other evidence was offered by the reporter, save the circumstantial fact that wolves are recolonising the region." http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/a-d7-depredation-surplus.html

Answer by Sunriver
Submitted on 6/3/2004
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I think he might be right. It is not uncommon for large predators to bite the arm off people and hyena's consume the ENTIRE animal, including the bones, hoves, and horns!! Spotted Hyena (Crocuta crocuta) Diet and Hunting Behavior Hyena's teeth are especially large, set in a heavy jaw, and can crush through an ungulate's thick femur. Hyenas will ingest every piece of the animal. Bones, horns, hooves, even teeth are digested completely within 24 hours. Hyenas have the ability to eat and digest bones due to immensely powerful jaws, and the highly acidic digestive fluids in their stomach. Due to the fact that they eat so much bone matter, their feces are often white. http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=75 25-stone lion bites off keeper's arm From Ananova 13 th May 2002 http://www.bigcats.org/abc/attacks/tampa.html A zookeeper in Florida has had her right arm bitten off while feeding a 12-year-old male lion. Max, who weighs 25 stone, bit the arm off at Busch Gardens in Tampa. He attacked the keeper through a bar-style fence while she was giving her family a behind-the-scenes tour of the theme park. The unnamed woman was flown with the severed limb to Tampa General Hospital by helicopter. � Ananova 13 th May 2002 ----------- Zoo lion bites off British tourist's forearm From Ananova 30 th January 2003 A British tourist who tried to stroke a caged lion at a Spanish zoo has had one of her arms bitten off. The 54-year-old is in a stable condition in hospital after the incident, in which her arm was ripped off at the elbow. The woman, who has not been named, had been visiting the zoo in Benimantell, near Alicante, with a British group. She reportedly strayed from her companions and put her arm through the bars of a lion pen. A lioness named Marta bit her hand and eventually ripped it off at the elbow. Other lions then pounced on the severed limb, Spain's Efe news agency said. The woman is in hospital in Villajoyosa.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/3/2004
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WOLVES TEAR THE ANIMALS APART, BITE THEIR LIMBS IN TWO, SCATTER THE BODY PARTS. DOGS JUST LEAVE BITES AND MAYBE THE ANIMAL WILL BLEED TO DEATH. DOGS ARE VERY WEAK COMPARED TO WOLVES, ESPECIALLY PITS. IF WOLF KILL, FIND LARGE FARM ANIMALS TORN TO BITS. IF PIT BULL ATTACK, FIND ELDERLY WOMAN IN WHEELCHAIR WITH SOME BLOOD. Wolf Kill http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/a-d4-depredation-verify.html Wolf Depredation 4. Verifying Wolf Kills A verified wolf kill means that the death of an animal was investigated by an agency independent of livestock producers and confirmed as killed by a wolf. Verified kills are the most reliable objective gauge of depredation. However, although verified losses are likely to be true, they are criticised as recording only minimum losses. Some field research suggests that unconfirmed (non-verified) wolf kills might be six times the number of verified kills (Bjorge et al 1985). Until this issue is clarified the number of verified versus unconfirmed wolf kills will remain a controversial issue. Distinguish Depredation From Scavenging: Animals scavenged by wolves are already dead, having died from other causes, such as ill health, accident or other predators. So look for indications that a struggle took place: that the prey animal was grappled alive. Haemorrhages beneath the skin - on the neck, throat, back or hindquarters - indicate a struggle, because only live animals bleed when bitten. Identify Signs Of Different Predators: Distinguish depredation by wolves from other predators. The combination of certain wounds suggest a wolf: Bites and large jagged wounds on flanks, hindquarters and upper shoulders of large livestock, like cattle and horses Bites on head, neck, throat, back and hindquarters of small livestock, like sheep and calves Size and spacing of puncture wounds on the carcass matching the diameter and spacing of wolf canines Signs of feeding on viscera and hindquarters Broken and chewed limb bones Carcass almost totally consumed or torn apart and scatted by successive feedings Large prey eaten on site and smaller ones dragged a short distance from the kill site. Dogs Typically attack several sheep in a flock. They bite the back, flanks, rear and hind legs of sheep, causing abundant multiple wounds. Unless the dogs are feral they often leave their quarry uneaten. University-area resident attacked by unchained dog By Amy Wheeler Published: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 Article Tools: Page 1 of 2 http://www.thelantern.com/news/2003/07/29/Campus/UniversityArea.Resident.Attacked. By.Unchained.Dog-448872.shtml Media Credit: Elizabeth A. Nihiser A woman in a wheelchair was maimed last Wednesday at 424 E. 14th Ave. by a pit bull. A pit bull attacked a woman in a wheelchair Wednesday in the campus area, biting her legs and arms. Debra Ballin, 50, a resident of East 14th Avenue, was taken to the Ohio State Medical Center and released on Thursday, said a neighbor of Ballin's. The neighbor, who asked not to be identified, was an eyewitness to the attack, which occurred around 11:30 p.m. "I saw Deb in the alley coming back from the store," the witness said. "The dog was in the parking lot, not chained up, and it went after her. It bit her on the leg and then grabbed her arm and started shaking her. I got concerned because the dog could have yanked her out of the wheelchair."

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/3/2004
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Biting through and tearing off a human arm is much different than tearing off a moose leg. I was referring to an animal leg. The human body is without question the weakest and most frail in the world. I would suggest to you that the animals bit through these people. I still maintain my position that wolves cannot bite through nor can it tear off a moose leg or even a deer leg for that matter. I live with these animals and have for my entire life where do you live firedraggons, or is this all what you have been reading about. I have shot many deer and elk I have also seen the carcase of a moose that wolves have been feeding on and the legs were still attached. I keep trying to call your bluff, and you avoid my offers like the plague.. Your either full of it or you are really getting off on this.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/3/2004
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Biting through and tearing off a human arm is much different than tearing off a moose leg. I was referring to an animal leg. The human body is without question the weakest and most frail in the world. I would suggest to you that the animals bit through these people. I still maintain my position that wolves cannot bite through nor can it tear off a moose leg or even a deer leg for that matter. I live with these animals and have for my entire life where do you live firedraggons, or is this all what you have been reading about. I have shot many deer and elk I have also seen the carcase of a moose that wolves have been feeding on and the legs were still attached. I keep trying to call your bluff, and you avoid my offers like the plague.. Your either full of it or you are really getting off on this.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/3/2004
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mromero, your "offers" are pure fantasy. It's impossible to believe your claims, based not upon facts, but upon a deranged mind. You are sick. You don't acccept simple truths. I have already posted the characteristics of wolfs by wild life experts that have saidd the wolf can bite through a moose leg. Also, you are a stupid moron, completely so...did you read about the hyena? It eats animals whole ... skull, legs, hooves.....and even has white poop because of the bone. Lions can easily bite a leg off and do when they kill animals to eat. You just don't want to admit that you know nothing of animals and saying you "work" with them might convince another moron, but not someone that knows anything dealing with science. You have some crazy...Dazzman ... wants to fight it out to thee death. Haha! Dude, if you can't handle basic facts about punk dogs, can you handle a real person? I don't think so!!! Haha! I have also posted that wolves fight to the death regularly...that's how most of them die. Most pit bulls die of constipation or old age!!! haha! MOST DOGS KILLED BY WOLVES ARE "HERDING" DOGS OR HUNTING DOGS, MOST OF WHICH WOULD EAT PIT BULLS ALIVE. I HAVE THE STATS ON THIS TOO. Wolves DO kill dogs one on one. In fact, most of the time, it's the lone wolves that kill dogs, not the pack. I have posted this from the US Fish and Wildlife studies. The wolf sees the dog as a competitor. There are many lone wolves out there that have been culled from the pack or have chosen to be alone. No, pit bull attacks don't involve "breaking bones" and biting adult arms off. The wolf can bite the leg off a steer or even a moose. The pit bull has NEVER bitten an arm off an adult human and ... to my knowledge, not even a child. Their jaws just don't have the strength. If you find that pit's can, post the site so that was can all see it. I have posted many sites that say wolves can bite through skulls and thigh bones of the largest animals. The aspects of a dog, as has been stated...that allowed it to be domesticated was undevelopment. It was like a child, exccept it had a smaller head. Over tens of thousands of years, did humans select the traits they wanted ... it was not natural selection, where in the wild only the strongest survive. In most pit rings, the owner or handler stops the fight before death results and so the dog fights another day. That isn't natural selection. As it has been stated on this forum, most wolves die fighting each other and there is no owner to stop the fight. Why is the dog so much weaker than the wolf? Even in the beginning, the weaker wolf that could not compete for food started out as scavengers around human camp sites. They became accustomed to man ... remember, at this time, the dire wolf still existed and it weighed 300 pounds or more!! Probably, very small wolves that were not developed sexually or physically had arrested behavior. Humans have secondary sexual characteristics. For example, as children, our pubic hair is often straight ... as we mature, the hair kinks. Boys begin to grow beards and the voice depends. Girls are about as strong as boys but then the hormones take over and the young men become MUCH stronger, to a point that women cannot compete in just about any event. Boys certainly change...their strength, aggression, and so on. Wolves are that way, but dogs are like arrested wolves, forever in their childhood. Weak, less agressive, and playful. They teeth are not as long, their jaws are only a fraction of the bite force.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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NO NO my offers are very real. I don't have a Pit just a now 140 pound American bull. I do however know about 3 people that would love to participate. We'll even video it for free and post it on the Internet for your family. Its not a bluff we are all ready when you are. I even have on of the smaller German Shepherds that we will start out with. This dog is older and you should be able to take him no problem. He has never lost against anyone and has 102 take downs on duty with the sheriffs dept. where I live. Nobody has ever beat him, but he's been retired for a couple of months. My ABD hits and bites about twice as hard as all of the depts dogs. But you should be able to take them, no problem. Just help us to arrange the meeting. And if your afraid of Police Dogs then there have been about 20-30 people that I have seen or heard from that would love to try you out on the little pit. For a trainer that would be like me with like dogs so that you can see what your up against is at www.frtci.net/~fillet/index.html Now I don't know these guys but my dog has been compared to one of his at many competitions. This will just give you a little taste of what you would be up against in my fantasy. Just waiting on you, guaranteed to make you think that you just jumped into a bathtub with a hairdryer.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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If you read back into my postings I have only quoted on book "K9 Bodyguards". You can get the listings of Pit Bulls that have achieved this and many other titles. You great german shepherd is #1 at nothing and everyone that owns one will tell you that. They are also the 3rd most likely dog to KILL in unprovoked attacks. This dog was also 2nd in bites of the same nature. You've seen my new posting. This site will give you several that have achieved all kinds of titles. In fact the American Bull has been showing up the GSD for the last 5 years and everyone in the sport knows that. But none of this has anything to do with the question posed; What has more PSI the wolf or the PIT? Quite frankly I think that it depends on the animal studied. A long narrow object is always weaker than a short blunt object. So if you look at this as a engineering problem, the answer is simple, The Pit. If you just look at the muscular structure of the two, once again the Pit has to be the winner. If you look at shear determination, well anyone who's had any experience with Pits will tell you that the Pit once again will win. Of course these subjects would have to be the one of the many 100lbs. + specimens. And just in case things get out of control it must be one of the thousand that has earned a SchHIII Title. And if the wolf gets loose you want a Pit there so the wolf can be NEUTRALIZED by the dog. \\ Search the Schutzhund site and you'll find that thousands of pits have earned this title. as well as french sport Like I and others have told you time an time again. You can't argue with success, well a narcissist like you will http://www.bignelly.istcool.de/

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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Dude, I went to your site and it said this, " "This Schutzhund & Working Dogs site owned by SCH-titled American Bulldogs." It didn't say anything about 300 dogs being whatever. In fact, they only compete among themselves, kind of like the "einstein competition for people that are retarded." Haha! Also, the book you keep mentioning...Miniatlas of Dog Breeds ... I have looked at it, but it was written by a Peter Larken. He is a fish expert!@!! He works for the Canadian fisheries!!! At any rate, MOST of the dogs killed by wolves are either sheppards, guard dogs, or hunting dogs ... all of which are tough. I have presented where a single wolf killed a steer. I have shown where dog attacks are mild compared to wolf attacks. I have also presented scientific text that wolves can bit the leg off a moose, whereas pits chew on cattle bones for months (you can buy them at the store). Only a person that is mentally challenged would think that a dog that can't even kill a healthy adult and couldn't survive in the wild could beat a wolf. Haha! Can you imagine a pit chasing a deer!! Haha! So, you respond with obscenities and rudeness. Hey, here's where two large pit bulls attack and the worst injury the elderly woman suffers is when she falls down!!! Pit bull tears ear off postal worker TEVIAH MORO AND BRIAN CLEEVE, Free Press Reporter; Special to The Free Press 2004-06-04 03:00:45 Her ear torn off, both wrists broken, a Dresden letter carrier yesterday recalled the "terrifying" seconds she endured in a pit-bull attack. "It just grabbed my ear and tore it off," Darlene Wagner said of one of the two pit bulls that attacked her Wednesday on her deliveries in Chatham. Wagner, 58, a relief carrier, was climbing the stairs of a house for a delivery when the dogs lunged through an open screen door and chased her. Trying to get away, Wagner said she rushed down the stairs and reached the sidewalk, only to trip on the curb. "I landed on my wrists and broke both my wrists," she said yesterday from her Dresden home. HAHA! PIT BULLS! COULD THEY SURVIVE IN THE WILD? I DON'T THINK SO, THEY CAN'T SURVIVE IN THE CITY AND CAN ONLY EAT IF SOMEONE FEEDS THEM!!! HAHA!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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Oh, come on!! Stop sounding like a punk!! "A Carnivore Diet Wolves eat meat almost exclusively. In the wild, some observers have seen them eat small birds or mice, but they prefer larger prey such as goats, sheep, or deer. Wolves work as a team to attack herds of these large animals. They often go after the old, young, or sick, since they are easier to kill. Many times it is feast or famine for wolves. When they find food, they eat as much as they can, because they may go for many days before eating again. Wolves can kill their prey effectively because they have incredibly strong jaws, which can bite through even the toughest of animal hides. They can even break hard bones in just a few bites. Wolves at the San Diego Zoo are fed a special ground meat for carnivores, as well as large bones to chew on." FROM SAN DIEGO ZOO http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-wolf.html "14. How strong are a gray wolves' jaws? (top) The massive molars and powerful jaws of a wolf are used to crush the bones of its prey. The biting capacity of a wolf is 1,500 pounds of pressure per square inch. The strength of a wolf's jaws makes it possible to bite through a moose femur in six to eight bites." "19. What do gray wolves die from? (top) The natural causes of wolf mortality are primarily starvation, which kills mostly pups, and death from other wolves because of territory fights. While not usually a big problem, disease such as mange and canine parvovirus can be a concern in small and recovering populations. Injuries caused by prey results in some deaths. Human-caused mortality including legal, illegal, and accidental causes, can be high in some populations. Pup mortality rates are highly variable, but approximately 40 to 60% of wolf pups die each year. " http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/faq.asp#11

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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mini atlas of dog breeds by andrew de prisco and james b. johnson.t.f.h. publications.just like your dumb ass called roy horn -coy horn you are off in the head.modern maturity -by ted williams a contributing editor at AUDUBON MAGAZINE,writes about wildlife and the environment for national publications.bringing back the beast of lore. vicious was a term applied to the wolf but it applied also to revered predators.the difference was that while certain large cats and bears attacked humans sometimes without provocation,wolves charged in the opposite direction.kings and knights were lion hearted he who likened them to wolves might get a lance though the withers.in captivity baited bears fought to the death WOLVES ROLLED OVER AND URINATED ON THEMSELVES.WOLVES HAVE EVEN ALLOWED PEOPLE TO CARRYOFF THEIR PUPS,SOMETIMES WHINING PITEOUSLY AND FOLLOWING FOR MILES.THE SPECIES INGRAINED FEAR OF MAN WAS CHRONICLED BY AUDUBON WHO,CHECKING ON A PIT TRAP WITH A KENTUCKY FARMER,OBSERVED THREE WOLVES AT THE BOTTOM,''THEIR EARS LAID CLOSE OVER THE HEAD,THEIR EYES INDICATING FEAR MORE THAN ANGER''CASUALLY THE FARMER LOWERED HIMSELF INTO THE PIT AND LIFTING THE HIND LEGS OF EACH ANIMAL,SLIT THE HAMSTRING TENDONS WITH HIS KNIFE.HE THEN SLIPPED NOOSES OVER EACH OF THEIR HEADS.''WE HAULED THE FIRST UP MOTIONLESS WITH FRIGHT,AS DEAD.''WROTE AUDUBON,ITS JAWS WIDE OPEN,AND THE GURGLE IN ITS THROAT ALONE INDICATING THAT IT WAS ALIVE. ALSO IN SAME-BUT BEING A WOLF IS DANGEROUS AND DIFFICULT.FLYING HOOFS CAN SMASH BONES.SUCH FORMIDABLE PREY AS MOOSE AND CARIBOU ARE NOT DISPATCHED AT WILL:THEIR DEFENSES MUST BE METICULOUSLY PROBED;AS MANY AS 12 MOOSE MAY BE TESTED FOR EVERY ONE KILLED,AND THE KILL MAY NOT COME EASILY OR QUICKLY. LOOK BOZO YOU ARE A IDIOT.YOU SAY THAT HOUNDS AND SHEEPDOGS CAN OUT FIGHT THE BREED OF DOG BRED TO FIGHT.THAT RIGHT THERE SHOWS YOU TO BE INSANE.THE EXPERTS PLAINLY STATE TO BE ''A DOG OF POWER,PASSION,AND UNDYING WILLINGNESS.PURE GAME,THE BREEDS TENACITY AND AND ACCOMPANYING STRENGH ARE UNPARALLELED IN THE CANINE WORLD.THEY ALSO LIST AS A POTENTIAL MAN-STOPPER.I POSTED ALL OF THIS BEFORE.I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK.ALL I CAN SAY IS GET YOU A COWARD WOLF AND WE CAN SET YOU UP SOME MONEY MATCHES.BECAUSE I KNOW YOUR PUNK ASS IS WRONG AND CAN BACK MY FACTS UP WITH A DOG.ALL YOU CAN DO IS SPOUT OFF NONSENSE AND EXCUSES.

Answer by Hound
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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macker, bite is not always proportional to head size. A large English Mastiff or Saint Bernard has a bigger head and jaws than any Dogue De Bordeaux. Bordeaux heads are just really big for the dog's size (which is usually 90 - 110 pounds, not 145+ pounds like some websites say). I have even seen Bullmastiffs, American Bulldogs, and Neapolitan Mastiffs with bigger heads than Bordeaux. Heck, I have even seen pits with bigger heads. How the heck you ever got the idea that Bordeauxs are the strongest biting is strange. Yes, they have big heads and big jaws, but they are not by any means the strongest biting. Next you will be telling everyone that Newfoundlands have the strongest bite. LOL!!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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When two pit bulls attack and elderly woman in a wheelchair, before she can fight them off, her hands were bitten and bleeding; however, when a WOLF ATTACKS, BONES ARE CRUSHED AND BROKEN. LIMBS ARE SEVERED. THIS IS ACCEPTED BY MEDICAL AND LEGAL AUTHORITIES. HERE IS THE CASE HERE!! Mahlandt v. Wild Canid Survival & Research Center, Inc. 588 F.2d 626 (8th Cir. 1979) �Mr. Mahlandt felt that they did not look like animal bites. The parallel scars on Daniel's thigh appeared to match the configuration of the barbs or tines on the fence. The expert as to the behavior of wolves opined that the lacerations were not wolf bites or wounds caused by wolf claws. Wolves have powerful jaws and a wolf bite will result in massive crushing or severing of a limb. He stated that if Sophie had bitten Daniel there would have been clear apposition of teeth and massive crushing of Daniel's hands and arms which were not injured�

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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can you read ok. I have never mentioned that book. All of my posts are here, find it. The only book that I have ever referred to was K9 Bodyguard, by Mike Harlow. I also only said that these are the types of dog that you will be up against. My dog has been compared to his by several different trainers. I just don't train commercially, so in turn I don't have a web page to show you what you would be eaten by. This just proves that your delusional as well. By the way I don't rely on a website for my info i know some of the people that own the dogs. Search through the pit bull breeders sites and you will find the SchH3 dogs all over the place. You can also call the schutzund club in your area and go and witness it for yourself the next time they have a competition. It actually quiet easy to find these handlers and the dogs. Here is just one of a few this search took me about 3 minutes to find these dogs that hold NKC III SchH 3 AKC 3 titles. So go funk your self. heres your info everyone else can go to these sites and find out how much you actually know, nothing. http://www.joshuakennels.com/moreinfo.htm You are proving my statements every time that you post something. All of your so called "Resources" refer to opinions of people who live in the city and wouldn't know a wolf if one came up a bit him on the ass. You Keep saying "SOMEONE SEEN" every time you post something. SO WHAT!!! Someone seen Elvis, Bigfoot, and Aliens with little greeen heads and big black egg shaped eye, which I'm starting to believe you are. Bigfoot was seen attacking a moose and tearing it's leg off and eating right through the bone as well. Only children and fool believe that too. Oh ya funny thats exactly what they believe the bull dog's PSI to be. All the same I live here and have NEVER SEEN THE FEMURS in two pieces. Checked with Denver zoo, and Cheyenne Mt. Zoo, Albuquerque I don't think it's a zoo but a rescue for cats and wolves and k9 spec. The Zoo in Dallas all of them said pretty much the same thing "The cats might do something like that or the Hyena's and Bears but not K9's." The guy at Denver said "I have no doubt that the Hippo could do it to any of the above animals, probably bite all of them in half and do it in the wild for space, but no real reason to hear." I asked him the same ques. and he said "It would probably depend on the animal and the situation". I also call the San Diego zoo and pretended that I was doing a project for school. The bones that they give the wolves and many other carnivores are beef or horse bones. The same ones that I buy for my ABD at pets mart. They are the femur bones of cattle, my dog goes through on in about 2-3 days. I asked "wow, do they just like bite the bones in half or do they chew them down like my dog"? "They can't bite them in half, maybe a bear or one of the male Lions could but not the wolf. They love to chew on them and do so in order of the pack". Me "So they share it to". "Well kind of only when the alfa gets TIERED of it". Read em and weep, freak. There you have it. Your a freak and everything I've said is true. You just can't understand how people who live around these animals and take care of these animal could possibly know better than your books. That just shows your level of wisdom, not very high. there is no substitute for experience. Have a good day.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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can you read ok. I have never mentioned that book. All of my posts are here, find it. The only book that I have ever referred to was K9 Bodyguard, by Mike Harlow. I also only said that these are the types of dog that you will be up against. My dog has been compared to his by several different trainers. I just don't train commercially, so in turn I don't have a web page to show you what you would be eaten by. This just proves that your delusional as well. By the way I don't rely on a website for my info i know some of the people that own the dogs. Search through the pit bull breeders sites and you will find the SchH3 dogs all over the place. You can also call the schutzund club in your area and go and witness it for yourself the next time they have a compilation. It actually quiet easy to find these handlers and the dogs. Here is just one of a few this search took me about 3 minutes to find these dogs that hold NKC III SchH 3 AKC 3 titles. So go fuk your self. heres your info everyone else can go to these sites and find out how much you actually know, nothing. http://www.joshuakennels.com/moreinfo.htm You are proving my statements every time that you post something. All of your so called "Resources" refer to opinions of people who live in the city and wouldn't know a wolf if one came up a bit him on the ass. You Keep saying "SOMEONE SEEN" every time you post something. SO WHAT!!! Someone seen Elvis, Bigfoot, and Aliens with little green heads and big black egg shaped eye, which I'm starting to believe you are. Bigfoot was seen attacking a moose and tearing it's leg off and eating right through the bone as well. Only children and fool believe that too. Oh ya funny thats exactly what they believe the bull dog's PSI to be. All the same I live here and have NEVER SEEN THE FEMURS in two pieces. Checked with Denver zoo, and Cheyenne Mt. Zoo, Albuquerque I don't think it's a zoo but a rescue for cats and wolves and k9 spec. The Zoo in Dallas all of them said pretty much the same thing "The cats might do something like that or the Hyena's and Bears but not K9's." The guy at Denver said "I have no doubt that the Hippo could do it to any of the above animals, probably bite all of them in half and do it in the wild for space, but no real reason to hear." I asked him the same ques. and he said "It would probably depend on the animal and the situation". I also call the San Diego zoo and pretended that I was doing a project for school. The bones that they give the wolves and many other carnivore's are beef or horse bones. The same ones that I buy for my ABD at pets mart. They are the femur bones of cattle, my dog goes through on in about 2-3 days. I asked "wow, do they just like bite the bones in half or do they chew them down like my dog"? "They can't bite them in half, maybe a bear or one of the male Lions could but not the wolf. They love to chew on them and do so in order of the pack". Me "So they share it to". "Well kind of only when the alfa gets TIERED of it". Read em and weep, freak. There you have it. Your a freak and everything I've said is true. You just can't understand how people who live around these animals and take care of these animal could possibly know better than your books. That just shows your level of wisdom, not very high. there is no substitute for experience. Have a good day.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 6/4/2004
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pits are the dog breed to fight.the ones at the top of the pit dog fights,the very,very best ones are unbelievable,in their fighting ability.if you guys can't get it what do i care?I'veknown and do know people that fight dogs for big money.they pay big for there dogs.they train them.its their life.wolves have been matched they can't win,they just do not see the fight the same as the pit bull.if you want to think otherwise have at it.but your wrong and i know it.ALL OF THIS IS GOING NOWHERE AND MAYBE IF YOU TRY YOU WILL FIND THE TRUTH.IF IT WAS A ANIMAL THAT COULD WHIP OR KILL THE PIT LIKE A BIG CAT I WOULD AGREE.BUT A WOLF.IT DOES'NTWORK SO THINK I'M JUST SOME KIND OF LIAR,BUT I REALLY HAVE NO REASON TO DECEIVE YOU.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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First of all, give the name and number of the people you spoke to so that others can call the zoo. The person in Denver didn't know what you were speaking about. I will post the number if you don't, liar! I don't think you even called. Let's hear who you talked to! Mromero, I went to the cite you mentioned. It doesn't say anything about winning 300 S awards...it's just some guy that raises bull dogs. What does that have to do with pits? Anyway, this is all he says (you are a liar): "Time Bulldog, litterally caught over 100 wild hogs and never considered giving up on any bad boar. Another aspect that we are extremely proud of, Cowboy has produced 4 generations of certified hips, but more importantly, 4 generations of ol' fashioned Bulldogs that are willing to do modern day work, such as, show conformation, home protection, shutzhund, french ring, etc. December 24, 1999, while I and my family were out for dinner, someone came on our property and poisoned Cowboy with anti-freeze. I buried Cowboy Christmas morning. I don't understand things like this however, God has blessed us with an outstanding son of Cowboy, "Joshua's Ol' Southern White" aka Josh. The "Legend"" http://www.joshuakennels.com/moreinfo.htm Why do you make stuff up to support a position that only a madman would take? Oh, by the way, the person called "EVERYTHING" was really smart. He had a feel for genetics, wildlife, zoology...it was excellent and a great post. He used good examples too, demonstrating his knowledge of the subject. I was impressed. What happened to him?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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Mromero, just tell us the NAMES of the zoo people you talked to and tell us their PHONE NUMBERS. I know that many here want to confirm what you have said. "The wolf has very strong jaws. The jaws of a wolf have a crushing pressure twice that of a large dog such as a German Shepherd. Wolves do not chew their food; they rip off chunks and swallow them whole. The remains of animals killed by wolves often later become meals for coyotes, foxes, birds, and other smaller creatures. In nature, nothing is wasted." http://www.geocities.com/thesciencefiles/wolf/page.html GRAY WOLF (Canis lupus) The gray wolf, commonly referred to as tundra wolf or timber wolf, is the largest of all wild canids, although its size varies noticeably throughout its large range including Minnesota, Michigan and Montana in the United States and many remote areas of Canada, Alaska and Europe. The largest wolves occurring in the farthest northern reaches of its distribution, with males measuring over 30 inches at the shoulders and weighing up to 175 pounds. http://home.globalcrossing.net/~brendel/wolf.html Wolf size varies with the geographic area in which the wolf lives. http://www.crinkles.com/wolfparade.html STRENGTHS: � It can reach speeds of 55 mph in short sprints, and can run for long distances. � Its sense of smell, sight and hearing are so acute that it can detect prey from almost two miles away. � Its long, sharp canines can easily rip through flesh, and its powerful molars can crush bone. http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/animalfaceoff/challenge/challenge6.html IT IS UNLIKELY THAT THE LARGEST WOLF HAS EVER BEEN WEIGHED; HOWEVER, THE LARGEST ARE SAID TO BE IN THE MOUNTAINS OF NEPAL; HOWEVER, EVEN IN NORTH AMERICA, WOLVES REACH 200LBS!! "The wolf..... also known as lobo, timber wolf, gray wolf , buffalo wolf and arctic wolf. The gray wolf - of which there are many variations- used to run over almost the whole northern hemisphere, but man has driven them back to the " wastelands". "The red wolf - much smaller than the gray wolf- lives in the south of the USA." "A gray wolf stands up to 3 feet ( 90 cm) high and 4 feet long ( 120 cm) The weigh a average of 100 lbs ( 45 kilo) but some make it up to 197 lbs. " http://members.tripod.com/~NUTELA/Facts.html The pack consists normally of the alpha male (father), the alpha female (mother) and offspring. MOST wolves only live four years and die fighting. Many predators do not live to grow as large as they can today because of hunting and conditions ... that's why, for example, snakes, crocs, and alligators found today are smaller than at the turn of the century ... large ones are found and killed by hunters or not found at all. Wolves are not like dogs. All pit bulls are in households and we know the largest. Almost all wolves are in the wild and there's no way to tell the largest wolf. WE DO KNOW THAT WOLVES HAVE SUPERIOR SENSES, INCLUDING SMELL, AND SUPERIOR STRENTH and INTELLIGENCE!! "It is estimated that a wolf's jaw can exert more than 1500 pounds of pressure per square inch. It's easy to see how a wolf is capable of breaking the femur of an adult moose. "The power of a wolf's bite is incredible," says David Mech. He recounts watching wolves on the run leap at the rump of an adult moose and rip it open, even though this meant tearing through four inches of finely packed hair and a thick hide. He notes that wolves also hook their fangs into the rubbery nose of a moose and "can cling there despite the swinging head of the moose, which may even raise the wolf off the ground." Wolves strong teeth and jaws are connected to strong skulls which are large, long, and taper forward, averaging nine to eleven inches long and five to six inches wide. Mech notes that the "volume of the brain case is 150 to 170 cm3, which is at least 30 cm3 greater than that of most dogs." Also superior to dogs in their sense of smell, wolves outperformed them in an experiment conducted by Grzimek, recounted in The Wolf Almanac by Robert H. Busch. Grzimek covered trays of food to test the relative senses of smell in wolves and domestic dogs. He found that his test wolves required five minutes to determine which tray contained food, while his test dogs required an hour or so to determine the same thing. Dr. Harry Frank of Michigan State University kept both wolves and dogs as house pets and tested them on various learning skills. He found that the wolves caught on very quickly about how to open a door by turning the knob. They learned this merely by watching a human do so. In contrast, his dogs never learned. " http://www.kerwoodwolf.com/BIOLOGY.htm Artic wolves, some of the largest, will even eat bone because of scarcity of food!!! Pits will barely penetrate soft tissue! "The Arctic Wolf will kill virtually any animal they can catch, and eat every part of it, including skin, fur, and bones. The wolves have up to 800 square miles in which to search for their prey. When Winter temperatures plummet, the wolves may follow migrating caribou South." http://www.arctic-wolves.com/arctic-wolves-general-information.htm

Answer by DAZZMAN
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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dud puss why don't you buy a wolf?we can fight it in the PITS.GET RICH PUSS BOY.CAUSE I SAY THE WOLF IS LIKE YOU-NOTHING ONE ON ONE.BLOW HARD.ALL YOUR LITTLE FACTS AND SUPOSES =NOTHING IN THE RING.IF I FELT LIKE YOU I WOULD GET ONE.I JUST SAW A GUY WITH ONE AN HOUR AGO AT THE PARK.I ASKED HIM IF IT COULD FIGHT,HE SAID ABOUT AS WELL AS A HUSKIE OR SO,HES NOT REALLY MUCH OF A FIGHTER.DO YOU THINK HE WOULD DO O.K. AGAINST FIGHTING DOGS I ASKED.NAW HE AIN'T NOTHING LIKE THAT HE ANSWERED.I TOLD HIM ABOUT YOUR IDEAS,HE SAID YEAH A WOLF CAN HUNT IN A PACK AND KILL ALOT OF THINGS.BUT REALLY THEY JUST ARE'NTONE ON ONE FIGHTERS.THEY ONLY LIKE ONE PERSON TOO,YOU HAVE TO WATCH THEM AROUND PEOPLE MORE THAN ANYTHING.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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We aren't discussing that here, although, again, you are wrong. Can't you speak English? Does everyone that support the pit have substandard English? True, this is a forum. I don�t expect your spelling and grammar to always be correct because you are typing and thinking�I know mine isn�t; whoever, your sentences often don�t make sense and I can�t tell what you are saying. Either you are the same person, or there are a lot of illiterate pit bull people here telling us how smart pit bulls are!! Haha! Texas says, �just like the tosa editor said;the toughest dog in the world IS A 60-70LB.PIT BULL OR A 130LB. TOSA.ONCE THIS STUFF HAS BEEN POSTED FIREDRAGONS AND NEAL ACT LIKE IT CAN BE FORGOTTEN,WELL I HAVE SENSE ENOUGH TO REMEMBER.PLUS GO BACK AND REVIEW.SO I SEE HOW FIREDRAGONS CHANGES AS HE NEEDS TO.HE EVEN SAYS THE PIT BULL IS A ''TOUGH DOG'' Yea, yea, yea dude. He added that because many of the readers are pit bull people, but he had just explained that Tosa beat the crap out of pits and that only the runts of the Tosa are small enough to fight a pit and even then � they generally win!!! WE aren�t discussing that here. It�s ridiculous enough to discuss the merits of a pit and Tosa �in the real world, the Tosa always wins and only Tosas become champions! I gave the telephone number and so on to the National Dog Fighting Center. They control ALL dog fighting. The Tosa cost them more than $700 a month just to feed because they will only eat beef �..compare that to dry dog food pits that can be fed for a tenth that! Anyway, real life suggests the pit is just a dog, nothing compared to a wild animal. You have shown NO SCIENTIFIC evidence of anything else. Oh, the zoos don�t call wolves K9 as you and your other screen name � Mromero has said.

Answer by Dog Man
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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mromero, no I am not wrong. Here's an excerpt from at interview with John D. Johnson (the original founder of the American Bulldog). This interview can be read at this website: http://www.american-bulldog.com/jdj_jackson.htm excerpt from interview: Dr. J.: "Where did the name "American Pit Bulldog" come from?" John D.: "This was the name that we originally called these dogs when I was a young man. They were known by other names as well, such as Old Country White, English White, Old Time Bulldog, but probably the most common name was American Pit Bulldog, and when we first started registering these dogs, this was the name we used. it became apparent to me, however, that many people were confusing the American bulldog with the American pit bull terrier because their names were so similar, and so I talked to Tom Stodgill who was the founder of the Animal Research Foundation, which was the registry that I was using, and we decided to change the name officially to American Bulldog. These dogs were originally called American Pit Bulldogs because they were used in the pit to fight other dogs and also especially other large animals. They were differentiated from the American pit bull terrier, however, because there was no terrier blood infused. The infusion of terrier blood brought the size of these dogs down to a more manageable size for handling in the pit and also made it much easier to snatch the dog up, hide him under your coat when you were running from the law, if you got raided fighting dogs. The strength, gameness, and heart, however, all came from the bulldog."

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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No I only said that all of them said pretty much the same thing "The cats might do something like that or the Hyena's and Bears but not K9's." I referred to them as K9s. NOTICE THAT HE IS NOT ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS THAT CHALLENGE ANYTHING THAT FIREDRAGGINGS SAYS. Go back through all of this and you will find that there is NO Scientific evidence that Firedraggings has put forth. Attached hereto is nothing but the conflicting constant plagiarism's that he has copied off of some opinionated website. The persons that wrote and edited these page's placed nothing but OPINION. You sir have produced nothing but spin. When asked any questions about the statements, lies or challenges that you posed to us, answered nothing. You began to learn that we were right so you had to resort to a poor try of debatable spin and childish name calling. So why is it that you won't answer any questions? You said that the pit could never earn schH3 title. I proved that they do in fact hold these titles and many others. You called the Pit a little stupid dog. When I proved that your idiotic statement was one of an mentally indigent child like individual. You avoided the ?'s like the plague. You've talked a tremendous amount and have said NOTHING. You've insulted everyone and have proved NOTHING. You claim to know and have nothing in the way of real EXPERIENCE. When educated by those who are clearly experienced with these animals, you make another totally ignorant statement, revealing you true intellect. When someone tried to help you understand something you just call them a childish name and reject the council of the ones who know. Which shows that you do NOT even notice wisdom much less posses it. Firedraggon you need help this behavior is commonly know bi-polar narcissism. You really do need help. And get you BUM ass out of your mamma's house your old enough now.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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Oh yea firedragingon, Texas and I, or whoever you were referring to, are not the same person. Sorry to disappoint you. We don't need to create fictitious screen names to help us prove anything, that would be you and we all know it. I live far North of Texas assuming that is why he calls himself that. It's a hell of a lot colder here to. And in case you didn't get it in my last mess. I said that they said k9. they referred to them as "no they don't do that, just chew on them like a dog". But don't get me wrong boy they didn't all say that, only one of them. So son are you going to answer any of my questions? What do you say child, are you going to get some help before you really do something stupid?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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Mromero says, "He always thinks that he is fooling someone by calling himself dawn or bev or what ever. If you want the # to the Denver Zoo call 411. The Denver zoo is off of Colorado Blvd. about the 1800N. block right behind the museum of natural history. So anyway the Cheyenne Mountain is in Colorado Springs Colorado. Believe it or not it sits right on the same mountain as N.O.R.A.D is in, call 411. You get the picture, thats how I got the phone#'s and you can do the same. I have no idea who I spoke with. At each Zoo they transfered me three or four times. Anyone of you can do the same." DUDE, I KNOW THE NUMBER TO THE ZOO. YOU ARE LYING ABOUT TALKING TO THEM OR YOU WOULD POST THE PEOPLE YOU SPOKE TO....I KNOW THAT CALLS ARE SO CHEAP THAT MANY WOULD CALL AND FIND OUT YOU ARE LYING. BUT THEY KNOW ALREADY. I HAVE ANSWERED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ...OH, BY THE WAY, YOU CAN'T RELY ON WHAT ONE PERSON SAYS. WHEN YOU CALL JAPAN, WHERE DOG FIGHTING IS LEGAL AND CONTROLLED FROM ONE SOURCE, YOU FIND THAT THE PIT IS NOTHING. THERE WERE SOME PROBLEMS WITH BREEDING FOR SIZE. IT'S MORONIC TO THINK THAT I SPEAK THE TRUTH BECAUSE I LIKE WOLVES. I HAVE NO INTEREST IN THEM, I LIKE DOGS. I DON'T EXPECT DOGS TO FIGHT FOR ME. I CAN DO THAT. I DON'T EXPECT THEM TO KILL FOR ME. THAT'S WHAT THE BOW IS FOR AND THE KNIFE AND THE GUN. HUNTING FOR FOOD. AT ANY RATE, YOU ARE LIKE A CHILD. A VERY DUMB CHILD.

Answer by TEXAS
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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go back and read some of furdraggin early posts.he says he had two dogs killed by a bear before he could reach them.ONE WAS AN AFRICAN HUNTING DOG ILLEGAL IN MANY AREAS.THATS A HOOT FURDRAG.THEY ARE A WILD DOG OF AFRICA!NOBODY HAS THESE ANIMALS.LOL.THEN HE SAYS WHEN PITS HOLD TO LONG THEY ARE ''FANGED''AND MUST BE SEPERATED.WRONG BOZO,HOLDING IS NOT FANGED. FANGED IS WHEN A TOOTH IS THOUGH THE DOGS LIP.[HIS OWN]THEN THEY DEFANG THE DOG WHEN POSSIBLE.HOLDING ON IS GOOD,DOGS ARE NEVER SEPERATED FOR IT.THEY ARE MADE TO SCRATCH TO THE OTHER DOG,IF THEY TURN AWAY WHILE FIGHTING.[TO SHOW THEY WANT TO KEEP FIGHTING,WHILE THE OTHER DOG IS HELD]YOU ARE A TRUE BOZO.HE ALSO SAYS GATORS ATE HIS HUNTING DOG AND THE LOCATOR WAS IN THE GATOR.[IN THE SWAMP AND MOVING]WHAT A DUMB-ASS LIAR.HES AS WINDY AS A SACK OF ASSHOLES!!

Answer by Macker
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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I agree that the pit has stronger jaws tham the wolf, i mean which is a faster sprinter the greyhoud or a wolf. Some dogs have just been selectively bred to have better qualities in certain aspects, a pit has a stronger bite but not the strongest. When creating an argentine dogo the breeder was very specific , he wanted the dogue de bordeux for its biting power to be able to hold on to it's prey. Out of all the pits that were around at the time he patiently waited to find two dogue de bordeuxs. Just look at it's massive head size and of course it's jaw muscles. i know that the dogue de bordeuxs from before arent the same as know but the power hasnt been bred out of them, just mean streak for the most part...and no i dont own a dogue de bordeux i own a dogo and im not trying to say that the dogo has a stronger bite than a pit so get of that.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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Hey, you have a real problem just writing basic English and you are obviously native ... so, what are the odds of so many illiterates on the same forums? I guess it's better with pit bull owners. Anyway, I left the number to call. Everyone knows a pit can't compete with a Tosa. It's a simple fact ... the Tosa is ten times the upkeep. They are even declining in Japan. WOLVES CONSUME EVEN BONES OF PREY http://www.arctic-wolves.com/arctic-wolves-general-information.htm WOLVES EAT ALMOST MEAT EXCLUSIVELY http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/faq.asp#11 PIT BULLS CAN'T HANDLE ELDERLY WOMEN IN WHEELCHAIR, MUST EAT DOG FOOD GIVEN BY HUMANS. www.dailyherald.com/news_story.asp?intid=3812015

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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mromero says, "Attached hereto is nothing but the conflicting constant plagiarism's that he has copied off of some opinionated website. The persons that wrote and edited these page's placed nothing but OPINION." THEY ARE EXPERT OPINION BASED UPON THE BEST SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE. WHAT YOU SAY IS BASED UPON YOUR VERY PSYCHOTIC LIMITED INTELLIGENCE. HAHA! YOU CITE NO EXPERTS OR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER .. JUST LIES. AND EXAMPLE IS THE ZOO. Mromero says, "You began to learn that we were right so you had to resort to a poor try of debatable spin and childish name calling." HAHA! MORON!! YOU STARTED THE NAME CALLING, PLUS YOU ARE OBSCENE AND THREATENING!!! CHILDISH CHALLENGES TO FIGHT A DOG ... COME ON COWARD! WHAT TYPE OF PERSON WANTS THEIR DOG TO FIGHT FOR THEM? HAHA! Mromero says, "So why is it that you won't answer any questions? You said that the pit could never earn schH3 title." HAHA!! I DIDN'T SAY THIS AND YOU CAN'T EVEN SPELL IT! THE TITLE MEANS NOTHING TO ME. YOU LIED AND USED IT TO DEMONSTRATE INTELLIGENCE, BUT IT ONLY DEMONSTRATES OBEDIENCE!!! YOU LIED AND SAID 300 AS THOUGH THEY WERE CHAMPIONS...ALL THESE DOGS PICKED UP POINTS ONLY IN PIT BULL CONTESTS AND IT DIDN'T SAY 300 ... IN FACT, IT DIDN'T SHOW ANY THAT HAD WON ANYTHING!! LIAR! HAHA! THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "PSI" OR INTELLIGENCE. I HAVE POSTED SEVERAL SCIENTIFIC STUDIES THAT SHOW THE WOLF IS SMARTER AND ALSO FACTS THAT SHOW THE BRAIN IS MUCH BIGGER! PITS ARE STUPID ANIMALS WITH SMALL BRAINS. Mromero said, "I proved that they do in fact hold these titles and many others." OH, YEA? THE TITLE MEANS NOTHING TO ME, BUT WHERE IS THIS? YOU QUOTED A SITE THAT SOLD PITS!!! HAHAH! IDIOT! Mromero says, "You called the Pit a little stupid dog. When I proved that your idiotic statement was one of an mentally indigent child like individual. You avoided the ?'s like the plague." HAHA! LOSER! YOU PROVED NOTHING. YOUR SOURCES DIDN'T SAY WHAT YOU SAID THEY CLAIMED. YOU JUST LIED AND PROVED YOU WERE A LIAR!!! DO YOU THINK I AM THE ONLY PERSON TO CHECK!! HAHA! I ANSWERED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS. THE PIT IS NOT AS STRONG AS THE WOLF, NOT AS SMART, IT CAN'T BITE AS HARD ...THERE'S NO COMPARISON. Mromero said, "You've talked a tremendous amount and have said NOTHING. You've insulted everyone and have proved NOTHING. You claim to know and have nothing in the way of real EXPERIENCE." HEY, DUDE. YOU HAVE PROVEN YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL, YOU ARE LIKE A FOOL!! DO YOU THINK THAT EVERYONE IS AS STUPID AS YOU? I THINK IN REAL LIFE THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY OF YOU. Mromero said, "When educated by those who are clearly experienced with these animals, you make another totally ignorant statement, revealing you true intellect." I THINK IT'S JUST YOU THAT AGREES WITH YOU AND YOU CAN BARELY WRITE ENGLISH! YOU ARE DEFINITELY A NATIVE SPEAKING IN YOUR NATIVE TONGUE, BUT OBVIOUSLY, YOU HAVE HAD LITTLE EDUCATION AND NOT DONE WELL WITH WHAT YOU HAVE HAD ..... Mromero says, "Firedraggon you need help this behavior is commonly know bi-polar narcissism. You really do need help. And get you BUM ass out of your mamma's house your old enough now." HAHA! YOU MAKE ME LAUGH LITTLE MAN. THE PIT IS NOT AS STRONG, NOT AS SMART, AND HAS INFERIOR SENSES. THE WOLF CAN SURVIVE IN THE WILD, THE PIT CAN'T SURVIVE IN A PARK. THE WOLF CAN BRING DOWN HUGE GAME...THE PIT CAN'T EVEN KILL INVALIDS THAT ARE ELDERLY! COME ON!

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/6/2004
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Can guard dogs be effective in protecting animals from wolves? I wonder because the wild life sources all say that it only works if humans are there too. Ranchers are not ignorant here and have tried the European guard dogs, but it hasn't worked because they don't have the human intervention and the wolves kill them too! Non-lethal Wolf Depredation Control Methods: How Well Do They Work? by Liz Harper "Guard dogs have long been used in Europe, but their success depends on the shepherding techniques in those countries. Shepherds remain with the flocks and work with the dogs to protect the stock. In the United States, where livestock often move unattended, guard dogs have not been shown to reduce depredation by wolves. Electric fences can be used to exclude predators; however, 6-7-foot-tall woven-wire fences with electrically charged wires along the top and bottom are required to keep wolves out. This may work well for small barnyards or chicken coops, but for larger pastures, these are costly to build and maintain. They also interfere with movement of other animals such as deer and pronghorn." See http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/defenders99com.htm http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/intermed/inter_mgmt/nonlethal.asp

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/6/2004
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Haha! I don't feel threatened dude, especially from an illiterate. Haha! Loser! It reminds me of the movie "Rocky" His trainer had him chasing a chicken, as though it's good exercise. Chickens are easy to catch, I could do it as a child and so could everyone else I know. I could easily kill a chicken, but I didn't. Dogs can easily be confused if you know how and just because I can kill a chicken doesn't mean I would. I don't have to prove anything to you except ... here you prove your intelligence, which seems to be slightly lower than a dog. Haha! You don't even seem to understand light comparisons. You were obviously a very poor student ... so, why do you think, as a poor student failing your classes, that suddenly you can excel? I wonder. Basic English. I didn't say I "felt" threatened, I said I was threatened by an illiterate loser. Haha! Haha! This elderly mail carrier can outrun the pit bull when it "attacks." Good thing the pit is not in the wild....it must eat it's alpo to live! haha! Dog runs off mail delivery Post office halts service to Racine street after pit bull charges mail carrier By NICOLE SWEENEY nsweeney@journalsentinel.com Posted: April 30, 2004 The dog-bites-mail-carrier story might be one of the oldest around, but for one Racine neighborhood, it means mail delivery has been stopped indefinitely. Pit Bull Graphic/Enrique Rodriguez Mail Delayed for Residents Angry neighbors said Friday that the U.S. Postal Service had refused to deliver their mail since Tuesday because of a pit bull named Midnight that has been terrorizing the mail carrier. The area affected is roughly a four-block stretch of Byrd Ave. just east of Ohio St. "We're all highly upset about it," said Linda Segura, who lives in the 4300 block of Byrd Ave. "If I wanted to pick up my mail at the post office, I would get a P.O. box." Dennis Olsen, who lives in the 4400 block of Byrd, was in his yard a few days ago when he heard the carrier's screams and saw her being charged by Midnight. "If she's not delivering mail around here anymore, I don't blame her one bit," Olsen said. Acting Racine Postmaster Wayne Stone said late Friday he did not know details but the Postal Service stopped deliveries because of the dog and contacted police. The Postal Service's usual procedure in such cases is to discontinue deliveries in the area until the dog owner makes a commitment to confine the animal during delivery hours, he said. http://www.jsonline.com/news/racine/apr04/226274.asp

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/6/2004
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It depends on the pit and the AB. If the AB gets hold of the pit before the pit does the pit is done. If the AB allows the Pit to fight than the AB is done. I no this because of my earlier post. My AB has been in 2 unintentional fights with Pits one pit died and the other would have beat my AB if I and the other handler weren't there. Your right pits can fight better but the AB has it in other area's like PROTECTION and PULLS. A 90 pound pit isn't rare anymore, I think you meant "Pits are getting bigger". If the dogs are about the same size the Pit will probably win. If the AB is 30-50 lbs. heavier than you'll need a new dog. If matched in size the pit just has more endurance than almost any other dog.

Answer by Dog Man
Submitted on 6/6/2004
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bigdaddy, I dont have an AB or a Pit. And like I said before, dog fighting is horrible and cruel. But I have seen both. I have seen large ABs and large Pits. And the ABs are just bigger and stronger period. I once even saw a large AB and a large Pit get into a fight at a dog park. The AB totally dominated! Good thing the owners seperated the dogs. Think what you like, you are gonna defend your Pit because everyone thinks THEIR dog is the toughest in the world. Pit Bulls are used more for fighting because they are smaller and it's easier to handle them in the pit. They are also MUCH more common and MUCH less expensive to purchase than the ABs. Just go to any local animal shelter, and you can get a Pit.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/6/2004
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No I only said that all of them said pretty much the same thing "The cats might do something like that or the Hyena's and Bears but not K9's." I referred to them as K9s. NOTICE THAT HE IS NOT ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS THAT CHALLENGE ANYTHING THAT FIREDRAGGINGS SAYS. Go back through all of this and you will find that there is NO Scientific evidence that Firedraggings has put forth. Attached hereto is nothing but the conflicting constant plagiarism's that he has copied off of some opinionated website. The persons that wrote and edited these page's placed nothing but OPINION. You sir have produced nothing but spin. When asked any questions about the statements, lies or challenges that you posed to us, answered nothing. You began to learn that we were right so you had to resort to a poor try of debatable spin and childish name calling. So why is it that you won't answer any questions? You said that the pit could never earn schH3 title. I proved that they do in fact hold these titles and many others. You called the Pit a little stupid dog. When I proved that your idiotic statement was one of an mentally indigent child like individual. You avoided the ?'s like the plague. You've talked a tremendous amount and have said NOTHING. You've insulted everyone and have proved NOTHING. You claim to know and have nothing in the way of real EXPERIENCE. When educated by those who are clearly experienced with these animals, you make another totally ignorant statement, revealing you true intellect. When someone tried to help you understand something you just call them a childish name and reject the council of the ones who know. Which shows that you do NOT even notice wisdom much less posses it. Firedraggon you need help this behavior is commonly know bi-polar narcissism. You really do need help. And get you BUM ass out of your mamma's house your old enough now.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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Firedragqueen Well I thought that you had made some people mad with your bull. And I was right. Like I said before, your going to need help. Only you can make this happen. You can't just keep going like this in your life it will all fall apart one day. Lying like you do will just make people mad at you and soon you will forget what the truth really is. There are already examples of this even in this page and the lies that you have told here. We all know that these are lies and you know it, but you just keep doing it. Now you are probably going to lash out at every one for finding you out, this is a perfectly normal response for someone with your kinds problems. Do yourself a favor, move from your Mommy'shome and get some help. These people will help you understand how you are wrong about the wolf. He is just the one that wasn't smart enough to come in out of the weather and have all of his needs taken care of by man. But then again we don't really know what happened 8000 years ago. It is perfectly acceptable that a Pit Bull or an American Bull chased him away and he probably just wasn't smart enough and/or strong enough to get into the house. But the Doctors will help you straighten all of this all out and show you the error of your ways.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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Yes, I am from the wet lands. I also eat fresh chickens, although obviously you have something else in mind when you think of chickens.... Also, you can't break a wolf loose like you can a dog. I have easily broken pits apart with my bare hands ... no need for a stick if done right, but the wolf doesn't have the gap in the premolars. You can't get the fingers in to lift with a wolf. How Do I Tell An American Staff From A Pit Bull From A Staffie Bull? http://www.workingpitbull.com/amstaffpit.htm "When dog shows became popular, dogs needed to be separate into smaller subsets simialr in appearance, hence types of dogs were divided into "breeds". Pit bull fanciers fought to keep their dogs away from the show ring, and sucseeded for several decades. " "Then, like now, breeder of true working dogs knew that the show ring spelled ruination for their dogs. It wasn't until the 1930's that a small number of breeders made an attempt to bring the pit bull into the show dog world. Using several dogs (including Colby's Primo) as the "standard of perfection", a physical standard was drawn up for the pit bull. The name "pit bull" was a problem for these show dog folks - they felt it would scare people off. They tried several names, including Yankee Terrier (a silly name indeed for a bulldog from the UK!) and finally settled on "Staffordshire Terrier". (Why they decided he was a "terrier" is anyone's guess!) At that time the main registry for the pit bull was the United Kennel Club, which registered dogs, maintained rules and referees for dog fighting and crowned dogs "Fighting Champions". When AKC stud books were opened in 1936, UKC dogs were registered by the AKC and thus "became" Staffordshire Terriers. To add to the confusion, the name "Staffordshire Terrier" was changed to "American Staffordshire Terrier" in the 1970's when the AKC decided that the pit bulls in England had enough variation in type to warrant being called a different "breed". The UK dogs were now named Staffordshire Bull Terriers. All three breeds, the pit bull, the Am Staff and the Staffie Bull are hence the same "type" of dog, simply changed sufficiently through time, distance and use, for show folks to consider them three different breeds. Interestingly enough, some Am Staff and Staffie Bull breeders will try and claim their breeds are unrelated to the pit bull in a vain attempt to avoid discriminative laws leveled at all bulldog types. Nothing could be more ludicrous. To this day, one will find Staffie Bulls which cannot be distinguished from pit bulls, American Staffs which can not be distinguished from pit bulls, and visa versa. Click here for more info on the relationship between UKC showbred pit bulls and AKC American Staffordshires. So, to recap, Staffordshire Bull Terriers are small, compact dogs weighing about 35 pounds. Staffies are awesome dogs. I brought one home from England a few years ago for a buddy, and can honestly say that Wyllum is one of my all-time favorite dogs. They are GREAT family pets. The American Staffordshire terrier is the AKC name for the pit bull, and they are bred primarily for show purposes, so are blocky and attractive. Some of the very best sport dogs have been Am Staffs. The only warning I would give is that I have seen more people-mean Am Staffs than I have pit bulls, and I have seen more hip dysplasia in Staffs. The type of dog you pick as your companion will depend entirely upon what you find important and attractive in a dog. Don't let anyone tell you that YOUR opinion is wrong!" IF YOU READ THE FIGHTING NEWSPAPERS, JUST ABOUT ALL PITS WERE UNDER 45 POUNDS THAT FOUGHT. THEY ARE A SMALL DOG.

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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Actually, you will find that there has been a kind of scandal with the National Canine Temperament Testing Association. The name sounds bogus, doesn't it? What would they do? Test dogs to see ... what? In fact, there is no such association. If you go to the library and ask the reference librarian to give you a copy of the book that has a list of all National Associations, they can let you look. There is so much propaganda out there and so much fabricated information. Do a search. You won't find this list "published" anywhere, and you won't find anyone else using the list .. except when they make the mistake of using it from the falsified statements. There is a book called "Always Faithful" about military dogs of WWII. Many were buried in Marine cemetaries!!! To my knowledge NONE WERE PITS, considered a silly dog at that time! Thousands were tried for this mission and of course, German S were primary. Why would you say Pits? Pits aren't used today? Why would they use them then? They are not large enough for attack dogs .. they can't go for the throat and they can't bite as hard. Marine Dogs of World War II Converted for the Web from "Always Faithful: A Memoir of the Marine Dogs of WWII" by William W. Putney Less than twenty-four hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese invaded Guam, an American possession. The small Pacific island, virtually defenseless, held out for only four days. For the next two and a half years, the brave people of Guam endured a horrible occupation: they were starved, beaten, and herded into concentration camps. Many of Guam's people were summarily shot for crimes they did not commit. Some were beheaded. No other American civilians suffered so much under so brutal a conqueror. On July 21, 1944, the Americans struck back. The battle for Guam lasted only a few weeks, until August 10, 1944, when the island was declared secured. In those weeks, American Marine, Army, and Navy casualties exceeded 7,000. An estimated 18,500 Japanese were killed, and another 8,000 Japanese remained hidden in the jungle refusing to surrender. Among our dead were 25 dogs, specially trained by the U.S. Marines to search out the enemy hiding in the bush, detect mines and booby traps, alert troops in foxholes at night to approaching Japanese, and to carry messages, ammunition and medical supplies. They were buried in a small section of the Marine Cemetery, in a rice paddy on the landing beach at Asan that became known as the War Dog Cemetery. I was the commanding officer of the 3rd War Dog Platoon during the battle for Guam. Lieutenant William T. Taylor and I led 110 men and 72 dogs through training, first at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina; then at Camp Pendleton, California; later on Guadalcanal and then into battle on Guam. Most of the young Marines were assigned to the war dog program only by a twist of fate. Some had never owned a dog in their lives, and some were even afraid of them. But trained as dog handlers, they were expected to scout far forward of our lines, in treacherous jungle terrain, searching for Japanese soldiers hidden in caves or impenetrable thickets. Under these circumstances, the rifles we carried were often useless; a handler's most reliable weapons were his dog's highly developed senses of smell and hearing, which could alert him far in advance of an enemy ambush or attack, or the presence of a deadly mine, so he could warn in turn the Marines who followed behind at a safer distance. It was one of the most dangerous jobs in World War II, and more dogs were employed by the 2nd and 3rd Platoons on Guam than in all of the other battles in the Pacific. During the course of the war, 15 of the handlers in the 2nd and 3rd Platoons were killed: 3 at Guam, 4 on Saipan and 8 on Iwo Jima. These men were among the bravest and best-trained Marines of World War II, and were awarded the medals to prove it. During the course of some of the war's most vicious battles -- Guam, Saipan, Iwo Jima and Okinawa -- they were awarded five Silver Stars and seven Bronze Stars for heroism in action, and more than forty Purple Hearts for wounds received in battle. In these battles, as in their training, the men learned to depend on their dogs and to trust their dogs' instincts with their lives. Yet when I returned home from overseas, I found that rather than spend the time and expense to detrain the dogs, our military had begun to destroy them. Our dogs, primarily Doberman Pinschers and German Shepherds, had been recruited from the civilian population with the promise that they be returned, intact, when the war ended. Now, however, higher-ups argued that these dogs suffered from the "junkyard dog" syndrome: they were killers. Higher-ups were wrong. I lobbied for the right to detrain these dogs and won. Our program of deindoctrination was overwhelmingly successful: out of the 549 dogs that returned from the war, only 4 could not be detrained and returned to civilian life. Household pets once, the dogs became household pets again. In many cases, in fact, because the original, civilian owners were unable or unwilling to take the dogs back, the dogs went home with the handlers that they had served so well during the war. http://www.worldwar2history.info/Marines/dogs.html Book Review: Always Faithful: A Memoir of the Marine Dogs of WWII by: Ranny Green Always Faithful details the incredible behavioral transformation of man and dog in the newly organized Marine platoons. "It was a story that needed to be told," said Dr. William W. Putney, author of the riveting Always Faithful: A Memoir of the Marine Dogs of WWII (The Free Press, $25), during a telephone interview. "If I did not write it, it was going to die." Be thankful he did. For almost half a century, the colorful Putney, a retired Marine Corps captain/veterinarian, has been attempting to get the work published. "I had agents who swore they'd get it into the right hands," he said. "But no one did." In the '50s, Americans had tired of war stories, he said. Nevertheless, Putney, a small-animal veterinarian, was organizing and detailing his WWII exploits as the commanding officer of the 3rd War Dog Platoon, from training in the United States to grueling combat on Guam, then returning home to deprogram the same animals. The detail in this deeply affecting volume is written like it happened yesterday. And keep in mind, Putney was not allowed to maintain a diary of any type during the war. All of the detail is from an assemblage of post-conflict notes, interviews with others in his unit and the 2nd War Dog Platoon. "These dogs were the unsung heroes of the war," said Putney, describing the German shepherds, Doberman pinschers and single Labrador retriever. "There is no way of estimating how many lives they saved, but it was in the thousands." The canines were trained for scout, sentry, messenger and mine-detection duties. Of 550 patrols with dogs on Guam, none was ambushed. Because of their worth, a war-dog platoon was assigned to every Marine division fighting in the island campaign. Putney's vivid characterizations 50-plus years later are masterful. He places you right in the midst of a jungle battle on Guam with a four-legged partner or alongside an untrained dog at Camp Lejeune, N.C., where the initial training was conducted. Always Faithful details the incredible behavioral transformation of man and dog in the newly organized Marine platoons. Everyone was on a new turf here. The dogs were former house pets or farm animals donated by their owners; the young Marines, some of whom had never owned a dog, were assigned to the program only by a twist of fate; and the trainers were new to the regimen, too. "There wasn't a precedent here," said Putney, an Auburn University veterinary school graduate who intended to become a large-animal practitioner. "I kinda got sidetracked by the dogs and the war," he laughed. "But it was an experience I wouldn't trade for anything." Throughout this important documentary, Putney's naturalness remains a beguiling virtue. The first two-thirds of the crisp volume basically sets the table for the final third: the battles of Guam, postwar deprogramming of the animals and detailed statistics of the overall program, which was terminated following the war. Always Faithful is accented with swirling emotions, personal tangles, plenty of heartbreak and incredible courage and guile. Dog doubters within the Marine Corps turned to big boosters as the incredible animals and their dedicated partners matured quickly, literally under the gun. "This was a program on fast-forward from the start," said Putney. Any frilly hearts and flowers you bring to the easy chair when sitting down with Always Faithful had best be left at the door. This isn't a love story. Your emotional Geiger counter might be in for a good workout. The book traverses challenging emotional terrain as well as the physical. Grown men cry and fall into deep despair when their "partner" is injured or killed. Conversely, dogs sulk and become almost unapproachable when their partner is fatally injured. Always Faithful is seamless. It crystallizes the sober reality of war in an energetic, passionate and definitive fashion. "I told it exactly as it happened," said Putney, who says the final work represents about half of the manuscript he originally turned in. "The editors did a great job," he emphasized, "and didn't leave anything important out." Not a day goes by when Putney doesn't think of the war dogs. "This book is really for them," he says. "It's their story." Here are a few sobering statistics: Dogs on duty in Pacific: 327; dogs killed in action in Pacific: 29; dogs missing in action in Pacific: 5; dogs died at sea (transporting to or from the war zone) 5; dogs returned to former owners following war: 173; dogs returned to new owners or found a new home: 29. Of 1,047 dogs that served in the Marine Corps during WWII, 44 percent were in the Pacific. Of the 1,047 that underwent training, 295 were rejected (a result of improper recruiting). While Always Faithful will stand as the signature to these brave animals' contributions to the U.S. war effort, Putney played a key role, too, in placing a War Dog Cemetery on the Orote Point U.S. Naval Base on Guam July 20, 1994, at the 50th anniversary celebration of Guam's liberation. In 1989, he had revisited Guam to find the Marine War Dog Cemetery that had been established in 1944 in total disrepair. "It was moved to the jungle in central Guam," Putney said, "and totally overgrown. In other words, those four-legged heroes were all but forgotten. It broke my heart. I left there determined to move it to a site where our government would maintain it." Former war-dog unit members have held annual reunions for years. "We're down to only about 12 to 15 guys now," said Putney, 81, during the phone interview. "It used to be quite an event, but now it's pretty quiet." But this year's gathering in Nashville promises to be particularly uplifting. "I'll sign everyone's book," he promised, "and we'll critique it, I'm sure." Rest assured, Always Faithful puts a defining exclamation mark on their story. http://www.petplace.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=3014 * * *

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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The British used THESE dogs, none of which were PIT BULLS!!! The pit bull was used in posters because it is one of the very few AMERICAN breeds (American Pit Bull Terrier), and also because of a myth. The pit bull was like Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam was a patriot, but he was just a salesman. That's it. I like dogs, but I know their purpose. I don't allow children around hunting dogs..yea, many are friendly, but that makes them useless ... socialization is not good for a hunting dog. I like pit bulls, but they don't seem to serve a purpose except as a pet. They should not be around children either. No sane person will take a decent dog that is worth several thousand dollars and hunt with it. The dog and man work as partners. The dog follows the prey and learns to keep its distance ... but dogs are as children in many ways. They won't keep their distance for long or possible the animal loses some of his fear .... dogs are associated with man and therefore many animals fear them. At one point, the wild animal will attack the dog and kill it. Man must make up for the lack of claws, fangs, horns, size, antlers, speed, and/or the wild strength possessed by many members of the animal kingdom whom we eat or take for trophy. I was once injured by a large deer that kicked my face. It could have killed a dog with that kick, but I have a thick neck. Ejusdem generis and good knife. (Some states forbid carrying even a revolver during bow hunting season, and a bow is difficult at close distances with wild animals). The dog must be protected. Two dogs are generally necessary and this is a lot of money to dangle in the woods. Some hunters have two pair or more for their bad limit. Hunting, as you learned in Boy Scouts, is essential to prevent starvation among much of wildlife. BRITISH WAR DOGS IN THE GREAT WAR -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contributed by Graham Evans in 'Trenches on the Web' "The WDTS at Shoeburyness was moved to Matley Ridge, Lyndhurst in 1918 until May 1919 when it was finally moved to Bulford on Salisbury Plains. Breeds of Dogs Used Border Collies Airedales Lurchers English Sheepdogs (must have been fun grooming them after a day in the trenches) Retrievers Summer Dogs. A term that includes the famous Heinz Terrier, i.e. 57 Varieties.; also called Summer Dogs because they are "Summer This" and "Summer That", in other words, mongrels." http://freespace.virgin.net/sh.k/wardogs.html

Answer by TEXAS
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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well now what proof can pete-dragon give of any wolf,whipping a PIT BULL ONE ON ONE?NONE AFTER ALL HIS TROUBLE NONE.he seemed to put great store in wolves in packs killing a dog.he did not prove one wolf could kill a large flock guard.even though he liked to pretend it happened.i found only pets and guard dog killed by packs,on the wolf sites.he acted like no one would have ever used a wolf in money PIT FIGHTS.THAT TOO IS FLASE.they have been in the pits.in spite of what it seems a wolf could do their intelligence works the other way.not making them more aggressive one on one, but less in a survival situation.they are a wild animal, that uses numbers to avoid injury.dogs are far more aggressive. they have been bred that way and the post by lockwood states that plainly.dogfighters all tell me the wolf was used in the pit.you can read ones detailed posts.GO TO -CAN A PIT BULL KILL A WOLVERINE OF THE SAME WEIGHT. .GO BACK TO BIG D'S POSTS HERE IS THE TRUTH ABOUT PIT FIGHTING.FROM A MAN WHO KNOWS.READ IT AND YOU WILL TOO.OF COURSE FIREDRAGON WILL KNOW DIFFERENT,BUT HEY NOW HES THE GUY THAT HAS PRYED CLAMPED DOWN PIT BULLS MOUTHS OPEN WITH HIS BARE HANDS!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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still copy/paste from others document a fireplaigen...... Still no answers, you should be a politician, although nobody would vote for you, I believe that you have to be a highschool grad. Oh and the mental things, you'll need to get those thing taken care of before you run for "Flatlander" city council. After all of this. Remember a couple of posts ago when I said I have the feeling that you had never even seen a wolf, Moose, Bear, Elk, and Coyote. I thought that you were a city dwelling river rat! People are starting to catch on to what you are doing. You find a web page that could be written by anyone, Right click, Copy, come back to this page, Left click, and Paste, then delete everything that is in favor of the Pit. Ah am I Telling everyone your secrets. Were not as stupid as you've stated that we all are. One of the only reasons that the American Bull, Staff, and/or Pit bull were not chosen for the military was climate. They were not able to stand the colder climates and snow. They also wanted just one breed of dog that that they could use. Recently they have started to go back to using the BULL breeds again because of the cost and lack of good GSD's and Malinois. For detection dogs the Labrador still hold the title for ease of training. SO HERE IS WHAT THEY (HE) LEAVE OUT I was under the impression that PETA was dedicated to helping animals. That was until I found out that you support a mass-euthanasia policy for the most abused, persecuted and misunderstood breed of dog - the American Pit Bull Terrier. For generations, the Pit Bull has been beloved for its loyalty, strength, versatility, bravery, and intelligence. Contrary to beliefs held by those unfamiliar with the breed, the American Pit Bull Terrier is one of the most stable, people-friendly dogs in existence. I have been working with Pit Bulls for years and currently volunteer for a Pit Bull rescue group. Over the past year, our local rescue group has placed over 100 Pit Bulls into loving homes with absolutely no problems whatsoever. We get them straight from the city animal shelter, and most of the time we do not know the dog's history. It is evident that most of them have been abused and neglected. We take these dogs right from the pound to the veterinarian where they get a bath and shots and a full examination. They are obviously scared, but none have ever tried to bite us. Once, three of us lifted a huge 90 pound male Pit Bull into the bath. He was afraid of the water coming out of the hose, but he never once growled or even showed his teeth. He was shaking, but he never showed any signs of aggression. You would think that if a Pit Bull was going to attack, that it would happen when they were frightened. Yet time and time again we save dogs, put them through the same routine at the veterinarian, and none have ever even tried to bite us. Actually, several of our rescued Pit Bulls have been adopted by veterinarians. Did you know that the National Canine Temperament Testing Association tested 122 breeds, and Pit Bulls placed the 4th highest with a 95% passing rate? I hope you can imagine the shock and disbelief I felt when I read your "Some Dogs are Weapons - Ban Them" article. I do not understand why you believe that banning Pit Bulls would be a good thing. Gang member types, who own these dogs for the wrong reasons, are the ones who need to be dealt with. They need to be charged with animal cruelty and put in jail. Please do not support the punishment of Pit Bulls for the sins of some of the unscrupulous people who own them. There are many kind and responsible people who have Pit Bulls as members of their family. These dogs do not pose a threat to anyone. We should not be denied our loving Pit Bull companions because some people chose to make their dogs aggressive. Also, if Pit Bulls are banned they will still be in the hands of the criminal because they have no respect for the law. Criminals will still fight Pit Bulls and breed Pit Bulls. The only people a pit bull ban will hurt, will be the law-abiding good citizens who can provide loving homes for them. Pit Bull rescue groups would not be able to operate if they were banned. We would not be able to rescue Pit Bulls from the shelter and adopt them out. Backyard breeders would be the only ones creating Pit Bulls and rescue would not have the ability to continue its good work. STUBBY, PitBull Terrier mix, WWI. The most decorated war dog in U.S. history. When Pit Bulls enjoyed being the nation's most popular dog during the W.W.I era, there were no problems with vicious Pit Bull attacks. Pit Bulls were not banned anywhere. America's first war dog was a Pit Bull named Stubby who earned several medals and the rank of sergeant for his service in W.W.I. He received a hero's welcome and was even honored at the White House. He inspired the U.S. Military K-9 Corps. He also went on to become Georgetown University's mascot. Did you know that the Little Rascals' Petey was an American Pit Bull Terrier? Would the parents of the Little Rascals let their children be in such close contact with a Pit Bull day after day if they feared that Petey could suddenly attack them without warning? Of course not. Petey was by far one of the most well trained and intelligent dogs. I urge you to rent some of the Little Rascals' episodes that feature Petey. Lassie, the Collie, bit her trainer several times. Petey never did such a thing. In fact, the only dog that has ever bitten me happened to be my sister-in-law's 9-year-old Collie. Now I thought "Lassie" was supposed to be a great family dog. Even though I was bitten by a Collie, I certainly would not advocate the breed being banned. What are your thoughts on Rottweilers, Dobermans, German Shepherds? These are also big powerful dogs who can do a lot of damage if they attack. Many of these dogs are also abused and trained to be people-aggressive. Should we ban them as well? Or what about wolves? What about sharks and poisonous snakes? Should we ban them too, and kill all the ones we come in contact with because they have the potential to cause harm? Cars, knives and cigarettes are not banned, yet they cause many deaths. How can you possibly support an animal shelter euthanizing Pit Bull puppies and completely docile and adoptable Pit Bulls? I thought PETA stood for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. It is not fair to exclude Pit Bulls. Fortunately, there are actually a lot of animal shelters who do not believe in such a discriminatory practice and can see past this "witch hunt" mentality. Perhaps you believe that banning Pit Bulls would protect them from being adopted by the wrong type of person? What really prevents this from happening is spaying and neutering. Pit Bull abusers not only want to fight their dogs but breed them as well. They quickly lose interest in adopting an altered dog. The Town Lake Animal Center in Austin, Texas is just one facility that frequently adopts out Pit Bulls. In fact, the State of Texas does not allow breed-specific legislation. We have dangerous dog laws which deal with individual dogs, instead of entire breeds. Did you know that animal control officers often adopt Pit Bulls? Some cities that do not have Pit Bull bans include: San Francisco, CA; Las Vegas, NV; Stamford, CT; St. Paul, MN; Las Cruces, NM; Seattle, WA and Toronto, Canada to name a few. Also, Pit Bull bans in Sweden have been rescinded. Pit Bull rescue groups have very high standards and extremely strict adoption qualifications. The rescue group I volunteer for, The Chako Rescue Association for the American Pit Bull Terrier, has an extensive adoption application, we run background checks, check veterinary references, require the dogs be indoor dogs (to prevent them from being stolen), and we also do surprise home inspections. Our adoption contract also entitles us to confiscate the dog and charge a fine of $2,000 if there is evidence of dog fighting. You see, there are ways to ensure that Pit Bulls find their way to loving homes and are protected and cared for. Banning the breed will accomplish nothing but more suffering for the American Pit Bull Terrier. Hellen Keller and her dog. Click on image for larger picture Did you know that Helen Keller even had a Pit Bull as her canine companion? Pit Bulls are widely used as therapy dogs, even today. Because of their high pain threshold and stable temperament, they do not bite or snap when accidentally bumped by a wheelchair or walker. RCA, Alaska first certified hearing dog Alaska's first hearing dog was a Pit Bull named RCA. The Chako Rescue Association for the American Pit Bull Terrier has a therapy dog program that exclusively uses Pit Bulls. Pit Bulls also excel at search-and-rescue. This breed is one of the most loving and loyal breeds that exist today. In your article you state, "The pit bull's ancestor, the Staffordshire terrier, is a human concoction, bred in my native England, I'm ashamed to say, as a weapon. These dogs were designed specifically to fight other animals and kill them, for human sport". This is not entirely correct information. The American Pit Bull Terrier is a descendent of the original English bull-baiting Bulldog and has historically been bred with working/performance goals in mind, including, unfortunately, fighting. Original Bulldogs were used to fight bulls and bears, and these blood sports were extremely popular and a part of daily life in England around 1800. These people-friendly bulldogs were so loved, that in the town of Wednesbury, in Staffordshire County, the church bells rang in celebration of the birth of a famous fighting dog's pups. In fact, if a female Bulldog died during the whelping of the pups, lactating women of Staffordshire would raise the puppies by suckling them at their own breasts! And you say these dogs are weapons that are dangerous to human beings? England made blood sports illegal in 1835, and that is when dogfighting became popular. Dogfighting pits required hardly any space, and it was easy to hold the contests in secret. American Pit Bull Terriers were bred to be submissive to man, and human aggression was actually bred out of the breed. This is because the people who fought them, and their family members, would break up the dogfights and tend wounds. They could not tolerate a dog that was aggressive toward people, or their families would be in danger. Any dog that showed aggression toward a human being was immediately taken out and killed. Currently, the United Kennel Club and the American Dog Breeder's Association recognize and register the American Pit Bull Terrier as a breed. In fact, the UKC was founded in 1898, and the Pit Bull was its first recognized breed. The AKC recognizes the American Staffordshire Terrier. The American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier are two closely related breeds, with the American Staffordshire Terrier being, in theory, a non-game-bred off-shoot of the APBT. Conformationally, the two breeds are very similar, and many dogs are dual registered. Pit Bulls tend to be more dog-aggressive, but they are extremely people friendly. Then again it depends on the individual dog. I have seen Pit Bulls get along perfectly with all kinds of dogs and even cats. A good friend of mine has a Pit Bull who loves other dogs snuggles with the cat everyday. You also mention that your office has a file drawer full of "Pit Bull" attacks. Did you know that a lot of times a reporter will say that a dog attack was committed by a Pit Bull just to get a story? Also, animal control officers frequently respond to reports of "Pit Bull" attacks, yet when they arrive on the scene, they discover that the dog is nothing close to a Pit Bull. When a true American Pit Bull Terrier, does a good deed, they rarely get recognition. The Ken-L-Ration Dog Hero of 1993 was a Pit Bull named Weela. She saved 30 people, 29 dogs, 13 horses and a cat during a flood in Southern California. When Reader's Digest published the story, they absolutely REFUSED to print that Weela was a Pit Bull. This same heroic dog saved her owner's son from a rattlesnake. Popsicle, drug sniffing dog There are other Pit Bull heroes. Recently, a pregnant Pit Bull named Blueberry saved her family from armed robbers who invaded their home. Blueberry got shot, but she scared off the attackers and luckily she and her pups survived. Another Pit Bull in Austin, Texas jumped up and took a bullet in the chest to protect his guardian. This dog also survived. Another Pit Bull named Bogart saved a four-year-old boy from drowning in a swimming pool. In Chicago recently, another Pit Bull saved a small child from being attacked by another dog of a different breed. Other Pit Bulls are currently being used to detect narcotics for the federal government. One of them was found as a puppy in a freezer during a drug raid. One of the officers happened to find him, and he was still alive. He is now one of his best canine officers. This story was covered by People Magazine. If any of these wonderful dogs were unfortunate enough to find themselves at an animal shelter with an anti-Pit Bull policy, they would be euthanized, purely based on their breed. I still do not understand how you could support a euthanization policy for all Pit Bulls. It is completely incomprehensible to me especially because you are the president of an animal rights organization. I am very sad and disappointed to see you advocating the extinction of a breed of dog. Pit Bulls are the most misunderstood and persecuted of all breeds. Not only are they hurt by abusive owners and breed bans, but the media often portrays Pit Bulls as monsters. Even MTV plays a rap video that glamorizes Pit Bull fighting. You said "Pit bulls are perhaps the most abused dogs on the planet". I urge you to please do something positive to help them and stop adding salt to the wounds.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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you know firedraggingonandon People like you should be used for medical experiments. The kind where you a dissected to figure out what the hell is wrong when people just go bed like that. I still am having a hard time believing that you are a flatlander. You should be talking about gators or swamps or something that you really know about. Maybe rats, or armadillos, because you sure don't know anything about wolves, Coyotes, dogs, Moose, Elk and the like. Have you ever even been to our mountains? I suppose if you have it was on paved roads and camping parks. Anyway the only thing that you apparently "know"" is what you have read or that your mommy has read to you. I would guess that she doesn't read about wolves and killer dogs a bedtime. Anyway there is so much TRUE EVIDENCE out there to show that the ABD and Pit are not only intelligent, but are some of the most intelligent in the K9 world including Wolves and Coyotes. Now I know they are not K9s to you but they are to the rest of the world. Anyway the only thing that anyone has proved that the wolf can do is eat, crap, howl and make baby wolves. If the wolf was so smart it would evolve itself into a loving dog and get out of the forest, thats what we call them here "forest" not Da woods like flatlanders. This way he could come lay on my couch and get treats for no reason at all. He would get to eat Science Diet or Eukanuba and live a long lazy life where I even pick up his crap, well I send my son out to do it. There you have it Wolves are just as stupid as Draggons. Have a great day :-}

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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He has written in several pit bull journals and the end was editorial content. Handguns is a magazine that is read by me as well as people that are ...idiots, the pit crowd. They believe that pit bulls saved the war in WWI and WWII, even though the pits are not used today. There is so much false information going around. Yes, I believe that most here read the posts and their citations...therefore it's good for me and bad for an idiot such as yourself! Haha! Loser! Joe, the guy must have not known what he was doing. There is a gap in the teeth of about three fingers....it's easy to get in there and break them up. I have done it many times. No need for "breaking sticks" I do not want to kill pits, mostly just put the owners in jail and force them to kennel their dogs away from children and others that might be harmed.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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Plus This see firedragqueen, your not the only one who can cut and paste. However I won't change any of the writers words or conveniently leave anything out. Nor will I PRETEND that I've written it. KOOL K-9 Popsicle An abused, dying pup becomes a drug-sniffing superdog From People Weekly Magazine Edition April 26, 1999 The "Animal" chronicle, Page 117 "He's a little ball of fire" says U.S. Customs officer J.J. Trevino of Popsicle (Receiving a significant Seizure medal in March) During an arrest two years ago, Buffalo policeman Ron Clark, Jr. opened an abandoned freezer on a known drug dealer's back porch and found a bulging black garbage bag. "I poked my flashlight at it," he recalls, "and it started moving. My worst fear was that it was a baby." In fact, it was a puppy, a pit bull who would be known as Popsicle and -- in a lovely ironic twist-- would gain fame for sniffing out the kind of bad guy that nearly killed him. One year ago, Popsicle helped the feds seize 3,075 pounds of cocaine from a pineapple-laden truck at the Mexican border-the biggest drug bust ever at the Hidalgo, Texas, port of entry. "It's astounding the obstacles this dog has overcome," says US Customs Service Commissioner Raymond W. Kelley. The Pitbull Puppy was skin and bones when he arrived at the Animal Hospital. When Officer Clark found the wounded, blood-caked animal who had apparently been used in pit bull fights, he was undernourished, hypothermic and near death. "He was in bad shape, but I was drawn to him," says SPCA adoption counselor Shannon Willie, who name the pup Popsicle. Alas, people who visited the shelter looking to adopt a puppy were put off by his breed's reputation. They would take one look at the pit bull and walk away. When Popsicle regained his strength, the shelter contacted US Customs canine-enforcement officer Sally Barr. It was a long shot, but maybe he would qualify for the dog training school in Front Royal, VA. Of 500 dogs Barr has tested in the last three years, only 4 have made the cut. "You want a dog that plays a terrific tug-of-war," says Barr. Popsicle did, and in February 1998 he graduated at the top of his class and became a celebrated alumnus two months later by detecting the record contraband cache under a tractor-trailer. "You have to imagine him," says US Customs canine handler J.J. Trevino ,"on his hind legs, barking, trying to reach up to the bottom of the truck." Back in Buffalo, where the bad guy eventually got off with probation for animal cruelty, Ron Clark remains awed by Popsicle's comeback. "I still don't know why I opened that refrigerator," says Clark. "But it feels like it was meant to be."

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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Oh, give me a break. I have some claim here and I don't think anyone but the brass liked that. Yea, good picture. This was just a symbol because the bull dog is so ugly...and yet NO bull dogs were used by the Marines in WWII. The Corps was also forced to use the .45. What a piece of junk, but the brass is "traditional" and did not adjust with the other services. Marines don't let dogs fight for them! Do you think that anyone really cares about the mascot? That certainly isn't the dog we see at the camps. It's just a symbol from the turn of the century. That's it. An English Bulldog is not a pit, dude. There isn't anything good to be said for the pit from that site. NO PIT BULL HAS MOVED INTO EVEN THE CHAMPIONSHIP TOURNEMENT!! Someone has to be pretty stupid not to get the gag here. The pit does not stand a chance to win and hasn�t. The Tosa average is bigger than the biggest pit and only the runts can fight pits, although pits can fight in higher weights�no one wants to though. When the Europeans arrived, they brought dogs and the Japanese bred the Tosa to be the toughest�not just small and tough.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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Yea, yea, yea .... but part of intelligence is understanding what you read. He might have said, "but this" and he might have implied this ... but what was the reality? The reality was that there were no examples of Tosa losing to pits....Tosas dominate in fighting. There is a niche for small dogs and the pit is popular here ... in areas where they just went for the best dog, the Tosa is 100%. I challenge you to SHOW US ANYWHERE IN JAPAN WHERE A PIT HAS EVER DEFEATED A TOSA!!! Not just pit bull bull...the owners of pit pulls are capable of all kinds of lies. The "military dog" is one and people that have never been in the service sometimes see the "English Bulldog" on hats and other items associated with the Marines ... and somehow think that this is a military dog ... when in fact, it's proven to be just about useless. In fact, even that people mag article didn't seem right to me and I will go to the library and check it out ... however, even if it's true, there are always exceptions to every rule. I think that there are a lot of better dogs to use .... but they take any mutt for their work. Pit bulls are not particularly obedient. They are always owned by low lifes that can't control their dog so they walk down the road with a big chain, the dog straining at everyone. My dogs would do this, but I don't walk down the street with them. I have them in a double fence kennel. I also take the time to actively exercise them, as I also run a lot. Dogs must be forced to exercise or they become unhealthy. The treadmill is very lazy and that's what many pit bull owners use. Be careful about the threats, dude. You think you can hide on the board, but you can't. I know you think you are anonymous but you aren't. Most punks that make threats over the Internet are just punk kids...early teens and just like pit bull owners .... usually cowards. Just try to behave yourself or your headed down a sorry road! Internet Threats Lead To Middle School Student's Arrest Posts Threatened Murder, Rape NBC 6 News Team POSTED: 2:40 pm EDT May 19, 2004 UPDATED: 8:37 am EDT May 21, 2004 MIAMI BEACH, Fla. -- A 14-year-old student has been charged with four felony and four misdemeanor charges for allegedly posting threats to other students on a Web site's message board. Miami Beach and Miami-Dade County School Board police arrested the student, Philip Mian, of North Bay Village, after they were alerted to two posts on ezboard.com. The first post, by someone calling themselves "Stewie AK47", says the writer is a student named "Stuart" at Nautilus Middle School in Miami Beach, and threatened to "bring a gun to school and kill every1." The post said the writer would bring "my dad's 45 caliber and shoot the first person I see," and says, "I'm serious. ... I will rule the school and get away with it." The writer claims to have been picked on by other students, adding, "I just want to b(e) cool and b(e) gangsta but noo (sic) ... you m*** have to f* it up for me." The second post identifies several students by first name, and says, "I will b(e) the boy wearing all black ..." and says after killing two students and raping a third, "I will shoot myself." http://www.nbc6.net/education/3323643/detail.html E-mail Threats Are No Longer a Laughing Matter in Virginia: Related Story -- E-jail for E-Threats Reprinted from Networker, the technology newsmagazine of the University of Southern California, Summer 1998, Volume 8, Number 5. A former UC Irvine student landed a dubious spot in the record books in May as the first man to do time for making death threats via e-mail. A federal judge sentenced Richard Machado to a year in prison for posting Internet threats to 59 university students, most of whom were Asian. Machado threatened "to find and kill every one of you personally." The e-mail, sent in 1996 from a campus computer, bore the signature "Asian Hater." U.S. District Judge Alicemarie Stotler sentenced Machado, who had been in jail since February 1997, to time already served. The judge did not order Machado to pay a $100,000 fine, nor did she grant the prosecution's request to bar him from the Internet. Machado, whom UCI officials expelled for poor academic performance, testified he had sent the messages out of boredom and to provoke a response. He denied any intention to follow up on the threats. http://www.itc.virginia.edu/virginia.edu/fall98/policy/ejail.html Teen sentenced to jail for sending threat to student The Associated Press DENVER (AP) -- A Florida teen was sentenced to four months in prison Friday for sending an Internet threat to a Columbine High School student, saying he would finish what two student gunmen started last spring. U.S. Attorney Tom Strickland said the sentencing of Michael Ian Campbell, 18, delivered a message that Internet threats will not be tolerated. Campbell, of Cape Coral, Fla., collapsed when the sentence was read but recovered a short time later. http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/042900/new_29.html Re: I HOPE YOU REALIZE that "threats" on the Internet are a VERY SERIOUS FEDERAL offense -in fact a flony!!! Would not take much for Feds to find you via your ISP...bettec cool it or you could face 5-10 in a federal lockup.. [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ VMag WWW Bulletin Board ] [ FAQ ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by John on February 08, 03 at 15:30:19: In Reply to: Shut yer hole I'll post whatever I want you jagoff sport futilitarian posted by Len on February 05, 03 at 20:06:41: Hey Len -- stupid posts or rridicile posts are not illegal --just DUMB!! In fact even lying with posts is not illegal -just childish. BUT--step "over the bounds" and start making "internet threats" (such as "I will break you in half.." that you posted) and you are in VERY DANGEROUS TERRITORY. You can be turned in to the Feds and can be VERY SEVERELY prosecuted!! It's a serious FELONY...! Don't belive me? Go ask a knowledgeable friend who knows a bit about law... If you set this kind of pattern--you could be in deep deep problems ..better think twice.. ": Hey butthole how do you think I feel when I have to get out on the freeway and have to deal with your cheesy brady bunch station wagon with barndoor aerodynamics, putting along in the fast lane, your need for half a kilometer of braking distance, your sloppy ass ride slowing everyone down, people only pass you when they see that there is actually nobody in front of you, your fat ass not letting cars behind you see that you are just a one vehicle traffic jam. You should be ashamed of yourself for choosing a landbarge for a daily ride when a normal car works for everyone else. And don't give me any crap about how you actually use your four wheel drive that you can't get to work because you don't need it on the freeway or at the mall. If this were true, people would have sense to buy a normal car for DAILY use, and buy a SFV for weekend trips to the duck pond, buy noooooooooooo you have to try to keep up with the Joneses and get a Vaginator, Unexpeditious, Lane Rover or some other land barge which you will be financially upside down in thanks to the kindness of the weasel who sold it to you and his dad and rich uncle who made the financing and favorable tax climate possible. So shut yer hole and go to Starbucks to cry to your friends about how you got roasted on the sport furility boards (owned by "Len"), but just stay out of the fast lane on your way there or I will break you in half."

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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It's odd, but the article about the pit "Popsicle" seemed fishy to me. So I went to the People homepage and searched their directory. http://magazine-directory.com/People.htm Under Popsicle, they had this: June 08, 2004 Your query for "Popsicle " matched 0 documents. Try Again Under "pit bull" they had this: Your query for "" pit bull" " matched 1 documents. Newsresults 1-1 of 1 Princess Anne Dogged by Royal Crime Queen Elizabeth's only daughter pleads guilty to letting her pit bull injure two children, making her the first royal with a criminal record. (11/21/2002) IT IS INTERESTING. THE PRINCESS HAD TWO ANIMALS THAT WERE TREATED LIKE ROYALTY AND CAME FROM TRACED ANCESTRY ... NO VIOLENCE. YET THESE PITS WENT OFF. There is so much false information on the Internet. Pits are such misbehaved animals, I just don't believe the "good press" because I have experience that is very different. You can tell from the losers that barely speak English and make threats here ... what pit bull owners are like! Haha! It's a funny world and pit bull owners live in a funnier one!

Answer by TEXAS
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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well what did fireDRAG leave out that has people seeing how he works? the part about tosas in taiwan being absent because of PIT BULLS KILLING THEM OFF. THE PART ABOUT PIT BULLS WINNING IN THE U.S. OVER TOSAS ALMOST ALWAYS. THE PART ABOUT HOW A GAME BRED TESTED PIT SHOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD ITS OWN AGAINST ANY TOSA. THE PART ABOUT THE TOUGHEST DOG IN THE WORLD BEING A 60-70LBS PIT OR A 130LBS TOSA. THAT WAS QUITE A BIT TO TAKE OUT OF THE ARTICLE.WAY WOULD YOU BOTHER TO POST SOMETHING YOU WOULD HAVE TO EDIT?YOU REALLY DO HATE PIT BULLS FOR SOME REASON.THEY ARE NOT THE BEST DOG FOR EVERYONE, BUT NOT EVERYONE THAT OWNS ONE IS AS YOU SAY.I DON'T KNOW HOW IT IS WHERE YOU LIVE,BUT PEOPLE THAT OWN THEM HERE ARE NOT LOWLIFES. AND I THINK YOU HAVE BEEN LESS THAN HONEST WITH YOUR ATTEMPT TO DEAL WITH YOUR HATRED.THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENS TO ANY BREED OF DOG, IS FOR IT TO BECOME POPULAR.THAT HAS CAUSED MANY PROBLEMS,FOR THE PIT BULL AS WELL AS OTHERS.IN THE PITS CASE IT HAS BEEN ESPECIALLY BAD.BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NOT OWN ANY DOG HAVE THEM.SO REALLY I THINK I KNOW WHAT BOTHERS YOU ABOUT THE WHOLE MESS.ITS NOT THE BREED ITS THE WAY PEOPLE HAVE MISUSED THEM.I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT.TO BE HONEST I HATE PEOPLE MISTREATING ANIMALS.IT HAPPENS EVERYDAY ALL OVER THE WORLD.BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE PIT BULL OWNERS.YOU MAY NOT KNOW THEM BUT AROUND HERE MOST ARE.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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Well! The problem with the Pits that you hear about is that you have heard about them. That is to say that if you have heard about them, they (pits) have done something wrong. If the Press that reported it actually reported the story accurately and it was really a pit bull dog. One of the common denominators in pit attack is that typically the are one of about twenty that were chained up in someones back yard. To the person that is not looking for something to hate, like firedragging, we can see through the story and know that these are game bred or fighting dogs. i.e. the reason for having twenty of them chained with huge log chains to build them up. These are not pets, they are fighting dogs. Not much different than having wild animals like very aggressive Leopards or cheetahs or even worse an abused tiger. So when they do get loose and they will get loose they will do what comes natural to an abused animal, attack. This doesn't even exclude people, when abused they will abuse back. Irresponsible people are the problem not the dog. It is not much different than the freaks that support gun control. The only people that this would effect are the people that you would have never heard from to begin with, law abider's. The criminals aren't going to jump up and say "well now I'm violating four laws not just three so I'm going to stop". Right! This has NEVER EVER WORKED IN ANY SOCIETY!!!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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Dude, I don't care if you know where I am ... I don't mind testing my skills at whatever. You seem to just rage and maybe your dangerous and I would do the world a favor. But in this part of the country, the Parish police can track you down and they can take care of you. So, behave yourself and be very afraid ... a library won't save you. At any rate, there is so much bull on pit sites it makes me sick. They lie and make up information ... and even give false numbers. I check things out. There is a communist rag that is called "People Weekly" This is trash and even sells ray guns in the classified. But I didn't see the article there. I have traveled a lot and don't see too many pits in responsible positions. It's not just their owners....even the princess had two dogs go crazy on her that were pits....they were from the society that wants to show that pits are not dangerous. I had a relative that had a very dangerous animal, it was illegal. But she kept it away from people. It was loving toward her but I know that if she ever falls or becomes sick, he will kill her and eat her. It's in their nature. She loves her "pet" though and thinks it's harmless. I know the nature of the beast. It's not evil or bad ... it's just savage.

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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I don�t mean to sound as though I don�t believe some of the statements about pit bull �temperament� but I checked with the ATTS. They publish these stats and the pit bull was toward the bottom of the list for being just plain dangerous and mean!!! I guess it�s true that the pit bull sites just lie to us!!! This is from the American ATTS Breed Statistics �just the A�s, B�s, and C�s�.. and part of the D�s and E�s!!! these are just the dogs that are rated higher than pits!!! Which was just about every dog listed!!! If you go through the list, you will find that the pit is very low on their list. Shelters use these tests to determine whether or not they should kill the dog that day!!! Do you really think pits rated 3rd? Or even 4th? The higher the number, the better the temperment! American Pit Bull Terrier 446 374 72 83.9% Akbash Dog 12 10 2 83.3% Alaskan Malamute 177 149 28 84.2% American Foxhound 1 1 0 100.0% American Tunnel Terrier 2 2 0 100.0% Azawakh 1 1 0 100.0% Basset Hound 32 27 5 84.4% Bedlington Terrier 14 13 1 92.9% Belgian Laekenois 4 4 0 100.0% Belgian Malinois 175 155 20 88.6% Bernese Mountain Dog 138 118 20 85.5% Black and Tan Coonhound 13 13 0 100.0% Black Russian Terrier 6 5 1 83.3% Bluetick Coonhound 1 1 0 100.0% Boerboel 5 5 0 100.0% Border Terrier 86 77 9 89.5% Borzoi 92 81 11 88.0% Boston Terrier 51 43 8 84.3% Bouvier Des Flanders 836 707 129 84.6% Boxer 317 268 49 84.5% Boykin Spaniel 1 1 0 100.0% Brittany Spaniel 97 88 9 90.7% Brussels Griffon 9 8 1 88.9% Bull Terrier 49 44 5 89.8% Caucasian Ovcharka 4 4 0 100.0% Chart Polski 1 1 0 100.0% Chesapeake Bay Retriever 89 76 13 85.4% Curly-Coated Retriever 141 126 15 89.4% Dachshund (Miniature Longhaired) 16 14 2 87.5% Dogo Argentino 9 8 1 88.9% Dutch Shepherd 5 5 0 100.0% English Cocker Spaniel 57 53 4 93.0% English Jack Russel Terrier 2 2 0 100.0% English Shepherd 3 3 0 100.0% Estrala Mountain Dog 1 1 0 100.0%

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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Mromero says that People magazine ran the article, and yes, there are many websitess that use this reference ... but people magazine (as I have cited) does not reference any article of this nature. Go to their homepage. I cited the website (and unlike the ones that you and "Texas" cite, mine are real). You don't think about any of your sources, most of which are trash and liars such as yourself. You threaten people .. which is a bit strange in this world and you are lucky you aren't writing from jail. You lie, which is par. You want to spread lies and so you cite pit bull webs that are also full of crazies and liars. The "temperment" test is used at shelters, by some clubs to show that their dogs are not so dangerous ... and all it does is show that pits are hot tempered and dangerous. There are many breeds with 100% ratings, I have also seen this site ... and the National Temperment Testing Association, as you cited, does NOT exist and is not listed in the Associations Register. Again lies....and yet the ATTA is often misquoted on pit bull sites saying the pit bull is the third best in temperment of any breed tested!! haha! Liars!

Answer by Bev
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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You say the pit was banned in England but you don't cite your source? Strange. I know it was also banned, but the Queen can accept special gifts and this is the exception. The gifts were to show how safe the pit bull was! It didn't, it showed the pit bull was dangerous. You might be confused about this date anyway. They were still debating the pit in 2000!!! KILLER DOG? IT'S A LOAD OF OLD BULL. Evening News (Edinburgh, Scotland); 8/11/2000 Read the Full Article, Get a FREE Trial for instant access � HighBeam Research Members � Log in now Byline: CATHERINE LYST ANIMAL welfare groups in the Lothians are campaigning against plans to wipe out some of Britain's best-known dogs. Germany is trying to force through European legislation which could see 16 breeds destroyed, banned or placed under severe restrictions after a series of fatal dog attacks. Scottish animal groups and dog owners are concerned about Germany's plans to lobby the European Parliament in a bid to make its new legislation European law by November this year. If passed, such a law would have to be enforced in all member st... http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?DOCID=1G1:82678839&num=8&ctrlInfo=Round3%3AMode3a%3ASR%3AResult

Answer by TEXAS
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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I DIN'T MEAN FOR YOU FIREFAG TO GO TO ANYSITE.I WAS TRYING TO HOOK MROMERO UP TO BIG D'S POSTS.I REALLY COULD NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANYTHING.I THINK YOU ARE A WASTE OF TIME.WITH YOUR DECREPIT MIND.SO WHAT, YOU THINK SOMEONE THREATENED YOU.I DO NOT EVEN KNOW YOU TO THREATEN YOU.I DO NOT THINK YOU HAVE ONE INSTANCE WHERE MROMERO OR I DID ANYTHING BUT INSULT YOU.OH SURE HE SAID YOU COULD FIGHT HIS DOG,BUT HE ALSO SAID A LAWYER WOULD DRAW UP PAPERS FOR YOU TO SIGN.SOME GUY CALLING HIMSELF RON X SAID YOU WERE NOT PLAYING STRAIGHT AND IF IT WAS POKER HE WOULD SHOOT YOU.WELL THAT WAS NOT ME AND PLUS LIKE HE SAID HE DID'NT CARE ABOUT THE DOG-WOLF STUFF.SO I DON'T THINK HE REALLY THREATENED YOU.[AFTER ALL IS THIS POKER?]DAZZMAN WANTED TO FIGHT YOU BUT HE DID'T EVEN KNOW YOU AND SAID YOU GAVE YOUR STATE AWAY YOURSELF.AND WHEN YOU WARNED HIM HE BACKED OFF.SO HOW IS IT YOU THINK ANYONE CAN THREATEN YOU WHEN THEY HAVE NO CLUE AS TO YOUR REAL NAME,ADDRESS OR EVEN IF YOUR STATE IS REALLY TRUE?I THINK YOU ARE LIVING IN A FALDERAL WORLD.YOU MUST BE AWFULLY BORED TO CARRY THIS ON AS LONG AS YOU HAVE.I AM GLAD YOU DO NOT LIKE PIT BULLS IT MAKES ME PROUD.[I HOPE YOU DID'T FIND THAT THREATENING]

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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Firedrinkin is clearly unstable, he has some mental problems that I have talked to him about before. Whether or not he decides to get help like his Dr.s have asked him to doesn't matter to us. It's clear that he is delusional even when things a proved with out a shadow of a doubt he still can't seem to bring himself around to living in the real world. See I never quoted the People magazine article I just posted the site. Now I have also called the Police dept. that is Popsicle works for and have found that every word of the ARTICLE IS TRUE, call the author. It's easy to do. If you FIREDRAGQUEEN, PETE, BEV, which ever personality you are using this time think that you are being threaten call 911 and tell them of your situation. They will handle it from there. I suspect that in your area they are very familiar with you and they won't even investigate. SO QUIT TALKING AND START DIALING. I suspect that you have traveled quite often. Thats what criminals have to do to stay out of prison. My question is why are you in people backyards while you travel. This leads me to my next question. What are you doing while your traveling and why in the world are you in peoples backyard's? Probably the same reason you won't call any law enforcement agency and tell them that you think that your being threatened. A little thing called NCIC. They'll know exactly who you are even though you'll be giving them funny names like, Bev, Pete the dragon, firefaggin, Drinkindragon, faggendragon, lyingdragen what ever you personality happens to be surfacing at the time. It's funny how Firelyer asks for proof then it's given, then he just asks for more. He says that site's you go to don't exist, but we've all gone to them. Do you actually believe that you can tell us that we are not seeing what we are seeing. That is indicative of some very serious underlying mental disorders. I've discussed this before go to my earlier posts. I really want you to get the help that you need. No one needs to know, just look how long you've kept the cross dressing thing secret. Who's going to notice that your going to therapy, really don't worry they will help. Back to the subject at hand. Thanks Texas there is a ton of info there. I didn't think that they have continually recognized the Pit Bull for there undeniable intelligence like that. I have an ABD and a black Lab. Both are great dogs but to tell you the truth I trust the ABD much more. He has NEVER ONCE offered to bite anyone that I haven't told him to bite. The lab on the other hand keeps snapping at my daughters for playing with him to rough. Soon the Pit Bull "Phase" will quit and another breed will take it's place. In the 60's it was German Shepherds, 70's the Doberman, 80's Rotweiler, and the most recent is the pit bull. Now one can see the my "Theory" of its the owners of the dogs and not the dogs. What is popular is taught to fight and made mean. These are the dogs that cause the problems not the pet bowser at home.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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Ha-ha! You are the person that makes murder Threats Texas (aka Mromero, Dazz, and so on). Whom are you speaking to? Yourself? You have been the only other person to post recently. Everyone else posted that wolves have higher PSI and that was it. Whether I work, am independently wealthy, or for whatever reason ... the fact remains that pit bull owners lie on web pages, they are moronic for owning a dog like that unless they can keep them away from children and never leave them unattended. I have dual fences around my animals and I feed them properly and exercise them rigorously. Not on a treadmill by themselves, but with me. I have been among wild animals and dogs ... dogs are like immature wolves. Young wolves bark and whine. They play, they have floppy ears and curl their tale. Just like dogs .. but at one point, they become very aggressive, very strong and a little menacing. Naturally, they can smell better than dogs, they are stronger, and they are a heck of a lot more deadly...even their teeth are bigger. You can show NO scientific work where dogs have higher psi (direct comparisons with wolves) � they all show that wolves have at least twice the bite power and most say five times or more the bite power (Discovery Channel). No credible source questions the ferocity of a wolf .. they are legendary and people used to be fed to wolves in Northern Europe for punishment. The wolves ate them. Pit bulls are not lethal � they just nip. They aren�t big enough to go for the throat as some dogs can and just about all wolves on this continent. They don�t have to kill to survive, and even their fights are tame in comparison. Animal rights people will take the worst of fights and show them over and over again � in fact, most pit fights don�t result in death � it�s very rare, maybe rarer than boxing deaths. Most don�t result in serious injury. Wolf fights are different. Most wolves die fighting other wolves. They are injured by prey. You will fight many wild animals can be deadly when you bow hunt and all you have is a knife if they suddenly attack and your arrow is down. There have been many here with conventional wisdom. Let's face it. In your sick mind, you see nothing of threatening to find someone and kill them. It shows the extent of your rage, the perimeter of your sanity. It's not normal to get this enraged over an issue such as this. You might be a serial killer or someone in a mental hospital.... I didn�t threaten you, there was no need. I didn�t insult you, but you started it and actually � you are rather � dense. At times you don�t make sense.

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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You quoted that ... out of HUNDREDS of breeds tested, the pit was rated 4th in temperament. "out of those 7 breeds the factually apbt is last on the list for bites.out of the hundred and some breeds tested in temperament tests the pitbull ranks 4th highest for best temperament. you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know." As Hmmm..."STEVE-you missed the whole point of debates.and to GSD#1 i agree german shepards are great dogs but according to temperament testing the pitbull is far safer!!the pitbull is ranked 4th best,the german shepard is way on the bottom(sorry don't have time to look up number right now)also many bites are not recorded from shepards on bite" AND YOU EVEN LIE FROM SITES THAT LIE!!!! FOR EXAMPLE, Mromero said, "Actually, several of our rescued Pit Bulls have been adopted by veterinarians. Did you know that the National Canine Temperament Testing Association tested 122 breeds, and Pit Bulls placed the 4th highest with a 95% passing rate?" Dude, show us the site that said 95% !!! You are a liar. The site that said 4th was lying. Now, you change your story and say there are dogs with less temperament ratings!!! Haha! I never said there wasn't, I am saying you can just go through the C's with dogs and find DOZENS that have better temperament. SO MUCH FOR THE LIE THAT PIT BULLSS ARE 4TH IN TEMPERAMENT!!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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Roastcha, cite your sources, if you can. Maybe you just know these things by divine revealation? As for Russian Wolfhounds, I have never seen them used to hunt wolves. I don't know anyone that uses them actually. They get killed too quickly. In Europe, there was a wolf that was only about 50 pounds and even then, the Irish Wolf hound was eaten away. All hunters know this. The Irish Wolfhound is the TALLEST dog, not the BIGGEST. Tall is only an advantage to see over brush and has a few other advantages. There is NO DOG that can bite like a wolf. Pits can't even break bones or crush skulls ... all wolves do this. You need to learn to read a little and study before you make statements publically. It makes you sound haughty. The Irish Wolfhound is only about half the size of a Mastiff. You don't even watch the dog shows do you? The Mastiff (at a healthy weight) can weigh 300 pounds and commonly weigh more than 200 pounds. They are the "dogs of war" quoted in Shakespear. Wolves can kill any hunting dog and they do. MOST dogs killed today in the US are hunting dogs. Bird dogs do the best to stay alive. There are warnings for hunters ... not to be careful not to hurt the wolf, but to save the hunting dog.... Wolves and Hunting Dogs in Wisconsin A guide for reducing conflict between wolves and hunting dogs Provided by the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources, USDA-APHIS- Wildlife Services, Wisconsin Bear Hunters Association, National Wildlife Federation, Wisconsin Wildlife Federation, and the Timber Wolf Alliance. Wolves in Wisconsin By 2002 wolves were distributed across much of the heavily forested portions of northwest and north central Wisconsin, and were starting to spread into forests of the northeastern part of the state. The late winter count in 2003, before pups were born, was a population of over 335 wolves across the state. A small population of about 45 wolves occur west of Wisconsin Rapids in the central forest of Wisconsin, and about 290 wolves occur in northern Wisconsin.... Wolf Conflicts with Dogs As with other wild canids, wolves are very territorial. Wolves guard their territories from other wolves, coyotes, and domestic dogs. Wolves are probably most aggressive toward strange wolves and dogs when wolf pups are small at den and rendezvous sites, during the breeding season in January and February, and when they are protecting a fresh kill. Hound dogs used for hunting bear, coyotes, bobcat, and raccoons, are perhaps at greatest risk of being attacked by wolves. Dogs used for bird hunting are less likely to be attacked. Wolves normally avoid people and are less likely to approach dogs that are in visual or auditory range of humans. Hounds often hunt some distance from hunters, and their baying sound may also present a challenge to the territorial wolves. Highest risk of wolf depredation to dogs seems to occur in July through September, and a moderately high risk occurs in December. These periods signal the summer rendezvous period, and the approach of the winter breeding season.... Reducing Conflict of Wolves with Dogs Avoidance of wolves, by hunters with dogs is the best way to minimize conflict, but because wolves are so wide spread, total avoidance may not be possible. Although wolves do have large territories, they do concentrate a lot of activity in specific areas, such as the rendezvous sites. One of the keys for minimizing wolf problems with dogs is to avoid areas with concentrated wolf use. Move 2 or 3 miles from any rendezvous site, if possible, before releasing dogs. Avoid releasing dogs at baits recently visited by wolves. When looking for bear sign at a bait, make sure to also look for wolf tracks. Be familiar with your own dog's tracks, so that you can distinguish it from any wolf tracks. If a specific bait site is receiving a lot of wolf use, discontinue using it until wolves have left, and concentrate on an alternative bait site.... More information on these topics as well as identifying wolf signs, what to do if your dog is killed or injured by a wolf, canid track identification, and other contacts is available in a printable version: http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/mammals/wolf/wolfhuntdog.htm

Answer by Bev
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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Mromero, did you say, " It's clear that he is delusional even when things a proved with out a shadow of a doubt he still can't seem to bring himself around to living in the real world. See I never quoted the People magazine article I just posted the site. Now I have also called the Police dept. that is Popsicle works for and have found that every word of the ARTICLE IS TRUE, call the author. It's easy to do." I think you did above, because I pasted it here. Give us the number and name of the person you spoke to ... we want to call to. Someone said you didn't mention People, but you cited a site that claimed to be published from People. I went to that site, using the address that was posted. There was no "Popsicle" Oh, I noticed that from Roast about dog's bite...yes, the larger dog bites harder, typically. However, they can't compare to a wolf. The wolf bites at least twice as hard as ANY dog. If you fing a credible site that says otherwise, please post it. We need the number now to call about Popsicle.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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so in your post you claim that wolves have 5 times or more PSI than any dog. Think about that statement. That would be more PSI than an elephant stepping on you, a car running you over, more than a beat, Lion, Tiger, or the animal that kills more people than any other and has the RECORD FOR JAW POWER the hippo. That is more than a white shark, a Polar Bear, more than any other creature known to man. That would bring the PSI of a wolf bite to more than a half loaded tractor trailer running you over. that is 5500lbs++ PSI it bite would puncture hardened steel. ARE YOU CRAZY< THINK ABOUT IT. 5500psi is more than taking my GMC yukon and bringing all of it's weight to bare on one square inch. Then focusing that bite and expecting it not to SHATTER the lower jaw bone while it is exploding the teeth into little tiny pieces. YA RIGHT THINK ABOUT THE FOOLISHNESS OF YOUR STATEMENTS. Ask an engineer to work that up for you. Most Bullets fired from the largest civilian weapons can't produce that much force and that has been measure, quite accurately in fact. WHAT AN IDIOT

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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I have not HUNTED wolves, but I can track and I can track wolves. Wolves travel by walking and trotting. They are hunters and save their energy. They go in ... reasonably straight lines Dogs cover distance, and this is true when hunting, by erratic movements. The gallop at times and even bound along back and forth. They weave and this tires them. Wolves generally use direct registration when they walk (the wolf's rear foot steps in line with front paw). VERY few dogs do not. A wolf track is 3.5inches and this doesn�t include their claws. Few dogs have tracks that big. Wolf scats have cylindrical shapes bigger than an inch thick and tapered with hair. They are 4 to 8 inches long. You can see bones and deer hide and other game in the scat. Dog scat doesn�t have hair in the tapered fringe and has cereal. What�s really weird is running into a wolf rendezvous place. They leave their cubs there, usually unattended. It�s a bad feeling to come upon one, because you know the wolves will return, maybe not for days, but you might be there .. at the wrong time. It�s not a good place to be, even with a gun or bow and arrow. When you bow hunt, you generally can�t carry even a side arm or other equipment. So, you worry about this. Every hunter with a dog that is really a hunting dog will check with the station to see if there have been dog depredations in the season. DNR wildlife biologists give free advice and they can also tell you areas to avoid wolves. I carry a bell on each dog. For some reason, wolves and other animals associate this with man, and with the exception of the polar bear, they will avoid the bell. Any wild animal afraid of dogs are afraid because of their fear of man. Many hunters will urinate on their hounds to help protect them. If your hunting dog is killed by a wolf, you can get some compensation, but not enough to cover a good dog. Number vary from place to place, but Alaska allows you to hunt wolves. If the wolves kill your dog, you are out of luck. The number to start would be: Northern Wisconsin: (800) 228-1368 or (715) 369-5221 Southern and Central Wisconsin: (800) 433-0663 or (920) 324-4514 This is a toll free number Brutus. You can call it and find out the difference between a wolf kill and a dog kill. Wolves, large ones, will eat even the bones. You find it in their scat. Most dogs eat cereal. A wolf kill will be ripped to pieces. That�s why criminals used to be fed to wolves. The death was so brutal. About 1 in 4 or 5 wolves is a long wolf. They will more likely attack a dog than the pack. I have seen what wolves can do and of all animals in the wild, they seem the most likely to fight the dog. Other animals will stay at bay. So, it's best to avoid the wolf altogether, not to hunt where wolves have killed dogs ... and just be careful.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/10/2004
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Haha! Mromero says, "so in your post you claim that wolves have 5 times or more PSI than any dog. Think about that statement. That would be more PSI than an elephant stepping on you, a car running you over" Dude, I didn't say anything about a wolf bite being 5500psi. I said the dog bite is lower, more like 350! The discovery channel said 4 or 5 times, every scientific source says at least twice that of any dog. I know what a wolf can do. But ... as far as you TRUCK is concerned, you are talking about mass and we are talking about force!!! There's a difference. If you spread the 5500psi out to a square foot, the force would only be about 39 pounds per square inch!!!! that's it. That why .. if they measure the PRESSURE exerted, there are many things to consider (5500psi divided by 144 = 38.) If they use deflection, it would be the force required to deflect a spring a certain distance. This would be more accurate and ... also standard. Alligators, by the way, have the strongest bite and can apply this type of pressure. Dogs don't bite that hard ... they generally just do soft tissue damage. The wolf can also run 55mph which is faster than any dog. "STRENGTHS: � It can reach speeds of 55 mph in short sprints, and can run for long distances."http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/animalfaceoff/challenge/challenge6.html Wolves are synapsid with a dentary - squamosal jaw articulation. Discovery's "Animal Face Off" uses research from the USF Ichthyology and Functional Morphology Laboratory University of South Florida Department of Biology, SCA 110 4202 East Fowler Ave. Tampa, FL 33620 813-974-2878 motta@cas.usf.edu The alligator can bite so hard, it's difficult to imagine: "So, what about this bite force estimated from the pelvis of a Triceratops? To examine whether or not T. rex had a "weak" dentition, it's necessary to define the word weak. And as with speed, fair comparisons can only be made when the relative size of the animal is taken into account. The scientists examining those T. rex bite marks estimated that it took 6,400 N (Newtons) of force to make the deepest marks on the bone. But due to the mechanical advantage of teeth at the back of the jaw, it's likely that more force may have been produced at more posterior teeth. They estimated 13,400 N. For perspective, a Newton is about equivalent to 0.1 kg of weight (or about 0.2 pounds). For comparison, they noted that an American alligator could bite with a force of about 13,300 N, or 100 N less than the T. rex, and so proclaimed that T. rex could bite harder than any other animal known " http://utweb.ut.edu/faculty/mmeers/res/trex/trexbite.html "But let's put this into perspective. The alligator in question only weighed a few hundred pounds (approximately 350 kg or 780 pounds). T. rex likely weighed more in the neighborhood of 5,371 kg (a little less than 12,000 pounds)! So, what they showed was that an animal some 15 times larger than an alligator could bite harder. Not exactly a surprise. The T. rex bite marks they examined included marks for several teeth, and the 13,400 N figure was for a single tooth. So the total bite force would have been substantially higher, though we can't be sure how much. Taking the more anterior tooth as an average, and assuming all of the teeth were involved in the bite (a big assumption), the total bite force evidenced in that specimen may have been in the neighborhood of 153,000 N (6,400 x 24 maxillary teeth). While this is a high absolute number, we have no way of judging whether or not it is what we would expect. Is that what you'd expect from an animal of that size? So Barsbold's hypothesis was not actually tested. So does this affect their results? No. It does, however, affect the implications of their research. So what did the tooth marks tell us? Well, they told us how hard a T. rex had to bite to make those particular marks, but nothing else. ...certainly not whether or not a T. rex dentition could be characterized as "strong" or "weak." To test Barsbold's hypothesis, we need more information, specifically, we need an expected bite force for T. rex. The question Barsbold raised was one or relative strength. Of course it's strong by our standards or even the standards of a big alligator. But is it as strong as we would expect in a predator that size? In order to begin to address this question, an expectation of "normal" is an absolute necessity." ((TAKE A LOOK AT THIS ARTICLE. THE IMPORTANCE HERE IS THAT IT DISCUSSES BITE FORCE AND PREY AND SO ON .. WOLVES KILL ANIMALS TEN TIMES THEIR SIZE. THIS INDICATES A HUGE BITE FORCE POTENTIAL. Pit bulls have no prey at all ... they have weak jaws in comparison and this is indicated by their inability to kill even an adult human that is healthy. A pit weighing 45 pounnds would do well to kill an animal that weighed 50 pounds. Bite Force To begin to examine the possibility that T. rex had a relatively weak dentition, you would need to know how hard a T. rex could be expected to bite given its size (body mass). With an estimate of expected bite force, you could then go about testing whether or not T. rex actually exhibited a dentition that was weaker than expected, or even examine other parameters. If it was subsequently shown that T. rex dentitions were weaker than expected for an animal of that size, then it would become possible to make inferences about its feeding behavior, for instance arguing that it was unlikely to have engaged in struggles with very large prey, though of course there is no doubt that the dentition could have stood-up to resistance from smaller prey items. Bite force alone, however, may not tell you much at all. It certainly won't tell you whether or not T. rex was a predator or a scavenger, because it's only a single variable in a rather complex problem. Nevermind for a moment that the world today has very few pure scavengers (vultures and other birds). Bite force simply doesn't have a predictable relationship with behavior. Living predators bite quite hard. Hyenas bite unusually hard, which might lead you to think that scavengers ought to bite relatively hard, but hyenas are also excellent predators. Their unusual bite force is strongly correlated with bone-crushing, which is only arguably associated with scavenging. Could you be a hyena-style scavenger and have a weaker bite force? Certainly, as long as you aren't counting on bone marrow to provide a significant percentage of your nutrition. Could you crush bones and still be a predator. Again, of course, as long as you meet other criteria necessary for predatory behavior (see below for one example). We can establish expectations for biomechanical properties in extinct taxa by examining those same properties in extant taxa. In the article above, Meers (see reference above) examined the relationship between bite force and body mass for vertebrate predators of all kinds (cats, alligators, etc.), and found that there is a strong relationship between these variables regardless of what kind of animal is examined. It follows then that, the relationship should hold reasonably well for other kinds of vertebrates (e.g., dinosaurs). When the regression is extrapolated out to the body mass of a T. rex, he found that you could expect a bite force of between 183,000 and 235,000 Newtons for a bilateral (both sides) bite (depending on some assumptions - click graph at left). This approximates to about the same as 23,500 pounds of force, or roughly (very roughly) 80 pounds per square inch of tooth. So how does it compare to the earlier claim of a weak dentition? Well, the scientists in that example presented numbers for a single tooth mark. If you extrapolate their number for one tooth to the other available teeth, the numbers Meers estimates for expected maximum bite force in T. rex are about 50% higher. In short, the earlier workers didn't show that T. rex had a high bite force at all, but rather that the bite mark in question is not outside of the range expected for an animal the size of a T. rex. The remaining problem is that the bite force of an animal doesn't really tell you much about its behavior. Among living mammals, for example, the highest bite forces (relative to body mass) are recorded among hyenas. Hyenas, however, are both excellent predators as well as scavengers. So, an unusually high bite force for T. rex wouldn't even tell us if it was a predator or a scavenger. It would only suggest that it was crushing bone, something that's become somewhat clear in recent years already. Body Mass Body mass of predators and prey may be more informative of behavior in extinct taxa. Specifically, the act of killing something requires physical confrontation, during which the prey can be expected to defend themselves. In short, predation is risky business requiring some physical input of energy on par with the expected output of energy from the prey in defense. It follows then that examination then of the relationship between predators and their prey ought to be informative. In the 1980's, the generalized relationship between predators and the size of their prey was established by ecologists. Essentially, these studies showed that predators usually take prey that's their own size or smaller. But this leaves open the question of maximum prey size for a given predator. Since the relationship between predator size and prey size in general was so strong, this research examined the relationship between predators and the size of their largest known prey items. What was found wasn't terribly different from the ecological research of the 1980s. Specifically, solitary predators are highly unlikely to take prey items that are much larger than themselves, while cooperative (or pack) hunters may take much larger animals. For example, a rare Tiger may kill even an adult Guar (roughly 500% greater body mass), but it's comparatively common for a pack of lions to kill a giraffe (roughly 700% greater body mass than a typical lion). So, the question with regard to T. rex becomes one of what's the typical relationship, not the rare occurrence. As it turns out, the average relationship between predator and largest prey body mass is fairly tight statistically (see Meers, 2003). In simple terms, solitary predators largest prey items average 136% of the predator's mass. Pair-bonded cooperative hunters average a bit larger maximum prey size (190%), while pack hunters average maximum prey size is a whopping 542% of the mass of an individual predator! For dinosaurs like T. rex, this means that as long as their hypothesized prey item didn't exceed about 136% of their own body mass, it's reasonable to conclude that T. rex may have been able of killing that potential prey. As it turns out, in the Late Cretaceous of North America, the largest potential prey for T. rex was Triceratops horridus, the famous three-horned dinosaur every little kid loves. With a body mass very similar to estimates for T. rex, it seems likely that T. rex would have been capable of killing even adult Triceratops . But perhaps more interesting is what this implies about the predator-prey relationships between other dinosaurs. For example, during the Jurassic, truly gigantic sauropod dinosaurs would likely have been immune to attacks from any individual large theropod (e.g., Allosaurus). However, packs (herds?) of predators may have been capable of killing even the largest sauropods in their day, much as is seen in the rare instances of lions killing an elephant. It's logical to conclude that this was a similarly rare event, but an isolated sauropod would not likely have been safe despite being one of the largest animals ever to walk on land. Conclusions Statistically, this work indicates essentially two things: (1) we would expect T. rex (or any large theropod) to have a bite force far in excess of any living animal today, (2) and given its size and the size of possible prey items in the Late Cretaceous, T. rex could likely have killed almost anything in its environment. The importance of the bite force estimate here (if any) is that it allows an assessment of future work. Several labs are currently subjecting T. rex skulls to various biomechanical analyses that bear on this issue, from finite element modeling to cross-sectional geometric properties, soft-tissue reconstruction and material properties. If, at the end of that work, one or more of them shows that T. rex may have been substantially stronger or weaker than predicted here, then we may have grounds to conclude that it was interesting. That is to say, that it was different from what we would've expected in a carnivore of that size. If they fall in the range presented here, then we're forced to conclude that T. rex was what we would expect. In short, that it wasn't extraordinary. As to the issue of body mass, these relationships are unlikely to change much with further research. While individual estimates of the body masses may go up or down a few hundred kilograms, the ratio of predator to prey in this case is likely to remain in the ratio established by modern predators and their largest prey items. In short, T. rex had the necessary physical mass to confront adult Triceratops in combat and win. In other words, this research failed to refute the hypothesis that T. rex was a predator, resulting in further support for that hypothesis. While it's perfectly reasonable to expect any large theropod to scavenge when dead carcasses are available (just as alligators and crocodiles do), this research finds no reason to limit the role of T. rex to scavenging.

Answer by therealdeal
Submitted on 6/10/2004
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Wolves have a psi of 1500, rottweilers have a psi of 1800 and pit bulls have a psi of 2400. Wolves kill in packs and pit bulls kill for fun. From reading your responses I dont think any of you know about the underworld of dog fighting. A fighting Pit begins training at 8 months old which consists of running on a treadmill for 10 miles a day and practice fights with dogs other than Pit's. Once a Pit Bull reaches 2 years of age it is put in the ring... at this point a Pit fight can last up to 2 hours... pit bulls will fight to the death and will even fight until the are exhausted to death. A pit has a much better center of gravity than a wolf and happens to be about throat level. I have an 8 month old pit that weighs 80 pounds and has seriously injured my neighbors wolf / husky.... Their wolf decided to jump over our fence to take my dogs food, well it did not happen (her wolf was 3 years old)

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/10/2004
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We all know that you can "CUT AND PASTE" web pages. This has become clear with all of your post. No matter how you figure it PSI=Pounds per square inch. A wolfs jawline isn't anywhere close to the size of my TRUCK. SO NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY PSI=PSI FOOL The Huskies DOG is the most energetic animal in the world and capable of covering more distance per hour/day than any other animal. I SHOULD CORRECT MYSELF "ANY OTHER MAMMAL" BIRDS COVER EXTREME DISTANCES IN JET STREAMS The wolf CAN NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN VIDEOED OR "CLOCKED" AT more than 38mph. CHEETAHS, GREY HOUND AND KANGAROO HOLD THE RECORDS FOR SPEED IF A WOLF HAD EVER BEEN VIDEOED OF CLOCKED AT THESE SPEEDS THERE WOULD BE EVIDENCE IN FACT A GREY HOUND CAN EASILY OUT RUN A WOLF AT A TYPICAL SPEED OF 53.4mph. THEY WERE ALSO USED AS CHASE DOGS FOR HUNTING WOLVES WHEN THEY WERE ALMOST HUNTED TO EXTINCTION. HOW DO YOU THINK THAT HAPPENED. CHECK IT OUT SEARCH THE WEB ONCE AGAIN THE A WOLF IS NOT A TOP PREDATOR LIKE A POLAR BEAR, CROCODILE, BROWN BEAR (GRIZZLY, KODIAK), LION OR TIGER THEY DON'T HAVE THE POWER OR ABILITY EVEN AS A PACK. THATS WHY THEY HAVE NEVER TAKEN A HUMAN LIKE THE OTHER TOP PREDATORS! YOUR FULL OF CRAP, LIKE I SAID BEFORE YOU JUST GO "CUT AND PASTE" SOME MORE B.S. WEB PAGES THEY HAVE BEEN VIDEOED AND CLOCKED WITH REAL RADAR AND LASER EQUIPMENT, LIKE BEARS LIONS TIGERS HYENAS KANGAROO DOGS RABBITS COYOTES WILD DOGS BLUE SHARK WHITE SHARK REEF SHARK BULL SHARK AND A HOST OF OTHER ANIMALS AND THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN VIDEOED OR CLOCKED AT THOSE SPEEDS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T TRAVEL THAT FAST. UNLIKE FLAT LANDERS "LIKE YOU" I DON'T DEPEND ON THE DISNEY CHANNEL FOR MY INFO WE ALL KNOW THAT YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN IN THE MOUNTAINS MUCH LESS EVER TRACKED A WOLF OR KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE MOUNTAINS. THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY ANOTHER "CUT AND PASTE" OF YOURS YOU'VE PROBABLY NEVER EVEN SEEN THEM I LIVE IN THEM EVERYDAY AND NONE OF WHAT YOU'VE "CUT AND PASTED" HAVE YOU EVER DONE. AND WE ALL KNOW IT

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/10/2004
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THEREALDEAL If you read back through my posts you'll find that I've never once claimed to know about dog fighting and I never will. I don't now nor will I ever have anything to do with it. What I do know is what I've stated in my posts. Now I don't get my info from TV like others I get my info from the EXPERIENCE and TRUE information that I've had with animals both domesticated and wild. COMMON SINCE WOULD TELL YOU NOT TO GET YOUR FACTS FROM T.V. SO I DON'T. THEREALDEAL BEFORE YOU TELL ME THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU SHOULD BE SMART ENOUGH TO LOOK THROUGH THE POSTS THAT I'VE WROTE THAT HAVE STATED EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE. EXCEPT FOR BEING STUPID ENOUGH TO BE INVOLVED IN "UNDERGROUND" DOG FIGHTING AS I'VE STATED MANY TIMES BEFORE "THOSE PEOPLE ARE THE PART OF THE PROBLEM, NOT THE SOLUTION". BY THE WAY THE AMERICAN BULL HAS MORE PSI THAN THE ROTT. AND IN MOST CASES THE PIT BULL DOG.

Answer by blackbeard
Submitted on 6/10/2004
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i have seen the newspaper pictures (british newspaper pictures, not a third hand story on the web) of princess anne' s dogs (the same ones that bit 2 children and then later on killed the queen's corgis;) they were bull terriers; they are still alive because of who she is and the fact that she and the queen cheated! bull terrier #1 savaged 2 kids; she paid a fine and got a criminal record! the same bull terrier then killed the queen's corgis; this time the dog would have got the death sentence; however the princess and later on the queen claimed that it was not the same dog, but the other one that killed the corgis! sl now the crime was disributed between 2 dogs; and they are both alive! (i dunno whether the queen sued her daughter or not :) APBT's are banned in the UK under the dangerous dogs act. (that's not to say there aren't any APBT in the UK; they are passed off as staffs or bull-dogs crosses or something like that; but you cannot officially declare your dog to be an APBT if u do it will be confiscated and destroyed.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/10/2004
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So, if you come upon a wolf/wolves why would anyone in the right mind be afraid? NO WOLF/WOLVES HAS EVER KILLED OR EVEN ATTACKED ANYONE IN THE WILD FOR AT LEAST 150 YEARS. IF THE WOLF ENCOUNTERS ANYTHING, INCLUDING DOGS, WITH HUMAN SCENT ON IT THEY FLEE, RUNAWAY, HALL ASS, BLAZE TRAIL, CHECK OUT, HIDE UNDER A ROCK. A TIGER, BROWN BEAR, LION, CROCODILE AND ESPECIALLY THE HIPPO AND POLAR BEAR WILL NOT HESITATE TO HUNT, EAT, KILL OR ATTACK A HUMAN. THE HIPPO AND POLAR BEAR WILL ACTUALLY TARGET HUMANS. GET IT WE'RE ON THE MENU. NO WOLF HAS EVER DONE THIS THAT WE KNOW OF. IF THEY HAD EVEN ONCE WE WOULD HAVE RECORD OF IT. THE WOLF WILL NOT EVEN FEED ON HUMAN REMAINS, EVEN A COYOTE WILL DO THAT. YOU ARE JUST FEEDING EVERYONE THE SAME PRE WW2 HYSTERIA THE SAME HYSTERIA THAT ALMOST DROVE THE WOLF TO EXTINCTION. YOU ARE THE SAME IDIOT THAT WOULD HUNT THEM OUT OF RUMOR AND FEAR. EVEN THE LOWLY PIT BULL WOULD BE MORE THAN MOST WOLVES COULD HANDLE ALONE. MOST OTHER REAL PREDATORS WOULD DESTROY A PIT BULL NOT TO MENTION WHAT THEY (TIGER, HIPPO, LION) WOULD DO TO A WOLF! AND THEY ARE NOT THE TOP OF THE CHAIN THE POLAR BEAR IS. IN THE WILD A WOLF GIVE A POLAR BEAR A WIDE PATH BECAUSE A POLAR BEAR WOULD DESTROY AN ENTIRE PACK OF WOLVES WITHOUT INJURY. NOW IF A WOLF HAD THE CAPABILITY THAT YOU SAY THEY HAVE THEY WOULD BE IN THIS LIST AND THEY ARE NOT THEY HAVEN'T THE SIZE, STRENGTH, OR ABILITY OF EVEN A MT. LION. WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE NEXT LEVEL OF PREDATORS THAT SHARE THE SAME TERRITORY AS SOME WOLVES. IF THE WOLF WAS OF THE DIMENSION THAT YOU SAY THEY ARE THEN THEY WOULD WEIGH APPROXIMATELY 300-500LBS. LIKE THE MT. LION OR BLACK BEAR. AND THEY DON'T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THAT SIZE. BE REALISTIC A WOLF REALLY ISN'T THAT TOUGH IF THEY WERE TO ATTEMPT TO EVEN TAKE ON A MOUNTAIN LION ALSO KNOWN AS A COUGAR, THEY (WOLF) WOULD BE DESTROYED AND CONSUMED. I WOULD NEVER EXPECT A FLATLANDER TO EVEN THINK ABOUT THE MT. LION. WE DO, WE KNOW WHERE THE DANGERS ARE. THAT'S HOW I KNOW YOUR FULL OF CRAP. THE AVERAGE WOLF IS BETWEEN 65-90LBS. THEY ARE NOT BIG ENOUGH TO DO THE THINGS YOU SAY THAT THEY CAN. IF YOU LIVED AROUND HERE YOU'D KNOW THAT, IT'S WHAT WE CALL COMMON SINCE. OH AND BY THE WAY WE ALL KNOW YOU DON'T JUST COME UP HERE AND TRACK WOLVES. A LITTLE THING CALLED ALTITUDE SICKNESS, FLATLANDER CAN'T MAKE IT HERE. SEE FLATLANDERS DON'T THINK ABOUT THESE LITTLE THINGS, WE SEE IT HAPPENING ALL THE TIME. IF YOU HAD DONE THESE THINGS, YOU'D KNOW "THESE THINGS." WE SEE PEOPLE LIKE YOU EVERYDAY DRIVING DOWN THE INTERSTATE "READING AND WATCHING T.V." ABOUT WOLVES. SOMEONE LIKE YOU WHO SAYS THAT YOU'VE JUST, COME UP HERE FROM LOUISIANA AND TRACKED WOLVES WOULDN'T MAKE IT A DAY. IF YOU SURVIVED THE ALTITUDE THE BEARS WOULD GET YOU. IF YOU HAPPENED TO SURVIVE THAT, THEN YOU WOULD GET LOST IN THE ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AND MEADOWS THAT LOOK THE SAME. IF YOU MADE IT THAT FAR THEN, WELL NEVER MIND YOU WOULDN'T. PEOPLE LIKE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR UP AGAINST, YOU COMMONLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT SNOW FLIES 11 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR HERE. YOU DON'T JUST GO TRACK A WOLF WITHOUT THE PROPER EQUIPMENT, PERSONNEL AND TIME. THE WRONG DECISION WILL COST YOU YOUR LIFE. IF YOU HAVE TO CUT AND PASTE OUR INFO AND RELY ON THE INTERNET, T.V. AND OTHERS HERE YOU'LL DIE, QUICK. YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF IN A 10 FOOT SNOW STORM IN THREE HOURS THAT WASN'T PREDICTED BY THE WEATHERMAN ON T.V. OR THE INTERNET. WE ALL KNOW THAT IS ALL YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THATS ALL YOU DO FOR YOUR INFO. YOU SEE, FIREDRAGON, WE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF A SET OF SNOWSHOES OR A HAT. WITHOUT EITHER HERE YOU COULD VERY EASILY DIE, BUT YOU WOULDN'T REALLY KNOW THAT THOUGH WOULD YOU Texas just ignore butthead, maybe fireLIER will go away.

Answer by Texas Charlie
Submitted on 6/10/2004
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My veterinarian denied to me that wolves have longer teeth than domestic dogs. However, an Alta Vista search for images using "wolf" as keyword, showed a wolf skull. Absolutely the teeth are longer. Much longer. They are also longer than a hyena's teeth. The "overbite" (distance between the points of the bottom and top fangs) jumps out like a neon sign. The Alta Vista search also showed a hunter in Alaska, posing with a wolf he shot, probably with a high powered rifle. Hunters are among the cruelest and most cowardly types. Hunters should go after each other---and often do. Anything that moves will be shot at! That's why orange vests became SO common, hunters are stupid and ignorant. They are not "conservationists." They seek the biggest and best trophies. Meaning, they are out to deplete the wild gene pool of the BEST specimens. THAT is not "conservation!" The wolf being posed with had an ALARMINGLY large skull and LONG muzzle. I don't see a Presa Canario or other domestic dog doing much with that wolf, before the coward gunned him down.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/10/2004
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Mromero, your post isn't even worthy of an answer. You must never read the other posts. It's not true that wolves haven't killed people this century. I posted an article from a medical journal written by a forensic expert in Canada. People disappear in the woods all the time. Some might be just lost, but many are eaten by wild animals. I am sure that some of these are wolves. Wolves do try to stay clear of people...but they kill dogs, and the dogs are always within a mile of their hunter companion. Rick, where have you heard that a wolf is not a good "pit" fighting animal? It has nothing to do with its ability to fight. It cannot be controled well as can dogs. But ANYONE that works in the wild and sees what wolves do to dogs or other animals...there is just no doubt. Wolf kill is in pieces, dog kill just has soft tissue damage. I didn't say anything about the outcome of the fight. They compared bites and said the wolf was at least four times that of ANY dog. They used a strain gauge, not some phoney PSI figure. The wolf bite was just about twice the mountain lion bite....they said the mountain lion could use its claws, but wolves use their claws too. About 1 in 4 or 5 wolves are "lone" wolves.

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/10/2004
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Mromero, your post isn't even worthy of an answer. You must never read the other posts. It's not true that wolves haven't killed people this century. I posted an article from a medical journal written by a forensic expert in Canada. People disappear in the woods all the time. Some might be just lost, but many are eaten by wild animals. I am sure that some of these are wolves. Wolves do try to stay clear of people...but they kill dogs, and the dogs are always within a mile of their hunter companion. Rick, where have you heard that a wolf is not a good "pit" fighting animal? It has nothing to do with its ability to fight. It cannot be controled well as can dogs. But ANYONE that works in the wild and sees what wolves do to dogs or other animals...there is just no doubt. Wolf kill is in pieces, dog kill just has soft tissue damage. I didn't say anything about the outcome of the fight. They compared bites and said the wolf was at least four times that of ANY dog. They used a strain gauge, not some phoney PSI figure. The wolf bite was just about twice the mountain lion bite....they said the mountain lion could use its claws, but wolves use their claws too. About 1 in 4 or 5 wolves are "lone" wolves. Documented Human Wolf Attacks By Marv Hagedorn and John Nelson " It has been widely discussed whether a healthy wild wolf has ever attacked a human on this continent. In fact, many say such attacks have never occurred in North America. HISTORY STATES OTHERWISE! It depends on which century you want to research wolves attacking and killing humans,1800's, 1900's or 2000's. Through some quick searches we found some noted naturalists have long documented wolf attacks on humans: John James Audubon, of whom the Audubon society is named, reported an attack involving two men traveling through part of Kentucky near the Ohio border in the winter. The two men were carrying axes when they were viciously attacked by a pack of wolves, they managed to kill three wolves. One man was severely wounded and one man was killed, and devoured by the remainder of the wolves, only bones remained the next day. This occurred about 1830 ( Audubon,J.J.. and Bachman,J,: The Quadrupeds of North America.3 volumes. New York, 1851-1854) In northwestern Colorado, an 18-year-old girl was viciously attacked while bringing in milk cows, she screamed and her brother, who was nearby armed with a gun responded to the scene and killed the Wolf. The wolf was a healthy young animal barely full-grown. This occurred in the summer about 1881 ( Grinnell,G.B; The Trail and Campfire- Wolves and Wolf Nature, New York, 1897) In1942, Michael Dusiak, section foreman for the Canadian Pacific Railway, was attacked by a wolf, the wolf was killed by the trains engineer, and firemen with picks and other tools. It should be noted that this wolf was scanned and inspected by an Investigator Chrichton, a Conservation Officer. His assessment was the animal was young healthy and in good condition. ( " A Record of Timber Wolf Attacking Man"Journal Of Mammology, Vol. 28, No. 3, August 1947) " "Here are some examples from British Columbia: Wolves overran Vancouver Island in the 1980's. Attacks became so common that many articles were published in Canadian magazines documenting such attacks: Aug., 1987 a 16-year-old girl was bitten by a wolf in Algonquin Provincial Park in Ontario, she was bitten on the arm, clothing prevented severe lacerations. The wolf was shot by the Natural Resources personnel and tested negative for rabies. Well-known wolf biologists Dr. David Mech took issue with this attack stating it could not really be considered an authentic attack since the girl wasn't severely injured. (Interview with Ron Tozer, Park Naturalist for Algonquin Provincial Park, July 25, 1988) In August, 1996 eleven-year-old Zack Delventhal was viciously attacked, the boys face had been ripped open, his nose was crushed, parts of his mouth and right cheek were torn. Blood gushed from puncture wounds below his eyes, and the lower part of his right ear was missing and dangling. The wolf was killed by Park authorities and found to be a young healthy adult male wolf ( Cook, Kathy; " Night of the Wolf " Readers Digest, July 1997 p. pp. 114-119) Sports Afield Magazine, December 2000 January 2001 issue, in Alaska a picture of six-year-old John Stenglein, lying in a hospital bed viciously attacked by a healthy male wolf, the wolf was killed by loggers near his camp. Also this same article reports a 22-year-old man in his sleeping bag on a beach near Vancouver BC who was also viciously attacked by a healthy male wolf, the wolf was killed by Canadian officials. In Northern India since 1996 there has been more than 80 people killed and eaten by wolves, in1998 30 (thirty) of those killed were children between ages of one (1) and twelve (12.) See National Geographic, Man Eaters of India)" " Wolves are known as man-eaters throughout the world, don�t be fooled by unfounded rhetoric that �there has never been a documented wolf attack on humans� or �wolves are needed within our ecosystem to allow natural management to begin�. Lewis and Clark didn�t eat horsemeat when exploring the west because they wanted to; the wolf population was so large that game (deer, elk and moose) was in such short supply that they had to kill one of their own horses to survive. " "A detailed study of over 80 wolf/human encounters in Alaska/Canada was recently released and can be found in the AK F&G website here:" Wolf Encounters section 1 Wolf Encounters section 2 Wolf Encounters section 3 Wolf Encounters section 4 Like it or not, man has now taken the place as the top predator within the world�s food chain, it�s now man�s responsibility to also step in to manage ALL wildlife populations to ensure healthy ecosystems for our future. �Natural Biological Management� that was taught in colleges throughout the US in the 70�s has since been proven to be a very ineffective way to manage the ebb and tide of all wildlife populations. Only when radical, single focused groups are allowed to influence the management of a single species, is the system thrown off balance. The introduction of the grey wolf in the Idaho, Montana and Wyoming tri-state area is a grand example of how to mess up the balance of nature, not help it. http://www.usa4id.com/Documents/Documented%20Human%20Wolf%20Attacks.htm

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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OK, Texas Charlie, I can see your point, but you are wrong about hunting. Wolves can consume and carry in their stomachs 20 pounds of flesh. They are efficient killing machines .. .when early explorers had to eat their horses, it's because the wolf had killed the game. MN has a couple thousand of them and they are eating up livestock, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. The population of wolves in Alaska is so large that they are becoming a problem and 80 serious encounters have occurred recently. When in Canada or Alaska, I have avoided contact with wolves simply because they are more likely to kill my dogs. Most states make it illegal for bow hunters to even carry sidearms .. I have sufferred many injuries from wild animals and one serious injury. Hunting is not as safe as you think. There are many hunters that are punks however; for example, the ones from the Southwest primarily that go into Colorado and other areas ... they will often complain of "wasting disease" ... but what kind of hunter shoots an animal that barely stands? It's annoying ... but it does take the animal out of the bad food pool. I have posted some numbers here of agencies with the Wild Life and Fisheries....if we didn't hunt, they would have to reduce the populations by poison or let them starve. There's no other way. "1998 Aug 14, Russia announced that it would proceed with plans to regulate wolves with a planned poisoning of 15,000." http://www.eleggua.com/History/1998D.html Do you eat meat from the store? These animals are raised to die. In the wild .. WE all die, but not by old age. By tooth and claw and beak. It's a savage, terrible death. Much less merciful that the arrow or knife. Hunting is a great way to interact with the dog as nature intended. It's a great opportunity to make your own way and never buy meat. It's great brotherhood ... and a great place to explore with a significant other too. Some hunters are cowards, or maybe they aren't real hunters. I am afraid sometime, but I do what is necessary to survive. After all, sometimes you get the bear, but sometimes ... you know the bear will get you. You don't see polar bears in the woods .. only on the ice ... but you sure see wolves and other dangerous animals. Here's some more wolf information ... wolves that bite through the skulls of moose and crack bones several inches thick! Minnesotans For Sustainability� Sustainable Society: A society that balances the environment, other life forms, and human interactions over an indefinite time period. Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf? -- Revisited By L. David Mech "There's never been a documented case of a healthy wild wolf killing or seriously injuring a person in North America." Many of us have heard this statement, or even uttered it ourselves, especially those of us who study wolves or try to teach the public about them. But just how true is the statement, and why the qualifiers? The statement has been around for many years. Has there never been an exception? Furthermore, if wolves do not attack people, why don't they? Nevertheless, these are the same wolves I have watched tackle an adult musk ox and tear it apart. Their jaws were strong enough to crack the ends off the musk ox's three-inch-wide leg bones. Relatives of these wolves to the south have been able to crack open the skulls of adult moose. It is clear that wolves could easily kill a human if they so desired. Yet, at least until recently, no one has ever turned up dead, missing, eaten or even seriously injured by a nonrabid wolf during all the many millions of visitor days in our national forests, parks and other wilderness areas where wolves reside. There are a few places, however, where wolves have either lost their shyness of people or perhaps never developed it. An example of the latter is in the high Arctic, where I live with "my pack" each summer. Examples of the former can be found in several national parks where some wolves, like some coyotes and bears, have become accustomed to people. A final part of the answer, however, is rather disconcerting. I am referring here to incidents, mostly in Asia and Europe, in which wolves apparently have killed or seriously injured people. For centuries such accounts have emanated from areas like Russia, China, the Mideast, and even Spain and other European countries. Many such accounts are no doubt attributable to rabid wolves which, like rabid dogs, squirrels and skunks, will attack people. Nevertheless, recent reports of wolves killing people in India have been checked by qualified authorities and appear to be valid. From March to October 1996, a wolf or wolves allegedly killed or seriously injured 64 children in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh. Dr. Yadvendradev Jhala, a U.S.-trained wolf biologist who studies wolves in his native India, investigated these reports and attempted to determine if any animal other than wolves could have been involved. By examining victims, questioning survivors and witnesses, and checking tracks, hairs and scats, Jhala concluded that a wolf or wolves were involved in the killings. In March and April 1997, another nine or 10 humans apparently fell prey to wolves in the same area. L. David Mech is an internationally known wildlife research biologist who has studied wolves for almost 40 years. He is the founder of the International Wolf Center in Ely, Minnesota a Board of Director. He is published widely in scholarly and popular journals. 1878 British officials recorded 624 human killings by wolves in the area of Banbirpur in the state of Uttar Pradesh. (SFC, 9/1/96, p.A16) http://timelines.ws/countries/INDIA_A.HTML

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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ya I didn't think that you had ever been here and were full of crap. Nothing and I see that you are moving away from PSI argument. Well what do you expect when 5 to 8 wolves attack something. The strain is from wolf pulling against wolf pulling against wolf. The pieces are from the wolves pulling it apart as a pack. Once again a lone wolf rarely ever hunts anything of size just little mammals and scavenging. And don't even go there with a wolf against a cougar (Mt. Lion). Mt. lions continuously take wolves and there is a ton of evidence. Bears do the same thing (Brown bears)such as Grizzly and Kodiak. Once again only a FOOL would get his info from T.V. THEY SAID THEMSELVES THEY DIDN'T KNOW THE PSI OF EITHER ANIMAL SO THE GUESSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You just don't get it. There aren't any signs that say "Hikers and Tourists, you are in Cougar (Mt. Lion) Country. Be aware of your surroundings!" These signs are everywhere for Bears and Cougar not wolves. The reason they pose know real danger to people. And the dogs that are killed are pets like Labrador Retrievers and other sporting breeds that can't protect themselves against such an attack. The dogs are also KILLED BY PACKS OF WOLVES. I knew that you had cut and pasted the tracking story, we can tell. Like I said before SOMEONE LIKE YOU WHO RELIESON T.V. AND THE INTERNET TO GET THROUGH LIFE WOULD LAST ABOUT 3 DAYS UP HERE.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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Now your just getting belligerent with you lies firelier. I've hunted the rockies for 20 years and other than a buffalo problem no injury from wild animals. Nor do I know any experienced hunters that have. About your CWD in Colorado, I believe that if you check with the Colorado Division of Wildlife you'll find that there were 5-8 animals that tested for CWD (chronic wasting disease) in Laramie County only. North east of Rocky Mt. National park. Near Estes park where hunting is nearly outlaw because of the flat-landers that come to see the Elk and don't have the ability to get off the road and go find one. The wolf attacks that you site are highly suspect without evidence that is why CDC and other agencies didn't include them. A lot like MURDER to look like wolf attacks. Once again only TOP Predators feed on or attack people. The wolf is not one of these animals.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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Haha! Loser!! Answer by mromero, "YOU CAN'T "BOW HUNT" WITH DOG'S" Yea, you are a complete loser! "Hunting Dogs: I use Fila mastiff hunting dogs and taken 5 1000 lb. bears in the Russia using 2 Fila mastiff hunting dogs. From Filatalk Dog Magazine. BEAR HUNTING WITH FILA HUNTING DOGS IN RUSSIA by Professional Bear Hunter Sven Joa of Germany My Filas dogs are used mainly for "Guarding and Hunting". I take bow and arrow hunters on expeditions where my Fila hunting dogs have taken up to 5 Ber-roks bears (800 to 1200 lbs.bears) in the Russian Ukraine. We hunt with bow and arrow and I use my Fila hunting dogs to spot and run them. After a little training these hunting dogs can spot a bear in the woods at 400 yards and run it on command."http://www.fila.org/svenjoa.htm Boars, Dogs, and Boat Paddles by Patrick L. Willis A trip to remember. That was the one thing about which we were each certain. The last bow was loaded, the list was checked and rechecked, and the long awaited announcement was finally made: �Let�s do it!� Tim and Josh had decided to try the dogs on their first hunt. The rest of the group elected to still or stand hunt. Sitting on the stand that afternoon, the sound of barking hounds in the distance brought back many memories of childhood rabbit and squirrel hunts.http://www.primitivearcher.com/articles/willis.html It is generally illegal to use dogs to actually KILL an animal, that's why they don't allow you to use more than six dogs while hunting. Also, only certain game is forbidden to be hunted during certain parts of the season with dogs ... and this includes with dogs and rifles. You apparently are aware of some aspects of the law, or maybe you just read something on the Internet ... but again, you are full of bull!! Haha!! It is illegal to: � hunt or pursue animals, or train dogs, in an area baited in violation of a, b, or e (above) from July 1 through January 1 unless the area is completely free of baiting material for at least 10 consecutive days prior to hunting, pursuing animals or dog training. Dog Training and Use It is illegal to: � Hunt bear with dogs, except in subzone A1 and the nonshaded portion of zone A of the bear hunting management zones map during the season for dogs. � Train dogs by pursuing bear except from July 1 through August 31. Bear dog training is not permitted during the bear hunting season. � Train dogs on DNR lands, from April 15 through July 31, unless the dog is on a leash no longer than 8 feet, except on Class 1 field trial grounds or for bear dog training on DNR lands other than state parks after July 1. � Hunt or train dogs unless one person in the group has on their person rabies tags or dog license tags for each dog. � Hunt, train dogs, or pursue bear with a dog that is not tattooed, or that isn�t wearing a collar with the owner�s name and address attached. � Allow the dogs to kill any wild animal. � Hunt, train dogs, or pursue bear with more than 6 dogs in a single pack, regardless of the number of bear hunters or the dog�s ownership. Note: Dogs may be replaced that fall out of the chase, but no more than 6 dogs may be used to pursue bear regardless of the number of bear hunters and regardless of the dog ownership. 2004 Season Dates In Zone A1 and the unshaded portions of Zones A and B, where bear hunting with dogs is allowed: September 8 � September 14: Baiting and all methods not including the use of dogs September 15 � October 5: All methods October 6 � October 12: With aid of dogs only In Zone C and the shaded portion of Zone A, where bear hunting with dogs is not allowed: September 8�October 12 http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/regs/04BearRegs.pdf Most states allow the dogs in every case if they are leashed. Some states don't allow dogs even with rifles. "The FWC has adopted a rule that addresses hunter responsibility regarding the use of dogs in the pursuit of game. This rule requires hunters using dogs, including those using bird dogs or retrievers, to have their dogs wear collars that identify the owner. This rule also requires dog hunters to possess written permission from landowners before allowing their dogs to pursue game on a landowner�s property. If you have questions or need additional information regarding this rule, contact the FWC regional office in your area. Deer Dogs: Deer dogs may be trained during the closed season for taking deer when such dogs are constantly attached to a leash or rope in the hands of the trainer. Deer dogs are allowed to run free for training purposes only during the deer-dog training season (page 17). The possession of any gun while training deer dogs is prohibited. " "It happens to everyone who bowhunts long enough and despite taking precautions - sometimes you just get a bad hit. In 1978 a group of hunters from NY State got together and decided to form a group called Deer Search Inc. Their purpose was to help track wounded deer that would otherwise be lost by conventional tracking methods. Some years later the use of dogs to track wounded animals was legalized in NY and soon other states followed their lead. Today it is legal in a number of states and growing as an accepted method of tracking wounded deer." http://www.bowsite.org/bowsite/features/articles/trackingdogs/index.cfm Many states used to only allow dogs for birds. This has changed. You must be really old!!! Even in the old days, only some states would disallow dog use in hunting!!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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Haha! Loser!! Answer by mromero, "YOU CAN'T "BOW HUNT" WITH DOG'S" Yea, you are a complete loser! "Hunting Dogs: I use Fila mastiff hunting dogs and taken 5 1000 lb. bears in the Russia using 2 Fila mastiff hunting dogs. From Filatalk Dog Magazine. BEAR HUNTING WITH FILA HUNTING DOGS IN RUSSIA by Professional Bear Hunter Sven Joa of Germany My Filas dogs are used mainly for "Guarding and Hunting". I take bow and arrow hunters on expeditions where my Fila hunting dogs have taken up to 5 Ber-roks bears (800 to 1200 lbs.bears) in the Russian Ukraine. We hunt with bow and arrow and I use my Fila hunting dogs to spot and run them. After a little training these hunting dogs can spot a bear in the woods at 400 yards and run it on command."http://www.fila.org/svenjoa.htm Boars, Dogs, and Boat Paddles by Patrick L. Willis A trip to remember. That was the one thing about which we were each certain. The last bow was loaded, the list was checked and rechecked, and the long awaited announcement was finally made: �Let�s do it!� Tim and Josh had decided to try the dogs on their first hunt. The rest of the group elected to still or stand hunt. Sitting on the stand that afternoon, the sound of barking hounds in the distance brought back many memories of childhood rabbit and squirrel hunts.http://www.primitivearcher.com/articles/willis.html It is generally illegal to use dogs to actually KILL an animal, that's why they don't allow you to use more than six dogs while hunting. Also, only certain game is forbidden to be hunted during certain parts of the season with dogs ... and this includes with dogs and rifles. You apparently are aware of some aspects of the law, or maybe you just read something on the Internet ... but again, you are full of bull!! Haha!! It is illegal to: � hunt or pursue animals, or train dogs, in an area baited in violation of a, b, or e (above) from July 1 through January 1 unless the area is completely free of baiting material for at least 10 consecutive days prior to hunting, pursuing animals or dog training. Dog Training and Use It is illegal to: � Hunt bear with dogs, except in subzone A1 and the nonshaded portion of zone A of the bear hunting management zones map during the season for dogs. � Train dogs by pursuing bear except from July 1 through August 31. Bear dog training is not permitted during the bear hunting season. � Train dogs on DNR lands, from April 15 through July 31, unless the dog is on a leash no longer than 8 feet, except on Class 1 field trial grounds or for bear dog training on DNR lands other than state parks after July 1. � Hunt or train dogs unless one person in the group has on their person rabies tags or dog license tags for each dog. � Hunt, train dogs, or pursue bear with a dog that is not tattooed, or that isn�t wearing a collar with the owner�s name and address attached. � Allow the dogs to kill any wild animal. � Hunt, train dogs, or pursue bear with more than 6 dogs in a single pack, regardless of the number of bear hunters or the dog�s ownership. Note: Dogs may be replaced that fall out of the chase, but no more than 6 dogs may be used to pursue bear regardless of the number of bear hunters and regardless of the dog ownership. 2004 Season Dates In Zone A1 and the unshaded portions of Zones A and B, where bear hunting with dogs is allowed: September 8 � September 14: Baiting and all methods not including the use of dogs September 15 � October 5: All methods October 6 � October 12: With aid of dogs only In Zone C and the shaded portion of Zone A, where bear hunting with dogs is not allowed: September 8�October 12 http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/regs/04BearRegs.pdf Most states allow the dogs in every case if they are leashed. Some states don't allow dogs even with rifles. "The FWC has adopted a rule that addresses hunter responsibility regarding the use of dogs in the pursuit of game. This rule requires hunters using dogs, including those using bird dogs or retrievers, to have their dogs wear collars that identify the owner. This rule also requires dog hunters to possess written permission from landowners before allowing their dogs to pursue game on a landowner�s property. If you have questions or need additional information regarding this rule, contact the FWC regional office in your area. Deer Dogs: Deer dogs may be trained during the closed season for taking deer when such dogs are constantly attached to a leash or rope in the hands of the trainer. Deer dogs are allowed to run free for training purposes only during the deer-dog training season (page 17). The possession of any gun while training deer dogs is prohibited. " "It happens to everyone who bowhunts long enough and despite taking precautions - sometimes you just get a bad hit. In 1978 a group of hunters from NY State got together and decided to form a group called Deer Search Inc. Their purpose was to help track wounded deer that would otherwise be lost by conventional tracking methods. Some years later the use of dogs to track wounded animals was legalized in NY and soon other states followed their lead. Today it is legal in a number of states and growing as an accepted method of tracking wounded deer." http://www.bowsite.org/bowsite/features/articles/trackingdogs/index.cfm Many states used to only allow dogs for birds. This has changed. You must be really old!!! Even in the old days, only some states would disallow dog use in hunting!! Haha! Dude, cite your sources!!! You just talk and you don't know what you are talking about!! Haha! By now, you should realize PSI is measured in different ways, but that doesn't matter. As long as it's comparable. The kills of animals are comparable. Haha! Loser!

Answer by William
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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Did you say that there were no hunting injuries? "Sixty-two percent (8 of 13) of persons injured by black bears, were hiking, working, or recreating (Table 6). Fifty-nine percent (17 of 29) of persons injured by grizzly bears were hunting," http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:xBGmtnpd8ncJ:www.macecanada.com/downloads/AB_injuries.pdf+hunting+and+human+injuries&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 In 88% of serious or fatal grizzly bear attacks, those injured were engaged in hunting,hiking, or working, ImpactStatement, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Missoula,Montana, USA.ZAR, J.H. 1984. Biostatistical analysis. Second edition.Prentice-Hall Inc., Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey, USA. http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:yTY7dstlAD8J:www.canadianrockies.net/Grizzly/IBA_injury2002.pdf+hunting+and+human+injuries&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 Grizzlies hear 'dinner bell' when hunters move in, researchers say By SCOTT McMILLION, Chronicle Staff Writer Hunters who talk about "dinner-bell" grizzly bears just might have a point, says a study by a group of carnivore researchers who work in and around Yellowstone National Park. When hunting season opens, grizzly bears move in, according to the results of the study to be published shortly in the Wildlife Society Bulletin. The researchers monitored radio-collared grizzlies, wolves and cougars in the park's northern range and in the Absaroka Beartooth Wilderness Area, just north of the park. The project's goal was to see how those predators react to the presence of human hunters. More than half of all grizzly deaths and human injuries occur during big-game hunting seasons, according to statistics compiled by Kevin Frey, an FWP bear specialist. http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2003/12/10/news/03grizbellbzbigs.txt There are about 1.5 million deer/vehicle collisions annually, resulting in 29,000 human injuries and more than $1 billion in insurance claims in addition to the death toll. Deer also carry the ticks that transmit Lyme disease to about 13,000 people each year. Economic damage to agriculture, timber, and landscaping by deer totals more than $1.2 billion a year. http://reason.com/rb/rb112101.shtml ""Human-bear conflicts are increasing in Pennsylvania," said Mark Ternent, Game Commission black bear biologist and chair of the committee. "Bear abundance and distribution, once low because of high mortality and widespread deforestation, have more than tripled in Pennsylvania since 1980. Expansion appears to be continuing into southeastern and western counties. We currently have more than 15,000 bears statewide." http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=156523 Mountain lion attacks on people have increased dramatically since 1986. For example, in California, there were two fatal attacks in 1890 and 1909, and then no further attacks for 77 years, until 1986. From 1986 through 1995, ten verified attacks occurred, an average rate of one per year. That average rate has continued through 1999. Attacks are now numerous enough that there is a support group for attack victims, called California Lion Awareness (CLAW; Outside, 10/95). Since 1970 there has been an average of 14 cougar attacks per year on people in the entire U.S. http://www.topangaonline.com/nature/lionatk.html Last year alone, at least 12 human fatalities involved deer. Pennsylvania remains one of the few eastern states which have no urban deer program, allowing deer densities to continue to increase in urban/suburban communities http://pa.audubon.org/ConferenceSummaryJan04.htm The Pennsylvania Game Commission estimates that there are between 80,000 and 100,000 deer/ vehicle collisions each year in Pennsylvania, resulting in an estimated 3,200 - 5,000 human injurieshttp://pa.audubon.org/ConferenceSummaryJan04.htm 78 fatal 720 non Fatal injuries were recorded in the US in 2004 http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:RoCQOPShhNYJ:www.nssf.org/IS/PDF/NSSF_IIRv3.pdf+hunting+and+human+injuries&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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ANOTHER "PASTE AND CUT" LIE THAT YOU COLLECTED OF THE INTERNET AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT !!!!!! YOU DON'T THINK THAT YOU ARE FOOLING US RIGHT? YOU DON'T LIVE IN THE MOUNTAINS OR YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO WILD BOAR HERE. AND FOR 20 YEARS NOW I HAVE SEEN ONLY ONE PERSON THAT BOW HUNTS WITH A DOG. DOGS MAKE TO MUCH NOISE FOR HUNTING IN THE MOUNTAINS. WITH UPDRAFTS AND THERMALS THE DOGS GET WINDED ALMOST INSTANTLY. THATS WHY YOU DON'T JUST "TRACK DOWN" AN ANIMAL IN THE MOUNTAINS AND SHOOT THEM WITH YOUR BOW. THE ANIMALS IN THE MOUNTAINS TRAVEL IN A MANNER WHICH KEEPS THE WIND IN PROTECTIVE DIRECTIONS. IF YOU TRY TO TRACK THEM THEY WILL WIND YOU AND YOUR DOG!! WE KNOW THAT AND YOU DON'T, THIS ISN'T THE MOVIES. DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK THAT ANYONE BELIEVES THAT YOU,A LOUISIANA FLAT LANDER, HUNT IN RUSSIA, THAT IS JUST ANOTHER WEB PAGE THAT YOU CUT AND PASTED IT'S ILLEGAL TO HUNT WITH DOG'S WHILE YOU ARE BOW HUNTING IN MANY PALACES. YOUR EARLIER "CUT AND PASTE" OF WHERE EVER THOSE IMP ARTICULAR REGULATIONS ARE IN PLACE ARE ONLY FOR THAT PLACE. EVERY STATE HAS THERE OWN. YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW THAT. THAT'S HOW WE KNOW THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT, RULES REGS. AND LAWS ARE DIFFERENT EVERYWHERE YOU GO, INCLUDING SOME "SECTIONS" INSIDE MOST OF THE ROCKY MOUNTAIN STATES. NOBODY BELIEVES THAT YOU HUNT BEAR!! AS MY EARLIER POST CLEARLY POINTS OUT YOU AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU WOULD FALL VICTIM TO THESE PARTS OF THE WORLD. I DIDN'T SAY THAT IT WAS ILLEGAL TO DO IT, BUT NOBODY THAT HUNTS SUCCESSFULLY HERE OR IN MOST MOUNTAIN AREA USE DOGS. MOST PEOPLE THAT BOW HUNT HERE FROM A TREE STAND. UNLIKE THE FLATLANDS AND SWAMPS IT IS VERY EASY TO GET WINDED HERE. WHICH MEANS YOU WOULDN'T BE SUCCESSFUL, HERE. SO YOU CAN'T BOW HUNT HERE OR IN MOST MOUNTAIN AREAS WITH DOGS. WE ALL KNOW THAT

Answer by TEXAS
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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Most canids,such as African wild dogs,dholes,and wolves,seeking larger live prey have tremendous stamina and can run and walk long distances in a day without ill effect.Grey wolves in particlar,are excellent runners and can stay with their prey for chases as long as 20 kilometres,reaching speeds of up to 70 kilometres per hour. Despite their superior running skills,wild canids are not among the most efficient hunters.They cannot bring down large prey effciently and quickly.They cannot even kill a rodent by biting alone but need to shake it to break its neck.Wild canids have rather short canine teeth and curved upper incisors that serve as a pair of secondary incisors.Such dental construction cannot deliver a killing bite but is extremely good for holding of prey.Large cats by contrast,can crush the spine,sever the throat,strangle and suffocate a victim in under a minute,sometimes in seconds. Among wolves,African wild dogs and dholes, the prey is tested for its speed,alertness and fitness.In grey wolves,only 8 per cent of chases of large prey are successful.The 92 per cent that get away have either shown confidence and have continued running,thus merging back into the group,or they have employed their substantial armour of defences:hooves and horns in deer, moose and bison.The young,sick,old and neglected are the ones taken.But even so gaining a kill is lengthy. HERE IS THE TRUTH ABOUT HOW WOLVES REALLY KILL. QUOTED SPIRIT OF THE WILD DOG.BY LESLEY J ROGERS -GISELA KAPLAN.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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So in case you didn't understand FIREWILSON, FIREDRAGON, PETE THE DRAGON Wolves are NOT A THREAT TO HUMANS. THEY WILL NOT ATTACK ANYBODY THEY ARE NOT A THREAT !!!! THAT IS THE CONTEXT OF WHAT I HAD SAID. I'VE EVEN SAID THAT THE BEARS, MT. LION, AND OTHER WILDLIFE CLEARLY ARE MORE OF A THREAT THAN ANY WOLF EVER HAS OR WILL BE. A WOLF SIMPLY ISN'T STRONG ENOUGH, BIG ENOUGH, COURAGEOUS ENOUGH, OR SMART ENOUGH TO HUNT HUMANS. THESE ARE ALSO THE REASONS THAT MOST DOGS THAT MATCH THERE SIZE, ONE ON ONE, KICK THERE ASS. FROM YOUR "CUT AND PASTE" EVEN A DEER IS MORE OF A THREAT THAN A WOLF. BUT I SUSPECT THOSE PEOPLE WEREN'T HURT BY A DEER ATTACKING THEM, MORE LIKELY A CAR ACCIDENT. INJURY TO PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT FROM AROUND HERE ARE A REGULAR OCCURRENCE. AS I HAVE STATED MANY TIMES BEFORE. PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE DANGERS IN THE MOUNTAINS OFTEN FALL VICTIM TO THEM. USUALLY ITS SOME GUY WHO READS EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET (MOST UNTRUE) OR RILEY'SON THE DISCOVER CHANNEL FOR HIS INFO. THEY COME UP HERE INCREDIBLY UNPREPARED AND THINK THAT THEY KNOW EVERYTHING. THEN THEY RELY ON US "FOOLS" TO SAVE THERE LIVES. I TOLD YOU THAT SEVERAL TIMES IN MY EARLIER POSTS.

Answer by TEXAS
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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you have proven you are a fool firefaggot.that and nothing more a little man hiding behind his computer.you drink too much swamp water the other night?start one post firedragon,the same post next pete? thats the sign of a troubled retard.our had you been visiting your relative and her loving savage beast?maybe a little threesome down in the swamp?got you a little crazy and you forgot what you was doing?you swamp rats are a bunch of crawdad eatin barefoot hicks.why i know there has'nt been any fresh blood in those swamps for over 200 years.you rats are so inbred you have 12 fingers and 14 toes.hell some have webbed feet.i bet that dog loving relative has had pups by you and her savage beast dog.i bet some came out of the same litter yours and the beast.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/12/2004
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Ya, I've throughout this "conversation" spaciffically used common hunting terms "WINDED" to see who new what....as I have before with other termenology. WHEN THE ANSWER COMES BACK AND THEY HAVE SAID SOMETHING STUPID LIKE FIRELIER I KNOW THAT THEY ARE FULL OF SH!T. AND TEXAS IS THE ONLY ONE WHO SEEMS TO KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.!! WINDED=DETECTION BECAUSE YOUR GAME SMELLED YOU. BECAUSE ITS SMARTER THAN YOU AND GOT DOWN WIND. THEY GET "WINDED" BECAUSE FLATLANDERS DON'T UNDERSTAND "THERMALS, UPSHOTS, DOWN DRAGHTS AND OTHER MOUNTAIN WIND PATTERNS THAT THE GAME AND PEOPLE WHO ACCUTALLY HUNT HERE UNDERSTAND. WE WEREN'T TALKING ABOUT ARGENTINA, WE WERE SPEAKING ABOUT RUSSIA, NORTH WESTERN US, CANADA AND ALASKA HUNTING BEAR WITH A BOW AND DOGS. WE WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT CATCH DOGS THERE ARE NO BOAR HERE. THATS RIGHT BOW HUNTING WHILE TRACKING WITH DOGS, IN THE REAL MOUNTAINS. 6% TO 30% GRADES THAT WOULD CRIPPLE SOMEONE WHO LIVES AT SEA LEVEL, SHORTLY AFTER THAT WITHOUT MEDICAL ATTENTION YOU WILL PROBABLY DIE. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT A FOOLISH FLATLANDER WHO SAYS THAT HE TRACKS WOLF FOR 10-35 MILES A DAY. HE ACHIEVES THIS IN ALTATUDES THAT START AT SEA LEVEL AND THEN FINISHS UP AROUND 14000FT ABOVE SEA LEVEL! DOG'S ARE NOT USED WITH ANY SUCCESS IN THESE PLACES AS I'VE SAID BEFORE. THE DOGS THAT ARE USED FOR THESE HUNTS IN ARGENTINA WOULD DIE BECAUSE OF THE ALTITUDE+TEMPERATURE AND WEATHER CONDITIONS. THEY ARE CATCH DOGS AS WELL. YES THERE WERE "REPORTS" BUT KNOW PROOF OF WOLF ATTACKS IN EUROPE. THESE ARE ALSO KNOWN AS "RUMORS". LIKE SAID BEFORE EVEN IF I MISSPOKE, WHICH I DIDN'T, I HAVE BEEN CLEAR IN MY POSTS. DO YOU GET THAT "MY POSTS" NOT SOME PLAGIARIZED STORY THAT A 20YR OLD FIRELIER CUT AND PASTED. I WOULD SAY THAT YOUR LYING THROUGH YOUR TEETH THEN AGAIN YOU PROBABLY DON'T HAVE ANY. I SAID BEFORE YOU HAVE NOW PROVING IT, YOU DON'T KNOW SCHMITT ABOUT HUNTING UP HERE! THATS HOW I NEW YOU WERE READING AND WATCHING T.V. TO GET YOUR INFO. YOU WILL BE VERY HUNGRY IF YOU ATTEMPT TO HUNT ANYTHING UP HERE BY TRACK WITH DOG AND HUNTING WITH A BOW. WITH THOSE ANIMALS YOU ALSO MIGHT HAVE A SHOT OF A MAX OF 25 YARDS. SEE, WE KNOW ABOUT THE "DARK FORESTS, BLACK FOREST AND DARD TIMBER" HERE. AFTER THE CLEAN UP LOGGING WAS STOPPED HERE AS WELL AS OTHER PLACES THE FORESTS HAVE GOTTEN INCREDIBLY THICK. SO MY POINT IS THAT YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HUNTING HERE. IF YOU DID YOU WOULD NEVER THINK THAT THIS IS THE MOVIES. MOST BOW HUNTING IS DONE FROM A TREE STAND, A TRICK THAT WAS LEARNED BY THE AMERICAN INDIANS LONG AGO. UNFORTUNATELY T.V. SHOWS PEOPLE TRACKING ANIMALS AND "HUNTING THEM DOWN". SO STICK TO YOUR POSSUM STEW, SQUIRREL, AND TURTLE SOUP. YOU'LL LIVE LONG, DIEING FROM HYPOTHERMIA ISN'T ANY FUN. ASK FIRELIER I BET YA HE'S DONE IT TWICE. THE WOLF BROUGHT HIM BACK TO LIFE! RIGHT TEXAS

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/12/2004
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MACKER, thanks for the information! That wasn't me that posted that!! Anyway, this guy here ...Mromero seems a little unstable! Answer by TEXAS, "you have proven you are a fool firefaggot.that and nothing more a little man hiding behind his computer.you drink too much swamp water the other night?" Dude, Listen. You might threaten people and post under different names, but that's not going to help you against the police. I would put a lid on it, because there's only one person between you that is posting and you have made felony threats. You might find the police taking your computer and you to the station! Being in another state won't help you!! You should stick to the topic. Pits don't have the bite wolves do. You have not cited any credible source, just your mouth and your threats. You make really stupid mistakes. A small amount of knowledge can be a bad thing. You keep speaking about "cut and paste" but I cite my sources, and they are reliable ones. You don't have any sources, except for fake ones!!! The pit bull sites are full of crazies and crap, just like you Mromero. I mean, all these threats and "hate" speach attacks are just a way of showing you are a nut case! Yea, you are both a loser and whackers!! Do you really think anyone believes that an animal that can kill a moose or steer is not as strong as a dog that can't seriously injure an elderly woman in a wheel chair? Haha! Come on!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/12/2004
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Also, if you are in Colorado ... you must never have gone into the woods. The forrests aren't thick there. It's too dry. Much of Colorado is like a desert. If you go to East Texas or in LA, they get more rain in Baton Rouge in a weekend than Denver got in three years!!!! There are REAL forrests there and wetland forrests. Forrests allow you to get closer to the game and is the best place for bow hunting. I also hunt with a rifle. I get my bag limit loser! So, you don't need to give me advice. Blinds are the lazy man's way ... sometimes it's necessary to bait a dangerous animal. I have done this overseas, but there isn't much reason here. We don't have too many "mankillers" in the USA. There are several ways to hunt game .. ambush is not my way. Most hunters are afraid to hunt bear unless they on on an elevated blind, but then ... where's the adventure in that? Many blinds are also illegal in many states..for example drift blinds. It sounds like you have surfed the Internet and come up with a blind advertisement. Bows give you a lot of latitude. For example, in most cities in this state, you can carry your bow and arrow all the time, unless the store objects. There are many places like that... "Archers Oppose New Rules Regulations Would Restrict Bow Use January 9, 2003, By WILLIAM WEIR, Courant Staff Writer CROMWELL -- Archers shot back Wednesday at a plan that would regulate the shooting of arrows, but town officials continue to support the proposal. About 40 bow hunters and target shooters, many from out of town, attended a public hearing to oppose a proposal that would require residents to obtain a permit to use a bow and arrow in town."

Answer by TEXAS
Submitted on 6/12/2004
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YEAH FIREDRAG I REALLY COMMITED A FELONY BY INSULTING A PERSON THAT IS A FLIPPANT FICTITOUS,UNKNOWN NAME ON A SCREEN.TYPE IN YOUR E-MAIL,PHONE#,OR ADDRESS THEN IF YOU GET SOMETHING FROM ME[LOL]YOU WILL HAVE SOMETHING.I HAVE WORKED WITH THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ALL MY LIFE.SO DON'T TELL ME ITS O.K. FOR YOU TO CALL ME IDIOT,LOSER OVER AND OVER JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE MY POSTS.BUT I BETTER KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT!IF YOU WANT RESPECT SHOW SOME AND YOU WILL GET SOME!NO ONE ON HERE HAS ANY IDEA WHO ANYONE ELSE REALLY IS.SO GET OFF YOUR BIG DEAL THAT SOMEONE IS GOING TO REALLY BOTHER TO FIND YOU.THAT IS PLAINLY INSANE I DO NOT KNOW YOU AND I REALLY DO NOT ''HATE'' YOU.I AM AROUND PEOPLE EACH DAY THAT I HAVE TO DEAL WITH IN PERSON,AND THEY ARE A PAIN IN THE ASS.AND GUESS WHAT THEY ARE STILL LIVING.SO IF I WAS CRAZY ENOUGH TO DO SOMETHING TO SOMEONE IT WOULD BE ONE OF THEM.NOT SOMEONE I CAN MERELY LOG OFF ON!

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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Colorado is practically a DESERT. The state recognizes this and has taken action. Large parts of Colorado are brown and dead ... I drive up through Limon and I know. It's flat and dead. The moutains have sparce forrests compared to Washington, Oregon, and so on ... LA, on the other hand is a major producer of trees!!! The state only averages about 17inches!! That's less than Baton Rouge receives in ONE DAY during some parts of the year. Baton Rouge has received 40 inches in a weekend!!! Colorado�s climate is relatively dry and extremely variable. Annual precipitation averages only 17 inches statewide. It varies from a high of 55 inches in a few isolated high-mountain locations to a low of 6 inches in some valleys. Compared to the rest of the United States, the level of precipitation in Colorado is meager. A study of historical dry and wet periods in Colorado by the Colorado Climate Center at CSU identified five significantly severe statewide droughts from the instrumental record over the last century. The last significant multi-year drought in Colorado ended in 1978. The last two decades have seen the most reliable precipitation since before the "dust bowl" of the 1930's, but a severe, sustained drought will occur again. It is only a question of how often, how dry, and how long. http://cwcb.state.co.us/owc/Drought_Planning/PlanningForDrought.pdf 1 foot of snow equals 1 inch of rain. So, if you get 230 inches, that's 19.1 inches. Also, Denver last year recorded the dryest season in a hundred years, possibly a thousand! "Snow helping spark renewed hope By KATHY HANKS hanks@gctelegram.com Date Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:05:37 PM Much like Linus' blanket in Charlie Brown, the snow blanketing the area is bringing a slight sense of security to area farmers. But this week's snow isn't enough to break the drought, say area farmers. Glancing out the window of his office at the Kansas State University Experiment Station Wednesday, Merle Witt, crops agronomist, was seeing what he called "mighty white." It's amazing what a modest amount of moisture can do, not only for the wheat crop but for attitudes, he said. Horton said generally 6 inches of snow equals a half-inch of rain, and one foot of snow equals an inch of rain. That general rule depends on how the snow melts and blows. " http://www.gctelegram.com/news/2003/february/27/story1.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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Frasier? It's not the COLDEST place. It was taken off the National Weather recording list twenty years ago. When I was a kid, we had a time share hunting lodge near there. There is a research station there that records the hourly temperature. THe coldest I could find over a three year period was only -27F. That's not very cold. http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/fraser/data/Database/hq_hrly_temp.txt http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/fraser/data/fefdata.shtml I have hunted polar bear while based at Prudo Bay. It got much colder than -40 there! Here are the temperatures... Each state's low temperature record By Jack Williams, USATODAY.com As you would expect, the coldest temperature ever officially recorded in the United States was in Alaska. It was -79.8 degrees Fahrenheit - rounded off to minus 80 degrees - observed at Prospect Creek Camp in the Endicott Mountains of northern Alaska on Jan. 23, 1971. The Prospect Creek Camp is along the Alaska pipeline about 20 miles north of the Arctic Circle. (Related: The Arctic Circle) The record came during an unusually cold month in Alaska, notes the Weather and Climate Extremes booklet published by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Fairbanks, Alaska, recorded its coldest January on record with a mean temperature of -31.7 F. (The monthly mean is the average of all of the daily highs and lows for the month. This is not the North American low record. The North American low of -81.4 degrees F. was recorded at Snag in Canada's Yukon Territory, on Feb. 3, 1947. A USATODAY.com answer to a question about why Siberia is so cold - the Northern Hemisphere's record low of -90 F was set there - discusses the conditions needed for such extreme cold and also why the coldest parts of the Northern Hemisphere are far south of the North Pole. The University of Alaska at Fairbanks Alaska Science Forum has various articles about the coldest parts of North America, including: The coldest place in North America How Alaska Pipeline oil flows in such cold The Physics of Life at Forty Below Recipe for a cold snap The lowest ever recorded in the contiguous 48 States, was -69.7 degrees - rounded off to minus 70 degrees - at Rogers Pass, in Lewis and Clark County, Mont., on Jan. 20, 1954. Rogers Pass is on State Highway 200 about 40 miles northwest of Helena. It is in mountainous and heavily forested terrain about one-half mile east of and 140 feet below the summit of the Continental Divide. The coldest temperature ever recorded east of the Mississippi River was -55 degrees Fahrenheit in Couderay, Wis., on Feb. 4, 1996. Hawaii is the only state never to record a below-zero temperature. Many are surprised at Hawaii's 12 above reading. But that was measured at the observatory on Mauna Kea, which is 13,770 feet above sea level. Snow falls there from time to time. (Related: Each state's high temperature record) State by state low temperature records State Temp. Date Station Elevation ( F) (feet) Alabama -27 Jan. 30, 1966 New Market 760 Alaska -80 Jan. 23, 1971 Prospect Creek 1,100 Arizona -40 Jan. 7, 1971 Hawley Lake 8,180 Arkansas -29 Feb. 13, 1905 Pond 1,250 California -45 Jan. 20, 1937 Boca 5,532 Colorado -61 Feb. 1, 1985 Maybell 5,920 Connecticut -32 Feb. 16, 1943 Falls Village 585 Delaware -17 Jan. 17, 1893 Millsboro 20 Florida - 2 Feb. 13, 1899 Tallahassee 193 Georgia -17 Jan. 27, 1940 N. Floyd County 1,000 Hawaii 12 May 17, 1979 Mauna Kea 13,770 Idaho -60 Jan. 18, 1943 Island Park Dam 6,285 Illinois -36 Jan. 5, 1999 Congerville 722 Indiana -36 Jan. 19, 1994 New Whiteland 785 Iowa -47 Feb. 3, 1996* Elkader 770 Kansas -40 Feb. 13, 1905 Lebanon 1,812 Kentucky -37 Jan. 19, 1994 Shelbyville 730 Louisiana -16 Feb. 13, 1899 Minden 194 Maine -48 Jan. 19, 1925 Van Buren 458 Maryland -40 Jan. 13, 1912 Oakland 2,461 Massachusetts -35 Jan. 12, 1981 Chester 640 Michigan -51 Feb. 9, 1934 Vanderbilt 785 Minnesota -60 Feb. 2, 1996 Tower 1,430 Mississippi -19 Jan. 30, 1966 Corinth 420 Missouri -40 Feb. 13, 1905 Warsaw 700 Montana -70 Jan. 20, 1954 Rogers Pass 5,470 Nebraska -47 Feb. 12, 1899 Camp Clarke 3,700 Nevada -50 Jan. 8, 1937 San Jacinto 5,200 New Hampshire -47 Jan. 29, 1934 Mt. Washington 6,288 New Jersey -34 Jan. 5, 1904 River Vale 70 New Mexico -50 Feb. 1, 1951 Gavilan 7,350 New York -52 Feb. 18, 1979* Old Forge 1,720 North Carolina -34 Jan. 21, 1985 Mt. Mitchell 6,525 North Dakota -60 Feb. 15, 1936 Parshall 1,929 Ohio -39 Feb. 10, 1899 Milligan 800 Oklahoma -27 Jan. 18, 1930 Watts 958 Oregon -54 Feb. 10, 1933* Seneca 4,700 Pennsylvania -42 Jan. 5, 1904 Smethport est. 1,500 Rhode Island -25 Feb. 5, 1996 Greene 425 South Carolina -19 Jan. 21, 1985 Caesars Head 3,100 South Dakota -58 Feb. 17, 1936 McIntosh 2,277 Tennessee -32 Dec. 30, 1917 Mountain City 2,471 Texas -23 Feb. 8, 1933* Seminole 3,275 Utah -69 Feb. 1, 1985 Peter's Sink 8,092 Vermont -50 Dec. 30, 1933 Bloomfield 915 Virginia -30 Jan. 22, 1985 Mountain Lake 3,870 Washington -48 Dec. 30, 1968 Mazama 2,120 Winthrop 1,755 West Virginia -37 Dec. 30, 1917 Lewisburg 2,200 Wisconsin -55 Feb.4, 1996 Couderay 1,300 Wyoming -66 Feb. 9, 1933 Riverside 6,650 *Also on earlier dates at the same or other places. Source: U.S. National Climatic Data Center (Last updated December 2000)

Answer by JoeBob
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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The Colorado is almost dry ...compared to other rivers!!! It's only 3% of the flow of the Mississippi river!!! "No discussion of water resources and water management is complete without mentioning the Colorado river and the controversy that surrounds the use of its water. The headwaters of the Colorado are in the Wind River Mountains of Wyoming, and in its 2,300 km journey to the ocean the river flows through or abuts seven states and Mexico (Figure 1). Although the drainage basin is large, encompassing much of the southwestern U.S., the annual flow is only about 3% of the Mississippi River and less than a tenth of the Columbia River. Thus, the Colorado river for its size has a very modest flow, and yet it has become the most regulated, controversial, and disputed body of water in the world." http://thermal.gg.utah.edu/teaching/geo1002/assignments/lab5-colorado.htm "Despite the size of its drainage area, the Colorado River ranks only sixth among the nation�s rivers in volume of flow with an average annual flow in excess of 17.5 million acre-feet. (15 million acre-feet at Lee Ferry, the Colorado River Compact division point.) In comparison, the Columbia River�s drainage area is about the same size, but its flow is about 12 times greater."

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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SO YOU THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU "DROVE THUOGH" LIMON NOW YOU KNOW WHAT COLORADO LOOKS LIKE HAHAHAHAHAHA MOST COLORADANS HAVEN'T BEEN TO LIMON WE CONSIDER THAT PART OF KANSAS HAVE YOU EVERY LOOKED AT A MAP, MORON. COLORADO HAS MORE VARIATIONS IN ALTITUDE THAN MOST OTHER PLACES IN THE WORLD. I WAS TALKING ABOUT PLACES THAT ARE 10000FT ABOVE LIMON. THATS WHERE MOST HUNTING TAKES PLACE. WHEN THE WEST WAS SETTLED THE SETTLERS MADE IT THROUGH BATON ROUGE, NO PROBLEM EVEN EASY. MADE IT THOUGH NM, WY, AND EVEN MONTANA. COLORADO WAS A DIFFERENT STORY. AS THE CLARK OF FAMOUS "LEWIS AND CLARK" TEAM. "I HAVE BEEN TO ALL PLACES IN THESE MOUNTAINS FROM THE MONATNA TERRITORY TO MEXICO. THESE IN HAVE TO BE THE MOST BEAUTIFUL IN ALL OF THE WORLD. GOD MUST WANT THEM TO HIMSELF FOR THEY, IN ALL THERE BEAUTY WILL TAKE ANY MANS LIFE IN A WISPER". I told you that Denver was in a drough, moron! So are the mountains in Colorado. 19' of snow is not the average fall it's the average pack, fool. but the point here is that you said that there were no trees in the colorado mountains. Howerver, this is not the only problems for flatlanders in Co. When you guys get lost here you have to be RESCUED by us because, once again, they think that they have learned eveything by watching TV. Limon is in the desert fool! ever heard of Rocky Mountain National Park places like that are uninhabited for a reason and they they are uninhabitable and they are everywhere in these mountains. Yah, you come on up here in your overalls and bare feet and see how long you last. I didn't say that the Co. river was the bigest I only said that most state (western) depend on the water that comes from the mountains. The same mountains that you said had know water. Most of the water that comes from the Co mountains goes to Underground water shelfs. Something that flatlanders don't have or know about. Fraiser Co. what are you talking about You are still a KID and we all know it. Those are "RECORD LOWS" not consistant average LOW. And Fraiser still hold that record, FOOL. So how much SNOW falls in Baton Rouge, this isn't about Luisianna. You said there "were know trees in Colorado". I said "thats how we all know your lying". You have never been to the Rockies or you would never say something so stupid. The part that you seem to be missing is the montana mountains are the same as those in colorado. Colorado has many more cliffs and the altitude is much higher on average. LIKE I SAID YOU WOULDN'T SUVIVE YOUR FIRST HURDLE, ALTITUDE. Hunted polar Bear huh, what guide service did you use. I know several of them there, my Cousin is a guide there with ox and dog teams. yah right!!!!Someone like you wouldn't make it through an elk hunt. YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED ANYTHING THAT I POSTED YOUR JUST MOVING AWAY FROM MY POST BECAUSE ITS OBVOIUS WHAT YOU KNOW! FOOL

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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The value of wood produced in LA was more than SIXTEEN (16) times that of Colorado ...so much for their "forests" In my estimation, they are over cut and lack trees. When you drive through LA, it's a jungle on both sides of the Interstate! the estimated value of shipments of Colorado forest and wood products manufacturers was $467 million in 1997 for certain manufacturing categories http://www.coloradoindustry.org/forest.html#Profile Louisiana�s forest resource is vital to the state�s overall economic development and welfare. Forestry and primary forest products manufacturing provide 29,700 full-time and part-time jobs with an annual payroll plus personal income of $1.2 billion dollars. The annual value of industry shipments exceeds $7.1 billion dollars Production StatisticsIn 1998, 1.2 billion board feet of softwood sawtimber and 219.9 million board feet of hardwood sawtimber (Doyle rule) were harvested. In addition, 3.8 million cords of pine pulpwood, 1.6 million cords of hardwood pulpwood, and 634 thousand cords of softwood chip-n-saw were harvested. The estimated stumpage value of all products harvested was $744.6 million dollars. http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:hRCX90vUjesJ:www.ans.latech.edu/homes/ddeckard/la_for_facts.pdf+Louisiana+and+wood+production&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 You don't know anything about Prudhoe ... I worked for a company there. As for the snow ... let me repeat. One foot of snow equals 1 inch of rain. Even the biggest snowfalls there is less than 20 inches of actual rain, according to your own figures!!! I didn't say anything about pack and neither did you! You seem to make a lot of rash statements and you don't know what you are talking about. Later you are shown to be wrong. I have been in all the forrests there. The rainfall does not allow the trees it does in somewhere such as Mt Ranier or Olympia. It's kind of a strange state in many ways...their educational system is now 44th in the nation, and it really shows with you I think! This anger that is shown is kind of strange too. It implies that you are posting under several screen names, all of which are strange. It's weird that you thought the Colorado River had so much water in it ... very strange. Let's look at the forestry industry...

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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I'm still here! Nope no handcuffs, haven't been kicked off of anything. and now everybody know the truth about everything you've said that's as much CRAP as everything else you've written and we all know it. When you say something make sure you its true or its a lie, thats is how the truth works. IT ALWAYS PREVAILS YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU GOT CAUGHT IN A LIE AND ARE TRYING TO "DEFLECT" PEOPLE FROM YOUR LIES AND ORIGINAL STATEMENTS. THATS WHAT ITS CALLED "DEFLECTING". THE ? IS WHAT HAS MORE PSI A WOLF OR A PIT BULL? YOUR STATEMENT WAS THERE AREN'T ANY TREES IN COLORADO. THE ANSWER IS YOU GOT IN OVER YOUR HEAD! AS CHILDREN OFTEN DO! YOUR STATEMENT YOU LIVE IN LOUISIANA AND HUNT POLAR BEARS. EVERYONES ANS. HAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAH SURE YOU DO!!! YOU HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN OUT OF THAT STATE. WE ALL KNOW IT BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU'VE SAID ABOUT OTHER STATES AND YOU TOTAL LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.

Answer by Beauty
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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Guys please the most interesting facts i've ever read is about my people...the Mi'kmaq it is well documented even in Britain archives and archives in Canada that we have/had our people capable of killing bears with but our own/bare hands (This is a fact and before you go on talking crap look up the archives in Halifax Canada or deeply search the net about our people we got forced to fight in pits before even the birth of pit bulls our people where stolen and then forced in Britain to be pitted on pits vs. humans slaves and many other animals and we are noted to have killed many of their pit bulls even back then ). If you do not believe this start searching the internet you will find out just how tough we are and the Spanish took great care in not to strike our heads with their blades swords as well as the Britain�s due to our superior skeleton structures etc. much like the wolfs being the eldest of all dogs/domestic. Creator has put them on top list and just them being soooo many and scattered sooo wide and far tells us all common sense the APB needs humans to sustain them other then that they are out of natural elements and would all parish off and die but the wolf would thrive in any part of this world. Creator has shown all of us whom/what dogs/breeds are the toughest... they are all still here aren�t they???? Much like our people the mighty Algonquin/Mi'kmaq tribes. Reminds me of Akita's who are used to create Tosa's...also wolfs are used...the aboriginal�s dogs or even humans of their natural elements would beat almost anything in our/their paths. Take us out of our element and perhaps a different story would happen.. nope.. we fought in both world wars and have killed more men then any other race per 1 human vs any other race! We just where sooo pure blooded we didn't have your colds or flu/germs! Yet we are still here and what do they say??? the strongest survive and we... the north Americans aboriginals are still here alive and well.. Breeding and growing! I myself can pick up 100lbs with 1 finger and curl it as easy as a Britain picks up a spot of tea and places it down! Difference is I will not spill anything unlike Britain�s or their descendants. Look at UFC Ultimate fighting champion or K1 fighting� primal instinct and whom dominates this area? Brazil Indians and Hawaiians you have yet to witness our tribes in these matches� beware! We (North American Aboriginals) are even stronger it�s noted and well�well documented! Why are all the American battle ships named after our tribes� that�s correct you didn�t defeat us with your mights only with your pathetic weak gene pools that carried bacteria�s and germs unnatural and unheard of to our pure blooded/clean people. Stop fighting these dogs unless it�s done like Japan for their sakes and yours because what goes around comes around! Welalin, (Thank you) Beauty.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/14/2004
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As for the conduct, I have made not hate statement toward protected groups, nor have I threatened anyone. Saying I could kill a pit bull is protected speach. However, the threats I have received ARE unlawful and constitute felonies. The police don't simply arrest ... they follow the individual for a few months and monitor his email and other behavior. In this state, they enforce these rules. "�Sending Interstate Threatening Communications� as the term implies is a federal crime and is enforced by all states. The Internet provider must drop individuals that fall in this category. The threats can be reported to local police or the FBI. "As a result of the abuse of new electronic communications, in major cities like New York and Los Angeles, police and district attorneys have formed special technology stalking and threat assessment teams who estimate an even higher percentage of their caseloads involve �cyberstalking-type cases.� The LA State Police just about always prosecutes under certain circumstances and the federal law allows them to treat the crime as though it had occurred right here. STATE POLICE, 225-754-8500 At any rate you seem to be out of control and probably a threat to the community as well. It's not normal to use death threats simply because you disagree and are wrong. That shows a form of insanity. A sane person doesn't really believe that a dog has the capability of a wild animal, especially when they can't support this with any documentation. THE CHALLENGE OF UNLAWFUL CONDUCT INVOLVING THE USE OF THE INTERNET "Given the unique nature of the Internet and the importance of protecting First Amendment free speech rights in cyberspace, this paper will propose a threats test that better balances free speech concerns with the prohibition of threats and the protection of potential victims. Under this proposed test, speech amounts to a true threat if: 1) a reasonable person hearing the speech would perceive the speech as a threat to identifiable individuals or entities, in light of relevant factual context, and 2) the speaker intended the speech to be taken as a threat, regardless of whether the speaker intended to actually carry out the threat. "

Answer by blackbeard
Submitted on 6/14/2004
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i've just finished seeing a national geographic program on the "re-introduction of the wolf to yellostone national park" and they focussed on 1 of the packs -"the druid pack"- awesome animals; you can sense the immense power in their jaws; their neck muscles; their chest; thier immense fangs; repeatedly they showed images of wolves which had been killed by other wolves; (1 was of the alfa female called iron lady who had been killed by her younger sister in a 1 on 1 who then took over her boyfriend the alfa male as well! in another clip they showed a pack of wolves harassing a mother grizzly with a cub; and times without number full grown elks and bison were brought down; the power the exudes from a wolf is immense! u can actually sense it! (as luck would have it, at the same time on another channel they were showing a program about pet rescue wherin a large no of fighting pits were being rescued; the difference between the 2 animals was the diff between heaven and hell; i am after seeing the 2 animals side by side pretty willing to bet that a wolf will take on not 1 but 10 game bred well trained, fighting pit bulls and kill all of them without even working up a sweat! there is no comparison; the wolf's fangs will enter the pits jugular withing seconds! and no amount of gameness is going to help it because an animal which has been bled dry cannot fight, no matter how willing it is!

Answer by John
Submitted on 6/14/2004
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Fellas, I left this site alone for a few months and look at what's happened? This is great. Let me try to capture this as briefly as possible: 1. Colorado sucks. I lived there for 5 years in the military. Never live in a high-plains desert state run by hillbillies. 2. All you wolf fans just don't know. Get on a PETA or Greenpeace site and hug each other alot. But don't go out camping in the wilderness you claim to know so much about because we'd lose you forever and our web sites would miss your stupid comments. 3. Man has been breeding dogs to defend livestock from wolves for years. None of you guys know because you haven't lived anywhere but "suburb USA" your whole life. There are places on earth where the entire existence of a family depends on a man to protect his paltry flock of 30 or so sheep so he can sell them and LIVE. Not buy computers and Starbucks coffee, but to buy food and keep his family alive. And you know what he uses to do this? DOGS. In places like Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan this is EVERYDAY life. They don't have money for fences and barns, they live in an open-range environment in a country that is absolutely ROTTEN with wolves. So, they use LGD'smostly Ovcharka types and they don't lose their flocks and their families survive. These dogs KILL wolves, all the time. I lived in Kyrgyzstan for a year building Manas AB in 2002, and I saw these dogs, and I saw dead wolves. It happens all the time. With more and more wolves now threatening livestock in Montana, Idaho, etc, ranchers in the states are now trying to import these breeds from Central Asia. 4. Lastly, get this through your head, hunting and fighting are different abilities. Wolves are not built for fighting, they are built to hunt (in packs) to bring down large game and survive. They do not want to fight with other animals if they cannot help it. They are not built for, nor do they have the single-mindedness to fight to the death with another canine. Once hurt, they would run or "cur", not because they are cowards, but because they need to hunt to live and if they are hurt they cannot do this. It's the same reason leopards run from even a single hyena even though they could kill it in a fight. It's about the individual species mentality, that is all. Sure a wolf can and does kill dogs, and maybe one could kill a Pit Bull, especially a Pit Bull that might be some old lady's sweet pet. But, not a game bred, trained Pit Bull in shape. It's not going to happen. They are too fast (not running fast, I mean fighting speed, it's different), too strong (PSI means nothing, if the Pit gets hold of the wolf and shakes, the wolf will not be able to get him/her off), and way too ready to wage war to the end no matter how much pain gets dealt out. The greatest Pits, the Grand Champions, have had documented fights lasting for several hours and there is just no way a wolf with those long, munchable legs, big rippable, ears, and long, so easy to mangle snout, could survive against one. The wolf has too many physical weaknesses and lacks the will (not a slam, folks, this is the way the animal is naturally) to simply fight to the death with another strong animal.

Answer by JOE
Submitted on 6/14/2004
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you are right john.a wolf has been in the pits and they have lost firedragon,blackbeard just look at a wolf and say WOW,THEY KILL GREAT BIG ELK AND BISON.WELL MAYBE BUT ONLY THE PACK AND THEN THE WEAKEST ONES.THIS HAS TURNED INTO A FLAME WAR.FIREDRAGON THINKS HE IS WITHOUT FAULT BUT HE SHOULDN'THAVE EVEN,SAID THINGS THAT HE DID.PLUS BEING THIS IS A OPEN PUBLIC FORUM HE IS UNKNOWN.SO I THINK HE HAD SOME OFFERS TO FIGHT A PIT BULL.HE THINKS HE WAS SO THREATENED, BUT HOW DO YOU FORCE SOMEONE TO FIGHT A DOG OR A PERSON IF THEY ARE UNKNOWN?IT WOULD HAVE TO BE AGREED UPON.ITS NOT AT ALL REASONABLE TO THINK ONE OF THESE GUYS COULD HAVE FOUND HIM.BESIDES HE CLAIMED TO BE ABLE TO KILL A PIT BULL SO HOW COULD HE BE THREATENED?HE IS VERY SURE OF HIMSELF AND HIS SKILLS.[HE MADE THAT QUITE PLAIN OVER AND OVER]

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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Guard dogs for sheep and animals only alert herders of wolves, they can't stop them! "Jackson applauded the efforts of the two shepherds and five guard dogs. "They�re really good guard dogs. When the wolves howl, the dogs bark. When the wolves actually come in, the dogs� barks change. All we�ve had to do so far is get our flashlights out and walk around. The human presence, so far, has been enough to deter the wolves." http://www.mtexpress.com/2000/06-28-00/6-28wolf.htm Russia also has a very bad wolf problem and the dogs certainly don't help so they must be hunted!!! "However, in Russia, wolves are far from endangered and so conservationists have a much harder case to make against the killing of wolves. Unfortunately, a government controlled program for killing wolves would be quite expensive, so the legalized slaughtering of the animals is an acceptable substitute for the Russian government. Also, wolf pelts are economically useful as well as the other parts of the animal. Also, the wolf is seen as an evil animal by most stereotypes - from Russian folklore to fairy tales such as "Little Red Riding Hood" (9)."The Russian government offers a bounty to anyone who kills a wolf outside of a nature preserve in the country http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web3/rochelle3.html DOGS IN RUSSIA KILL WOLVES THROUGH POISON...THIS IS THE MAIN WAY THEY ARE USED!! "Cruelly enough, the form of poison baiting most often used is for the hunter to lead a live dog out into the woods, cut the dog open, injecting poison into the dog's wounds and leaving it to die hoping that the smell of fresh blood will attract the wolves (10)." http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web3/rochelle3.html DUDE, YOU ARE VERY NAIVE TO THINK THE RUSSIANS DO IT BETTER!!! A History of Wolves in Russia By: Evgeni Okhtin, Chief of the Russian Independent Research Group "Unfortunately, the reaction to this increase in the wolf population was ultimate 'hatred' for the wolf. The people were starving and the wolf took away the people's food, their livestock, and their wild game. Hunting was considered a part of the state food program. The wolf took the food resources and thus the wolf became an 'enemy' of the state." http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/wolf_russia_history.html THE RUSSIANS HAVE MUCH WORSE WOLF PROBLEMS THAN WE DO AND KILL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF WOLVES EACH YEAR!!! "But, as predicted, more and more incidents of wolves attacking livestock, and even humans, are being reported. Special interest hunting groups are increasing pressure to control wolf populations. The trend appears to be against the wolf as we head into the next decade." http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/wolf_russia_history.html There are always people that write books that don't know. They will tell you all about the hunt they did not go on or all about some myth they heard!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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The Russians have a much worse problem with wolves than we do in the USA. The guard dogs must be trained for a couple years. The training involves teaching them how to distract the wolves until the herders can chase the wolves away. The USDA and Wildlife has tried ALL kinds of dogs! The problem is that � as the wolf feeds, he reduces the animal prey (that�s why Lewis & Clark were forced to eat their horses�wolves had eaten the wildlife). The deer and other prey is reduced and the annoyance of predation with guard dogs becomes less than the problems of hunting wild game. So, the wolves come after the sheep and that�s it. Ranchers have even tried Llamas!!! The wolves are fearful at first, then they eat the Llamas too. �Livestock Guarding Dogs Wildlife Services April 2002 Livestock guarding breeds originated in Europe and Asia, where they have been used for centuries to protect sheep from wolves and bears. Americans have used guarding dogs since the mid-1970s. They are large animals (80-120 pounds) and are usually all white or fawn colored with dark muzzles. Some of the more common breeds are Great Pyrenees (France), Komondor (Hungary), Akbash dog and Anatolian shepherd (Turkey), and Maremma (Italy). Unlike herding dogs, guard dogs do not usually herd sheep. Acting independently of humans, guarding dogs stay with or near sheep most of the time and aggressively repel predators. Genetics and proper rearing both contribute to the makeup of a successful guarding dog. Guarding dogs can also be helpful in range sheep operations. However, many factors influence dog effectiveness. A Wyoming sheep rancher noted a significant reduction in coyote predation in his range flocks for the first 3 years he used guarding dogs. During that time, the coyote population continued to increase. In the fourth year, the producer began to see a decrease in his dogs' effectiveness. Coyotes had become so numerous they were simply overwhelming the dogs. By the fifth year, his predation losses had returned to previous levels.� http://www.aphis.usda.gov/oa/pubs/gdog.html AFTER A TIME, THE WOLVES BEGIN TO EAT THE GUARD DOGS!!! THE DOGS MUST RUN FOR THEIR LIVES !!!! �From a recovery stand point the reintroduction has been quite successful. Wolf numbers have grown ten-fold over this 5 to 6 year period. Unfortunately, there is an ever-increasing negative side to this success story. In 1995 Idaho Wildlife Services began its first responses to reported wolf depredations to livestock and livestock guarding dogs.� �Wildlife Services responded to 55 complaints of wolves killing, harassing or chasing livestock and/or livestock guarding dogs. Of those 55 investigations, 24 were designated confirmed. The numbers of livestock depredations are as follows: confirmed, 15 calves, 55 sheep, 3 horses, 1 burro (harassing/chasing) cattle and stock dogs (unspecified amount) (harassing/chasing). Probable depredations were 2 calves, 3 sheep, and an unspecified amount of harassing/chasing horses and cattle. Possible depredations were 5 calves, 47 sheep, 2 goats, and 1 stock dog.� http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/range456/hot-topics/wolves-cattle.htm

Answer by John
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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FIREFAG, as always, you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Wolves in packs may kill LGD's as that is pretty much the way they kill everything. However, single wolves do not kill LGD's they will not risk getting injured or killed. Herders do not stay with their flocks in most open-range environments, they must leave their animals from time to time, as they do in America. If you ever got out from behind the computer and spent some time outdoors, you pasty pencil-neck, you may actually amass some first-hand knowledge. There is not a wolf on earth that can kill a Caucasian Ovcharka one on one. However, as the number of wolves (or coyotes or group of nuns you fool) increase, they will eventually become bold enough to attack the dog or dogs, in mass, and overtake it. That's a numbers game, not an evenly matched contest, and that is the game the wolf plays. If anyone ever saw one of these dogs they would know that a wolf wouldn't last 5 minutes in a fight with one. They are 30-32 inches at the shoulder, weight 180-220 lbs and they have been bred, isolated from the rest of the world, in the Himalayan Mountain ranges for centuries for one reason: to protect sheep, cattle and horses from wolves, bears, and snow leopards. And that's what they do. I've seen it, not read about it, with my own eyes. Dead wolves weighing over 100 pounds with their throats ripped out or heads crushed,with an Ovcharka standing over him with very few cuts and alot of wolf blood on him. Period. Lots of LGD'scan kill a wolf, if they couldn't kill a single wolf they would not be able to protect their flock and man would make (or find) another dog breed who could. The thing is, dog fighting is also legal in Central Asia, and all kinds of dogs are used there. Wolves are used too, since it is legal to own wolves there. However, the dog fighters never use wolves for the Pit fights because they are not game enough, they run from conflict, and they just plain suck at fighting. In these Pits, the APBT is still the King, against Tosas Bandogs, Presas, Filas, Corsos, even Ovcharkas. Give it up, FIREDOOF, in the real world, wolves are not the best fighting canines, they are not even close to the top of the list. They're just wolves. If they were such great fighters we'd be using them instead of making a vastly superior dog.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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Haha! John, YOU are the one that is full of illusions. You are just plain stupid in fact, it's more than just a problem with you. ALL government studies show that there are NO guard dogs that will protect animals from hungry wolves. The human factor must be at work. You could have called the Wildlife people...they could tell you this. Wolves have killed Afghans and just about every other type of dog ... You have NO support for your ridiculous idea except for empty words that do not ring true in a real world. It is YOU that has no experience beyond their front yard. I know ranchers ... I have been to Europe, lived there also, both as a child and later. The Europeans killed the wolves in many areas, so they no longer have trouble. The Russians have a lot of trouble. There are always "dip heads" that write about something and the depth of their knowledge is lacking. For example, they think that lion hunting dogs kill the lion. They assume this. It's simply not true. 1 in 4 or 5 wolves are lone wolves. One such wolf in France alone was responsible for hundreds of human kills, including five in one week. I have posted where a single wolf killed an adult steer. Pits never fought wolves...wolves are to hard to control and no one would pay to see a slaughter of that nature. Wolves kill everyday or at least once a week. Most pits never have to kill anything. I have a picture of a Presa that had it's jaw ripped off from a wolf. The jaw was completely gone. Wolves can crush skulls and the tactic of holding doesn't work with them. Cite your sources, dude. I know all this stuff is in your mind ... part myth, part made up by you. You have your concepts but they are based upon ignorance. I don't hunt wolves because I don't want to risk my dogs. I have thought about hunting in Canada or in Alaska, however. I know others that say it is quite an experience. You will find that NO ONE that actually works with sheep or other live stock in areas frequented by wolves will agree with you. Some do studies and initially, the dogs seem to do well, but then...the game begins to disappear and the wolves eat the livestock. It's as simple as that and a dog can't stop that ... not even 26 dogs, as was in one case. They have even tried Llamas. They also work for a time. You should make some effort to control yourself. Get over it dude. You are a loser.

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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LIVESTOCK GUARD DOGS ARE NOT FOR "FIGHTING" WOLVES, BUT FOR BARKING. EVERYONE IN RANCHING THAT USES THESE DOGS KNOWS THIS!!! The dogs are more extensively used in Europe and Asia for one reason .. wolves were almost exterminated there, as has been posted. The dogs have been tested in the US by the government, and they have these figures ... also, you can call directly and speak to the people that have done these studies. There is NO DOG that can match a wolf. Livestock guard dogs "Writing in The Domestic Dog, a compilation of papers about dog behavior and evolution edited by James Serpell, Raymond Coppinger and Richard Schneider wrote: �Livestock guarding has little to do with the legendary brave companion fiercely protecting its master�s property. Rather, guarding dogs protect by disrupting predators by means of behavior that is ambiguous or contextually inappropriate: barking, tail-wagging, social greeting, play behavior, and, occasionally, aggression. Many species of predator will stop a hunting sequence if disrupted and �discovery� by a big dog is often enough to avert predation.� In other words, a livestock guard attempting to greet or play with a coyote or simply barking at a wildcat or wolf can derail the hunt and save the livestock. In a few words, livestock guard dogs are not the best pets for the average family. These dogs are large, independent, and often aloof, characteristics that are not the easiest to assimilate into a family with children." http://www.canismajor.com/dog/livestck.html "Although livestock guardians are not used as much in the US as they are in Europe and Asia, the US Department of Agriculture has done some research on the use of various breeds in this country. The booklet Livestock Guarding Dogs: Protecting Sheep from Predators is available from USDA at no charge. Ohioans can call Doug Andrews, (614) 469-5681, and ask for Bulletin Number 588 from the USDA Wildlife Services division."

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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Hey, Jake, I bet they call you "Jake the Snake" or Mromero at times. Why not just put in the website? I notice that Jake and his screen names don't do this and they also choose "trash" sites. For example, the People Magazine article that was quoted on one website, but in reality the article did not exist ... it had never been in people magazine. There are dog "breeders" in this company that play up on the myth, but not the reputable ones. EVERY rancher knows what he must do and they don't expect the dog to fight the wolf. A BIG MISCONCEPTION YOU HAVE is that the packs get bigger as the number increases in total population. The pack is generally only the family ... mom and dad and kids...even then, the children will turn on the parents for control and fight to the death. The wolves start eating the guard dogs when the game disappears. That's why wolf hunts are so important. The wolves must be thinned out, not from starvation when the game is gone....because then they eat livestock, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in each state. There's been some talk about "genetics" here by people that have no idea. The wolf evolved over millions of years, as did the dog .... however, the dog represented a mutation that made the dog weak, docile, and easily trained. It was the weakest of wolves initially and it just didn't have the killer instinct. So, the wolf continued to evolve, but only the very strongest survived. The others were killed by wolves or by circumstances. The dog continued to evolve ... a weaker and more docile version of what had a wolf in common ancestry. The pit bull was ... "bred" and not evolved. A few hundred years is not enough time. The pit bull was bred from WEAK animals that were docile and not strong. It was also bred to be small, much smaller than the other animals that were used to fight .... so THIS is their legacy. They remind me of many of the people that go to martial arts schools in the USA. Many that want to really fight and become better fighters BOX. They go to fighting gyms or join the military special forces. The guys in martial arts schools are often the ones that everyone picked on and that are weak. There are exceptions, but in general it seems that many don't want to work and put their time in...they just want to be able to kick some ass. When they get their ass kicked, it's almost a cliche....that doesn't mean that martial arts are useless, it means that the people taking the classes are often ... weak material and you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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"John" said, "However, as the number of wolves (or coyotes or group of nuns you fool) increase, they will eventually become bold enough to attack the dog or dogs, in mass, and overtake it." ACTUALLY, THIS IS A COMMON MISCONCEPTION. Typically, as the wolf population grows, the pack size remains the same. The pack size is determined by the family. It's the dad, mom, and pups ... they kill each other at times and some die, so the pack doesn't get much bigger than 5 to 7. About one or two in each pack becomes a lone wolf. The reason guard dogs work for a time is that their ability to "disrupt" the pack by barking and running is enough to discourage the wolf; however, when the predation is such that the game becomes scarce, they begin to eat the guard dogs as well as live stock. You might think you know more about Russian herding than the Russian Wildlife experts; what you say disagrees with them and sounds like you are trying to sell a dog dishonestly. Also, of note...you seem to think that you know more than all the experts and just go by your head. Your head is not right. Think about it.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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Joe said, �firedragon you worked at least 3 different people up to these statements.with your claims that you could ''kill a pit bull'' you may cause some trouble but you are not blameless.you see what is lacking here is CAPABILITY none know you, your location.nothing was sent to you,so do what ever but no one could have located you.so this got out of hand but your endless taunts and baiting were at the root of it.i think this is just what you wanted to do anyway.so think you are so blameless.� Joe, you have a psychotic viewpoint and are probably the one making the threats. First of all, I was first threatened by telling me they had a pit bull they wanted to attack me. The same person, writing under another screen name, wanted to set up a fight with their pit. I have no doubt I could easily kill the dog; however, this is not a threat, it�s a defense. I have the right to defend myself and also it�s my evaluation that the owner is deranged. Why would anyone want a pit bull to do their fighting for them? Your psychotic interpretation is very strange. It�s illegal to make death threats of any type. It�s not illegal to take the side of any issue that is �protected� under free speech. I did not threaten anyone for their ridiculous beliefs about pit bulls � I cited details as to why their reasoning and beliefs were based upon illusions, delusions, misrepresentations, and false reasoning. I gave every opportunity. After I was insulted, I threw a few back, but they were not �hate� speech (which is illegal), nor were they threats. I can tell you that I think you are a loser.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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Well, last night when I was at work, I spoke with the Baton Rouge PD.'s Office. "INTERNET CRIMES and INVESTIGATIONS". Not one person spoke with them about this site. I then called LSP (Luisianna State Patrol). I asked to speak with the same Internet Crimes investigator. I copied this entire site and all posts. I then faxed it to both Departments Another lie from the Firedip I printed all of this page and faxed it to the federal Prosecutors office in Denver Co. The reply was "There are very few true threats based on your fax, the person whom wrote this last one here seems to be a little confused as to what a "THREAT/'s" actually are. Seems that nothing here is worth worrying about, nothing direct. Accept for one or two where the Poster(for lack of better words) stated that he was going to kill the individual that he was speaking with. The other individual spoke about the harm or killing of someones Pit Bull Dogs, I think that he has threatened to kill several of them. But from a law enforcement side of this issue the complaint of threats is pretty weak all the way around. Keep in mind that I know and you know Mr.******* know of course these are of crimes if they are crimes at all they are so difficult to be proves and prosecuted. Here are just a few reasons that would make this prosecutable, jurisdiction, who was actually using the computer at the time, who had access, which is probably the most common problem. Was it a work machine or one at a Library a machine that has duped another has someone hacked someone Else's computer. Do you know what I mean. I have to work on one every day which is mine alone. However even in a police dept. there is a system that everybody at the PD just kind of share. So who had control of that computer at the time. Not even all states prosecute these types of laws, some don't even know about the case history related to this matter. There is also something called joint cooperation between states and not all states participate, only about 16. Louisiana as far as I know does not participate. So what I'm saying is that laterally any one could have made the entry/'s. If the wrong person is brought to bare and is innocent than you can expect a hellish lawsuit that will cost a fortune to just to defend it's not unusually to ask for 12k to 15k for a retainer. The Court will look at something thats called "ability to Commit". It happens a lot in proving things like Conspiracy, attempted anything, Robbery, homicide, date rape is a big one, and so on. Now the other thing that we would look at is the ability to "commit" and did the victim have reasonable belief that he or shes' life was truly in emanate danger. Does the victim actually believe (state of mind)that this person would follow through with the threat/'s. Seems to me with most cases they (people speaking (Poster) threaten to hurt or crate . In most cases, that is not to say that threats weren't made. Very few speaking to no body particular. Some of the emails weren't specific to who the person was that they (emailer) speaking to." So I told you before puke that there have been no threats here. WELL LETS JUST PUT IT THIS WAY, YOUR THREATS TO CALL THE POLICE HAS JUST BEEN CALLED, LIER! Why can't you understand that the wolf isn't even a top pr-editor and you talking more and more. Speaking of rotten references, You should speaking. The WEB PAGES that you presented are crapppppppppppppppppp. You have to rely on the TV and Internets for your information, its clear that you have no true knowledge or wisdom of your own. YOU JUST HAVE NO REAL EXPERIENCE OF YOUR OWN SO YOU HAVE TO RELY ON VERY LIMITED, VERY IGNORANT SECOND HAND LIES AND RUMORS THAT CAME FROM YOUR COUSIN BA-BA. THEN YOU SET OUT TO PROVE BULLISH!T IN ORDER TO ANTAGONIZE EVERYONE THAT YOU CAN. THEN AS A COWARD WOULD YOU CLAIM THAT YOU HAVE CALLED THE POLICE TO INTIMIDATE OTHERS MY GUESS IS THAT YOU COULDN'T DO THAT (INTIMIDATE)OUT SIDE YOUR MOMMY'S HOME. YOUR PROBABLY A 120# POCK FACED HILLBILLY, DON'T GET ME WRONG I HAPPEN TO LIKE HILL BILLIE'SA LOT THEY GOT GRIT, SOMETHING YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND EVEN IF I EXPLAIN IT TO YOU! WHAT AN IDIOT AFTER LOOKING AT THE LAST POSTERS SITE, DOGS HAVE KILLED WOLFS. UNLIKE 13-17 WOLVES ON ONE DOG, SURE THE KILL IT

Answer by John
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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Get a map out, FIREFAG, I don't know anything about Russian herding.....I never mentioned Russia. Get your geography straight. I'm talking about Central Asia, about Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, specifically. Go tap your internet resources about the correct region, geek. The Ovcharka dog is so effective at repelling wolves that many other countries are trying to import them. Not all LGD'sare the same. Pyrenees, Javas, Bernese, are a more placid defender primarily used as a disruptive force. The more aggressive breeds such as the Komondor and Anatolian Shepherd are less common, and very expensive, and that's why you don't see too many of them. Ovcharkas are a completely different story. They are raised to kill wolves, not repel them, not bark at them. They engage the predator and try to kill it. They are not widespread, so almost no-one outside of their regions has heard of them. Just look up Caucasian Ovcharka, not Central Asian Mountain Dog, the two are different. Seeing is believing, and I'm just telling you what I've seen. Don't give me crap about hunting with dogs, it's a completely unrelated subject. It is not 2 animals in combat. I grew up in the south and have been on 200+ pig hunts with Pits, Curs, Plotts, and Catahlouas and I know the dogs do not bring down the animal, they just catch it and hold it. They don't kill bears or lions, either. Even the Pits cannot kill a pig much over 100 pounds. However, a pig is much tougher to kill than any dog is, and that includes the wolf. Coursehounds for Coyote hunting DO actually kill the animal, and there are reports of Dogos and Filas bringing down Jaguars in South America, but I don't really believe that. Ditto for the report of a Bandog killing a leopard. All of that, though, is unrelated to our subject. Show me reports of single wolves preying on LGD's Single wolves do NOT do this because it doesn't make sense. I mean the wolf is looking for the weak, slow, sick, injured, vulnerable, prey animal, the easy kill. The dog guarding that easy kill is not what the wolf is after. Now the wolf may want the dog gone because it either thinks the dog is preventing the easy kill or the dog is a competitor, but not because the dog is lunch. And why would the lone wolf take the risk of trying to kill this dog while the easy prey animals escape? Doesn't seem very logical. More than likely the lone wolf, seeking easy prey, tries to catch the flock animal and the dog engages it. Now, either the wolf wins the fight or the dog does. If the wolves are in a pack, the situation is totally different, because the odds are not even anymore, they are more to the wolves' advantage. In this case they may actually target the dogs, get rid of their perceived competition. And, since they have superior numbers and they are fairly smart, it makes sense to do this. They will instinct fully use the same advantage used to overtake carcasses from bears, cougars, coyotes, bobcats and wolverines. That is why they run in packs, they are pack animals, because it's to their advantage. If they were solitary hunters we wouldn't have the problems that made us want to exterminate them. So, it just makes sense that these same wolves would act the same way towards another large perceived predator. I mean, sometimes LGD'sactually join the wolves (big problem with Pyrenees breeds)and become part of the problem they're supposed to prevent. FIREWOLFASSKISSER, you can't have it both ways. Hunting, working as a team, and fighting are different abilities. The wolf is built for hunting, not for fighting anything. It's social skills are it's most dangerous weapons, for with them they can overtake single animals that are vastly superior physically to themselves (bears, cougars, mastiff-type LGD's. They're just not built for 1 on 1 combat, they only do this when fighting each other for pack pecking order, border disputes, etc. Most of the time, it is not to the death, for they have no desire to die. That's the difference between wolves and fighting dogs. Fighting dogs don't have to stay healthy to catch their food, they only have 1 purpose, to kill in combat. Not as a team, by themselves. They have no reason to stop fighting, it is bred into them to do this, if they "cur" their bloodline gets terminated. They'll charge straight into a 1000 pound grizzly bear, only to be broken in half, and they're happy to do this. Besides, all of this has been done before. Read any book by Colby, Homan or Stratton about APBT and they will talk about fighting these dogs with wild animals. The Pit always wins against a wolf. How could they not?

Answer by JOE
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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you would do well to save your typing john,this guy is just a moron,all of this has been gone over and over.hes just one of those very stupid people that thinks a wolf is king.when it comes to the fight ring i know wolves are not even worth matching.go ahead and think i did something to you FIREDRAGON I WAS MERELY STATING THE FACTS.YOU SEE YOU ARE WHAT THE LAW CALLS A ''EGGSHELL COMPLAINET'' DURING THESE FLAMEWARS THESE THINGS HAPPEN OFTEN.IF NO ONE KNOWS THE OTHER PEOPLE,THEN ITS NOT REASONABLE THAT ANYONE WOULD TRAVEL[TO WHERE?]TO FIND YOU.SURE IF ONE OF THESE GUYS HAD KNOWN YOUR REAL NAME AND ADDRESS IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE.SO YOU WANT TO KEEP IT UP GO ON.YOU JUST WANT TO HAVE SOMEONE ON YOUR CASE.WELL YOU DO NOT BOTHER ME.I WAS JUST MAKING THE FACTS KNOWN.I KNOW THESE GUYS WERE JUST HAVING FUN AND NOT A ONE OF THEM REALLY THOUGHT YOU WOULD BE STUPID ENOUGH TO FIGHT A BONE CRUSHING PIT BULL OR A HUGE POWERFUL AMERICAN BULL.BUT IF YOU HAD AGREED TO IT.AND SET IT UP LEGAL WITH LAWYERS AND SUCH.AND ENTRIED INTO IT OF YOUR OWN FREEWILL.OR EVEN FOUGHT A HUMAN IN THE FIGHT RING.AFTER ALL PEOPLE FIGHT FOR MONEY ALL THE TIME AND THAT WAS A VAILD REQUEST THAT YOU CHOOSE TO DECLINE,IT WOULD HAVE DEPENDED ON YOU AGREEING NEVER THE LESS.YOU KNOW I KNEW YOU WOULD NEVER FIGHT ANYTHING AND THESE GUYS KNEW IT TOO.WHERE I LIVE A BOXER HAS A BOXING RING AND THE LOCAL BOYS OFTEN USE IT TO SETTLE DIFFERANCES,SOMETIMES WITH GLOVES SOMETIMES WITHOUT.THEY SIGN A RELEASE AT WHAT HAPPENS IS TO BAD.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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Joe says, "when it comes to the fight ring i know wolves are not even worth matching.go ahead and think i did something to you FIREDRAGON I WAS MERELY STATING THE FACTS" Guard dogs for sheep and animals only alert herders of wolves, they can't stop them! "Jackson applauded the efforts of the two shepherds and five guard dogs. "They�re really good guard dogs. When the wolves howl, the dogs bark. When the wolves actually come in, the dogs� barks change. All we�ve had to do so far is get our flashlights out and walk around. The human presence, so far, has been enough to deter the wolves." http://www.mtexpress.com/2000/06-28-00/6-28wolf.htm Russia also has a very bad wolf problem and the dogs certainly don't help so they must be hunted!!! "However, in Russia, wolves are far from endangered and so conservationists have a much harder case to make against the killing of wolves. Unfortunately, a government controlled program for killing wolves would be quite expensive, so the legalized slaughtering of the animals is an acceptable substitute for the Russian government. Also, wolf pelts are economically useful as well as the other parts of the animal. Also, the wolf is seen as an evil animal by most stereotypes - from Russian folklore to fairy tales such as "Little Red Riding Hood" (9)."The Russian government offers a bounty to anyone who kills a wolf outside of a nature preserve in the country http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web3/rochelle3.html DOGS IN RUSSIA KILL WOLVES THROUGH POISON...THIS IS THE MAIN WAY THEY ARE USED!! "Cruelly enough, the form of poison baiting most often used is for the hunter to lead a live dog out into the woods, cut the dog open, injecting poison into the dog's wounds and leaving it to die hoping that the smell of fresh blood will attract the wolves (10)." http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web3/rochelle3.html DUDE, YOU ARE VERY NAIVE TO THINK THE RUSSIANS DO IT BETTER!!! A History of Wolves in Russia By: Evgeni Okhtin, Chief of the Russian Independent Research Group "Unfortunately, the reaction to this increase in the wolf population was ultimate 'hatred' for the wolf. The people were starving and the wolf took away the people's food, their livestock, and their wild game. Hunting was considered a part of the state food program. The wolf took the food resources and thus the wolf became an 'enemy' of the state." http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/wolf_russia_history.html THE RUSSIANS HAVE MUCH WORSE WOLF PROBLEMS THAN WE DO AND KILL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF WOLVES EACH YEAR!!!

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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Joe, your geography is weak. Part of Russia IS in Asia, part is in Europe. Kyrgyz Republic in the Russian Federation shares the mountains. Akayev: Kyrgyzstan is Russia's faithful ally While opening a Russian air force base in Kant on Thursday, President of Kyrgyzstan Askar Akayev announced that his country saw itself as a reliable source of political support for Russia in the region. http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2003/10/23/50714.html Kyrgyzstan was annexed by the Russian Empire in 1864; it achieved independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. Under the USSR, it became a Soviet Socialist Republic in 1937 with the full name of Kirghiz Soviet Socialist Republic, commonly referred to as Kirghizia or Kirghiz SSR. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyzstan The article about the wolves in Russia is about the wolves in the mountains in Kyrgyzstan. I don�t want to seem impolite, but you should know that this country was a Republic of Russia!! It�s amazing. You are always wrong. Russia is used in context there, but the fact is that the people in this part of the world have terrible problems with wolves. Dogs don�t help except when they are slaughtered, stuffed with poison, and left for wolves to eat. THE WOLVES CONTROL EVERYTHING AND EVEN KILL THE GUARD DOGS At one time, the wolves could be controlled because the dogs would alert the herders and the herders would shoot the wolves. Without the herders protecting the dogs, the dogs would of course be killed� Wolves Terrorize Northern Kyrgyzstan �A pack of wolves that turned up in Northern Kyrgyzstan has struck horror across the republic's Tyupsky district by slaughtering 128 sheep all in one night. According to the press service of the Kyrgyz emergencies ministry, the attack on the sheep -- which took place high in the mountains on the night of November 4 -- rates as the gravest pasture emergency in years. District authorities have set up several hunting detachments to track down the wolves. The emergencies ministry links the country's increasing number of wolves in the recent years to the fact that local shepherds are not allowed to carry weapons while on duty.� http://english.pravda.ru/cis/2001/11/05/20103.html Top: Regional: Asia: Kyrgyzstan: Recreation and Sports (8) �Wrestling on Horseback for a Goat�s Carcass � �Ulak tartysh� or �kok-bory� mean �grey wolf�. Apparently, the original game came historically developed in antiquity when herds of cattle grazed in the steppes and mountains all year round, exposed to possible attacks by wolves. Having no firearms, THE SHEPHERDS COULD NOT DEAL WITH WOLVES. Brave djigits (horse riders) chased after the wolves until the beasts of prey fell, then they began beating them with sticks and lashes, trying to snatch them away from each other. Later on when the people led a more settled life �kok-bory� was replaced by �ulak-tartysh�. There are two teams, consisting of an equal number of riders. The playing ground is 300 meters long and 150 meters wide. The opposite sides of this area, marked with flags, present symbolically �the gates.� In the center of the playing ground a carcass of a goat, weighing on an average of 30�40 kilograms, is placed. One game is 15 minutes long. The objective of the game is to seize the goat�s carcass and deliver it into the gates of the contesting team. The players are allowed to pick up the carcass from any place within the limits of the field, take it from their rivals, pass or fling it over to the partners, carry it pressed to the horse�s side or suspended between the horse�s legs.� http://open-site.org/Regional/Asia/Kyrgyzstan/Recreation_and_Sports/ �Attack increase �In Soviet times, 2,000 used to be the population, when there were also more shepherds to keep numbers down. A fund has been set up to encourage the cull In addition, fewer farmers have rifles these days. Many weapons were confiscated after violence in the country's south in the early 1990s. The search for food over the winter can drive wolves closer to human settlement. But, officials say, attacks on people and domestic animals have increased overall, almost doubling in the past nine months. One man died after being bitten. Taking measures So far this year, 150 wolves have been killed by hunters. Now a special fund has been set up to pay anyone doing so. Wolf pelts will be made into coats and hats, and, Mr Kuchokov says, proceeds from their sale will finance the fund. The state will also pay for a mass cull. For rural Kyrgyz, their livestock is their livelihood. Every animal lost to a wolf makes the struggle to survive even harder. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1852865.stm WOLVES WERE GONE FROM MOST OF EUROPE; NOW THAT CONSERVATIONALISTS HAVE REINTRODUCED THEM, ONLY GUNS CAN CONTROL THEM, NOT DOGS! Howls of protest as wolves roam again Wolves are breeding so successfully they face controls �Wolves have made such a successful return to the French Alps that they could now be culled. Farmers say they are losing so many sheep to the wolf packs that they want permission to shoot them, a conference has heard.� http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1100646.stm

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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I have just read this whole page. I have wondered if any dog could take on a wolf. I love dogs and wolves because they are both such wonderful animals. I myself own a cockerspaniel who has it stuck in his head he can take on a pit. I'm always worried for his safety the little dumbass. Anyway the first time the pitbull bit on to his ear and wouldn't let go, no serious damage done. The owner came out and told the pit to let go. The second time all I saw was my little cocker running as fast as his little legs could carry him and into the house. Then around the corner came the pit. Well now we know who is faster.He still hates and tries to attack pits though. Now until about two months ago I had never seen a wolf up close. I was at the vet with my cocker and about to enter the exam room when around the corner a wolf stood next to one of the vets. I gasped, it was huge and just staring at my dog and I. It's head was massive and it had these long slender legs. There was no mistaking it. For once in my little cockers life he knew better than to mess with it. I scooped up my dog into my arms. The vet then turned and looked at me and said don't worry he won't hurt you he's tame. I wasn't so sure so I went in the exam room and shut the door. I have seen lots of pits and they never struck fear into me like the wolf did. I've almost been bitten by a pit on the arm but I moved my arm and he got a mouthful of the chair I was in. I have done lots of research on wolves and find them very amazimg in many ways. You will never see a fight between a pit and a wild wolf. The only way would be if you lived near wolves somewhere. The alpha male would even seek out to kill your pit if you lived too close to his pack. This is a wolf with a lot of fighting experience under his belt. The poor dog would have no chance. It would be cruel to even put a pit in a situation like that, he might even end up as dinner if the wolves are starved or sick. I've seen one picture of a dog that survived a wolf attack. The dog was smart and got away but on his rear the wolf had grabbed on and taken out a large piece of the dogs back muscle. The wolf is a wild animal, not a dog. It's not even logical to think the pit would even have a chance. I will not argue with anyone though because after reading this it is obvious to me that the pitbull lovers don't know what they are talking about and will say anything. I'm sure you will all come up with some lame insults now. Good day!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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Carnivore Diet Wolves eat meat almost exclusively. In the wild, some observers have seen them eat small birds or mice, but they prefer larger prey such as goats, sheep, or deer. Wolves work as a team to attack herds of these large animals. They often go after the old, young, or sick, since they are easier to kill. Many times it is feast or famine for wolves. When they find food, they eat as much as they can, because they may go for many days before eating again. Wolves can kill their prey effectively because they have incredibly strong jaws, which can bite through even the toughest of animal hides. They can even break hard bones in just a few bites. Wolves at the San Diego Zoo are fed a special ground meat for carnivores, as well as large bones to chew on.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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Wolves, like all canids, have 42 teeth: 20 in the upper jaw and 22 in the lower jaw. A wolf's "fangs" or canine teeth can be up to 6.25 centimeters (2.5 inches) long. These long, sharp, slightly curved teeth allow a wolf to grip onto its prey tightly until it is brought down. The upper jaw of a wolf has six incisors, two canine teeth, eight premolars and four molars. The lower jaw has six incisors, two canine teeth, eight premolars and six molars. The incisors are located at the front of the jaw and are used to cut flesh from prey. Premolars and molars are used to slice and grind food. A wolf's survival often depends on silent, fast motion. Therefore, wolves run on only their toes, with the back parts of the feet raised off the ground. (Digitigrade movement) This method of movement, also used by cats, enables an animal to move faster and more quietly than animals that use the more primitive plantigrade movement, where the feet are placed flat on the ground with every step. Primates (including humans) and bears move this way.

Answer by Mark M
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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Hi all, The topic is so long that I quit reading all the posts. I am a Police Dog Handler/Trainer and have seen several bite pressure numbers in professional publications. First, I have no idea about the wolves. Off the top of my head the measured averages were: German Shepherd Dog 650 psi Pit Bull/Rotweiler 950 psi Belgian Malinois 1100 psi (a police dog breed) The PSI has LITTLE to do with the ultimate damage inflicted, which is largely a function of the thrashing/tearing the dog does after latching on. This is where the Pit "excels" at inflicting damage. I have been involved in Karate and can tell you that it measuring PSI force is not difficult, nor does it require technology that is cost prohibitive. I have probably caught 4,000-5,00 bites from GSD'sand Malinois and can tell you that the numbers from those two breeds seems very accurate. I have also seen damage inflicted by bites by all three breeds on humans (about 150 perhaps). The Malinois is the only breed that I have seen that actually has broken bones from bite pressure during a real bite. That also leads me to believe that the industry numbers I have seen are correct. Again, the PSI is not the major factor. I'd hope you all want to eliminate damage -- so socialize your dogs properly. If you have a pit, or other breed, your dog is capable of doing a lot of damage. Please be a responsible owner. Mark M

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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I certainly am not rich. Why do you think some aspects of my desires are so limited? I have worked in areas in which there were many opportunities. I started at an early age, as a child. I learn what is around me. I have met people that don't accept the truth ... they wince and turn their heads. I even have a relative this way ... when we were young, she was so smart .. but that's because intelligence was based upon handwriting and ... spelling. Now, she has ridiculous beliefs becasue she lacked science courses and often sees the world as a black box. I have learned to cut through the bull that cripples some. For example .. when I was a kid, I thought that these wolf guard dogs actually fought the wolves. They do sometimes and they get eaten. France killed its wolve a couple hundred years ago...but they have returned. I have traveled and also have friends all over the world. Kyrgyzstan has an interesting people... a cross between the East and West. But they have horrible wolf problems there and now that they can't maintain guns...the wolves are eating them and the livestock. There is much poverty and sometimes a few head of cattle or some sheep is all they have. I am NOT a fan of the wolf. I like dogs better because a dog is like a companion. It's amazing how they can work with a human and get the job done. AMAZING. As a team, we can do things that we could not do otherwise...but they are more valuable than just their training and price ... a hunter's job is to protect the dog. That's number one. The game is number two. I can always find game, but dogs take two years or more to replace. In some states, a bear license was only $20.00. In Canada, bears are about $150.00 but you can sell a polar bear hide for about $1400.00 The sole purpose of hunting is to control the animals. In some cases, as with wolves, there are so many of them, they must be poisoned. There's an additional Bow license of about $20.00. In Canada, you can hunt wolves for $20.00. They seem almost like a dog to me .. in a wild way ... so I don't hunt them. If you look for hunting and go to an outfitter, that same bear will run you about $3,000.00 Why have a guide when you can have a dog? Or you have GPS? I always know where I am at and I know where the kills are ... I know scat and I can track. We all lead the life we want. Someone mentioned ... excitement. Everyone can have it, they choose their life. If you want to learn and really focus, you can find ways of going on expeditions ... where you will be paid. Anyone can do it. People that work at Walmart want to do this, this is why they are there. When I was out on the ice, searching for bear ... this is what I chose. I also have another job to do that is ... demanding and interesting. There is nothing more important than knowledge. Have you ever seen how poor students study for tests? They go over and over what they already know ... and skip what they have not learned. Life takes discipline and if you want to survive, you must learn and be able to separate the crap from the stuff that will save you. I don't expect my animal to fight a bear for me. I have a hundred pound recurve for that .. not compound ... and also I have a great rifle, a bowie, and excellent insurance. People live in their houses and work in their workplaces and often neglect nature. Animals become too numerous and starve to death. Disease breaks out. There are too many trees in areas and so entire hillsides die because people don't want to cut their own Chritmas tree (the National Forrests will sell you a license to cut a MARKED tree for a couple dollars). I hear people talk about bambi .. when in the woods, you don't die of old age. You tie by fang, tooth, and claw. Or starvation and then a horrible death. Hunters offer a humane end and a good way to cycle the meat. We use dogs the way they were intended ... teamwork. Dogs are meant to complete the hunter. There are a lot of people that watch TV or read the newspaper .. not for the event, but for analysis and understanding. You must be able to understand what you read. When you read about an old woman in a wheel chair being attacked by several pit bulls and she fights them off...the press might say that the dogs had incredible jaws and were so viscious. Yet, to me ... a wolf biting an arm off or crushing your skull is more dramatic. That is real jaw power. I have taken classes in genetics and biology. Zoology and microbiology ... as well as the hard sciences. You can put it all together and think about ... how it fits. Dogs being immature wolves. Dogs rarely being killed in a dog fight. Dogs being weaker and less intelligent. Then you think about the wolf as being a killing machine. It is so efficient, it boggles my mind.

Answer by Joe
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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there is a site -which dog is best fight dog-it comes up on google.[for me anyway.] a guy KHAN IS FROM PAKISTAN.SAYS THEY MATCH DOGS ALL THE TIME.WOLF IS VERY POOR AT ONE ON ONE FIGHTING.HE GOES INTO MUCH DETAIL.MANY MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE ON THIS SITE.CLAIM WOLF JUST DOES'NT WIN IN PIT FIGHTS.SURE I KNOW THE WOLF CAN KILL TO EAT,I KNOW THE WOLF CAN HUNT.BUT IT JUST DOES NOT HAVE THE MENTAL MAKEUP TO PIT FIGHT.YOUR NOT GOING TO MAKE US THINK OTHERWISE.YOUR BULL ABOUT ALL THESE PIT CAN'T KILL AN OLD WOMAN IN A WHEELCHAIR IS CRAZY.THAT MANY PITS WOULD NOT GET ALONG TO ATTACK SOMEONE.YOU BASE SO MUCH ON THE NEWSPAPER.WELL IT DOES'NT MEAN CRAP.THE BEST PIT BULLS IN THE FIGHT GAME ARE NOT RUNNING AROUND LOOSE ATTACKING PEOPLE ANYWAY.SO IF YOU THINK THAT A WOLF CAN WIN IN THE PITS WHY DON'T YOU GET ONE?THE PIT BULL MEN OF THE SOUTH HAVE SOME VERY GOOD DOGS AND IF YOU ARE SO POSITIVE,YOU SIR FIREDRAGON COULD EASY BE A RICH MAN.THINK ABOUT IT THEY DO BET FOR 50 GRAND A FIGHT IN THE BIG LEAGE.SO IF I WAS SO SURE I COULD BEST THESE HIGHROLLERS WITH A WOLF I SURE WOULD DO IT.ITS NOT EASY TO TAKE THESE TOP RANKED PIT BULLS WITH ANYTHING.DO NOT THINK THESE GUYS WOULD NOT WELCOME YOU,YOUR WOLF AND MONEY.YOU KNOW IF YOU GO TO THE SITE I TOLD OF MEYBE THERES A DOG FIGHTER THERE THAT KNOWS OF THIS BEING TRIED ALREADY.JUST RUN DOWN THE POSTS THERES MUCH THERE.[YEAH I KNOW YOU WILL SAY A WOLF CAN'T BE CONTROLLED NOT SO. RAISED FROM PUP THEY ARE FAIRLY TAME.JUST HAVE TO WATCH THEM AROUND CHILDREN AND STRANGERS.NO WORSE THAN SOME DOGS.]

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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Baisil Nail....I met someone once that told me they had a killer Pomeranian. It killed all dogs it fought, including pits and Tosas. In 2001, no one would put a dog against it and so they put the Pomeranian against an adult lion weighing 490 pounds. They placed bets, and met the million dollar challenge. The Pomeranian easily won. NOW DOES ANYONE BELIEVE THAT? I don't think so. My friend was in a hosptial at the time...had a nervous breakdown. I thought the story was a joke, but ... it wasn't. At any rate, I thought your story about the pit beating the wolf was a story. It is a little sad ... that you were ... serious. Because it's not real. Mark M .... if you are a police dog handler, what does that have to do with pit bulls? The pit must latch on because it doesn't have enough power to break the bone. If you know of where a police dog broke a bone from biting, post it. Let me read it. The PSI figure is worthless without relative numbers. Snoopy, you know a lot. Good man, you state facts.... As for the dude rubbing "John's" back, bull! You didn't see a pit bull fighting a wolf. You are a liar! No one would bet on this. No one. I have had the unfortunate experience of knowing people that have fighters...low lifes. They will not fight a dog that is five pounds bigger than their dog. Now maybe a family pet ... but not a good dog. They certainly wouldn't bet against a wolf. You are the same person telling the same lies, and you have NO IDEA what dog fighting is about. No one does it for the animal ... they do it for the money. It isn't the toughest dog that matters...you can bet on either dog. The dog performs some entertainment and because it grips .. it can stall and not work. The rules call for breaking them up after no more than 2 minutes. Medical studies show that dogs only do soft tissue damage, except on very small children. That's a fact. You can call the emergency room ... most doctors know this. As for you calling the State Police, post the name of the person you spoke to and their number .. where you mailed the copy of the posts. I want to talk to him. You lie so much that no one that reads your posts can believe you. I don't know if it's because you are insane ... it is not rational to lie when you certainly aren't believed and your lies are ... really stupid ones. You make such huge mistakes.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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I'm very sorry but a pit would stand no chance against a wild timber or artic wolf. Wolves are very experienced in fighting they do it all the time defending their territory. Your info is not correct. Your just wrong. SORRY TRY AGAIN! Wolves kill on a daily basis, their survival depends on it. The pit bull most likely wouldn't be able to even touch the wolf before the wolf killed it. In a dog fight match the wolf would be frightened and skiddish. It would be trying to escape, not fight. Let's not forget, if you live near wolves fish and game will tell you to keep your dogs somewhere safe no matter what the breed. Wolves will even eat dogs. You really need to get a grip on reality. Watch some wolves in action sometime, you won't even believe your eyes.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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I'm very sorry but a pit would stand no chance against a wild timber or artic wolf. Wolves are very experienced in fighting they do it all the time defending their territory. Your info is not correct. Your just wrong. SORRY TRY AGAIN! Wolves kill on a daily basis, their survival depends on it. The pit bull most likely wouldn't be able to even touch the wolf before the wolf killed it. In a dog fight match the wolf would be frightened and skiddish. It would be trying to escape, not fight. Let's not forget, if you live near wolves fish and game will tell you to keep your dogs somewhere safe no matter what the breed. Wolves will even eat dogs. You really need to get a grip on reality. Watch some wolves in action sometime, you won't even believe your eyes.You are also wrong about the length of wolf fangs, they have the longest fangs. I went to a museum they other day and looked at the skulls of pits and wolves myself.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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JOHN AND HIS MANY SCREEN NAMES LIE. He lies and contradicts himself constantly. For example, in reference to wolves being killed by dogs, John says, "I lived in Kyrgyzstan for a year building Manas AB in 2002, and I saw these dogs, and I saw dead wolves. It happens all the time. With more and more wolves now threatening livestock in Montana, Idaho, etc, ranchers in the states are now trying to import these breeds from Central Asia." Later, when I post some sources about Russia, he demonstrates his misunderstanding from the Internet of the location to Kyrgyzstan ... the Internet says it's Central Asia and he does not realize that Russia is also part of Asia and so is Kyrgyzstan. John says, "Get a map out, FIREFAG, I don't know anything about Russian herding.....I never mentioned Russia. Get your geography straight. I'm talking about Central Asia, about Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, specifically" Yea, Yea, Yea. Kyrgyzstan IS A PART OF THE FEDERATION OF RUSSIA! ALL citizens there must SPEAK RUSSIAN !!! They learn this in their schools. The Russian military is everywhere. It's now the Kyrgyz Republic, part of the Russian Federation, but when it was Kyrgyzstan, it was like Texas to the US. In May, Kyrgyzstan celebrates Russian culture and influence. They also have dance festivals, much of which are Russian. Everyone there knows this. You say you lived there ... several years and saw ... dogs killing wolves ... one on one ... all the time? Sir, you are a liar. A big liar. Now, change your screen name and retire John. You are disgraced!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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It was an exibit about skulls all kinds of skulls. They even had a poodle. Wolves go off on their own or in pairs quite often. I just watched two documentries last night. This just shows me you still don't know what you're talking about. Sheep herders in spain have a huge mastiff type dog they use to protect their sheep from wild dogs and wolves. They have to fit these dogs with metal collars with metal spikes. The wolf is so quick to rip out any breed of dogs throat it's their only chance with the collars. In reality the wolves had been helping the farmers by killing most of the wild dogs. Wolves only hunt in a pack when they are hunting huge game. Why don't you go rent national geographic's documentry on the wolves of yellowstone. A single wolf runs and grabs a moose in a full gallop and brings it down single handly. Then the other wolves finally catch up and help finish the job. No pitbull could do that. You can also watch the one about the artic wolves, they bring down musk oxen. By the the way, the museum I went to is called the Sanfrancisco Hall Of Science. They have a website. I don't think they show all the skulls though because there's too many, you would have to go there. My personal favorite was the elephant skull. I used the name Snoopy because I didn't want to use my own. Snoopy is the character print on my babies baby bed, works for me. Oh, I'm a she not a he. I am right you are wrong. At this point I think I'm wasting my time. You are not doing your part on research. If you did you would see that I was right. Everyone else in the world knows you're full of crap so why do I bother. My cousin is A zoologist and she knows you're full of it too.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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The Gros Ventre pack killed 1 calf and wounded another and killed 3 dogs. Apparently the pack killed the calf and left the area after having fed on it. When the pack returned they caught the producer�s dogs near the carcass and killed two dogs (Rhodesian leopard hounds). This was the second time wolves (the Teton pack killed a dog earlier in the year) killed his dogs. The Gros Ventre returned and killed a third dog. WS has captured the alpha female, a radio collared female, and an older female. The older female and radio-collared female were euthanized. The alpha female was radio-collared and released on site. Wolves attacked another dog near the ranch house on the Diamond G Ranch but did not kill it. The dogs (Great Pyrenees) were being let out prior to being put in their kennel for the night and the attack happened within a few yards of the managers wife. The wolves killed a neighbor�s dog (Rottweiler) in their front yard a couple of nights later. The ranch manager will be issued some non-lethal ammunition after he has been trained in how to use it. The shotgun shells contain a lead filled bean bag that is designed to provide some negative reinforcement and condition them to stay away from the ranch house. We greatly appreciate the efforts of the ranch manager. WS will trap in the area beginning next week to try and trap and relocate an uncollared wolf from the area.

Answer by Mark M
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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Firedragons, To answer your questions: 1. I have personally reviewed two dog bites from other handlers at my department where Malinois have broken bones. There isn't a "media" link for you. Nor am I about to invite you (along with civil attorneys) into my office to review the cases -- or post official documents and photos on line. You can take my word for it or you dont have to. Outside of the two that I have personally seen there are certainly others in the industry that have had the same experience. While hearing of plenty, I have not seen the others with my own eyes. 2. What does a PSD handler/trainer have to do with Pit Bulls? Unfortunatley, our paths do cross. There are some agencies that do use Rotts, which I have had the pleasure to get a first hand feel for bite strength. In my "ignorance" I usually pair up that breed with Pits. I have never caught a bite from a Pit. However, I have been involved in several cases of human bites that Pits have done. This includes one where two pits killed a small child. I would estimate that outside of the fatality that I have seen 20 humans that have been bitten by Pits. I also have been involved in a program that teaches several hundred officers about Pits and other breeds, in which PSI bite pressure is discussed. My department has been involved in the shooting of approximately 25 aggressive Pit Bulls in the past two years. These incidents certainly have necesitated some research and understanding of the breed. Finally, I instruct a dog safety education program that sees approximately 4,000 people a year. The entire program has to do with the issues you are discussing here. My research, contacts, instruction, and personal experience all have significantly touched on the breed that you are discussing. Hope that answers your questions. For everyone else I have nothing against a properly socialized Pit Bull. For those that are attracted to this forum because of the "wow" factor of having a really tough/mean dog please think about how you socialize and care for your dog. I've seen a lot of people live to regret the havoc that their poorly trained dog ultimately causes -- usually on children or relatives. Mark

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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Hey, Snoopy ... you can see the concern in America about Pit Bull people ... sometimes, there seems to be something wrong in their heads. You are doing a good job and ... the important thing is that many read this that don't comment. I think you are very instructive to them. These guys have NO support or documentation and the documentation they offer is often a lie. For example, the People Magazine article or the guy saying he lived in Russia. It's like me saying I lived in San Antonio, Texas and never heard of hispanics, Mexican food, or TEXAS. Hunters know to find wolf tracks amid scat with bones .. the wolves actually devour the ENTIRE animal almost, bones and all in some cases. With dogs, you find cereal. As I have shown, a pit bull has NEVER been able to kill a HEALTHY adult. In fact, poodles have killed pits and several pit bulls have not had the ability to kill even an elderly woman in a wheel chair. I have presented medical authorities that have dismissed an attack by a dog of bovines because of the massive wounds ... crushed skulls, broken and severed legs. Wolves literally tear the carcass up, whereas dogs do damage to soft tissue. The pit bull might rip and ear off and tear the scalp...a pit bull crushes the skull. I have presented evidence from US Wildlife and Fisheries. They have discussed predation, how guard dogs work in flocks and herds ... and it certainly isn't by fighting the wolves. There ARE sites that talk about herding dogs that work by "fighting off wolves" but these people generally sell the dogs or are ignorant of animals, such as Joe and John. The actual evidence shows that the dogs won't work unless the herder is there to shoot the wolves. As you have stated Snoopy, I cited references that said the major cause of death in wolf populations is fighting among themselves. They fight for the right to eat and in what order .. this "line of ascention" lasts until a wolf challenges their place in line. They fight for the right to mate. They fight for the right to be in the pack. If they fail and fall, they will often be eaten. This is natural selection. Do you think that the "breeding" of pits can compare to this when the dog was a mutation of a wolf that was weak like a child wolf? I don't think so. As Snoopy and Neal have said, Artic wolves can be especially dangerous because they are so large and they often eat the entire animal (as cited, the dog leave soft tissue damage, the wolf breaks the bones and scatters the animal in pieces. The Artic wolf is even more likely to do this). The liars that say they have seen wolves fighting pits ... are full of themselves. I have cited places where dog fighting is legal (Japan) as well as numbers to call. The pit bull has NEVER qualified for a championship tournament that might contain 500 Tosa fighting dogs. It simply does not have the strength. The runt Tosa might be small enough for the largest pits, but the pits still can't stand up. There have been liars here talking about the "grabbing and shaking" as though it is somehow more awesome than a lion's bite. The Wildlife people say that a wolf can bite through a moose femur in a few bits ... which do you think is stronger, a dog that hangs on to the leg but never does damage other than soft tissue, or the animal that bites the leg off? Or the lion that doesn't "shake" the arm but takes it off with a snap? A wolf can bite you arm off in a similar manner. While the pit is grabbing and shaking someone's head, the scalp can peel ... like the elderly woman cited on this forum; however, a wolf would have crushed her skull, resulting in death. Wolves have killed thousands of humans and were so feared in Europe and the Americas that they were almost killed off. Right now, there is a similar concern and in some areas, "bounties" for wolf pelts are being offered.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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Like all large carnivores, wolves have strong jaws and teeth. Like humans, wolves possess incisors, canine teeth, premolars and molars. A wolf's jaw, akin with other canines, is armed with 42 teeth. The small incisors are used for nibbling, such as cleaning the meat off bones. The purpose of the wolf's long, pointed, and very strong canine teeth is to capture and hold prey. Wolves use their teeth as sort of a vise, and also, to tear food apart. The grinding molars at the back of a wolf's mouth, called carnassial teeth, are used to chew food up. It is estimated that a wolf's jaw can exert more than 1500 pounds of pressure per square inch. It's easy to see how a wolf is capable of breaking the femur of an adult moose. "The power of a wolf's bite is incredible," says David Mech. He recounts watching wolves on the run leap at the rump of an adult moose and rip it open, even though this meant tearing through four inches of finely packed hair and a thick hide. He notes that wolves also hook their fangs into the rubbery nose of a moose and "can cling there despite the swinging head of the moose, which may even raise the wolf off the ground." Wolves strong teeth and jaws are connected to strong skulls which are large, long, and taper forward, averaging nine to eleven inches long and five to six inches wide. Mech notes that the "volume of the brain case is 150 to 170 cm3, which is at least 30 cm3 greater than that of most dogs

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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The rules of dog fighting have already been cited here. Only an idiot and coward would fight a dog. Pits generally weighed about 40 pounds. "If a match were made to be fought at "38 lbs give or take a pound", a dog coming to the pit so much as a few ounces over 39 lbs would be disqualified and forfeit the stakes" http://www.staffordmall.com/stoutheart-westminsterpit.htm "Not many prosecutors are savvy to the evidence that points to organized dogfighting, say officials with the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS). Last month, HSUS experts came to Gretna to educate animal control officers, police and prosecutors about dogfighting, an activity with formative ties to Louisiana. Organized dogfights follow regulations called "Cajun rules," so named because they were written by Lafayette police chief and dogfighter Gaboon Trahan in the 1950s. Among other regulations, Cajun rules specify the protocol to follow if police arrive and break up a fight. "It's built right into the rules," HSUS animal fighting expert Eric Sakach told 80-plus officers at the workshop. "They've already banked on you guys being here." http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2003-07-15/commentary.html http://pitbullstuff.safeshopper.com/4/132.htm?87 The weight of the dogs in the fight must be agreed upon. Rule 3: Referee to see the dogs weighed at time agreed on and if either dog is over top weight agreed on he loses the forfeit money.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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That's not going to happen. He doesn't bite me and I've had him for almost four years. I've read about another handler who had a problem like that and decided to keep the dog. The dog was much bigger than mine and he said he was just very careful when other people were around. He, like me knew the dog so well it never bit him. My dog is very smart, I even tought him to find hidden clothes or anything really. He even found my keys I had dropped on a jogging trail in some tall grass. I just tell him to search for whatever I have hidden. I even taught him to open and close doors. He even knows every cheesy dog trick I could think of. He just has the one down side. Wouldn't it be a little harsh to just put him to sleep. Or a waste?

Answer by Firedragons3
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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Haha! I respect Snoopy. She has stepped in and provided information. Not a bunch of lies, but sources that are good and information that is logical. All you can do is provide myths and insults! Haha! I have no respect for losers and therefore, I really don't care too much about what you say. I have known many dog owners in my life. Recently, I had an experience where a rental house I had inherited had been taken over by a man with three pit bulls. It was a small town and the police chief was suspicious ... after running a check on the guy, he found out that he had just gotten out of prison. They suspected he was selling drugs and fighting dogs. Needless to say, the police reaction to this guy reinforced my viewpoint of low life pit owners. There are a lot of great dogs in this world. Why would anyone want to own one that has such a questionable lineage? At any rate, as long as they HOUSE the animals properly and keep them away from kids, I have no problem! They also need to be exercised properly. INITIATIVE 656 I, Ralph Munro, Secretary of State of the State of Washington and custodian of its seal, hereby certify that, according to the records on file in my office, the attached copy of Initiative Measure No. 656 to the People is a true and correct copy as it was received by this office. AN ACT Relating to pit bull dogs; amending RCW 16.08.070 and 16.08.090; and adding a new section to chapter 16.08 RCW. BE IT ENACTED BY THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON: Sec. 1. RCW 16.08.070 and 1987 c 94 s 1 are each amended to read as follows: Unless the context clearly requires otherwise, the definitions in this section apply throughout RCW 16.08.070 through 16.08.100 {+ and section 3 of this act +}. (1) "Potentially dangerous dog" means any dog that when unprovoked: (a) Inflicts bites on a human or a domestic animal either on public or private property, or (b) chases or approaches a person upon the streets, sidewalks, or any public grounds in a menacing fashion or apparent attitude of attack, or any dog with a known propensity, tendency, or disposition to attack unprovoked, to cause injury, or to cause injury or otherwise to threaten the safety of humans or domestic animals. {+ "Potentially dangerous dog" includes all pit bull dogs. +} (2) {+ "Pit bull dog" means any dog over the age of six months known by the owner to be a pit bull terrier. Pit bull terrier means any bull terrier, American pit bull terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, or American Staffordshire terrier breed of dog or any mixed breed of dog that contains as an element of its breeding, the breed of bull terrier, American pit bull terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, or American Staffordshire terrier so as to be identifiable as partially of the breed bull terrier, American pit bull terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, or American Staffordshire terrier. (3) +} "Dangerous dog" means any dog that according to the records of the appropriate authority, (a) has inflicted severe injury on a human being without provocation on public or private property, (b) has killed a domestic animal without provocation while off the owner's property, or (c) has been previously found to be potentially dangerous, the owner having received notice of such and the dog again aggressively bites, attacks, or endangers the safety of humans or domestic animals. (({- (3) -})) {+ (4) +} "Severe injury" means any physical injury that results in broken bones or disfiguring lacerations requiring multiple sutures or cosmetic surgery. (({- (4) -})) {+ (5) +} "Proper enclosure of a dangerous dog" means, while on the owner's property, a dangerous dog shall be securely confined indoors or in a securely enclosed and locked pen or structure, suitable to prevent the entry of young children and designed to prevent the animal from escaping. Such pen or structure shall have secure sides and a secure top, and shall also provide protection from the elements for the dog. (({- (5) -})) {+ (6) "Proper enclosure of a licensed pit bull dog" means, while on the owner's property, secure confinement indoors or in a securely enclosed and locked pen, kennel, or structure, except when leashed and muzzled. The pen, kennel, or structure shall have secure sides and a secure top attached to the sides to prevent the animal from escaping. Any pen, kennel, or structure used to confine licensed pit bull dogs shall be locked with a key or combination lock when occupied by such animals. The pen, kennel, or structure shall have a secure bottom or floor attached to the sides of the pen or the sides of the pen must be embedded in the ground no less than two feet. Any pen, kennel, or structure erected to house pit bull dogs shall comply with all zoning and building regulations of the local jurisdiction. Any pen, kennel, or structure shall be adequately lighted and ventilated and kept in a clean and sanitary condition. No licensed pit bull dog shall be kept on a porch, patio, or in any part of a house or structure when the windows are open or when screen windows or screen doors are the only obstacle preventing the dog from exiting the structure. http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/billinfo/1997-98/initiatives/650-674/initiative_656_011996.txt

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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Hi Snoopy.... Fear Aggressive dogs are marked by nervousness. You can probably identify the symptoms. Your dog is probably fear aggressive (like the pit bull owners). Jean Donaldson has a book called, "Dogs are from Neptune" or something like that. C.W. Meisterfeld, Ph.D. is a great one also to read. He is cited in the famous Presa Canario case in SF. He wrote a book called "Jelly Bean v Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde." You might check them out at the local library. When you get a new dog, especially the tough ones, a kind of hell breaks out with hunting dogs. The order of dominance must be played out and it's a pain. The larger the cult, the bigger the problem. Dogs eventually work it out. With family pets, your CS might be new and is actually competing with you!!! If there are two or more dogs in the family, your CS might be trying to establish hierarchy ...unfortunately, this occurs there is a change in the life of the dog and its home ...maybe you have moved, it doesn't have to be a new dog. Someone moving out of the house, especially if the person is on the pack list can cause problems because the hierarchy just changed. Maybe you have a new work schedule. Luckily your dog is small. It's really impossible to give advice because I don't know the environment or situation. I can only say that these are the primary factors. Some big problems that occur with dogs and humans is ... an exaggerated dominance. This means more aggression. Pit bull owners, often when they get their pits, are dangerous because they drag them along with a huge chain and let them pull against everyone they meet. The pit bull owner thinks that by threatening people and humiliating them (take a look at the behavior of the pit bull people here), they can obtain a higher position of dominance. Humans are guilty too. In this case, family members can be seen as dogs ... this is not always good, as people presume. With some dogs, they are leaders and natural born ... power dogs. These make great hunting dogs, but it's essential to ... harness their aggression and turn it into a will to serve. This involves a lot of effort on the owner's part and means the dog must be trained properly. This training is so intense that most state hunting laws prohibit dog training in the wild during some parts of the season!! I can only say, if this is the case, you will have problems with an older dog. YOU must be the LEADER, the ALPHA dog and your dog must feel he is SERVING you. Sometimes, dogs are spoiled. YOU MUST BE THE ALPHA. Don't move over to let your dog have room. Some dogs DEMAND to be played with and this really gets them out of hand. When I was young I made this mistake with my dad's dogs. Wow. They were big and powerful and would attack me if I moved even an inch during a period they expected to be petted .... Dogs are like people. You can take a good dog and make him bad by spoiling him. The code of the "Wild West" is true here. The code involved something like ...like in a John Wayne movie. One of these codes was to mind your own business, don't fight someone unless you were willing to kill them (stay out of fights); respect others and demand respect. Somewhere in there is right and wrong...the dog doesn't really have a moral drive, but he knows when he displeases you. This is his right and wrong. He can never be allowed to wrong you, to betray you, or to fail you. Most of the time, dogs are kind of passive and they are easy. The owner doesn't expect anything of him and ... the owner just feeds him. The owner will put up with misbehavior. However, if the dog is smart and spirited, he's like a child, except he's an adult. I often think of animal trainers and what they must cope with ... savage natures. The animal has a savage nature and if he ever realizes you can't kick his ass, you are gone. Coy Horn knew this. Anyway, that's my "dog philosophy."

Answer by macker
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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Wasn't the question What has more psi? In short, a wolf will inflict more damage on a person from bite wounds than a pit. Not because of a greater psi measure but because they have longer teeth and bite in a different manner. Pits have more psi at about 1500 if i can remember correctly. Wolves,wild dogs of africa and others don't normally kill their food before they eat it it's usually eaten alive so it dies from massive bleeding or it just passes out from the pain. Wolves have a tearing motion when they bite and use their weight to bring prey down, while a pit usually will bite down and hold on. wolves bite and release in order to inflict more damage on their prey. So in short, a pit has a stronger bite, but won't usually inflict more damage on a full grown adult. They both have different tools. And about winning in a fight, i think 9 out of 10 times it goes to a pit. But still i'veseen pits and tosas get a new one put into them by filas, presas, dogos and various mixed breeds many times.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/18/2004
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"The wolf is a powerful animal and may kill as many as 40 people in India in a given period" http://ambassadors.net/selectedstudy5.htm WOLVES KILL 40 TO 80 PEOPLE EVERY YEAR IN INDIA. Macker .. not exactly. The wolf doesn't just "bite" and release. It uses its teeth to "rip" flesh out. That's why the Saber Toothed Tiger had such long fangs ... it hunted large prey and would tear huge hunks of flesh. Dogs are not really strong enough to do this. The wolf can crush the skull of a moose. The pit bull, as has been stated many times, DOES NOT have more PSI than the wolf. The figures must be comparable. In other words ... when the wolf is rated at 550PSI, the most powerful dogs are rated at 200PSI or so. It's obvious the pit can bite as hard as the wolf. The longer teeth aren't the ones used for crushing bone ... the wolf crushes bones quickly. The pit generally can't even break the bone of a child. Macker, if you think the pit could win a fight with a wolf in one in fifty times, you are out of your mind. Dogs that would eat the pit for a snack are regularly killed by wolves. They are bigger, more powerful, and meaner ...they have stronger bites and survival has made them killing machines. No other predator is so extent. Wolves survive using their CLAWS, legs, and teeth. "They are twice as strong as a German Shepherds' jaw, exerting pressure as much as 1,500 lbs per square inch" The wolf bite can crush large leg bones in just a couple bites ... the dog cannot do this. Obviously, the wolf bites harder. MUCH harder. I haven't read too much of this, but wolves use their claws. I guess it hasn't been observed that much because wolf kill generally involves animals torn to pieces, but I have come upon wolf kill and seen claw marks. Deep ones. "It has been stated that the wolf possesses sharper vision, hearing, and smell than the domestic dog. Most wolf biologists agree that the most acute of the wolf senses is that of smell." http://www.wolfsource.org/anatomy.html The wolf can smell prey MORE THAN A MILE AWAY!!! It can sense animals several days after they have left. A wolf can hear natural sounds six miles away in the forrest and ten miles away in the clear. It was earlier believed that a wolf ran at only about 40 miles per hour ... but now it is known that they can run at 55 miles per hour. This makes them faster than any dog or faster than most animals. Mark does seem to know something about animals. His suggestion would be a good one in some circumstances. If you have a large dog that has a disposition problem, there is a limited amount you can do after two years. The professional thing to do is to put the dog down. I am like you, however, Snoopy. I would rather protect the public from the dog and ... since it really hasn't shown too much bad behavior ... you are OK. A CS is not dangerous except around children. You must never leave the animal with the child. The dog will definitely win this fight. Dogs show discomfort and temper changes when things happen...it's only a fraction of what a wild animal will show. The tiger that attacked Horn might have began his behavior because a woman was wearing something very strange to him. Walking on strange ground can make a wild animal savage, or simply a strange sound or behavior. Large dogs can be very dangerous if they have temper problems. So, they should be doubled fenced and a lock kept on the fence. The fence has to be buried as well or you can put flooring three feet out from the fence. The wolf is all over the world and seems to be the dominant predator....a pit could not live in the wild for long. They could maybe catch small children, birds and so on ... but they need a master. They don't have the strength to bring down large game, and they have been bred to fight other weak animals (dogs are mutated from the wolves and are very weak in comparison). The wolf has superior senses, strength, and fighting ability. They have better bites, they run faster and are more fierce than any dog. They are killing machines.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/18/2004
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SAM the sham says, "NONE OF YOU HAVE ANY HANDS ON EXPERIENCE.THAT PLAINLY SHINES THOUGH ABOVE ALL ELSE." What really shines through is that you know nothing. You have not contributed to the conversation. Texas and Dogman and so on .. made big mistakes. Wow. JOHN AND HIS MANY SCREEN NAMES LIE because he makes major mistakes...for example, saying he lived in Kyrgyzstan and confusing the location!!! Haha! Now he returns as SAM. It's true that many here...including Snoopy, Neal, babayaga, Skeptic was a little weak. It�s easy to compare the two animals, but you had good points. Fred had a great insight and started from zero � and ended up knowing more than pit owners!!! Richard had some good comments. Kowalski demonstrated that he probably knows some pit bull owners and � is apparently as dumbfounded by their stupidity and ability to believe the outrageous .. as I. Sorry matt_p11 � you lose. You said if wolves were such great fighters, we�d use them to fight in pits. How about lions Matt? They must not be good fighters either. How about Tigers and bears? You weren�t thinking very clearly here. Haha! You keep changing your screen name and saying all the bull crap. Here as drutigerman, you say, �did you not hear about the $1,000,000 fight? about 10 years ago? tosa vs pit.. pit killed the tosa..� RECENTLY IN NEW ORLEANS, ONE OF THE BIGGEST FIGHTING RINGS WAS BROKEN UP�THE POLICE ONLY FOUND $5,000.00 That�s it. The only $1,000,000 dollar prize in the world is in Japan and the champions are ALL Tosa. I have posted the numbers to call. This tells you that the pit doesn�t stand a chance against a Tosa. The bets aren�t made this way in the USA anyway. You can bet on the winning dog or the losing dog�.so, it doesn�t matter how tough, they make the same money in bets. tigercats12 claimed to have captured and trained wild wolves!! Haha! Loser! Liar!! You showed you knew little about dogs or wolves. Proposition? Give a break dude. You live in fantasy. youdont know had the right idea about bite force. Nickname tooks some exaggerations from a website and exaggerated more! Curs be Gone is another idiot. No one in the pit bull fighting business would fight his dog for money against a pit. They know the outcome already and the dog is just too big. You state circumstances and money that does not exist. If you really had a million to wager, I would go to Japan and introduce you to a fighting Tosa�your pit would be grass, just like the other pits that fought Tosa. Good thinking Mr Majik. And you are right, they aren�t listening to the facts. Hope you have been reading this � the wolf would OVERWHELM the pit and eat it. The wolf eats much larger dogs and much meaner ones than the pit! JustButtingIn forget it!! Oliver..NO WAY DUDE! Liar too! DRAG BITE ME PUSS .. no, pits don�t cost anywhere near many fighting dog costs and they don�t cost much to upkeep. Brian got the message right. Bigdog�oh, poor dude, born without a brain! Haha! Hey, Ken, good analogy!!! Everything, I was very impressed. You had some real in depth analysis and � right on!!! Q Why me? Yes, why indeed, your off somewhere in space. Bad reasoning dude. Kate�give me a break dude. Cite your sources guy. Hey runt�I agree .. the Presa Canario is a powerful beast, a kind of �super pit� that could eat any pit alive. You can see pit bulls being pulverized by Tosas at WWW.TOURYUKAI.COM. The Tosas also beat the presa canario and everything put before it. Yes, The Nameless One, you are right!!! Haha! Hatesstupidity said, �How about questions like, "Who do you think can bend raw iron easier, Superman or Spiderman?". That is the mentality of this question...� Haha! He must hate himself. There are questions like this on the college entrance exams � analogy and comparison. Spiderman and Superman don�t exist, but their strength can be compared by specification; however, comparing a wolf to a pit is unlike comparing to characters from literature. The wolf and pit can easily be compared from a medical standpoint, from attacks, from bite force, teeth, genetics�and on and on. The pit was measured to be weak and doesn�t compare.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/18/2004
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It is said that wolves howl at the moon. This is a misconception, as wolves howl for many reasons when they are most active, which is often at night, thus the correlation of howling at the moon was made. Wolves howl to greet one another, to indicate their location, to define their territorial boundaries, and to call the pack together. Wolves are endangered in the lower 48 states, and threatened in Minnesota. They can reach up to 45 mph in short sprints and can run 25 mph for several miles. Their normal trot is at about 5 mph. The wolf has 42 teeth. The wolf has extremely powerful jaws capable of generating 1,500 psi pressure. The mating season for the wolf occurs in February and March. The gestation period for the wolf is roughly 60 days. Wolf pups are usually born in April and May. The average litter size for the wolf is 4 to 7 pups. Wolves will attack intruders (animals, and other wolves) to protect their territory. The main threat to wolf populations is loss of habitat. Radio tracking wolves has been used in wildlife research since 1963. A wolf's canine teeth "interlock" so it can grip and hang on to struggling prey. The back teeth, or carnassial molars, are designed to crush bones and shear meat. The hair of the wolf is shed in the spring and summer and sheds out in sheets unlike most dogs. The wolf's sense of smell is more than 100 times greater than a human. The hierarchy in a wolf pack neutralizes aggression, reduces conflict and promotes social order. There are two hierarchies in a wolf pack, one for females and one for males. Change of rank in a wolf pack is more frequent in lower rank positions. Wolf pups, while low in hierarchy, have many privileges and social freedom. In the winter, the wolf's tail helps keep the face warm. Wolves breed only once a year; most dogs breed twice. Arctic tundra, taiga, plains, steppes, savannahs, hardwood and softwood forests were all originally inhabited by the wolf. A wolf may spend as much as a third of its time on the move. A wolf's front feet are larger than their back feet. Packs hunt in territories of up to 600 square miles. Pups emerge from the den at about one month of age. All members of a wolf pack take part in caring for the young. Wolves are active at all times of the day in winter. Ambushing is used by both single wolves and by packs. A wolf can consume almost twenty pounds of prey at a feeding. It is common for wolves to be moving eight to ten hours in a day.

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/18/2004
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Yes, Snoopy, Neal, babayaga all had good responses and could understand what they were reading. It seems that some others try to support an opinion that they can't support ... so they say they fought wolves and pits in their back yard and the pit won. That's like saying that you fought Mike Tyson and Pee Wee Herman in your back yard and Pee Wee won. Saying you have experience and that you saw it ... when obviously you know nothing about what you are talking about .... makes you seem a liar. The girl that talked about multiple wolves being killed by dogs ... then realizing "her" mistake because the wolf deaths are all recorded. Everyone on a farm or ranch knows about compensation ... and the state pays for disposal. Otherwise, who wants to dispose of multiple wolves weighing more than 100 pounds? Unless you want to skin them and eat them, you call the authorities. There would also be the question of rabies and other diseases. Most people with dogs want to find these answers and the state will tell you for free. There's little things such as this that tell you that ... the person does not have this experience. When someone says they have a pit, it puts them at the bottom of the social ladder. Even if they live in an area that allows pits, the fact is that the insurance companies won't insure the home!! So, these guys rent and don't tell the owner or they live in a dump that isn't worth insurance!! It's as simple as that. Pit owners are low class and stupid. The American Pit Bull Association gave Princess Anne her pits ... to demonstrate that the pit was a gentle dog. Nothing in its ancestry suggested mean treatment. They were the MODELS for pits ... and yet they killed Anne's little dog and attacked and mauled a child!!! Yes, pit bull owners are losers for sure.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/18/2004
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When the attack comes, the prey is usually seized by either the nose or the rump. Rarely, if ever, does a wolf hamstring a prey animal. This is one of the oldest and most pervasive false beliefs held about wolves. As late as 1980, the Aubon Society Field Guide to North American Mammals stated that the wolf kills "by slashing tendons in the hind legs.", this is pure myth. The actual death of the prey is usually caused by massive blood loss, shock, or both. Sometimes with smaller prey a neck bite will snap a backbone. The Alpha wolf will eat first, Wolves usually begin to feed on the rump, if it was exposed during the chase, or else on the internal organs. The muscle and flesh is the last portion of the prey that is eaten, in contras with human habits. Having stong jaws alows the wolf to crush bones to get to the soft marrow, it also helps the wolf eat most of its prey leaving very little waste at the killing site. Another myth is that packs are required to bring down large prey; several observers have seen single wolves catch and kill elk and moose. The first wolf to return to Sweden after the extermination of its wolf population regularly brought down large moose by itself. There is evidence that wolves have some knowledge of proper prey management. L. David Mech found one pack in Minnesota that varied its killing by hunting in a different part of its territory each year, allowing prey numbers elsewhere to recover, aiding the long-term survival of the pack. I'm not just comparing I'm showing you evidence of wolves killing dogs. And it's hard to come by. They really never say what kind of dog even though it doesn't matter. Probably why they don't state it. Really there is no comparsion. Like it says right here wolves hunt alone sometimes and grab smaller prey (pitbull) by the neck and break it. There would be no fight. Like the ranchers leopard hounds you would hear a few yelps and only find blood and hair. Maybe with a pitbull you would here six yelps instead of three and find blood hair and the pits jaw if you're lucky. I am only trying to present correct info about wolves. That is what I'm proving. I hate dog fighting and if I knew who you people were who watched these animals be treated they way they are I would turn you in for not turning those @#$#'s in. I watched dogfighting(pits) last night on animal planet animal cops. They had video and it was horrible and they were no where near fast enough to do anything to a wolf. They were cheering one pit to try to rip the others leg off. It was sick and twisted. I nearlly wept at the way the dogs were treated.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/18/2004
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AS YOU CAN ALL SEE FIRELIER HAS MANY DIFF. SCREEN NAMES, HE EVEN TALKS TO HIMSELF (THROUGH OTHER SCREEN NAMES) TO ATTEMPT TO AD SOME SORT OF VALIDITY TO HIS COMMENTS. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME "FREAK' READ THROUGH THE POSTS THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FIRE-LIES WOLVES CAN BITE THROUGH A FEMUR OF A MOOSE. WOLVES CAN RUN 55mph. WOLVES KILL ANY HUMANS. WOLF COULD BEAT PIT IN A FIGHT. ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED A BULL (not a steer A BULL). ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED (OR COULD) A PIT BULL. HE TRACKS WOLVES FOR FUN. HE HAS EVER BEEN CLOSER THAN A PICTURE TO A WOLF. THAT HE EVER MOVES AWAY FROM HIS COMPUTER JERKING OFF TO CREATING MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES AND STORIES TO ADD VALIDITY TO HIS FREAKISH CLAIMS. NEVER HAS ANY TRUE INTELLIGENCE HE "CUTS AND PASTES" ALL OF HIS INFO FROM ANOTHER SITE. IF HE APPEARS TO BE WRITING FOR HIMSELF, YOU'LL FIND WITH A LITTLE RESEARCH IT'S PLAGIARIZED AS USUAL. THE ONLY TIME HE HAS EVER BEEN TO OR THROUGH ANY MOUNTAINS IT WAS IN A CAR AND THAT CAR NEVER LEFT THE INTERSTATE. HE HAS NEVER PROVED ME WRONG, HE JUST CHANGES THE SUBJECT AND MAKES A FEEBLE ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME AND ANYONE ELSE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH. JUST LOOK BACK THROUGH THE POSTS, HE TRIES TO INTIMIDATE ANYONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH BY CLAIMING THAT YOU ARE THREATENING HIM AND NOW HE IS GOING TO CALL THE POLICE. CALL THE POLICE I DID BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO BE ONE, HE'S LYING. HE TELLS JUST ENOUGH OF THE TRUTH TO MAKE HIS BULLSH@T SMELL REAL, BUT IT'S NOT. I WOULDN'T BE A BIT SURPRISED IF HAS MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES GOING ON MULTIPLE SITES. ALWAYS DOING THE SAME THING NO MATTER THE SUBJECT. ALWAY PLAYING THE ADVERSARIAL INTELLECT THAT REALLY KNOWS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE SUBJECT AT HAND. HE JUST GETS OFF DOING IT! HE PROBABLY LIVES WITH HIS MOMMY AND SHE PAYS FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE HAS RUN SOME FUDGED UP GUILT TRIP ON HER FOR DIVORCING HIS DAD (AS IF IT WERE HER FAULT THAT HE WAS SOME KIND OF CROSS-DRESSING C@CK SUCKER THAT SNEAK OUT AT NIGHT TO MEET HIS "JOHN"). DON'T YOU GET IT SHE HAD TO DIVORCE HIM. HE PROBABLY SITS IN THE BASEMENT WITH ONE HAND ON THE KEYBOARD AND THE OTHER ON HIS, WELL YOU GET IT. NOW WHEN HE GETS BACK ON HE'LL MAKE SOME PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME. YOU SEE THAT'S WHAT GETS SICK-O'S LIKE HIM OFF, BY DRAGGING OTHERS DOWN THROUGH INSULTS, CHILDISH NAME CALLING AND FICTITIOUS LIES ABOUT SUBJECTS HE REALLY KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT. YOU SEE IT'S HOW LITTLE PEOPLE LIKE HIM EXIST WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK AT HOW F@CKED UP THERE OWN LIVES HAVE BECOME, WHILE THEY WERE PUTTING OTHERS DOWN. HE MAKES YOUR (THROUGH HIS EYE'S) LIFE LOOK WORSE. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY HE CAN GO ON IN HIS TWISTED LITTLE MIND. HAVEN'T YOU NOTICED ALL OF THE FREAKY THINGS THAT FIREDRAGON DOES. PETE, SNOOPY, NEAL, DAWN, BEV AND OTHERS ARE JUST HIM. IT'S EASY FOR HIM TO KEEP ALL OF IT STRAIGHT, BEING FAKE, IT'S HIS LIFE. A FICTITIOUS WORLD IS WHERE HE LIVES. O.K. REMEMBER HE HASN'T PROVED ANYTHING THAT I HAVE STATED, NOTHING. NOW HE'S GOING TO GO CRAZY RE-POSTING SITES THAT REALLY DON'T SAY WHAT HE SAY'S THAT THEY SAY. JUST READ THEM. HOW SAD, FIREDRAGON. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE THE TRUTH BEGINS OR ARE YOU THAT FAR GONE? NO ONE BELIEVES YOU, SO GO ON AND CREATE A NEW SCREEN NAME AND VALIDATE YOURSELF. OR HE'LL DO NOTHING AT ALL!! HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD DIDN'T I FREAKDRAGON! I SEE FREAKS LIKE YOU EVERY DAY! YOU BETTER BE LEAVING THE KIDS ALONE TOO. YOU KNOW WHAT THE JUDGE TOLD YOU, SICK-O. OK READY, SET, LIE!

Answer by Mark M
Submitted on 6/18/2004
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Snoopy, Someone earlier signed in as "Mark" and said to put the dog to sleep. That was not me, I've been gone for nearly two days. To answer your cocker spaniel question... First, I'd like some more info. ((age of dog, what was going on when he bit your brother, bad experiences with men, etc.) Looks like your dog was poorly socialized, trained. I'd say it isn't too late to at least win the battle and have a well behaved dog that you can live peacefully with. I'd send you to a professional trainer and have you start with basic obedience. Cockers have been overbred and are prone to "fear" biting, especially the ones from poorly planned breeders. It is obvious that you need to establish your role as a pack leader, and "timeouts" isn't what I'm thinking of. There are several excercises that a trainer can guide you through to gain the upper hand (alpha-rolling for one). Once you establish the proper order in your releationship you can work on his distaste/poor-socialization around men. Being the leader you can work through this with a trainer. Not being the leader you're just gonna have to keep him away from men! Good luck, and you can certainly rectify your problems. Mark M

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/18/2004
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Snoopy, don't give up. This is a learning experience. I am learning all the fallacies that pit bull people produce..the lies. You know, until I looked it up ... I thought that the pit really had scored high in temperament. I knew it had a bad temper, and a bad disposition, but ... I at least thought some hoaky organization had "reported" this. Now I know it is false. I knew that pits were not used as military dogs during the war. They are too stupid and cannot be controlled. It's funny. Think of all the sites that lie about this!!! The dogs so loved by the Marines that they were buried in the same cemetary ... but none of them were pits!!!! There are many people that read this site that never post and they have a good laugh at Mromero � and praise you for your intelligence. The people that go around with dogs straining at the chains and threatening the neighbors � people owning dogs that attack old ladies in wheelchairs�..hate you because you know that the pit bull is a small dog that is not a threat to a health person �. The wolf is an animal that must be reckoned with and is killing machine. Mostly children and the ill must worry about pits � even I am apprehensive about wolves. A bear can run a mile with an arrow in its heart and is still very dangerous and � if you believe in the hunt and are on the ground, you have a window in which you must survive and avoid being eaten. Wolves are different. A pack � if it decides to cross your path .. would be unstoppable. Maybe I could kill a couple, but they would certainly kill me. We have killed so many wolves that they are afraid of us, but the laws have changed and this will change. We might experience what some of the British colonies experienced � 600 people killed by wolves in one year!!! The French king was nearly overthrown by the killing spree of just ONE WOLF in the 1700�s. So, don�t let this crazy discourage you. You have so many valid points and you have learned quickly. Hey, that takes brains and a clear head. You are fighting myths and lies. Give it hell, babe. I suspect it�s one person because he lies constantly and tells the same stories�when they are discredited, he changes his mind. Look at John�.he was angry because I had �confused� a country, but it was HIM that had confused the country. What a fool!!! He was a liar.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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Mark M I wondered how you went from literate to illiterate and replied in one short sentence. My dog bit my brother and boyfriend for trying to put him in his timeout crate. Maximus gets into the garbage whenever I turn my back and this results in a timeout. The only reason he has never bitten me is because I am very good at reading animals. I can tell what he's going to do next. I've avoided a pitbull and Australian Shepard bite. Mostly I don't waive my hands freely when he's acting aggressive. I give him a command like, sit! He listens but I still don't like it. He is going to be four in October. He would be a perfect dog if he would clean up his act. Another question, I can pick up anything in the house, put him behind a closed door and hide the object and he finds it every time. How does he know what the last thing I picked up was? This is his favorite game and would play it for hours if I had the time. I can't afford a trainer at the moment because I just had a baby. I am going back to work very soon and would then be able to afford it. My real name is Serenity, I didn't put it before because I thought people would think I was some Peta hippie with a by est opinion. This is not true, since I had the baby I've been on the Atkins diet.(not very Peta). I will give you an email address that I don't check very often so I won't be bothered with the weird pitbull people. serenitynm22@hotmail.com

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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AS YOU CAN ALL SEE FIRELIER HAS MANY DIFF. SCREEN NAMES, HE EVEN TALKS TO HIMSELF (THROUGH OTHER SCREEN NAMES) TO ATTEMPT TO AD SOME SORT OF VALIDITY TO HIS COMMENTS. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME "FREAK' READ THROUGH THE POSTS THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FIRE-LIES WOLVES CAN BITE THROUGH A FEMUR OF A MOOSE. WOLVES CAN RUN 55mph. WOLVES KILL ANY HUMANS. WOLF COULD BEAT PIT IN A FIGHT. ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED A BULL (not a steer A BULL). ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED (OR COULD) A PIT BULL. HE TRACKS WOLVES FOR FUN. HE HAS EVER BEEN CLOSER THAN A PICTURE TO A WOLF. THAT HE EVER MOVES AWAY FROM HIS COMPUTER JERKING OFF TO CREATING MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES AND STORIES TO ADD VALIDITY TO HIS FREAKISH CLAIMS. NEVER HAS ANY TRUE INTELLIGENCE HE "CUTS AND PASTES" ALL OF HIS INFO FROM ANOTHER SITE. IF HE APPEARS TO BE WRITING FOR HIMSELF, YOU'LL FIND WITH A LITTLE RESEARCH IT'S PLAGIARIZED AS USUAL. THE ONLY TIME HE HAS EVER BEEN TO OR THROUGH ANY MOUNTAINS IT WAS IN A CAR AND THAT CAR NEVER LEFT THE INTERSTATE. HE HAS NEVER PROVED ME WRONG, HE JUST CHANGES THE SUBJECT AND MAKES A FEEBLE ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME AND ANYONE ELSE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH. JUST LOOK BACK THROUGH THE POSTS, HE TRIES TO INTIMIDATE ANYONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH BY CLAIMING THAT YOU ARE THREATENING HIM AND NOW HE IS GOING TO CALL THE POLICE. CALL THE POLICE I DID BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO BE ONE, HE'S LYING. HE TELLS JUST ENOUGH OF THE TRUTH TO MAKE HIS BULLSH@T SMELL REAL, BUT IT'S NOT. I WOULDN'T BE A BIT SURPRISED IF HAS MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES GOING ON MULTIPLE SITES. ALWAYS DOING THE SAME THING NO MATTER THE SUBJECT. ALWAY PLAYING THE ADVERSARIAL INTELLECT THAT REALLY KNOWS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE SUBJECT AT HAND. HE JUST GETS OFF DOING IT! HE PROBABLY LIVES WITH HIS MOMMY AND SHE PAYS FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE HAS RUN SOME FUDGED UP GUILT TRIP ON HER FOR DIVORCING HIS DAD (AS IF IT WERE HER FAULT THAT HE WAS SOME KIND OF CROSS-DRESSING C@CK SUCKER THAT SNEAK OUT AT NIGHT TO MEET HIS "JOHN"). DON'T YOU GET IT SHE HAD TO DIVORCE HIM. HE PROBABLY SITS IN THE BASEMENT WITH ONE HAND ON THE KEYBOARD AND THE OTHER ON HIS, WELL YOU GET IT. NOW WHEN HE GETS BACK ON HE'LL MAKE SOME PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME. YOU SEE THAT'S WHAT GETS SICK-O'S LIKE HIM OFF, BY DRAGGING OTHERS DOWN THROUGH INSULTS, CHILDISH NAME CALLING AND FICTITIOUS LIES ABOUT SUBJECTS HE REALLY KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT. YOU SEE IT'S HOW LITTLE PEOPLE LIKE HIM EXIST WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK AT HOW F@CKED UP THERE OWN LIVES HAVE BECOME, WHILE THEY WERE PUTTING OTHERS DOWN. HE MAKES YOUR (THROUGH HIS EYE'S) LIFE LOOK WORSE. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY HE CAN GO ON IN HIS TWISTED LITTLE MIND. HAVEN'T YOU NOTICED ALL OF THE FREAKY THINGS THAT FIREDRAGON DOES. PETE, SNOOPY, NEAL, DAWN, BEV AND OTHERS ARE JUST HIM. IT'S EASY FOR HIM TO KEEP ALL OF IT STRAIGHT, BEING FAKE, IT'S HIS LIFE. A FICTITIOUS WORLD IS WHERE HE LIVES. O.K. REMEMBER HE HASN'T PROVED ANYTHING THAT I HAVE STATED, NOTHING. NOW HE'S GOING TO GO CRAZY RE-POSTING SITES THAT REALLY DON'T SAY WHAT HE SAY'S THAT THEY SAY. JUST READ THEM. HOW SAD, FIREDRAGON. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE THE TRUTH BEGINS OR ARE YOU THAT FAR GONE? NO ONE BELIEVES YOU, SO GO ON AND CREATE A NEW SCREEN NAME AND VALIDATE YOURSELF. OR HE'LL DO NOTHING AT ALL!! HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD DIDN'T I FREAKDRAGON! I SEE FREAKS LIKE YOU EVERY DAY! YOU BETTER BE LEAVING THE KIDS ALONE TOO. YOU KNOW WHAT THE JUDGE TOLD YOU, SICK-O. OK READY, SET, LIE!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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AS YOU CAN ALL SEE FIRELIER HAS MANY DIFF. SCREEN NAMES, HE EVEN TALKS TO HIMSELF (THROUGH OTHER SCREEN NAMES) TO ATTEMPT TO AD SOME SORT OF VALIDITY TO HIS COMMENTS. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME "FREAK' READ THROUGH THE POSTS THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FIRE-LIES WOLVES CAN BITE THROUGH A FEMUR OF A MOOSE. WOLVES CAN RUN 55mph. WOLVES KILL ANY HUMANS. WOLF COULD BEAT PIT IN A FIGHT. ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED A BULL (not a steer A BULL). ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED (OR COULD) A PIT BULL. HE TRACKS WOLVES FOR FUN. HE HAS EVER BEEN CLOSER THAN A PICTURE TO A WOLF. THAT HE EVER MOVES AWAY FROM HIS COMPUTER JERKING OFF TO CREATING MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES AND STORIES TO ADD VALIDITY TO HIS FREAKISH CLAIMS. NEVER HAS ANY TRUE INTELLIGENCE HE "CUTS AND PASTES" ALL OF HIS INFO FROM ANOTHER SITE. IF HE APPEARS TO BE WRITING FOR HIMSELF, YOU'LL FIND WITH A LITTLE RESEARCH IT'S PLAGIARIZED AS USUAL. THE ONLY TIME HE HAS EVER BEEN TO OR THROUGH ANY MOUNTAINS IT WAS IN A CAR AND THAT CAR NEVER LEFT THE INTERSTATE. HE HAS NEVER PROVED ME WRONG, HE JUST CHANGES THE SUBJECT AND MAKES A FEEBLE ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME AND ANYONE ELSE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH. JUST LOOK BACK THROUGH THE POSTS, HE TRIES TO INTIMIDATE ANYONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH BY CLAIMING THAT YOU ARE THREATENING HIM AND NOW HE IS GOING TO CALL THE POLICE. CALL THE POLICE I DID BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO BE ONE, HE'S LYING. HE TELLS JUST ENOUGH OF THE TRUTH TO MAKE HIS BULLSH@T SMELL REAL, BUT IT'S NOT. I WOULDN'T BE A BIT SURPRISED IF HAS MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES GOING ON MULTIPLE SITES. ALWAYS DOING THE SAME THING NO MATTER THE SUBJECT. ALWAY PLAYING THE ADVERSARIAL INTELLECT THAT REALLY KNOWS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE SUBJECT AT HAND. HE JUST GETS OFF DOING IT! HE PROBABLY LIVES WITH HIS MOMMY AND SHE PAYS FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE HAS RUN SOME FUDGED UP GUILT TRIP ON HER FOR DIVORCING HIS DAD (AS IF IT WERE HER FAULT THAT HE WAS SOME KIND OF CROSS-DRESSING C@CK SUCKER THAT SNEAK OUT AT NIGHT TO MEET HIS "JOHN"). DON'T YOU GET IT SHE HAD TO DIVORCE HIM. HE PROBABLY SITS IN THE BASEMENT WITH ONE HAND ON THE KEYBOARD AND THE OTHER ON HIS, WELL YOU GET IT. NOW WHEN HE GETS BACK ON HE'LL MAKE SOME PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME. YOU SEE THAT'S WHAT GETS SICK-O'S LIKE HIM OFF, BY DRAGGING OTHERS DOWN THROUGH INSULTS, CHILDISH NAME CALLING AND FICTITIOUS LIES ABOUT SUBJECTS HE REALLY KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT. YOU SEE IT'S HOW LITTLE PEOPLE LIKE HIM EXIST WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK AT HOW F@CKED UP THERE OWN LIVES HAVE BECOME, WHILE THEY WERE PUTTING OTHERS DOWN. HE MAKES YOUR (THROUGH HIS EYE'S) LIFE LOOK WORSE. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY HE CAN GO ON IN HIS TWISTED LITTLE MIND. HAVEN'T YOU NOTICED ALL OF THE FREAKY THINGS THAT FIREDRAGON DOES. PETE, SNOOPY, NEAL, DAWN, BEV AND OTHERS ARE JUST HIM. IT'S EASY FOR HIM TO KEEP ALL OF IT STRAIGHT, BEING FAKE, IT'S HIS LIFE. A FICTITIOUS WORLD IS WHERE HE LIVES. O.K. REMEMBER HE HASN'T PROVED ANYTHING THAT I HAVE STATED, NOTHING. NOW HE'S GOING TO GO CRAZY RE-POSTING SITES THAT REALLY DON'T SAY WHAT HE SAY'S THAT THEY SAY. JUST READ THEM. HOW SAD, FIREDRAGON. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE THE TRUTH BEGINS OR ARE YOU THAT FAR GONE? NO ONE BELIEVES YOU, SO GO ON AND CREATE A NEW SCREEN NAME AND VALIDATE YOURSELF. OR HE'LL DO NOTHING AT ALL!! HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD DIDN'T I FREAKDRAGON! I SEE FREAKS LIKE YOU EVERY DAY! YOU BETTER BE LEAVING THE KIDS ALONE TOO. YOU KNOW WHAT THE JUDGE TOLD YOU, SICK-O. OK READY, SET, LIE!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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Yes Neal, they seem so stupid ... but there's something wrong with some, just as there's something wrong with pit bulls. Do you know what game is? It's actually the neurotic ability to just do the same thing over and over ... play with a ball, hang onto a tire, or bite. In nature, it would close the window of survival. And Micky Mouse ... big pits or small, no pit bull in the US has ever managed to kill a healthy adult and they can't really even kill most sick ones or old ones in wheelchairs, even when there are three or four pits. Lone WOLVES can kill cattle and calves � multiple pit bulls have difficulty seriously injuring elderly in wheel chairs!!!! Idaho wolves kill some cows -- the first Idaho wolf depredation in a long time 7-28-98 "The Post Register has reported that a yearling female from the Moyer Basin pack was involved in the depredation of a cow and three calves near the remote ghost town of Cobalt, deep in the Salmon River Mountains of central Idaho. It is possible that other members of the pack were involved. The 83-pound uncollared wolf was trapped right on top of the cow's carcass, according to Layne Bangerter of Wildlife Services in Boise. The female wolf was radio-collared and released near Fish Lake about 50 miles to the north in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness in an area with no livestock." http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/idahopredfirst98.htm Two pit bulls combined couldn't kill a VERY elderly man in a wheel chair!!! "Two pit bulls attack elderly man in Palatine" By Michael Puente Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Thursday, May 13, www.dailyherald.com/news_story.asp?intid=3812015 "The standard height is 35-41 cm (13 �-16 � in) and weight is 11-17kg (24-37 � lbs) �In the Walsall district it was common to find dogs of 34-38 Ibs. which were tall tall enough to convey a suggestion of Whippet in their ancestry. Only a few miles from Walsall, in the Darlaston district, the Staffords obviously did favour their Terrier forbears. They were much "finer" in the muzzle and obviously "terrier faced". They was smaller altogether and lighter boned, turning the scale at from 25-35 Ibs, and occasionally lighter.� First of all, the dogs that were bread for fighting were the dogs above�these weren�t the dogs used for bear baiting and bull baiting, they were much smaller. However, these are the dogs with the lineage. They were obviously just too small. The APBT was bred to be bigger � but then there has only been a couple decades of legal fighting, and this is not enough time to compare with the millions of years wolves have developed into kill survivors. I challenge you to post a cite anywhere that describes the pit fighter as being larger than 60 pounds. Most in the US were between 35-50 pounds!!! However, these did not have the fight lineage that is claimed, but were bred in only a few decades.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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AS YOU CAN ALL SEE FIRELIER HAS MANY DIFF. SCREEN NAMES, HE EVEN TALKS TO HIMSELF (THROUGH OTHER SCREEN NAMES) TO ATTEMPT TO AD SOME SORT OF VALIDITY TO HIS COMMENTS. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME "FREAK' READ THROUGH THE POSTS THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FIRE-LIES WOLVES CAN BITE THROUGH A FEMUR OF A MOOSE. WOLVES CAN RUN 55mph. WOLVES KILL ANY HUMANS. WOLF COULD BEAT PIT IN A FIGHT. ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED A BULL (not a steer A BULL). ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED (OR COULD) A PIT BULL. HE TRACKS WOLVES FOR FUN. HE HAS EVER BEEN CLOSER THAN A PICTURE TO A WOLF. THAT HE EVER MOVES AWAY FROM HIS COMPUTER JERKING OFF TO CREATING MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES AND STORIES TO ADD VALIDITY TO HIS FREAKISH CLAIMS. NEVER HAS ANY TRUE INTELLIGENCE HE "CUTS AND PASTES" ALL OF HIS INFO FROM ANOTHER SITE. IF HE APPEARS TO BE WRITING FOR HIMSELF, YOU'LL FIND WITH A LITTLE RESEARCH IT'S PLAGIARIZED AS USUAL. THE ONLY TIME HE HAS EVER BEEN TO OR THROUGH ANY MOUNTAINS IT WAS IN A CAR AND THAT CAR NEVER LEFT THE INTERSTATE. HE HAS NEVER PROVED ME WRONG, HE JUST CHANGES THE SUBJECT AND MAKES A FEEBLE ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME AND ANYONE ELSE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH. JUST LOOK BACK THROUGH THE POSTS, HE TRIES TO INTIMIDATE ANYONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH BY CLAIMING THAT YOU ARE THREATENING HIM AND NOW HE IS GOING TO CALL THE POLICE. CALL THE POLICE I DID BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO BE ONE, HE'S LYING. HE TELLS JUST ENOUGH OF THE TRUTH TO MAKE HIS BULLSH@T SMELL REAL, BUT IT'S NOT. I WOULDN'T BE A BIT SURPRISED IF HAS MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES GOING ON MULTIPLE SITES. ALWAYS DOING THE SAME THING NO MATTER THE SUBJECT. ALWAY PLAYING THE ADVERSARIAL INTELLECT THAT REALLY KNOWS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE SUBJECT AT HAND. HE JUST GETS OFF DOING IT! HE PROBABLY LIVES WITH HIS MOMMY AND SHE PAYS FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE HAS RUN SOME FUDGED UP GUILT TRIP ON HER FOR DIVORCING HIS DAD (AS IF IT WERE HER FAULT THAT HE WAS SOME KIND OF CROSS-DRESSING C@CK SUCKER THAT SNEAK OUT AT NIGHT TO MEET HIS "JOHN"). DON'T YOU GET IT SHE HAD TO DIVORCE HIM. HE PROBABLY SITS IN THE BASEMENT WITH ONE HAND ON THE KEYBOARD AND THE OTHER ON HIS, WELL YOU GET IT. NOW WHEN HE GETS BACK ON HE'LL MAKE SOME PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME. YOU SEE THAT'S WHAT GETS SICK-O'S LIKE HIM OFF, BY DRAGGING OTHERS DOWN THROUGH INSULTS, CHILDISH NAME CALLING AND FICTITIOUS LIES ABOUT SUBJECTS HE REALLY KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT. YOU SEE IT'S HOW LITTLE PEOPLE LIKE HIM EXIST WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK AT HOW F@CKED UP THERE OWN LIVES HAVE BECOME, WHILE THEY WERE PUTTING OTHERS DOWN. HE MAKES YOUR (THROUGH HIS EYE'S) LIFE LOOK WORSE. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY HE CAN GO ON IN HIS TWISTED LITTLE MIND. HAVEN'T YOU NOTICED ALL OF THE FREAKY THINGS THAT FIREDRAGON DOES. PETE, SNOOPY, NEAL, DAWN, BEV AND OTHERS ARE JUST HIM. IT'S EASY FOR HIM TO KEEP ALL OF IT STRAIGHT, BEING FAKE, IT'S HIS LIFE. A FICTITIOUS WORLD IS WHERE HE LIVES. O.K. REMEMBER HE HASN'T PROVED ANYTHING THAT I HAVE STATED, NOTHING. NOW HE'S GOING TO GO CRAZY RE-POSTING SITES THAT REALLY DON'T SAY WHAT HE SAY'S THAT THEY SAY. JUST READ THEM. HOW SAD, FIREDRAGON. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE THE TRUTH BEGINS OR ARE YOU THAT FAR GONE? NO ONE BELIEVES YOU, SO GO ON AND CREATE A NEW SCREEN NAME AND VALIDATE YOURSELF. OR HE'LL DO NOTHING AT ALL!! HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD DIDN'T I FREAKDRAGON! I SEE FREAKS LIKE YOU EVERY DAY! YOU BETTER BE LEAVING THE KIDS ALONE TOO. YOU KNOW WHAT THE JUDGE TOLD YOU, SICK-O. OK READY, SET, LIE!

Answer by POSTED
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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you post something fire fag.cause your cites and pastes don't prove one thing.you are just a little wal-mart working punk.you said early why people work at wal-mart,was because of their dreams.HA HA.LOSER.THEY WORK AT WAL-MART BECAUSE THEY ARE LOSERS.GO AHEAD AND THINK YOU HAVE A GOOD JOB.MAKING 6 OR 7 BUCKS AN HOUR.REAL MEN WOULDN'TWORK THERE.I MAKE MORE IN A MONTH THAN THOSE LOSERS DO ALL YEAR.PIT BULLS AIN'T NOTHING LIKE YOU SAY.JUST LIKE WOLVES AIN'T.AND YOU MAKE SUCH A DEAL OF SIZE.SO WHAT 50LBS OF GOOD PIT WILL TEAR UP A WOLF.THEY ARE FOUGHT ALL SIZES.DUMBASS.IF THEY ARE GOOD ENOUGH THEY ARE OPEN TO ANY OTHER DOG REGARDLESS OF SIZE.THATS WHAT IS MEANT BY OPEN.YOU MAKE A BIG DEAL OUT OF POST THIS AND THAT WHEN WE DO WHAT OF IT.YOU JUST BLOW ON ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE. COLBY'S PINSCHER 72 POUNDS 1910 REFERRED TO AS ONE OF THE GREAT ALLTIME DOGS.GAME AND A KILLING PUNISHER. PAGE 102 THIS IS THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER. THERE ASS WIPE ITS POSTED WHAT OF IT?I CAN POST LOTS MORE BUT WHAT DO YOU CARE?

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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The info I am about to state is from this book,WOLF ALMANAC, by Robert Busch. You can buy this book or get it from the library. In the 1800s Theodore Roosevelt went on a wolf hunt with three dozen hunters and one hundred dogs. Roosevelt wrote that "The only two requisities were that the dogs be fast and fight gamely; and in consequence they formed as wicked a hard-biting crew as ever throttled a wolf.(one hundred dogs). However, the Alberta cheif and game warden wrote in 1907 annual report of Agriculture that "Hunting with dogs has proven more successful with coyotes than with the timber wolf. The large greyhound or wolfhound which runs by sight and hunts in pairs will readily overtake and kill a coyote, but they would be no match for a full grown timber wolf. This book included a picture of the wolf I'm about to describe to you. The Ghost Wolf. Also known as the White Wolf, appeared in the Judith Basin of Montana in the 1920s. She was suposed to have killed $35,000 worth of stock and was vigorously pursued. Hunters shot her in the hind leg , knocked her down, tried to run her down by car, set up traps all over the county, and still were unable to catch her. At one point she even outfought five imported Russian wolfhounds. She was finally shot in 1930.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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This info is from the same book as above. In 1976, two Yukon Territory biologists observed a fight between three grizzlies(a sow and two large yearlings) and seven wolves. The bears,which were digging at the entrance of an occupied wolf den, were driven off by the wolves. In 1990, a twelve-wolf pack in Denali"hunted down" a female grizzly and three yearlings that had come too close to the wolf den the previous day. Two young grizzlies were killed by the wolves, and the other two bears were both wounded.(Grizzlies will kill and eat wolf pups given the opportunity) Wolves are killed by grizzlies if their alone but still! This next entry I'm including is only to prove wolves are not cowards, because the wolf was most likely killed. Arjan Singh, one of India's most famous conservationists, has written in Tiger! Tiger!(a book) that before the decimation of that country's tiger population, tigers used to prey on wolves. More recently, at a safari park in Ontario, when a tiger got loose and entered the wolf compound, the 130-pound alpha male wolf attacked the 500-pound cat immediately before workers gained control of the situation. The book is all about wolves and talks about wolves encountering many wild animals and the result.The only thing they say about dog's is that wolves kill and eat them, and to protect your pet. A lot of info on wolves and how to help protect them. Good book, look into it.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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Cite your sources LIAR !!! Haha! Everyone sees you are a punk and can't support what you say. These dogs that were "bred" for fighting for the most part WEREN'T bred for this purpose. These larger animals have been bred to be bigger and more formidable!! Lone WOLVES can kill cattle and calves � multiple pit bulls have difficulty seriously injuring elderly in wheel chairs!!!! Idaho wolves kill some cows -- the first Idaho wolf depredation in a long time 7-28-98 "The Post Register has reported that a yearling female from the Moyer Basin pack was involved in the depredation of a cow and three calves near the remote ghost town of Cobalt, deep in the Salmon River Mountains of central Idaho. It is possible that other members of the pack were involved. The 83-pound uncollared wolf was trapped right on top of the cow's carcass, according to Layne Bangerter of Wildlife Services in Boise. The female wolf was radio-collared and released near Fish Lake about 50 miles to the north in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness in an area with no livestock." http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/idahopredfirst98.htm Two pit bulls combined couldn't kill a VERY elderly man in a wheel chair!!! "Two pit bulls attack elderly man in Palatine" By Michael Puente Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Thursday, May 13, www.dailyherald.com/news_story.asp?intid=3812015 Snoopy, don't give up. This is a learning experience. I am learning all the fallacies that pit bull people produce..the lies. You know, until I looked it up ... I thought that the pit really had scored high in temperament. I knew it had a bad temper, and a bad disposition, but ... I at least thought some hoaky organization had "reported" this. Now I know it is false. I knew that pits were not used as military dogs during the war. They are too stupid and cannot be controlled. It's funny. Think of all the sites that lie about this!!! The dogs so loved by the Marines that they were buried in the same cemetary ... but none of them were pits!!!! There are many people that read this site that never post and they have a good laugh at Mromero � and praise you for your intelligence. The people that go around with dogs straining at the chains and threatening the neighbors � people owning dogs that attack old ladies in wheelchairs�..hate you because you know that the pit bull is a small dog that is not a threat to a health person �. The wolf is an animal that must be reckoned with and is killing machine. Mostly children and the ill must worry about pits � even I am apprehensive about wolves. A bear can run a mile with an arrow in its heart and is still very dangerous and � if you believe in the hunt and are on the ground, you have a window in which you must survive and avoid being eaten. Wolves are different. A pack � if it decides to cross your path .. would be unstoppable. We have killed so many wolves that they are afraid of us, but the laws have changed and this will change. We might experience what some of the British colonies experienced � 600 people killed by wolves in one year!!! The French king was nearly overthrown by the killing spree of just ONE WOLF in the 1700�s. So, don�t let this crazy discourage you. I suspect it�s one person because he lies constantly and tells the same stories�when they are discredited, he changes his mind. Look at John�.he was angry because I had �confused� a country, but it was HIM that had confused the country. What a fool!!! He was a liar.

Answer by sam
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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wolves die against fighting dogs.its proven in pit matches.whatever a wolf can or can't do they do not work,in the pit fights.as for killing they take the old,sick or weak.lots of information on that already posted.something else i know the wolves can kill average dogs.so?they can't out fight a trained pit.they have been matched.big deal does it bother you that much?theres wolves around that are tame.they just do not have the mental make-up to pit fight.and so?does it bother you that they can't retrieve ducks like a lab?or rabbit hunt like a beagle?or do police work like a German police dog?or point birds like a bird dog?it no doubt does not.you just have a hang-up because the wolf is wild and preys on wild animals that it should be able to out fight the fighting breeds.it does not work that way with any breeds.they are best at what man developed them to do.better than the wild wolf.that they were bred from.if you choose to think otherwise you are just being stupid!

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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Hey SAM .. why don't you cite some sources that we can all see? Snoopy, Neal, Firedragons, Everything, and others have posted some reputable sites that back them up. We just have your word on it ... how can an animal be so dangerous that can't even kill a human healthy adult? They are right about breeding. The pit bull that was bred for fighting was small. These new dogs are really pit bulls .. they weren't bred for fighting, they were bred to be bigger ... of course, I am sure that makes them tougher, but not compared to a wolf. Did you see this? Lone WOLVES can kill cattle and calves � multiple pit bulls have difficulty seriously injuring elderly in wheel chairs!!!! Idaho wolves kill some cows -- the first Idaho wolf depredation in a long time 7-28-98 "The Post Register has reported that a yearling female from the Moyer Basin pack was involved in the depredation of a cow and three calves near the remote ghost town of Cobalt, deep in the Salmon River Mountains of central Idaho. It is possible that other members of the pack were involved. The 83-pound uncollared wolf was trapped right on top of the cow's carcass, according to Layne Bangerter of Wildlife Services in Boise. The female wolf was radio-collared and released near Fish Lake about 50 miles to the north in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness in an area with no livestock." http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/idahopredfirst98.htm Two pit bulls combined couldn't kill a VERY elderly man in a wheel chair!!! "Two pit bulls attack elderly man in Palatine" By Michael Puente Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Thursday, May 13, www.dailyherald.com/news_story.asp?intid=3812015

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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Hey, Snoopy ... good post! Yes, anyone that really knows the wild realizes that pit bulls are just whimpy compared to wild animals. Even poodles sometimes kill pit bulls...I have posted this! Almost ALL dogs killed and eaten by wolves are hunting dogs or guard dogs. I have the stats on this and also posted the numbers to Wildlife. They keep the depredation stats. Pits have something wrong with their heads and so do the owners. They are almost universally stupid and the same. They think their dogs can kill lions. They don't even understand animal control methods. Rings are put in dairy cow bull noses because they are easily controlled with the ring. The dogs in the past used by the butcher didn't kill the cattle ... they just held them. I can do that on the nose. You can take the largest horse and put you hand around the lower part of its muzzle. You can feel a soft spot there on both sides of their muzzle. If you grip this, just above the nose, and pull down on their heads, they will easily be controlled. Dogs were trained to attack this area. But they didn't kill the animal. Wolves do kill the animal. It's already been posted ... when bull baiting stopped, they used smaller dogs and they started fighting them. It wasn't necessary to have large dangerous dogs, so they used small dogs. That was the pit and it was bred for some time ... more than 100 years. The new dogs, the larger ones, have been around a couple decades at most. They haven't been bred for much. The dog was a very weak and sickly underdeveloped wolf. They have pre adult characteristics .. floppy ears, playing, barking, and so on. Even if you breed a weak whimp for strength, you still have a weak wimp. It's as simple as that. Dude.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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Dear Mr. Sam If a wolf would not even think twice about attacking a 500lb tiger. I'm positive it would completely destroy and eat a pit. Are you stupid? Wolves not only have a higher psi, they fight bears. I have pictures in a book of wolves fighting. One wolf trys to go at the others throat, the other wolf was in mid air landing on the back of the other wolfs neck preparing to break its neck. Do you have ADD? Maybe I should research people like you. How high can pits jump? Do they jump 4 feet in the air when other pits strike a bite at them? Wolves are better at almost everything than dogs. Dogs are only shadows of wolves. Every talent a specific breed (pit bull)of dog has, is from a wolf. If there never was a wolf, pit bulls wouldn't exist. A wolf is like a supreme dog, only not domesticated. Please stop preaching crap to people.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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Just to make sure. I am only telling you that a wild male wolf would kill a trained pit bull. If you live on the ege of the forest in Yellowstone, and let your pit run free. Lets just say your trained fighting pit starts to wander. It may sense female wolves in heat, who knows. Suddenly it feels a sharp pain from behind, the alpha male has given him a warning(if he's lucky). The wolfs head is larger and broader than the pits. The wolf spreads it's two front legs showing its 1 1/2-2 inch teeth. They are curved inward and sharper than a dogs. The wolf towers over the pit weighing anywhere from one hundred to one hundred and 75lbs. He sees the pit as a sure kill, or dinner. The pit is scared but goes for a throat grab. The wolf moves (being faster from dodging moose hooves and fighting his whole life)jumping in the air landing with his mouth over the the back of the pits neck then flinging him through the air and breaking his spine.(breaking his neck). The wolf eats the pit then brings food from it back to his cubs. I will say it again, research and read the info I have given you. Go to the websites, read the books, get a clue.

Answer by Gene
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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Sam says, "wolves die against fighting dogs.its proven in pit matches.whatever a wolf can or can't do they do not work,in the pit fights.as for killing they take the old,sick or weak" The fact is that wolves kill farm animals, none of which are sick. They kill cattle, sheep, and people. This has been documented and cited. NOW SAM...cite one reputable source that shows the pit bull has ever fought a larger animal and won in a pit match. Cite where a pit bull has ever beaten a wolf. If you understood animals, you wouldn't even question this. YOU KEEP SAYING THE SAME THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN like a crying baby that just keeps crying! Where is your proof? In your twisted mind@! Haha! LOSER!!!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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Hey, Snoopy...right on! People that have pits can be so ... dumb, huh? Dogs were a wolf mutation. They were weaker than wolves. Let me explain a little to you. Think about the weakest person you have ever known. Maybe it was a girl ... maybe it was a boy. The boy would not develop secondary male characteristics. The pubic hair would not kink or he wouldn't have any. His voice would not change. His voice would sound .... feminine His hands would be fine and no real muscles. This is similar to the dog, but much more because the dog mutated into a new species. The wolves had some mutations. They were normally killed by other wolves, but somehow, these survived, mostly by hanging around human camps and eating leftovers. In time, they developed a dependency upon the human. The dog didn't have to be as smart and it wasn't. It didn't have to bring down large animals, but it had uses. Time passed and the dog served its purpose. Some dogs were bred for war, but they were still domestic. The hormones that ran in the veins of wolves made them much more aggressive and mean and strong. It's like comparing a woman to a steroid and HGH pumped strongman. No comparison. The dogs that were bred to fight were really bred to be small and to have a brain disorder. Gameness is just doing the same thing over and over again. Play with a ball. Hang on. This way, matches could last 20 minutes or longer without either animal being hurt. Some lasted half an hour. Now ... think about the toughest, strongest, meanest human being you have ever known ... and he would be nothing compared to a wolf. In the human world, you meet people that are weak and can't run. In the wild, all wolves must be able to kill and run and they must be able to fight. So, they are all strong. ALL of them!!! Or they die. Now, there are men that could kill a wolf. I don't know if they could with their bare hands, but with a club or knife, sure. but many a mountain man has been killed by the wolf, even when armed. Contrast that to pit bulls that have attacked childre, the elderly, and even elderly in wheel chairs .... and had their butts kicked. YEA!! Butts kicked. Wolf fights are very violent and over in less than two minutes generally, because that's how long it takes the other wolf to be killed. I have a picture of a Presa Canario that fought with a wolf .... the wolf bit off the nose and back a few inches toward the eyes, but the lower damage was unbelievable. It took the entire jaw off its face and even the tongue. It was bleeding and choking and the owner put it out of its misery. Remember, the Presa Canario is used by the police to "neutralize" pit bulls. The hunter, hunting bear, let the dogs get too far ahead and ran across a bait that the wolves had found. Ask anyone in Wildlife management that deals with wolves or anyone that has hunted near wolves. Wolves are the most dominant predator alive. They are found in every country and can out compete all over animals for food...they will even eat themselves .... everything is competition. Mating is competition. The alpha eats first. They must kill their share or they are cast from the pack. It's as simple as that. The pit must rely upon its master for survival. It never had to fight for its life.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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Also, people with wolf experience and wolf problems ... would see the wolf as the ultimate preditor, the ultimate fear factor. In the book Dracula, Stoker could have used pit bulls as the monsters controlled by Dracula; however, the pit was the same as it is today ... a small and not very dangerous animal that a healthy woman adult could kick away. There were also guard dogs then and herder dogs....but wolves were the monsters in the book that Dracula commanded. Lucy wrote about her cowboy friend interest, "He is such a nice fellow, and American from Texas, and he looks so young and so fresh that it seems almost impossible that he has been to so many places and has such adventures." The dogs at this time, Mastiff's were considered the most dangerous and toughest ... so, when a dog was killed (demonstrating the power and fierceness of the foe) it was a Mastiff that was killed: "Early this morning a large dog, a half-bred mastiff belonging to a coal merchant close to Tate Hill Pier, was found dead in the roadway opposite its master�s yard. It had been fighting, and manifestly had had a savage opponent, for its throat was torn away, and its belly was slit open as if with a savage claw." A Mastiff and not a pit. When pit bulls were fought, all of England knew that the pit bull was not the toughest dog, it was cheap to own and easy to handle. A big Mastiff that is mean is hard to handle and a danger to the handler. An article in Simon Frazer University Paper talked about wolves and dogs. "Ostensibly labelled a "Caribou Recovery Program" to help out local First Nations, the real purpose of the program is to increase Moose populations for trophy hunters. The idea is simple: kill the Wolves so we can kill more Moose. The Yukon Government Leader, John Ostashek, is himself a former "big game" outfitter, and his former business is now being run by his son-in-law. Strangely enough, the wolf slaughter is taking place in the same area where Ostashek's son-in-law is licensed to kill Moose, Caribou, Sheep, and Grizzly bears, with no legal limits on the animals (read money) that he can take." http://www.peak.sfu.ca/gopher/94-1/issue13/wolfkill.ans "According to Haber [paraphrased], if you "take the smartest dog you know, double its intelligence and triple its emotions, then you're getting close to the average Wolf." http://www.peak.sfu.ca/gopher/94-1/issue13/wolfkill.ans "The Durhams' Australian shepherd ran into the mix to protect the cattle. "They killed him instead of the cows," Barbie Durham said. "If he hadn't have went out there, they would have taken a calf." The attack infuriated Madison County commissioners, who said federal officials dragged their feet while wolves wreaked havoc on ranchers during calving season." Wolves are to much like dogs, so I have not hunted them .... but I know a government tracker. That isn't his main occupation, but by license. He hunts anyway and it's great to hunt dangerous game and get paid. There might come a time when he will do this, but right now, there are plenty of hunters to take care of the wolves. "The wolves were probably part of the new Wall Creek Pack, although that is not certain. The wolves attacked a sheep guard dog and scattered a band of sheep, resulting in several lambs breaking their legs. The dog survived, perhaps because it wore a spiked collar. The collar did have tooth marks in it." http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/grav-killpermit.htm CARTER NEIMEYER, HEAD OF WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES MENTIONED THAT IF A WOLF WANTED TO KILL A DOG, IT WOULD ONLY TAKE SECONDS. HOWEVER, EVEN THEIR PLAY IS DEADLY. "He said both dogs got munched pretty badly. Fish and Game Officer Gary Gadwa gave the resident some non-lethal tools to scare the unwanted party off, and it worked at least once in a non-attack situation. Neimeyer said the dog owner wasn�t sure if the attacker�s intent was to kill. He said if a wolf plans to kill a dog, it is usually done quickly, but these incidents showed it might have been a case of rough housing gone bad." http://www.challismessenger.com/archives/0513wolf.html Wolf management -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Editor: On March 9, 2004, my dog was killed by a wolf. This was documented as a wolf kill by an Idaho Fish and Game officer. His lungs had both been punctured, amongst other things. I guess his only crime was that he was trying to protect our property by barking at a wolf. The area round our house is frequented by elk and the wolf probably thought that he was also trying to kill the elk as another predator. I guess the dog was too brave for his own good. This happened within 20 yards of my property. Last year, at about the same time, the wolves killed a deer within 30 feet of our property. Perhaps all of the environmental terrorists that support the wolf should be forced to examine the remains of a wolf-killed critter. It is not a pretty sight. When the wolf was to be �reintroduced� in Idaho, several hearings were scheduled. The hearings were a farce as the die was cast for them to proceed with this program. Of course, and true to the nature of the environmental terrorists, the majority of these hearings were scheduled hundreds of miles away from where these wolves were to be released. Seems that the officials were not seeking input but rather dictating what was going to happen. The history of the wolf is well documented. The reasons why the wolf was eliminated can be seen in the pages of our newspapers. Last year a wolf was killed because it was stalking an individual�s wife. I live in a neighborhood that has children. They walk to the school bus stop in the dark. Does it take the death of one of them, by a wolf, to bring this problem predator under control? The wolf shows no fear of humans and is a problem because of it. http://www.challismessenger.com/archives/0325kalenik.html

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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Everyone around wolves know even large dogs do not stand a chance: "Holaday, herself the owner of a large dog, said dog owners should keep track of their pets while in the woods. The death of the male wolf means that its female mate is alone and without the hope of joining either of the other two wolf packs located closer to Alpine, she said. ''They would kill her. That is their way,'' said Holaday, explaining the rigid pack order that wolves follow. Holaday suggested that the lone female wolf be recaptured and allowed to mate with another wolf in captivity."http://www.libertymatters.org/wolfreintro-wolfshot.htm There is an Armenian saying, "The wolf in the flock, the dog punished" http://www.wolves.de/wolfsayings_e.phtml "A wolf is believed to have killed another dog in the DuNoir Valley on Thursday morning. Last Monday and Tuesday, the Gros Ventre pack killed three other dogs. WOLVES KILL ALL KINDS OF DOGS AND DON'T NEED HELP. GENERALLY, DOG FIGHTS DON'T END UP WITH A DEAD DOG, EVEN PIT FIGHTS. A FIGHT WITH A WOLF RESULTS IN A DEAD DOG ALMOST ALWAYS!! "Jimenez said he was on his way to investigate the death of a Rottweiler that belonged to a rancher at the other end of the valley from the Robinetts, closer to Dubois. �We suspect it�s a wolf kill,� he said. �The radio-collared wolf was right there. The Robinetts almost lost their Great Pyrenees to wolves Tuesday night, about 50 yards from their house. It was the second attack by wolves on a Robinett dog in a month. An attack in August, also near the house, was fatal. �Everything just happened so fast and so quick,� she said. �It sounded like a huge dog fight. That�s all I could hear. It was dead still when I went out. I had no idea that anything was around.� As soon as it was light enough to see in the morning, Robinett ventured out and found Booger, a Great Pyrenees guard dog, lying in grass about 150 yards from the house. The Robinetts now lock up their dogs at night because of the wolf problem. They have lost seven dogs in three years." http://www.billingsgazette.com/wyoming/20000925_ywolves.html SMART GUARD DOGS DON'T ENGAGE WOLVES. THEY BARK AND RUN!!! "The Chief Joseph pack killed 6 sheep at a private ranch in the Tom Miner Basin, just north of Yellowstone National Park on the 20th. Four guard dogs at the ranch were barking and highly upset by the presence of the wolves but did not prevent some loss. This ranch has had 2 guard dogs and several sheep killed by wolves since the reintroduction. WS investigated and confirmed that about 5 wolves were involved." http://mountain-prairie.fws.gov/wolf/wk120399.htm The WOLF is NOT a DOG. Physical changes in the dog gave it a weak jaw and little bite. NO DOG CAN COMPARE TO A WOLF. There is just no comparison. "The oldest confirmed domestic dog found in the world is from Iraq, dated at 12,000 years BP (Olsen). In North America a great deal of controversy surrounds the issue; the oldest confirmed find is from the Jaquar Cave, Idaho, with an age of approximately 9,140 years, but skulls found in glacial muck north of Fairbanks may be slightly older, and a mandible from Old Crow, Yukon has been estimated at as much as 30,000 years old. The process of domestication evenually crippled the wolf strain involved, as their jaws got shorter and their teeth crowded, eliminating one of their main hunting advantages, powerful jaws combined with very specialized tooth development. Although some huskies continue to treat humans as equals (as do wolves in captivity), none of the 200 distinct breeds of domestic dogs are anything like wolves. This is most notable in the size of their brains - in a wolf-sized domestic dog, the brain is often as much as 20% smaller than in wolves (McLoughlin). Despite this, many humans today continue to think of wolves in much the same way as they do their spaniel. Unable to contemplate the wilderness because they have so successfully insulated themselves from it, they often try to use their dogs and wolves as a bridge to understanding, much to the detriment of the dignity of the wolf. " http://www.explorenorth.com/library/yafeatures/bl-wolf1.htm ALL DOGS HAVE WEAK JAWS COMPARED TO WILD ANIMALS!!!! The pack of three adults, two yearlings and five pups also recently killed a calf and injured another on the same allotment." http://www.billingsgazette.com/wyoming/20000925_ywolves.html

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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A wolf has killed three dogs on a ranch in the DuNoir Valley, about 25 miles southeast of Yellowstone. Two of the dogs were found dead about a quarter mile from the ranch -- the Diamond G. The third is missing and presumed dead. The dogs were found dead on April 21. Although this is the range of the Washakie Pack, examination of the dead dogs indicates a single wolf killed the dogs. Ed Bangs, head of the Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery was quoted in an Associated Press article that the small number of bites indicated just one wolf. He said that when several wolves are involved the dogs will have more bites. "The question is, 'Can one wolf kill two dogs?"' Bangs said. "The answer is they can if they are fighting." I reported last December that additional wolves had moved into the DuNoir. A black wolf in particular had been observed. This is the first official confirmation of this. I understand that for the time being, they plan to monitor the Washakie wolves more closely and try and collar the new wolves. The alpha male of the Washakie Pack, the late 15M, killed several cows on an area ranch last fall. He was dispatched because officials believed it was 15's second livestock depredation. Poopie? How old are you? You're such a dork. Get some real proof you loser. There are teen chat rooms, this is for people who want information and real answers.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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AS YOU CAN ALL SEE FIRELIER HAS MANY DIFF. SCREEN NAMES, HE EVEN TALKS TO HIMSELF (THROUGH OTHER SCREEN NAMES) TO ATTEMPT TO AD SOME SORT OF VALIDITY TO HIS COMMENTS. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME "FREAK' READ THROUGH THE POSTS THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FIRE-LIES WOLVES CAN BITE THROUGH A FEMUR OF A MOOSE. WOLVES CAN RUN 55mph. WOLVES KILL ANY HUMANS. WOLF COULD BEAT PIT IN A FIGHT. ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED A BULL (not a steer A BULL). ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED (OR COULD) A PIT BULL. HE TRACKS WOLVES FOR FUN. HE HAS EVER BEEN CLOSER THAN A PICTURE TO A WOLF. THAT HE EVER MOVES AWAY FROM HIS COMPUTER JERKING OFF TO CREATING MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES AND STORIES TO ADD VALIDITY TO HIS FREAKISH CLAIMS. NEVER HAS ANY TRUE INTELLIGENCE HE "CUTS AND PASTES" ALL OF HIS INFO FROM ANOTHER SITE. IF HE APPEARS TO BE WRITING FOR HIMSELF, YOU'LL FIND WITH A LITTLE RESEARCH IT'S PLAGIARIZED AS USUAL. THE ONLY TIME HE HAS EVER BEEN TO OR THROUGH ANY MOUNTAINS IT WAS IN A CAR AND THAT CAR NEVER LEFT THE INTERSTATE. HE HAS NEVER PROVED ME WRONG, HE JUST CHANGES THE SUBJECT AND MAKES A FEEBLE ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME AND ANYONE ELSE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH. JUST LOOK BACK THROUGH THE POSTS, HE TRIES TO INTIMIDATE ANYONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH BY CLAIMING THAT YOU ARE THREATENING HIM AND NOW HE IS GOING TO CALL THE POLICE. CALL THE POLICE I DID BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO BE ONE, HE'S LYING. HE TELLS JUST ENOUGH OF THE TRUTH TO MAKE HIS BULLSH@T SMELL REAL, BUT IT'S NOT. I WOULDN'T BE A BIT SURPRISED IF HAS MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES GOING ON MULTIPLE SITES. ALWAYS DOING THE SAME THING NO MATTER THE SUBJECT. ALWAY PLAYING THE ADVERSARIAL INTELLECT THAT REALLY KNOWS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE SUBJECT AT HAND. HE JUST GETS OFF DOING IT! HE PROBABLY LIVES WITH HIS MOMMY AND SHE PAYS FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE HAS RUN SOME FUDGED UP GUILT TRIP ON HER FOR DIVORCING HIS DAD (AS IF IT WERE HER FAULT THAT HE WAS SOME KIND OF CROSS-DRESSING C@CK SUCKER THAT SNEAK OUT AT NIGHT TO MEET HIS "JOHN"). DON'T YOU GET IT SHE HAD TO DIVORCE HIM. HE PROBABLY SITS IN THE BASEMENT WITH ONE HAND ON THE KEYBOARD AND THE OTHER ON HIS, WELL YOU GET IT. NOW WHEN HE GETS BACK ON HE'LL MAKE SOME PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME. YOU SEE THAT'S WHAT GETS SICK-O'S LIKE HIM OFF, BY DRAGGING OTHERS DOWN THROUGH INSULTS, CHILDISH NAME CALLING AND FICTITIOUS LIES ABOUT SUBJECTS HE REALLY KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT. YOU SEE IT'S HOW LITTLE PEOPLE LIKE HIM EXIST WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK AT HOW F@CKED UP THERE OWN LIVES HAVE BECOME, WHILE THEY WERE PUTTING OTHERS DOWN. HE MAKES YOUR (THROUGH HIS EYE'S) LIFE LOOK WORSE. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY HE CAN GO ON IN HIS TWISTED LITTLE MIND. HAVEN'T YOU NOTICED ALL OF THE FREAKY THINGS THAT FIREDRAGON DOES. PETE, SNOOPY, NEAL, DAWN, BEV AND OTHERS ARE JUST HIM. IT'S EASY FOR HIM TO KEEP ALL OF IT STRAIGHT, BEING FAKE, IT'S HIS LIFE. A FICTITIOUS WORLD IS WHERE HE LIVES. O.K. REMEMBER HE HASN'T PROVED ANYTHING THAT I HAVE STATED, NOTHING. NOW HE'S GOING TO GO CRAZY RE-POSTING SITES THAT REALLY DON'T SAY WHAT HE SAY'S THAT THEY SAY. JUST READ THEM. HOW SAD, FIREDRAGON. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE THE TRUTH BEGINS OR ARE YOU THAT FAR GONE? NO ONE BELIEVES YOU, SO GO ON AND CREATE A NEW SCREEN NAME AND VALIDATE YOURSELF. OR HE'LL DO NOTHING AT ALL!! HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD DIDN'T I FREAKDRAGON! I SEE FREAKS LIKE YOU EVERY DAY! YOU BETTER BE LEAVING THE KIDS ALONE TOO. YOU KNOW WHAT THE JUDGE TOLD YOU, SICK-O. OK READY, SET, LIE! quit saying it and start proving it! The fact that a wolf was seen on a cows corpse only proves that the wolf is a scavanger, just like the rest of the non-apex preditors. Not tough enough to kill only to feed on already dead animals!

Answer by macker
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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Some of you are just plain stupid. Over many years, man has changed the wolf according to man's necessity. Wolves hunt and kill to survive put in packs...they bite and hold on until other wolves bite and hold on than they release and bite in another section while another still holds the prey. it's team work people. A lone wolf rarely survies, Thats why they live in packs. In a short sprint a wolf can't beat a greyhound, but they can take them in the long run, A wolf cant pull more weight then an american bulldog, and a wolf doesnt have a stronger bite then a pit because a pit is bred to and a wolf isn't. I'tsthat simple..and don't insult anyones intelligence ,a wolf cant break a moose's leg with one bite, wolves arent build for this. Unlike other wild animals like hyenas wolves don't eat bones. Many breeds are meant to kill wolveson a one on one and they aren't fighting breeds such as anatolitans, spanish mastiffs, Great pyranese dogs and others...many of these breeds would never beat a pit in a fight. Wolves are the original blueprint and allaround best, but man has made the wolf specialize in certain areas. regardless of how you people feel thats the reality. and just in case i don't even have a pit i have an argentine dogo.

Answer by Game Pit Owner
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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I really think that 90 percent of the people posting on here need to do some research. I own a game bread dog and a wolf would fight for a while with the pit and then run away if it could they hunt in packs the japanese tosa is a huge dog and in japan they claim to kill the pits and here our dogmen claim to kill the tosas but as someone mentioned on here the pitbulls in japan are substandard fighting dogs put against their best and the pits still hold their own, the problem with the tosas here in the U.S. is that they are a far stretch from the quality tosas in japan and the pits win most all the time and yes a tosa will kill the wolf too and I consider the tosa the only other real fighting dog out there so do the real dogmen problem is that the tosa matches are timed 30 minutes usually and not a match of stamina a pit fight may go for 2 hours which is where the gameness of a dog will really show through tosas don't get the same level of game testing and to end this I can just ask that if anyone wants to put posts on here go to google.com and type top fighting dogs or top game dog and read up on the subject before spouting off on a hunch or feeling get the facts do us all a favor.

Answer by Game Pit Owner
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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I must apologize for roughing snoopy up because after careful examination of the things he says about wolves I have come to the conclusion that he is probably still in grade school sorry kid.p.s. there young man remember when you said that wolves will attack a bear one will get the front another on the back another on the legs thats pack fighting for food and you also said that a wolf wouldn't think twice about attacking a 500lb tiger hmmm I must wonder how you were able to get inside the psychi of a wolf and what he would or would not do, please in the future do some research before you talk I make my kids research any subject that they want to attack or defend just some friendly advice young man.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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I didn't just come up with any of those. They were in a book stupid. You can also check the websites dumb ass! It's a real shame that you have reproduced. I SAID WOLVES DEFEND THEIR CUBS AGAINST BEARS. NOT A WOLF.I didn't even say that I just copy and pasted the info from a website. Seeing as you idiots are too stupid to do it yourselves. If you were watching animal planet tonight there was a special on grizzles. A PACK of wolves was defending an elk carcass from a bear. This I saw with my own eyes. Once again YOU CAN GO TO THE WEBSITES I HAVE POSTED AND SEE IT IS WORD FOR WORD THE TRUTH. You also need to learn how to read more carefully. Oh, by the way, I will tell you again."I'm a young woman"! My father has been researching animals for years and also used to own a pit. He says I am being stupid for arguing with you and will never be able to convince you. He said you are most likely a bunch of inbred hicks who knows nothing about animals and that I'm wasting my time. I now see that he is right. I only feel sorry for your dog if he ever steps into the path of an alpha male timber wolf. Get a brain! The two don't even compare.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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Game Pit said, " really think that 90 percent of the people posting on here need to do some research. I own a game bread dog and a wolf would fight for a while with the pit and then run away if it could they hunt in packs the japanese tosa is a huge dog and in japan they claim to kill the pits and here our dogmen claim to kill the tosas but as someone mentioned on here the pitbulls in japan are substandard fighting dogs put against their best and the pits still hold their own, the problem with the tosas here in the U.S. is " Sir, you are a liar. Pit bulls are punks. I could easily handle several and my sister handled two. I have seen a deputy kick one that jumped at him and that was it. No problem. You haven't read the posts. The fact is that experts all agree the pit is a whimpy dog compared to a wolf. NO dog has a strong bite compared to a wolf. Snoopy has posted great posts and her posts are valid. It is you that just talk through your foot. A major fight was stopped in NO recently. Only 5,500 dollars was exchanged. In Japan, there is more than a million dollars for the tournament champion and no pit has made it to the tournament. No pit owner in the US would fight a Tosa, they are too big and strong. I have seen fights scrapped for two pounds. Read the old dog fight newspapers. Macker, I posted the article about the single wolf that killed the Great pyranese dogs in about a minute and then started eating. MACKER ... As for the wolf being a predator, as I have posted, the experts examin the carcuss and won't pay unless it is wolf kill. Idiot. Read the posts!!!

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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i am from Alaska we have dog fights up here each week.the pit bulls have took the wolf in each match.some think they can take the pit bull with something else.wolves are raised by some trained matched.well let me tell you the wolf just fights for his life,not to win.and once that pit gets a grip its over.the wolf just wants the pit off and gives up.this guy that thinks he could take a pit bull.hes very stupid,if a pit of any size at all went after a man like he does a another dog.the man was barehanded.it would tear you apart quicker than it does a wolf even.what do you think you could do?bite him?i have heard some stupid things in my life,but you top it.wolves are not pit fighters.they live in packs and kill to eat.when these guys put them in the pit they find out.because they thought like you.after losing a load of money,they found something else to worry about.lol.yeah theres lots of high paying jobs up here,so we do some crazy things for fun when not working.so fools that think the wolf can pit fight,come on up and bet i will be the one taking your money!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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Snoopy, the Game Pit Owner has no experience with dogs and is lying. You can tell this. No one that has really been in the wild would doubt that a wolf could kill a dog in a second. Did you see how Sam brought up the stuff about herd dogs again and I just posted how a single wolf killed one of these dogs in less time than it takes to go outside? Most pit owners that fight them can't even afford to feed them. It is illegal and a felony in most states, although they seem to ignore these laws in many states. Recently, a crackdown in New Orleans netted 29 fighters!!! It was amazing. But at that fight, there was only $5,500 in the purse. The Tosa cost more than that and their owners compete for purses that are often over 100,000 dollars. They certainly wouldn't waste time here. The pit can't make it in Japan. I have seen some bad dog injuries from wolves... that's why I am so careful. I could post some pictures ...the wolf will often pull the entire face off the dog. When pit bulls fight, they often lock on each other's mouth. They can hold on like this until they are broken....but they can't do this with a wolf. A wolf will take their face off, jaw, teeth, and tongue, bite through the bone. EVen without further information, the physical limitations of the dog gives it a weak bite compared to a wolf. The anatomy is different. The dog is only dangerous to the elderly and children or the sick. Elderly woman mauled by pit bull Monday, February 16, 2004 Posted: 9:05 AM EST (1405 GMT) ORANGE, California (AP) -- A 91-year-old woman mauled by her great-grandson's pit bull was in critical condition Monday, with both arms amputated at the elbow, officials said. Ruby Sharum and her granddaughter were putting away groceries Friday night when the dog growled and then lunged at Sharum. Next-door neighbor Shelbi Moore said Sharum's granddaughter pounded on her door, screaming that her grandmother was being attacked. Moore said she walked into her neighbor's kitchen after calling 911 and saw the pit bull hovering over the elderly woman with blood stains on the floor. "I was terrified," Moore said. "I had always thought that dog might hurt somebody." Moore said she had called Animal Care Services at least 10 times in the past year because she and her two young daughters feared the dog. The dog was euthanized on Saturday by county animal officials. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/02/16/dog.attack.ap/ MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Pit bull owners take pride in having dogs raised as "killers" and the Austalian site lists an American site that talks about fights lasting an hour. Hey, how long do you think a gun battle lasts with the opponents standing face to face? Or a knife fight? This just shows that two weak animals do not have the strength of teeth to kill. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT Pit Bull Terriers Hon. P. D. BEATTIE (Brisbane Central� ALP) (Premier) (9.37 a.m.), by leave: There have been a number of horrific attacks on people by pit bull terriers in Australia. Recently, an elderly Queensland woman was severely mauled. I was asked yesterday if the Queensland Government would consider taking action in relation to pit bull terriers on a Statewide basis. My answer to that is yes. We will look at what, if anything, can be done to curb these vicious attacks. As members know, this is normally the responsibility of local government. However, it is clear from the Internet that American pit bull terriers are still being bred specifically to kill. There are Internet sites in the United States containing graphic reports detailing how one pit bull killed another bite by bite. Proud breeders advertise how they have deliberately bred their dogs They are bred to kill other American pit bull terriers of a similar weight over and over again Also on the Internet is a site owned by the Australian Dog Breeders Registry. The site says, "We are the only registry for the American pit bull terrier in Australia." It has a direct link under the title of Interesting Reading to the Pit Bull Reporter in the United States. In the Pit Bull Reporter one can read how a "perfect southern gentleman" named Boudreaux has bred fighting dogs for more than 35 years and can read a bite-by-bite account of an hour-long dog fight involving one of his champions, or so-called champions. Extract taken from the following site: 5 Oct 2000 Legislative Assembly 3473 (PDF format).

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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Answer by Jerry Submitted on 6/21/2004 Rating: Not yet rated Rate this answer: N/A Worst Weak OK Good Great i am from Alaska we have dog fights up here each week.the pit bulls have took the wolf in each match. Hey Jerry...you are a liar!!! That don't fight wolves with pits in Alaska or anywhere else!!! Idiot! Answer by Jerry Submitted on 6/21/2004 Rating: Not yet rated Rate this answer: N/A Worst Weak OK Good Great i am from Alaska we have dog fights up here each week.the pit bulls have took the wolf in each match.some think they can take the pit bull with something else.wolves are raised by some trained matched.well let me tell you the wolf just fights for his life,not to win.and once that pit gets a grip its over.the wolf just wants the pit off and gives up.this guy that thinks he could take a pit bull.hes very stupid,if a pit of any size at all went after a man like he does a another dog.the man was barehanded.it would tear you apart quicker than it does a wolf even.what do you think you could do?bite him?i have heard some stupid things in my life,but you top it.wolves are not pit fighters.they live in packs and kill to eat.when these guys put them in the pit they find out.because they thought like you.after losing a load of money,they found something else to worry about.lol.yeah theres lots of high paying jobs up here,so we do some crazy things for fun when not working.so fools that think the wolf can pit fight,come on up and bet i will be the one taking your money!

Answer by Gene
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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Nathan "professional bit breeder" is an example of the dummies that write on pit sites. What he is saying has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the bite strength....an alligator bites harder than any animal and take a look at it's head. Anyway, Nathan says: "The APBT is the strongest dog in the world per its size, domestic or wild. It also holds the record on bite and lock-jaw also in wieghted sleigh pulling. A wolf is generic name of a lupus breed. 'Wolfs' work as a unit to kill prey, if singled out they are weak and vunerable. And for people who don't know anything about dogs here is a simple way to determine jaw strength... look at the width proportion to its over all size. i.e. Pit Bull- Stout and wide for its smaller body & Wolf- long and slender for it medium agile body." This also tells me that you have never taken any biology courses past the initial course. A simple biology course in Comparative Anatomy has this classic question: "13___ Suppose that you are a mammalogist who is comparing the jaw musculature of several bat species. You find that the cross-sectional area of the masseter muscle in species A is 30% larger than the cross-sectional area of the masseter muscle in species B. All other aspects of the muscle are similar (identical origin and insertion) and the jaw and skulls of the two species are similar as well. You predict that the maximum bite force in species A would be (a. greater than; b. less than; c, equal to) that of species B." The skull size is important of course, but now being BIGGER in relationship to the body. The larger the body, the harder the bite is the skull increases accordingly. "Variation in bite capacity could be ecologically relevant in at least two ways. It could confine the kind and the size of prey available" In other words, a LARGER mouth needs to be able to hold LARGER prey. The long nose of an alligator can hold much larger prey that if it had a short nose...this is also true with the wolf. PREY HARDNESS effects the evolution of bite force in an animal. Wolves must crack bones to get at fat and the nutrients stored there. Dogs eat cereal for the most part, cereal that is cut up. The "pit bred" dog might bite on tires, but he still eats cereal or soft dog foods...there is motivation here. He doesn't have to bite hard to survive, as the wolf does. A pit bull performing badly will be retired quickly...a wolf will die. "There are two types of force injection: Force versus jaw gape. This force changes according to the position of the lower jaw. This simulates the forces experienced while chewing food. Force versus time. This is time dependent and typically higher in amplitude and sharper than the former type. This simulates the forces experienced when brittle or hard material are present eg. biting on a stone in the food." Neural responses increase the bite force and wolves have much greater neural responses.

Answer by JERRY
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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i am a liar?how can you say anything,have you ever been to a high stakes dog-fight?the people will try anything for big money. wolves are tried idiot.they have not won,so you do not see them much.but at least 5 times i have seen them matched.pure wolves and cross wolves.the ones with dog blood are better for pit fighting,as they are more aggressive plus their chests are bigger.the only people that lie about this is this firedragon guy.he thinks people don't see though his endless names with the same type posts.yeah right pete,gene,snoopy ,what will you call yourself next?you need to get your lame ass up and find a job.this is as close as you get to the real world and it shows.up here i will have saved enough to retire on in 7-8 more years.you don't do nothing but set in your room worried about a stupid wolf.you try to tell people that have eyes they don't see what they see.i have read though these posts,how many hours have you spent on this, for well over a month?then you call other people LOSERS?WHAT DO YOU MAKE PER HOUR FOR ALL OF THIS NONSENSE?NOTHING THATS WHAT.WHO IS THE LIAR,LOSER AND IDIOT?

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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I understand that you think your pit is capable of killing most anything. I don't even care that you think this. That is totally okay. But I don't like dog fighting. Like I said, I love dogs. My father had a pit bull. It was stolen because it had the markings of a doberman with a white stare on it's chest. The dog was totally badass! He paid good money for it. It was stolen from him when the breeder and(pit fighter) realized the dog was worth a lot more than he had sold it for. My dad still gets angry and upset when ever he thinks about kayzak(the pitbull). My only concern is that someday if you're in wolf territory with your pit. Please believe me, if your pit goes against the alpha male in welping season he will be killed in less than a minute. Wolves have been killing each other for thousands of years. They are very supreme when it comes to fighting. In a pit a wild wolf would only be concernd with escape, it wouldn't even care about the pit bull. The pit wouldn't even be able to catch it. Wolves can run up to 45 mph. I am just a person who loves and cares for dogs. Don't be stupid, a wolf is a wild animal. Bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, stealthier. Wolves kill 40-60 dogs every year, at least one of them had to be a pit bull. Be smart. Think about it.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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Well "SNOOPY" you should go back and look at the threats that fireretard made about "threats on the internet" telling someone that "you would kill them if you knew who they were". This would qualify as one of those prosecutable statements. 2nd wolve are not consistantly larger than most dog at an average weight of 85lbs. the wolf is only mid-sized. WOLVES make up the majority of kills on domestic animals including dogs, not a WOLF. The truth is that all of this is speculative. NOBODY HAS ANY REAL PROOF either way. The wolf is not bigger than large pits they are reaching the 120lbs mark lately. And have been "Pitted" against many animals. Once Again you seem to be a young girl that has let OPINION cloud your thinking. If your not just another freaky screen personality of fireliers. I suppose you are, however you have to think about the evidence there is none....................... You do not really believe that a wolf could take a brown bear, your very own statements contradict that.. In fact the Brown bear has been known to feed on wolves quite often and this is well documented. Unlike what a wolf feeds on mostly scavengers, they don't hunt everyday. Think about what you're saying, have you ever been around these animals. Seen the shear mass of a grizzly or Kodiak bear. No wolf will ever bring down this animal. You only Quote others you have no real knowlege of the facts, another flatlander trying out your wings. Fireretard says that he's tracked the wolves for mile's. But failed to mention that he is from luisianna and following or tracking a wolf\wolves is highly illegal. He doesn't understand that you don't just go out and track wolves'. It take's horses, dogs, manpower, feed, on and on, massive amounts of equipment just to move accross a 200 inch snow pack at anywhere from 20 to 40 miles a day. STUPID STATEMENTS, THAT HOW I KNOW HE IS LYING

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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I posted the Wildlife site in WI with the state biologist telephone number. Wolf kills are so brutal they are evident. A dog does not have the strength...NO DOG does!!! The wolves break the bones of the largest animals and even eat them. You find bones in their scat. There aren't many animals in the Americas that can do that, although I have seen it overseas. Bears have SEVEN times the scent ability of dogs...they can smell prey a mile. A wolf can smell several miles and can track prey three or four days later. In the movies they have bears standing up to fight or attack. In real life, they rarely do that and only when they are curious. An attack bear comes right at you, mouth wide open. You know what happens next...it's tooth and claw. It's funny because an average bear can outrun any man .. but the bear anatomy is one of great strength and no speed. Can you imagine a 1000 pound animal running at you faster than a man can run? The bear is worth more than the fur, about 4,000 dollars more, but I guess I shouldn't tell about that .. it might encourage bear hunting. Some have to be culled to reduce the strain on the environment. Scientists told me they have tracked bear in a straight line on the ice (they have an electronic marker) 40 miles (that's Forty) to get to a carcas...that means the bear smelled the "blood" 40 miles away. It was too old to decay ... yet wolves have just as keen a smell ...apparently, they can even tell which way a female is going when they cross the tracks. You can almost always confuse an animal by circling it. It can smell your tracks but can't tell which direction you travel. Bears also have a very strange and kind of scarey habit...they roll logs and rocks. When you see this, it seems ... so odd. You can find the log and see where it has displaced the earth and follow this track. I have never seen them do this, but I have seen the results. Bear scat can be round and about 3 inches in diameter or when they eat certain foods it seems to be more like a cow patty. They have strong jaws, but I don't see the bones in them as you do the wolf. Bones are always in wolf scat. The wolf fights his entire life and fights till he is kiled eventually. How many pits today are actually the result of pit selection in the last three generations? Practically none. ALL wolves are the result of MILLIONS of years of selection. New York Animal Rights Activists Urge Alaska Boycott Liz Ruskin, Newsobserver.com, 27 December 2003 Wolves kill moose regulary "Friends of Animals is staging 32 such demonstrations around the country in the last weekend of the year to protest the state's wolf-control plan, which calls for shooting some 40 wolves in the McGrath area with the help of aircraft. The group is calling for a tourism boycott on Alaska until the program is canceled. Wolf-control advocates in Alaska say the wolves have grown too plentiful in some areas and are killing too many moose that human hunters rely on to feed their families." SNOOPY MENTIONED HOW THE WILDLIFE biologist said that the pit would not even be in the running, that it would be guard dogs and such ... pits just aren't big enough. A Mastiff can be 300 pounds and commonly weigh more than 200.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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Snoopy, I have seen many sites that cite 45 mph...recently this has been updated to 55 mph. I posted the reference to this. Kayzak is a person's name but it was also the name of a famous man eater. I hope your dog was not named after the famous man eater of that name...most hunters know about him, or real hunters. I agree about dog fighting. 99% of the time, there are no serious injuries, but dogs don't know the rules and sometimes can blind each other and they do kill each other. People that fight their animals are cowards that should enter themselves into the contests...if the dog tried to say you, it would be a worthy thing, but not fiending tooth and claw for an owner's enjoyment. As I say, I protect my dogs and they are the primary object...returning with them safe. Bells seem to ward off bears and wolves...all hunters should use them. I want the animal to stay AHEAD of the bell.

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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we have some great PITS up here in ALASKA that are bred right out of proven dogs.they have been''sorted''as to the best of the best.that is what you find if you are stupid enough to try to take our bankroll.as to us fighting ourselves.we do that to,so not only do we have the toughest wolf manglers,we will tear up in our own fights as well.how could it be any different?rough land,rough dogs,rough men,rough work.as to the pits size-we have them from 45lbs.-110lbs. but you know that don't mean jack with a PIT BULL.the 50-60 pounders are some of the meanest gamest s.o.b.'s that ever were matched.they love to fight.if you show one a wolf across the ring -they flat out cry to get their teeth into him.the wolf sure ain't got that ATTITUDE.they don't want to be there.you are a stupid ass thinking a wolf wants to fight for no reason.they are a wild dog.they have not been bred to do nothing!when matched they want out they see no reason to fight!sure they are killers in the wild but that is their pack mentality.nothing in their makeup makes them want to pit fight.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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Dude, you have NO idea who I am ...but it doesn't cost me money to hunt. I MAKE money. As for the average wolf weighint 85 pounds, that is stupid. We talk more of mean weights of species. There are some small wolves in Europe. Timber wolves, males average An 85 pound Timber Wolf would still be much stronger and bite harder than a 120 pound pit...but no "pit" weighs that much. The ones that fought in pits weighed around 45 pounds on average. The bigger ones today are bred for SIZE and do not have the heritage of the old ones. So, forget the "pit fighters" Ranchers know that no dog can fight a wolf and live. The fight only lasts seconds. I think your dad owned the pit before the information became so prevalent about them. After all, Spanky had a pit. They were ... cute looking and very few new that there was something wrong with them. Europe started listening when Princess Anne's dogs attacked a little girl and killed a dog. They were represented by the American Pit Bull Association as being "perfect animals" and an example of what a pit could be..... Many nations have put bans on them. Today, pit bull owners are mostly viewed as trash. Most people know the pit is too dangerous to be around children. They know that you can't get home insurance and it draws attention from the police. My dogs would be a match for any pit ... I will never know for certain, because my dogs don't fight dogs or animals. I have seen what ever a poodle can do to a pit. I have seen what wolves can do. There's no comparison. The "pit" is like a tough child put up against Achilles. The child, no matter how tough cannot ever be as strong or as aggressive. If you go see the movie, "Brotherhood of the Wolf" you will see what ONE wolf did. The incidents are true in that movie. The wolf at one time killed as many as five people a week and sometimes just drank their blood. The movie attributes the "BEAST" to an imported animals, but when the "deformed" wolf was killed in France, the horrible deaths stopped. The wolf killed so many people, the king was almost overthrown...it wrecked the economy. Animals with savage instincts are more likely to attack children because their high pitched noises sound like an animal in distress...ever hear an animal in distress? It's sound becomes high pitched. They also don't like the behavior. Having a dog around can be very dangerous when camping because the dog's barking can anger an animal.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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Jerry, give me a break. You are such a liar. The Eskiom or "Nanuit" as they call themselves semi herald the wolf. You see the wolf on totems (which in themselves have religious significance) and in their folklore...the wolf seems to represent the ultimate beast, more so than even the bear. The bear is a poor hunter - he is built for power and can defeat any animal singly, and also defeat an unending line of dogs ...but most of his diet consists of insects and plants. The Eskimo respects the hunter. Killing large hooved animals is a risky business with a gun or bow... killing these animals with their teeth is amazing. Wolf lovers try to protect the wolf from being hunted by screaming that the wolf just culls the weak and does us a favor ... and the livestock lost is an acceptable loss ... however, there have been THOUSANDS of cattle killed and eaten by wolves and these are healthy farm animals. The wolf must be hunted and killed eventually or we will end up like Louis and Clark .. they had to eat their horses because the wolves had killed all the game. Eskimos have great reverence for wolves, but they work daily with dogs and dogs are their staff of life. They also must protect the dogs from wolves. Most wolf packs consist of the father, mother and immature wolves (offspring) yet they bring down the largest game. The Eskimo is frightened of the wolf, called Amaguk. Wolves are strange in that they fear man but will circle him and come within yards. Watch the sign in the woods and you will cross their tracks, thinking that the wolf is going somewhere when the wolf is tracking you. The wolf is afraid of the human ... so it is strange to come across this, but all Eskimo know about this. They speak of this in bars and in stores and in the field. The track of Amaguk. "Montana ranchers are finding out. They need a confirmed livestock kill before they can act. In the Big Hole country, rancher Wayne Turner used a radio monitor to track two transplanted wolves, B7 and B11. In one week he trailed them and found two carcasses of moose calves, a cow moose, a cow elk and a yearling heifer, the last a confirmed wolf kill by wildlife officials. The wolves were darted with tranquilizers and relocated to an enclosure in Yellowstone Park. Last week in the nearby Deer Lodge Valley, four wolves killed or maimed seven Angus cows. The wolves were shot by federal agents." Actually, we kill wolves all the time. You can get a license in Alaska to kill them and in Canada, some areas have bounties. In many areas of the Russian republics, there are bounties on wolves. The Eskimo tell of the magic ball that the wolf owns ... it makes him invisible and able to fly. That's how he can silently stalk the Eskimo and come within yards ...the Eskimo believed that the wolf was the greatest hunter and the one admired most. Their fables speak of this and an Eskimo knows that no dog can match a wolf. You are a liar Jerry. What you say never happens. Show us an article where a dog/wolf fight occurred ANYWHERE. If you see them all the time, there will be arrests. Especially since Eskimos seem to be full of tales of non violence and I have always been amazed that this blood sport was brought to North America by Europeans .. Europeans that fought dogs, but could not tame the wolf. The bet is on the fight or they would fight bears.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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In the yellowstone documentry with Doug Smith there was a female wolf called cindrella who was driven from the pack by the alpha female. I asked Doug what became of her. This was his email she took over as alpha female in the Druid pack after she and the other females in the pack killed number 40. She bred several yrs and was kiled this winter by another pack of wolves. Douglas W. Smith Leader Yellowstone Wolf Project YCR P.O. Box 168 Officer's Row, Building 27 Yellowstone National Park, WY 82190 Phone: 307-344-2242 Fax: 307-344-2211 doug_smith@nps.gov http://www.nps.gov/yell/nature/animals/wolf/wolfup.html .

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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Breed in Brief - Rhodesian Ridgeback This breed was developed in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries in southern Africa by European settlers who needed a dog able to retrieve, track, hunt hoofed game, protect property, babysit children and hold a lion at bay. The Rhodesian Ridgeback's short, dense coat comes in shades ranging from light wheaten to red wheaten. The breed's distinguishing feature is a distinct ridge on the back, starting behind the shoulders and continuing to a point between the hips. The ridge is formed by hair that grows in the opposite direction to the rest of the coat. Rhodesian Ridgebacks are remarkably clean dogs. Easy to keep, they are rarely noisy or quarrelsome, unless provoked. A desire to please, coupled with a general good nature and a liking for children, has increased its popularity. This dog is a loyal, dedicated companion. Height at shoulder: 24-27". Weight: 70-85 lbs. AKC group: Hounds AKC History - The Rhodesian Ridgeback, sometimes referred to as the African Lion Hound, is a native of South Africa having been bred by the Boer farmers to fill their specific need for a serviceable hunting dog in the wilds. The Dutch, Germans, and Huguenots who emigrated to South Africa in the 16th and 17th centuries brought with them Danes, Mastiffs, Greyhounds, Bloodhounds, Terriers, and other breeds. For one hundred years from 1707, European immigration was closed, and the native dogs played an important part in the development and ultimate character of the Ridgeback. The Hottentots, a native race living within range of these early settlers, had a hunting dog that was half wild with a ridge on his back formed by the hair growing forward. There was interbreeding between these dogs and those of the settlers, and this crossbreeding, in due course, established the foundation stock of our present-day Ridgeback. Good hunting dogs were hard to come by in those days and their value was high. The Boer settler needed a dog that could flush a few partridge, pull down a wounded buck, guard the farm from marauding animals and prowlers at night. He also needed a dog that could withstand the rigors of the African Bush, hold up under the drastic changes in temperature from the heat of the day to nights below freezing, and go a full 24 hours or more without water. He required a shorthaired dog that would not be eaten by ticks. In addition, he needed a companion that would stay by him while he slept in the Bush and that would be devoted to his wife and children. Of necessity, then, the Boer farmer developed, by selective breeding, a distinct breed of the African Veldt--the Ridgeback. In 1877, the Reverend Helm introduced two Ridgebacks into Rhodesia where the big game hunters, Selons, Upcher, Van Rooyen, and others, found them outstanding in the sport of hunting lions on horseback. They raised and bred these dogs with an appreciation of their exceptional hunting qualities, the ridge on their back becoming a unique trademark. In 1922, a group of Rhodesian breeders set up a standard for Ridgebacks which has remained virtually unchanged ever since. Some outstanding specimens were imported to the United States in 1950, and the breed was admitted to registry by the AKC in 1955. The Ridgeback, in a comparatively short space of time, has won himself many admirers in the United States for his innate qualities. He is clean, an easy keeper and never noisy or quarrelsome. Because of his heritage, obedience training comes readily to him and his desire to please his master, coupled with his general good nature and liking for children, is making him new friends each year.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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Despite their blood relation, wolves and dogs do not belong together, a pair of wolf experts said earlier this month. Carter Niemeyer, wolf recovery coordinator for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, said that although wolves are typically timid around humans, people should be very careful in deciding whether to take their dogs into wolf country. "They will kill your dog," he said. "For the good of your dog, I would not take your dog out in wolf country." Niemeyer, who has worked around wolves and other wild animals since 1975, said wolves usually shy away from humans and resort to barking and yipping like dogs when approached from a distance. However, they will not tolerate the presence of other canines and will act quickly to eliminate any perceived competitors. Curt Mack, gray wolf project leader for the Nez Perce Tribe, said wolves are so intolerant of dogs because they are highly territorial. "Dogs are viewed as competition," he said. The wolf experts said the best advice for dog owners who venture into wolf territory is to leave their pets at home. Dogs, even larger breeds that are typically self sufficient, should never be allowed to stray ahead on hikes into areas where wolves are known to frequent, they noted.

Answer by newbe
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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hello all,WOW what a great discussion with allot of..."intensity".It took 4 days of free time to read it all. I think EVERYONE here has some great arguments in there case, but EVERYONE here has also been pretty insulting,but hey that proves you all are firm and believe what you say.I also have an opinion on the matter and i hope you all read it with an open mind.Both wolves and pitbulls deserve some respect for what they each are capable of.Wolves are a wonder of north American animals, and pitbulls are truly superior over many if not all breeds.if in the pit against a proven dog=dog wins(it has been done, period.).if in the wild under most circumstances the wolf would probably win, but i can not say for certain.One more thing,allot of people share the opinion that dog fighting is a horrible thing, but all seem to "know" and have pondered it themselves,where do you draw your line?pitting was not meant to be like what you people think and its a good thing for the dogs.

Answer by Nurgula
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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I live in Holland, Mass. and I have 7 of these Caucasian Ovcharka dogs. I may have to move them to a farm or another state because the townspeople think they are so dangerous, even though they haven't even bitten anyone. They are highly aggressive LGD's and would not hesitate to attack any predator threatening a flock. One of my dogs, a smaller female only 140 lbs killed another dog, a Chow Chow, and that started this whole business of the town trying to get rid of my dogs. I have sold some to ranchers, and the demand for them is now so high I am making $1,000 - $1,500 a dog, so you can see why I want to protect my investment. I got my original stock from family members who live in Kazakhstan, and this breed has no peer when it comes to LGD's I come from a long line of Central Asian shepherds and let me clear up the confusion some of you have about wolves and dogs and places on earth. 1. Central Asian countries are not part of Russia. That ended with the fall of the Soviet Union, over 10 years ago. 2. The national language of Kyrghyzstan is Kyrghyz, not Russian. Russian is their second language. They are completely different languages. 3. We are ASIAN people, heavily influenced by the Mongols who ruled this region for centuries. Anyone who has ever seen people from Central Asia would know we are NOT Russian. Our features are most definitely Asian. 4. Caucasian Ovcharka's are Central Asian dogs, not Russian dogs. The Soviets didn't really do anything with them until they were brought to Russia around 1960 or so. Their undisciplined breeding practices and greed have resulted in so many different Ovcharka type dogs that it is tough to find anything remotely close to a pure bred Caucasian Ovcharka any more. This breed was kept pure for centuries, basically because people did not sell dogs, they simply gave them away to friends and family. Since man made no profit from dogs, the human factor of greed was removed. All dogs were workers, not pets, populations didn't explode due to popularity, fads, etc. So, this breed stayed pure, intended for it's only purpose (guarding) for hundreds of years. Only in the last century, especially the last 20 years or so, have we gotten in and started messing this breed up. Since I've brought these dogs to America, I guess I am part of the problem, too. Ovcharka's do kill wolves. Wolves also kill Ovcharka's But it is packs of wolves, not single wolves that cause most of the problems. A wolf on their own won't go near Ovcharka's they might try to steal a lamb on their own, but at the sight of an Ovcharka, they run. Given the coice of fighting a bigger, stronger, meaner canine than themselves or chosing to hunt elsewhere, they pick the latter. 5. Wolves are smart. They will try to lead the dog away from the herd so the rest of the pack can make a kill or so they can isolate a dog and kill it. The hardest thing to train a LGD is to stay near the herd, don't give chase, and don't get distracted. A pack of wolves can kill a bear so of course they can bring down a dog, but they aren't killing an Ovcharka by themselves. This isn't a Golden Retriever we're talking about here. Read on: http://www.ovcharka-breeds.com/faq.htm How does the Caucasian compare to other flockguardian breeds? (Anatolian Shepherd, Kangal, Akbash, Great Pyrenees, Kuvasz, Central Asian Ovcharka, etc.) The Caucasian distinguishes itself from other flockguardian breeds in two ways. First, most flockguardians were bred to run out and chase off the threat. Caucasians were bred to run out and kill the threat, so that it never bothered the flock again. Thus, the intensity of a Caucasian in protection mode is significantly higher than what is typically exhibited by these other breeds. 6. Most wolves in Central Asia weigh less than 45 kilograms (100 pounds). The biggest one I've ever heard of weighed around 130 pounds. The average weight of my Ovcharka's is around 72 kilos (160 lbs). Picture a hairy, athletic, mean mastiff and you pretty much have an Ovcharka. They are too powerful and mean for a wolf to handle by itself in a fight. 7. There are a lot of wolves in central Asia and orphaned/lost puppies are found and kept by stupid people sometimes. They try to raise them like dogs but most of them have problems, they usually are so shy that they fear bite a lot, and then they must be put down or kept locked up. When they are captive they don't run around killing other big dogs. They do kill other animals like cats and chickens, I guess because they are still mostly wild and they have an urge to prey, but they don't seem to be involved in a lot of dog fights. 8. Dog fighting is legal in Kazahkstan. Although they were not originally raised or bred for fighting, Ovcharka's are also used in dog fights. They do kill Pit Bulls in some fights, but Pit Bulls win sometimes. My Uncles and Cousins have told me they know of 1 wolf ever being used in Pit fighting. Someone had a large male and put him in the ring in the hopes of winning some money. His career lasted 1 fight, he was crippled by an Ovcharka. He didn't die because he quit soon after he became injured, just like wolves do in a pack once another has proven to be dominant. Very rarely, if ever, will a Pit Bull quit, they are the gamest of all the dogs. They would be willing to go through pain that a wolf would not, plus they are stronger, faster, and better fighters. Being wild doesn't have a thing to do with this subject. Knowing wolves and dogs I can confidently say that a Pit Bull would beat/kill a wolf in a fight the overwhelmingly majority of the time. I would love to show this first hand to everyone in this site. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who has a wolf. If this firedragon fellow has the Yellowstone contacts he claims, maybe he can find someone that has a wolf and is willing. Come to Holland, Mass and bring a wolf or I will bring one of my Ovcharka's to you. I have no problem in letting my dog do what it is bred to do. I will video it, so all can see. Plus, it's a business investment for me. That video will probably be the single greatest selling point for my dogs. Any takers?

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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AS YOU CAN ALL SEE FIRELIER HAS MANY DIFF. SCREEN NAMES, HE EVEN TALKS TO HIMSELF (THROUGH OTHER SCREEN NAMES) TO ATTEMPT TO AD SOME SORT OF VALIDITY TO HIS COMMENTS. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME "FREAK' READ THROUGH THE POSTS THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FIRE-LIES WOLVES CAN BITE THROUGH A FEMUR OF A MOOSE. WOLVES CAN RUN 55mph. WOLVES KILL ANY HUMANS. WOLF COULD BEAT PIT IN A FIGHT. ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED A BULL (not a steer A BULL). ANY WOLF HAS EVER KILLED (OR COULD) A PIT BULL. HE TRACKS WOLVES FOR FUN. HE HAS EVER BEEN CLOSER THAN A PICTURE TO A WOLF. THAT HE EVER MOVES AWAY FROM HIS COMPUTER JERKING OFF TO CREATING MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES AND STORIES TO ADD VALIDITY TO HIS FREAKISH CLAIMS. NEVER HAS ANY TRUE INTELLIGENCE HE "CUTS AND PASTES" ALL OF HIS INFO FROM ANOTHER SITE. IF HE APPEARS TO BE WRITING FOR HIMSELF, YOU'LL FIND WITH A LITTLE RESEARCH IT'S PLAGIARIZED AS USUAL. THE ONLY TIME HE HAS EVER BEEN TO OR THROUGH ANY MOUNTAINS IT WAS IN A CAR AND THAT CAR NEVER LEFT THE INTERSTATE. HE HAS NEVER PROVED ME WRONG, HE JUST CHANGES THE SUBJECT AND MAKES A FEEBLE ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME AND ANYONE ELSE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH. JUST LOOK BACK THROUGH THE POSTS, HE TRIES TO INTIMIDATE ANYONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH BY CLAIMING THAT YOU ARE THREATENING HIM AND NOW HE IS GOING TO CALL THE POLICE. CALL THE POLICE I DID BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO BE ONE, HE'S LYING. HE TELLS JUST ENOUGH OF THE TRUTH TO MAKE HIS BULLSH@T SMELL REAL, BUT IT'S NOT. I WOULDN'T BE A BIT SURPRISED IF HAS MULTIPLE SCREEN NAMES GOING ON MULTIPLE SITES. ALWAYS DOING THE SAME THING NO MATTER THE SUBJECT. ALWAY PLAYING THE ADVERSARIAL INTELLECT THAT REALLY KNOWS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE SUBJECT AT HAND. HE JUST GETS OFF DOING IT! HE PROBABLY LIVES WITH HIS MOMMY AND SHE PAYS FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE HAS RUN SOME FUDGED UP GUILT TRIP ON HER FOR DIVORCING HIS DAD (AS IF IT WERE HER FAULT THAT HE WAS SOME KIND OF CROSS-DRESSING C@CK SUCKER THAT SNEAK OUT AT NIGHT TO MEET HIS "JOHN"). DON'T YOU GET IT SHE HAD TO DIVORCE HIM. HE PROBABLY SITS IN THE BASEMENT WITH ONE HAND ON THE KEYBOARD AND THE OTHER ON HIS, WELL YOU GET IT. NOW WHEN HE GETS BACK ON HE'LL MAKE SOME PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO INSULT ME. YOU SEE THAT'S WHAT GETS SICK-O'S LIKE HIM OFF, BY DRAGGING OTHERS DOWN THROUGH INSULTS, CHILDISH NAME CALLING AND FICTITIOUS LIES ABOUT SUBJECTS HE REALLY KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT. YOU SEE IT'S HOW LITTLE PEOPLE LIKE HIM EXIST WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK AT HOW F@CKED UP THERE OWN LIVES HAVE BECOME, WHILE THEY WERE PUTTING OTHERS DOWN. HE MAKES YOUR (THROUGH HIS EYE'S) LIFE LOOK WORSE. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY HE CAN GO ON IN HIS TWISTED LITTLE MIND. HAVEN'T YOU NOTICED ALL OF THE FREAKY THINGS THAT FIREDRAGON DOES. PETE, SNOOPY, NEAL, DAWN, BEV AND OTHERS ARE JUST HIM. IT'S EASY FOR HIM TO KEEP ALL OF IT STRAIGHT, BEING FAKE, IT'S HIS LIFE. A FICTITIOUS WORLD IS WHERE HE LIVES. O.K. REMEMBER HE HASN'T PROVED ANYTHING THAT I HAVE STATED, NOTHING. NOW HE'S GOING TO GO CRAZY RE-POSTING SITES THAT REALLY DON'T SAY WHAT HE SAY'S THAT THEY SAY. JUST READ THEM. HOW SAD, FIREDRAGON. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE THE TRUTH BEGINS OR ARE YOU THAT FAR GONE? NO ONE BELIEVES YOU, SO GO ON AND CREATE A NEW SCREEN NAME AND VALIDATE YOURSELF. OR HE'LL DO NOTHING AT ALL!! HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD DIDN'T I FREAKDRAGON! I SEE FREAKS LIKE YOU EVERY DAY! YOU BETTER BE LEAVING THE KIDS ALONE TOO. YOU KNOW WHAT THE JUDGE TOLD YOU, SICK-O. OK READY, SET, LIE! quit saying it and start proving it! The fact that a wolf was seen on a cows corpse only proves that the wolf is a scavanger, just like the rest of the non-apex preditors. Not tough enough to kill only to feed on already dead animals!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Answer by Nurgula "Central Asian countries are not part of Russia. That ended with the fall of the Soviet Union, over 10 years ago. The national language of Kyrghyzstan is Kyrghyz, not Russian. Russian is their second language. They are completely different languages" DUDE YOU POSTED THIS BULL BEFORE As "John" CLAIMING YOU HAD LIVED THERE. First of all, when it was a component of Russia, it was called Kyrghystan. It is independent, but is part of the Republic and the language has been officially Russian since 2001. It's official!!! GET IT DUMB KOFF? "note: in December 2001, the Kyrgyzstani legislature made Russian an official language, equal in status to Kyrgyz " From the CIA fact page, http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/kg.html Askar Akayev has been the leader since 1991. He is a Russian of course. YOU TELL THE SAME LIES OVER AND OVER AND HOW YOU HAVE SEEN WOLF FIGHTS .... do you think they waste their time playing with small and weak dogs such as pits? What good are they? They have NO USEFUL purpose in the US. They aren't guard dogs for sure or herding dogs. This is what you called it before. I posted articles from Pravda about wolves there and they kill these dogs easily. They have had to put a bounty on them. THE REASON THE WOLVE HAVE INCREASED IS BECAUSE they took their guns and they can't shoot them and of course, dogs can't kill them. Dog fighting is legal in many Muslim Countries, but not anywhere in Russia. It's not legal in the federation either. You are such a liar. I know people from this area. Your invitations make you sound bi polar. You can't do anything but lie and you are the paper man asking to fight from your hidden place! Haha! Loser! Listen, these people for the most part are very poor. They can't afford to horse around with a useless animal. Livestock Guarding Dogs: Their Current Use Worldwide Riggs "Livestock guarding dogs (LGDs), rather than helping herdsmen move their stock as do typical herding dogs such as collies, protect the animals from external threats. They are usually large (often 70 cm at the withers and >45 kg), independent, stubborn and intelligent. In 1999 the Central (or Mid) Asian Ovcharka was accepted by the United Kennel Club as a working breed under the name Central Asian Shepherd (FoxFire Farms website 2000). It is also known as the Mid or Middle Asian Ovtcharka, Mid-Asiatic Livestock guarding dogs: their current use world wide 21 Sheepdog or Stredneaziastskaya Ovcharka/Owtcharka (Turcoman Int� 2000a). Landry (1999b) lists the Stredneaziastskaya ovcharka and Iounjnorousskaia ovcharka in Russia. Skalicky (1999) has reviewed the work of I. Sehner on the origins of the Mid-Asian Ovcharka, briefly discussed some of its relatives � the Tibetan Mastiff, Mongolian Livestock Guardian Dog and Kirgiz Guardian Dog �and also included the Caucasian Ovcharka as a form of Mid-Asian Ovcharka, though he wrote that the Turkmenian Alabai is closer to the original type of livestock guarding dogs." http://www.canids.org/occasionalpapers/

Answer by family pitbull breeder
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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i dont believe there is any animal with more integrity then the pitbull.when other animals fear for there safety,they do whatever it takes to stay safe.call it stupid or courageous the pitbull will stand its ground even though it knows its in danger.for whatever reason the pitbull has the edge for it's unyielding and unforgiving attempts at conquering its own fears.if you don't want to believe there is something special about this breed as a whole, so be it, but why degrade it then? if there is nothing special then there is nothing to respect or fear leaving no reason for this pitbull "hatred".so just the fact that some of you try to put pits down,only proves that deep down you all have fear or respect towards this magnificent breed, and when you "attack" what you fear or respect, then you yourself are acting similar to a pitbull, only a pit will do it face to face making it much more honorable.and to this firedragons fool, you have not proved nothing other then that you have some kind of obsessive compulsive disorder and you really need some help.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Well trained Ovcharka's will run away with their tail between their legs...they don't confront the wolf. You didn't read the information about the LGD or you are just lying about it. THe site has been posted, dude. Snoopie, they pretend they have experience but you can tell their lies. The difference is that I know this before I look it up and so I know when they are lying. Can you imagine a person that says they lived somewhere and doesn't even know the location, the origin, and the language? Haha! And PITS don't "fight for their lives" Even the old fight Gazette's, which have been posted, showed that the fights RARELY resulted in death. As for the LGD costing $1500 ... are you kidding me? A good hunting dog that is trained is commonly $4500 and more. I don't train LGD for livestock, but I am surprised they are so cheap. Their odd behavior is what surprises the wolf. The dog is associated with people. If the dog does not duck it's tail between its legs, it is killed soon. "The Southrussian Ovcharka is one of the three Ovcharka breeds from Russia. Originally the SRO comes from the Crimea, which is in the Ukraine. The Russian word "Ovcharka" means "sheepdog". " http://home.wxs.nl/~sro.sarisins/genhist.html From the historical painting gallery, "Trailing a small pack of marauding wolves the hunters and their Borzois have just come across the latest victims, several sheep in the flock killed and the shepherd's large ovcharka bloodied in the attack. The pack fled at the hunter's approach�saving the herd dog's life and numerous sheep: the old shepherd and his flintlock were no match for the cunning wolves." http://www.russellhooverstudios.com/pimg3.html "Wolves are usually organized pack hunters, and may leave many dead. Unlike dogs, they usually eat what they kill. In a typical wolf attack on cattle, the first bites are at the base of the tail (the wolf grabs the vulva). The second and third bites are in the flanks, generally both sides. The wolves may begin eating the cow before it has bled to death. Wolves typically immobilize a horse by grabbing the ham string. Wolves have an uncanny ability to spot the slightest limp or other weakness when they are selecting prey. Two yearling wolves can bring down a large cow elk; even healthy domestic livestock is little challenge to a wolf. They can also clear high fences and may have little fear of guard dogs." http://www.sheepscreek.com/rural/pred.html "An attack by a juvenile coyote may resemble a dog attack. Because they are smaller and less experienced, juvenile coyote tend to grab anything they can get � a leg, a back end, even an ear � leaving behind a severely injured and traumatized victim." http://www.sheepscreek.com/rural/pred.html Writing in The Domestic Dog, a compilation of papers about dog behavior and evolution edited by James Serpell, Raymond Coppinger and Richard Schneider wrote: �Livestock guarding has little to do with the legendary brave companion fiercely protecting its master�s property. Rather, guarding dogs protect by disrupting predators by means of behavior that is ambiguous or contextually inappropriate: barking, tail-wagging, social greeting, play behavior, and, occasionally, aggression. Many species of predator will stop a hunting sequence if disrupted and �discovery� by a big dog is often enough to avert predation.� http://www.canismajor.com/dog/livestck.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Dude, you are so RUDE!! "Ovcharka" means "sheepdog". " http://home.wxs.nl/~sro.sarisins/genhist.html IT'S RUSSIAN, GET IT? Answer by family pitbull breeder, "i dont believe there is any animal with more integrity then the pitbull.when other animals fear for there safety,they do whatever it takes to stay safe.call it stupid or courageous the pitbull will stand its ground even though it knows its in danger" Oh, really? All dogs need training. I want my dogs to run away. Sometimes, you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you, but if you run fast enough, it sure won't. Pit bull chased by poodle! Pit bull remains impounded after biting woman By SCOTT ALDIS-WILSON scottaw@gctelegram.com Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:05:01 PM "Susan Waller said she and a friend were walking near the corner of Fair and Center streets the morning of May 9 when they saw a pit bull running and barking northbound on Center Street, apparently being chased by another. As the dogs crossed in front of the women, Waller said, one curved toward them and grabbed her left calf before suddenly letting go and running away. http://www.gctelegram.com/news/2004/may/20/story2.html PIT BULL OWNERS AND SITES CONSTANTLY POST PICTURES OF INJURIES AND BITES PITS INFLICT, THEY SPEAK OF THE FEROCIOUS BEHAVIOR, AND FALSELY SPEAK OF "GLADIATOR ORIGINS" They walk around town with the dog straining at a huge chain and running at everyone. The OTHER type of pit owner is just as bad. They expose their children to pits and are the ones that say, "oh, he doesn't bite." Right. My dog (not a pit) has never bit anyone, mainly because I don't let it. I am not for exterminating the pit, I just want people to control their animal and keep it away from children. Parents owning pits should be subjected to the penal system and fined heavily. This is not a family dog and stupid people should not raise kids. Even TAME, non aggressive animals will bite when provoked...I know that when I was a kid, I expected to be bitten if I jumped into someone's yard to retrieve a ball. Now kids are taught that they are right and the dog is wrong...except the dog doesn't know that. I don't blame pits. I blame stupid owners. PEOPLE EVEN FIGHT HORSES and in the Philipines, they have fought horses as LONGER than pit bulls have fought. Are these animals really "gladiators" or just ghe victim of cruel owners? Norwich Bulletin - 2/8/2004 Horse To Horse Combat The fight is set to begin. The spectators have placed their bets and have surrounded the ring. http://www.listnow.com/helpingpaws/articles/article_239.html Dogs are dogs. Some will keep fighting, some won't. In most cases, it's best they DON'T keep fighting. What purpose does this serve? Another disgusting trait of pit owners ... they constantly stress their dog will die rather than quit or they speak of how no dog can match a pit ...yet SINGLE dogs multiple pits for long periods without losing or being seriously harmed!! "Police Shoot Pit Bull After It Attacks Other Dog Jun 14, 2004 4:10 pm US/Mountain AURORA, Colo. (News 4) Police in Aurora shot a pit bull on Monday morning after it turned on an officer following an attacked on a neighboring dog, News 4 reports. The incident happened Monday morning in the neighborhood of 23rd and Macon when Simon Davis' three pit bulls allegedly attacked Rocky, a Shepherd-Collie mix that was chained to its front porch. Police arrived at Davis' house, and were confronted by the dogs on their return." http://news4colorado.com/crimeaccidentreport/local_story_166144809.html Waller, a teacher at Buffalo Jones Elementary School, said she called the police to report the bite. Though her sweat pants had holes and the bite broke her skin, she said, she didn't need medical attention."

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Mromero says, "ONCE AGAIN FIRELIER HAS NEVER POSTED ANYTHING THAT PROVES THAT THE WOLF CAN RUN UP TO 55mph. THAT WAS THE OPINION OF A MAGAZINE EDITOR.\\ " Wolves can "reach speeds of 55 mph in short sprints, and can run for long distances." http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/animalfaceoff/challenge/challenge6.html It's not just an "editor's opinion" They are a group of experts that specialize in various aspects of animals. Here are SOME of them: Dave Salmoni Dave is a big-cat trainer and zoologist, but his expertise extends beyond the realm of lions and tigers to include a variety of wild animals. He has worked with wildlife in Africa, and his research has encouraged breeding programs for endangered species in zoos around the world. He specializes in returning captive-bred animals to the wild, teaching them hunting and survival skills. He has appeared in many television programs as an authority on big cats, including Discovery's Living With Tigers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Adam Britton Adam first became fascinated by crocodilians when he was about 5 years old. After gaining his Ph.D. in zoology in Britain, he moved to Australia to pursue his dream of working with crocodiles. Adam is currently a senior researcher with Wildlife Management International, based in Darwin, in the Northern Territory of Australia. His research has focused on crocodilian biology, behavior, ecology and conservation management, as well as bioacoustics and the sensory capabilities of crocodiles. He has consulted on numerous television documentaries and is the author of crocodilian.com, a comprehensive online guide to crocodiles and alligators. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Huber Dan is a biologist and Ph.D. candidate working at the University of South Florida's Ichthyology and Functional Morphology Laboratory. His doctoral research focuses on the biomechanics of shark feeding. In particular, Dan's research looks at the generation of bite force by the cranial musculature of sharks. Using custom-designed single-point load cells, he and his colleagues have recorded the first high-precision bite force measurements ever obtained from sharks. Dan's other research has focused on the bite force of the spiny dogfish, the structural design of the electric ray's jaws and the biomechanics of fish locomotion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Samantha Stephens Sam is a zoologist who specializes in wild animals. A zookeeper for nine years, mostly working with African carnivores and hoof stock, she is currently with the Melbourne Zoo in Australia. Sam has an intimate knowledge of lion behavior, acquired while working with groups of the big cats during her zoo career, and several periods of volunteer work with captive wildlife in Asia and Africa. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Frank Mendel Frank is associate professor of pathology and anatomical sciences at the State University of New York, Buffalo. He and his robotics and engineering colleagues in the university's Smilodon Research Project are studying extinct animals such as the saber-toothed tiger by analyzing the physical characteristics and behavior of their living relatives. Frank brings an unrivalled knowledge of big-cat anatomy to the test lab. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Woodward Scott is the director of engineering design services at the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences at the State University of New York, Buffalo. He holds a master's degree in mechanical and aerospace engineering. His area of interest is the use of computers and instrumentation for dynamic measurement, making him an ideal measurement expert for the test lab. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Ellen Rogers Ellen has extensive experience in international conservation and wildlife veterinary medicine, including front-line experience in Uganda and South Africa. In 1993 she conducted field research on the chimpanzees of Uganda's Kibale National Park. She returned to Uganda in 1994 to set up a parasitology lab at Entebbe Zoo and train zoo staff to diagnose and treat infected chimpanzees. Ellen is a graduate of Tufts University and remains affiliated with the university's international wildlife veterinary medicine program. In 1997 she received an African Wildlife Medicine and Conservation Fellowship, which involved five months of practical training in African animal translocation and conservation in South Africa, including practical field experience with renowned South African wildlife veterinarian Cobus Raath. She has subsequently been involved with wildlife veterinary medicine courses in South Africa and Uganda. Prior to entering Tufts, Ellen worked in research in human medicine at the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, Mass. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peggy Callahan A biologist and wolf expert, Peggy graduated from Carleton College in Minnesota with a degree in biology and a passion for native North American wildlife. She has participated in a variety of studies involving black bears, white-tailed deer, red fox and wolves. When federal funding ceased in 1991, she decided to create a nonprofit education and research foundation, the Wildlife Science Center, near Minneapolis. After three years of intensive building and program planning, she opened the doors to the public and is now the center's executive director. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Wiersma Jonathan holds degrees in biomedical physics and a master's degree in biology from Laurentian University in Canada. His in-depth analysis of the hunting strategies, anatomy, morphology and behavior of North American carnivores has generated a mathematical equation that can be used to predict the bite forces of many different animals. Jonathan brings his expertise to Animal Face-Off to calculate the power of the various weapons employed by wild animals. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Watson Jeff has been raising bears for 16 years. A native of Indiana, he is a trainer, daily caregiver and friend to his five bears. His extensive hands-on experience has given him a unique understanding of these dangerous animals. His 1,200-pound Kodiak grizzly named Brody is seen throughout the world on a line of work clothing. Jeff travels around the United States to teach wilderness enthusiasts how to keep themselves safe in bear country, with the objective of saving the lives of both people and wild bears. His knowledge is not confined to grizzlies; he is also an expert on other species, including black bears and polar bears. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Tessler Dave is a biologist living and working in Alaska. He holds degrees in wildlife biology and ecology. Until recently, Dave was a researcher with the Pacific Walrus Research Program at the U.S Geologic Survey, where he spent years capturing, handling and tagging Pacific walruses in an effort to understand their migration patterns, diving behavior, population structure and importance as a subsistence food source. His current research in the Non-Game Program at the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is centered on the conservation of Alaska's biodiversity, preserving rare and threatened species and habitats, and ensuring that common species remain common. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Tara S. Stoinski Tara holds graduate degrees from Oxford University and the Georgia Institute of Technology. She is employed by both Zoo Atlanta and the Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund International and has adjunct positions in the psychology departments at Georgia Tech and Emory University. Her main research interest is the social behavior of group-living primate species. Currently, she is the primary investigator on several studies of social behavior in male gorillas. The research is conducted both in captivity and in the wild. Tara is active within the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) and primatological communities. She is vice chair of the Gorilla Behavioral Advisory Group for AZA, research coordinator for the AZA Ape Taxon Advisory Group and a scientific adviser to the AZA's Gorilla Species Survival Plan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Steve O'Shea A zoologist, Steve is a senior research fellow at the Auckland University of Technology. He is an authority on New Zealand and Southern Ocean Cephalopoda � the highest class of mollusks, which have a distinct head with a beak and muscular tentacles around the mouth. This group includes octopus and squid. A Discovery Quest scientist, Steve has conducted numerous surveys on the effects of human impact on the marine environment, particularly deep-sea commercial bottom trawling and coastal dredging activities. Among his honors is a Visiting Scholar Award from the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago. He has served as visiting curator at the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, Miami, Fla.; Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History, Santa Barbara, Calif.; American Museum of Natural History, New York, N.Y.; South African Museum, Cape Town, South Africa; Museum of Victoria, Melbourne, Australia; Australian Museum, Sydney, Australia; National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C.; National Science Museum, Taichung, Taiwan; Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago, Ill.; and Mote Marine Laboratory, Sarasota, Fla. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Scott Baker Scott is an associate professor in the School of Biological Sciences at the University of Auckland, New Zealand, and earned his Ph.D. in zoology at the University of Hawaii. Since 1985, he has held research and teaching positions with the Smithsonian Institution, the Laboratory of Genomic Diversity at the United States National Cancer Institute, Victoria University, Wellington, and the University of Hawaii, as well as his present position at the University of Auckland. He has been involved in the study of whales and dolphins for nearly 30 years. He is also a New Zealand delegate to the Scientific Committee of the International Whaling Commission, a member of the Cetacean Specialist Group of IUCN - the World Conservation Union, a member of the Society for Marine Mammal Sciences, and associate editor of the journal of Marine Mammal Science and the Journal of Heredity. http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/animalfaceoff/lab/lab.html

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Dead Dogs and politics in the DuNoir- A wolf has killed three dogs on a ranch in the DuNoir Valley, about 25 miles southeast of Yellowstone. Two of the dogs were found dead about a quarter mile from the ranch -- the Diamond G. The third is missing and presumed dead. The dogs were found dead on April 21. Although this is the range of the Washakie Pack, examination of the dead dogs indicates a single wolf killed the dogs. Ed Bangs, head of the Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery was quoted in an Associated Press article that the small number of bites indicated just one wolf. He said that when several wolves are involved the dogs will have more bites. "The question is, 'Can one wolf kill two dogs?"' Bangs said. "The answer is they can if they are fighting." I reported last December that additional wolves had moved into the DuNoir. A black wolf in particular had been observed. This is the first official confirmation of this. I understand that for the time being, they plan to monitor the Washakie wolves more closely and try and collar the new wolves. The alpha male of the Washakie Pack, the late 15M, killed several cows on an area ranch last fall. He was dispatched because officials believed it was 15's second livestock depredation. Further evidence that the Washakie Pack was not involved comes from radio tracking. The dogs were killed on April 21. On April 18 the Washakie Pack, which has three radio-collared members was 20 miles away from the ranch. On April 23, they were five miles from the ranch. Deb Robinett, the wife of the Diamond G's manager, reported seeing a single black wolf the day before the dogs were killed. There was a meeting in Jackson, Wyoming, April 28, between Ed Bangs, head of the Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery Team, Jamie Clark, head of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and other leaders in wolf recovery effort with ranchers from the area. Suffice it to say that meetings of this magnitude don't happen over a few dead dogs. Defenders of Wildlife will pay for the three dogs. While payment is not given for pets or hunting dogs killed by wolves, Defenders pays for livestock and livestock associated losses, such as herding and guard dogs. The Washakie Pack was most recently located in Tappen Creek, about five miles from the DuNoir. In late news, Carter Niemeyer, wolf specialist for Wildlife Services is reportedly now of the opinion that there are no wolves in the DuNoir Valley except for the Washakie pack. Nevertheless, reports of a single black wolf persist.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Click on each photo to greatly enlarge it. Human life in Labrador has been so largely dependent on dogs that a brief chapter devoted to them is almost essential. The real Labrador dog is a very slightly modified wolf. A good specimen stands two feet six inches, or even two feet eight inches high at the shoulder, measures over six feet six inches from the tip of the nose to the tip of the tail, and will scale a hundred pounds. The hair is thick and straight; on the neck it may be six inches in length. The ears are pointed and stand directly up. The appearance generally is that of a magnified Pomeranian. The legs look short, compared with the massive body. The eyes are Japanese, and give the animal a foxy look about the face. The large, bushy tail curves completely over on to the back, and is always carried erect. The colour is generally tawny, like that of a gray wolf, with no distinctive markings, but a beautiful black and white breed has grown up, and furnishes the handsomest dogs. The general resemblance to wolves is so great that at Davis Inlet, where wolves come out frequently in winter, the factor has seen his team mixed with a pack of wolves on the beach in front of the door, and yet could not shoot, being unable to distinguish one from the other. Settlers have succeeded in getting good skins by pegging out a female dog in heat, and shooting the wolves that come down after her. The wolves themselves are larger than the dogs. They may measure in length as much as seven feet eight inches, from nose to tail. They are very bold ; on one occasion wolves lurked around a solitary house in Big Bay till they had carried off the four dogs, one by one, and left only after capturing the cat. The dogs retain these same ancestral habits. Some summer settlers at Batteau have goats at their small shacks. About ten miles away at Red Point lived a hungry team of dogs. One night a goat was missing. The crime was traced to the dogs. Men with guns waited their return, with no result except much loss of time. The dogs never came near the settlement by day. Yet, before the people left, the dogs had successfully carried off every goat without suffering any losses.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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The process of domestication evenually crippled the wolf strain involved, as their jaws got shorter and their teeth crowded, eliminating one of their main hunting advantages, powerful jaws combined with very specialized tooth development. Although some huskies continue to treat humans as equals (as do wolves in captivity), none of the 200 distinct breeds of domestic dogs are anything like wolves. This is most notable in the size of their brains - in a wolf-sized domestic dog, the brain is often as much as 20% smaller than in wolves (McLoughlin). Despite this, many humans today continue to think of wolves in much the same way as they do their spaniel. Unable to contemplate the wilderness because they have so successfully insulated themselves from it, they often try to use their dogs and wolves as a bridge to understanding, much to the detriment of the dignity of the wolf.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Haha!! Jerry says, "are not attacking wheelchair bound people.they are the best of the best. and that is what counts.all this crap you people talk means " Dude you talk as though the pit is invincible, as though just because a little dog was used to fight .. that all pits are invincible. What you don�t know is that just about all pits in mobs .. three, four, or seven �. Are FIGHTING pits. No one owns that many dogs just for fun, especially dogs that cause so much trouble. Just a regular dog defended its house and fought three �game� pits bred to be �invincible� An elderly person in a wheel chair knocks the crap out of a bunch of attacking, invincible �game� pits and another woman just brushes off the bite. They are just dogs. They aren�t wild animals and they aren�t wolves. Contrary to a dog that doesn�t have to kill to survive (pit fighters don�t have to kill to survive) the wolf must kill, and he kills large animals. The pit is selected by idiot low lives that buy them. The wolf is the most vast predator in the world and has an incredible gene pool. They only live about four years and are killed by wolves when they loose their edge. That�s selection. They start out physically superior. The are bigger and meaner. So, who would win? A wolf would kill a pit, easily. Pits today were not bred for anything but eating cereal dinners.

Answer by O
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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This firedragon is so off in the head!He says he has pictures of a presa canario dog, that had its nose bitten off by a wolf! he get on another site and says the owner was BEAR HUNTING with two of the dogs,when a wolf attacks and does its damage.That is crazy these stupid dogs could not hunt a bear.That idiot is just plain messed up in the head.HE BLOWS OFF VAST AMOUNTS OF STUPIDITY.PREAS CANARIO DOGS ARE GOOD FOR GUARDING AND THATS ABOUT IT.THEY CAN'T HUNT BEARS,CAN'T TRACK,CAN'T BE TRUSTED TO EVEN COME BACK TO THEIR MASTER IF USED TO HUNT.HE THINKS PEOPLE ARE STUPID AND HE CAN SAY ALL THESE LIES.WELL IDIOT JERK I KNOW ABOUT DOGS AND YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT LIE AND USE MANY DIFFERENT SCREEN NAMES TO TRY TO MAKE YOURSELF LOOK GOOD.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Katah!! Please, don't be so dumb. There are NO wolf/pit fights. Come on dude, no one would fight a pit against a wolf. His dog would be dead. What kind of fight is that, plus the wolf might kill the handlers. Snoopy said, "Answer my question. Have you seen a pit bull kill three rhodisian ridge backs at once?Can you find a newspaper or anything as I have for you. Be fair. people whos dogs are attacked bt a wolf report that the wolf grabs the dog by the back of the neck and shakes it until its neck breaks. They also leave puncture marks in the dogs lungs.(long teeth)" I posted where three pits were whipped by a shep/collie mix. The pits were game fighting dogs too. Whenever there are a bunch of them, that's what they use them for.....pit bull owners are such loser!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Answer by Kayatah, I just read your entire post. Sorry You DO have some good ideas there, but you don't understand dog fighting. People such as the "guy from Russia that did not know it was Russia" lie about their origin and what they know. He said he's seen many fights and that the pit whipped the wolf. He posted earlier as John. The same lie. Oh, he had seen it. I am from an area that has pit fighters. They are low lifes and you run into them in wrecking yards and at the convenience store. They don't make a lot of money fighting dogs and they certainly wont get their dog killed if they can avoid it. Some have many dogs and they will fight each other. I have spent time in Alaska and lived in Prudo bay. The Eskimo is very non violent for the most part ... but there are non Eskimo types that fight animals. There's no reason for fight a wolf. The money is on the bet. You don't get a prize for winning. So, two dogs evenly matched by age and weight go at it. Only someone that knew nothing of dog fighting would think they had fights with wolves. EVERYONE knows that a wolf would kill a dog in less than a minute. I am surprised that there aren't people saying they saw a polar bear fighting a pit!!! It's a child's story, it isn't even real!!! When you know the truth, you don't even think about stuff like that! It just doesn't happen. It's not real. When I was a kid, I would hear things like, "I was in France and they have milk in pyradmid cartons and so the milk never spoils. The reason the wolf always loses in these stories is because the people telling them are punks and liars. It doesn't happen.

Answer by whatever
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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i guess i should of clarified my point better.it was only thought to be a lone wolf,not proven with bite comparisons,so to say it was a lone wolf for sure is inaccurate.2nd the fact that the third dog is missing leads me to believe there was more then one wolf,a single wolf CAN NOT carry a large dog out of its range by itself, not to mention there would of been some form of drag marks in the ground.the other two dogs were a distance also which could only mean they were running away,or after or carried by more then one wolf.if they were running away,they were caught from behind which is an extreme disadvantage and also proves they were curs.if they were running after it,the wolf would run straight towards its pack,and the dogs didn't stand a chance.and last if they were carried away then you know for sure it was more then one wolf.and like i asked before,would a single wolf really need to take on three large dogs for food?to much meat,to much risk,to much b.s.to answer your question,there is no doubt in my mind that even a game breed pit would be killed by three of these dogs,the same with the wolf.so in conclusion, the story does not answer the question of who would win.

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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well snoop -i do not think you are going to convince a wolf to fight one on one in the wild.there has been wolfs grown adult,large males caught in rubber padded steel traps,matched by people wanting to take a certain dog mans,top dog as well as the big bucks,MATCHED.ALL IT WAS -A DESPERATE ANIMAL FIGHTING FOR ITS LIFE,THAT LOST TO THE PIT.if you want to know a wild anlmal that CAN KILL A PIT BULL-MT.LION,AND A WOLVERINE IN MANY CASES.SEE I WILL TELL WHAT A PIT CAN'T HANDLE.I WOULD NOT PUT MY MONEY ON A PIT AGAINST A MT. LION NEVER.A WOLVERINE THE PIT HAS A CHANCE.NOT GOOD,BUT IF THE ODDS ARE RIGHT THERE IS BETS ON THE PIT.NOT ME THOUGH,THATS A SUCKER BET.NO YOU WILL NOT GET A PIT BULL OUT IN THE WOODS.BY HIS LONESOME ANYWAY.THESE FIGHT GUYS DO NOT LET THEIR DOGS ROAM.THEY ARE WORTH 25-60 GRAND EACH AFTER THEY WIN 5-8 TOP MATCHES.SO THEY AIN'T GOIN LET THEM ROAM AROUND AND GET INTO FREE FOR ALLS.ANY DOG COULD BE KILLED BY A PACK OF WOLVES OR DOGS FOR THAT MATTER.

Answer by Kayatah
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Firedragon you are correct in the assessment that I do understand dog fighting. I find it to be offensive and disgusting to take an animal that would gladly lay down its life for its master only for them to abuse this fact by deliberately placing the poor animal in harms way. Like I said in my earlier post I do not claim to know if a wolf has been put in a pit with these dogs or not but the danger that is involved in keeping a predator such as a wolf is very high risk, to a much higher degree if it is made to be aggressive. The fact still exists that a subordinate is very unwilling to fight it is always the alphas place to gauge and determine if the pack will fight or flee. As for Whatever�s post of wolves not being able to carry a dog for very long distances, there was a report made a few years ago of a wolf killing and carrying off a large malamute. The shocking part of this was that the owner said the dog was completely off the ground�it was not being dragged but carried completely, they found the remainder of the carcass miles away�.I will attempt to find the book I read this in and post it. This disturbed me greatly considering the malamute is my dog of choice having owned several.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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Kayatah Submitted on 6/23/2004 Another nobody that has no proof. show me the proof that a wolf can bite through a moose femur. It seems to me with all of the zoos' breeders, and experts that track the wolf, and people like you who make these claims that you would be able to produce a video of them doing it. Even a cow femur or at least a deer femur. You guys state that it is a "Scientific Fact" however there is no known evidence. I'VE ASKED NOW FOR ALMOST A MONTH FOR THAT VERY EVIDENCE, NOT SOME BUNGHOLE'S OPINION LIKE YOU, BUT REAL EVIDENCE. A ZOO VIDEO, A DOCUMENTARY ANY F$CKING THING. BUT IDIOTS JUST KEEP MAKING STATEMENTS THAT ARE UNFOUNDED, UNPROVABLE, IRRESPONSIBLE AND JUST PLAIN LIES. IF IT WERE A SCIENTIFIC FACT YOU WOULD CERTAINLY BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THIS OBVIOUS FACT. BUT NONE OF YOU CAN! NOW I'M SURE THAT YOU WILL RESPOND WITH A "CUT AND PASTE" SOMEONES OPINION WITHOUT VIDEO OR PICTURES AND CHUNK OUT A FEW PARAGRAPHS THAT PROVE JACK-SH@T. JUST PROVE IT. THERE HAVE BEEN MEN THAT HAVE LIVED WITH WOLF PACKS FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, STILL NO EVIDENCE OF WHAT YOU PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING. NONE........ SO GOOD SIR, PROVE YOUR "FACT". OR YOU ARE FULL OF CRAP AND SHOULD KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT! I ALSO SEE THAT NO ONE HAS TAKEN ME UP ON MY LAST POSTS. WHY? THEY CAN'T. I'M RIGHT I'VE LIVED WITH THESE ANIMALS ALL OF MY LIFE THEY AVERAGE 70-100LBS AND IT WOULD BE PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM (THE WOLF) TO DO WHAT THEY, YOU ARE SAYING THAT THEY CAN. THE BULLSH@T THAT YOU GUYS ARE SPREADING WITH OUT KNOWING THE FACTS ONLY CONTRIBUTES TO THE LIKE PRE-WWII HYSTERIA THAT, ALMOST DROVE THE WOLF TO EXTINCTION. YOUR NOT DOING EITHER OF THE SPECIES ANY GOOD. NEITHER OF THEM ARE AS BAD AS YOU GUYS ARE MAKING THEM OUT TO BE............. NO MATTER HOW IT MAKES YOU FEEL!!! FIRELIER, FEEL FREE TO ANSWER ANY OF WHAT I'VE WROTE. IF YOU CAN, NO "CUT AND PASTE" OR "PLAGIARISM'S" OF SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK. IT IS STILL PLAGIARISM IF YOU ALTER IT TO FIT YOUR AGENDA.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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A wolf can drag off a dog. Even something bigger. My cockerspaniel can drag me. Tell me why the discovery channel matched a wolf against a mountain lion and not a pit bull? O.k. with help a wolf can take down a moose. Why would it have trouble dragging a dog. You have by passed ignorant and gone on to stupid once again. You keep saying incorrect info about wolves and it's really starting to annoy me. I have here with me six books I have read recently about wolves. Thats not even including all the info I have read on the internet. PLUS! I HAD A WOLF BIOLOGIST TELL YOU YOUR WRONG!. I also talked to a zoologist. Theres no fking way. Doug Smith says it takes huge sheep dogs to rebuff a wolf attack. Why would anyone listen to you over an expert. They would have to be stupid like you I guess. Now shut up with your crap rain man!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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Dear Firepete you truly didn't believe that listing names would convice anyone of anything. In all of those listings not one of them said that the wolf can run 55mph. So I did some research on those individuals, they say nothing of the sort. Actually not one of those people stated anything of the sort. UNFORTUNATELY FIREPETE IF A LIST OF NAMES OF BIOLIGISTS THAT HAVE SAID NOTHING ABOUT A WOLF BEING ABLE TO REACH 55mph AND CERTAINLY HAVE NOT PROVEN IT. YOUR LYING AGAIN, THEY DID NOT LAZE OR RADAR THE ANIMAL. HOWEVER WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN LAZED OR RADARED IT HAS BEEN AT SPEEDS AROUND 35-40mph. YOU SHOULD REALLY GROW UP AND COMPREHIND THAT THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN OPINION AND EVIDENCE. SEE YOU KEEP POSTING OPINION AND NOT EVIDENCE. SEE A FACT IS LIKE THIS YOU ARE A RETARD THAT IS PROVEN EVERY TIME YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH. AN OPINION IS 98% OF WHAT YOU POST (CUT AND PASTE). THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL "EVIDENCE" IDIOT

Answer by family pitbull breeder
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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firedragons, you tend to believe the pitbull is unsafe, yet you also claim the damage they inflict is minimal.both these beliefs don't go hand in hand. I have to agree with you though that it makes me sick when i see these sissys walk there dogs around like there invincible, and i strictly screen buyers of my dogs. But i have to disagree with your theory about most pitbulls and children. Unfortunately we have allot of poor pitbull owners everywhere that make their dogs unsafe for the public,but their is a number of great pitbulls who can be trusted and are truly devoted to their familys like any other breed. I'm curious to why you feel so strongly about this subject.I'm sorry if you had some bad experiences like some others have, but i could show you countless people who love and trust this breed like nothing else and have never had any legal or medical reason to think otherwise. you have every right to hate pitbulls,and i don't blame you for it because of these sissys who want a tuff dog. these people are ruining a great breed, and us responsible owners are paying for it.hate them,not their dogs who are just as much victims as are the people attacked by them. i have 1 male and 2 females now,and have owned 7 others over the years.I have yet to see any human aggression out of any of them, and if i did, i would put them down. Human aggression is not typical of the breed and should not be tolerated,let alone trained into them. Although some of the working bloodlines have been successful at protective training, these bloodlines are not true to form pitbulls, but could still be great dogs none the less sense they are not as game as their fighting counterparts.if you were a dogman that had to be in the pit with game breed bulldawgs to break it up, or defang a dog would you want those dogs to be human aggressive? well if you answered no then you have something in common with every single game pitbull breeder in the world through out history,IT IS NOT TOLERATED!!!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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SNOOPY? the animal channel, TV for your facts? that shows your level of inteligence! TV for the most part is NOT REAL. IF YOU PAY CLOSE ATTENTION THEY ON THE SHOW STATE THAT "THIS EXPERIMENT AND IS BY NO MEANS SCIENTIFIC WE ARE JUST PRETTY MUCH GUESSING". A LITTLE DISCLAIMER THAT FLASH'S ON THE BOTTOM OF THE SCREEN. NOW THOSE QUOTATIONS ARE FOR A REASON. THEY STATED IT ON THE FREAKEN SHOW. THATS THE PROBLEM WITH ALL OF YOU FIRECHILDREN, YOU GET YOUR "EVIDENCE" FROM T.V. SHOWS AND OPINIONATED WEB PAGES, NO REAL PROOF. I.E. PICTURES, VIDEO, DOUBLE BLIND CLINICAL OR UNIVERSITY STUDY'S. NOT SOME BULLSH!T THAT SOMEONE THAT YOU AND NO BODY ELSE KNOWS. THATS FOOLISH YOU REALLY SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO YOUR MOTHER ABOUT THE TV. WHAT NEXT YOU SAW IT ON BUGS BUNNY!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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Snoopy...a wolf fight with a dog is less that a few minutes. If you read the herders and ranchers, they don't even have time to go out the door. The wolf crushes the skull in one bite and the dog is dead. Most dogs are used to being able to bite and their mouths will lock, but a wolf will rip their entire jaw and muzzle out. I have seen this before. Ask the wildlife person how they find dogs. The head is usually gone. Yes, Snoopy, the wolf will even rip a huge hold in the dog's chest. It is gruesome. I have seen what the wolf can do and don't need to see more. It's a big contrast to a dog. It's also sad because the "green people" insist that wolf hunting not be allowed and ranchers must put up with livestock loss and dog herder and guard dog loss. Snoopy, do you see how stupid pit bull people are? Pits would fight sometimes for an hour, and they would be bleeding, but still alive. A wolf fight will not last long because the teeth are so lethal. Most of the dogs I have seen have no head after the eyes....the muzzle is just gone. Some dogs try to run. Then you see the other wounds. Sure, use my stuff Snoopy. Anyway,pit people glamorize dog fighting and the horrors that occur ...they seem to get off to the animal being "dangerous" and then they wonder why people are hostile. However, the pit is only dangerous to the elderly, infirm, and young children. Wolves can be dangerous to anyone! They are killers. Soon, they will start ripping us apart when they lose their natural fear. Ranchers should be able to kill all they find. Pits cannot even damage the skull of a baby. They just don't have the strength and you see it over and over again. 4-Year-Old Critical After Pit Bull Attack Wave 3 TV, www.Wave3.com By James Zambroski LaRue County Dep. Sheriff Russell McCoy said the dog apparently tore off part of Emily's scalp Emily Stinnett was playing on a swing set in the backyard of her dad's home at the time of the attack. The family pet, a pit bull, was chained to a stake nearby when the dog's chain tie-down pulled out of wet dirt. http://www.unchainyourdog.org/news/040428Child_Attacked.htm

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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STILL NO PROOF FIRELIER SO YOU'VE DONE WHAT YOU ALWAYS DO CHILD. HURL INSULTS AND NO PROOF! I'M NOT SURE HOW TO GET THIS ACROSS TO YOU MAGAZINE, NEWS PAPER, AND TV ARE NOT PROOF. NO PROOF, NO PROOF, NO PROOF. WHERE IS THE VIDEO OF A WOLF RUNNING 55mph. THEIR STRUCTURE WILL NOT ALLOW FOR THAT. AND THAT IS EASILY PROVED. AS OF TODAY WE TOOK THE FEMUR OF A COW TO A MACHINE PRESS. WHAT DO YOU THINK IT TOOK (PSI) TO CRUSH THAT FEMUR? KEEPING IN MIND THAT IT IS SMALLER THAN THAT OF A MOOSE. 3604 PSI TO CRUSH, SEE THATS PROOF FIRELIER. AND JUST LIKE I TOLD YOU BEFORE WHEN I PUNKED YOU OVER THE PSI ARGUMENT;PSI IS PSI NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT. THE WOLF CAN NOT DO IT. ALTHOUGH OVER TIME THEY CAN CHEW IT DOWN, JUST LIKE THE COW FEMURS THAT I GET FOR MY AB. YOU DON'T ADDRESS MY POSTS BECAUSE I PUNK YOU EVERY TIME YOU DO! LIKE THE TIME YOU TRYED TO SCARE EVERYONE BY SAYING THAT THEY WERE "THREATENING" YOU. YOUR SO FULL OF SH!T. I CALLED YOUR BLUFF AND MY FRIENDS. I ALSO CALLED THE LSP AND THEY LED ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. YOU JUST ANOTHER PAPER TIGER THAT DOESN'T KNOW YOUR ASS FROM A HOLE IN THE GROUND. YOU WATCH THE DICOVERY CHANNEL AND THE COME AND TELL US THAT YOU JUST WENT TO RUSSIA TO HUNT POLAR BEAR. YOU REALLY DON'T THINK ANYONE BELIEVES YOU RIGHT.>? YOU MAKE STATEMENTS ABOUT COLORADO AND SAY THAT IT'S FLAT AND BROWN. THATS ALL I NEED TO SAY ABOUT THAT. ANYBODY WHO CAN READ A MAP KNOWS HOW FULL OF SH!T THAT STATEMENT WAS. SO THEN YOU HURL SOME EXCUSES AND INSULTS AND CHANGE THE SUBJECT. FOOLISH CHILD ITS CALLED BEING THREATENED LITTLE ONE! YOU FEEL THREATENED NOW THAT YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT LYING. SO THE BEST YOU CAN DO IS DEFLECT THE QUES. THAT I ASKED AND HURL SOME INSULTS. SO YOU DO OR DON'T HAVE PROOF. ALL THAT YOU HAVE DONE IS "CUT AND PASTE" BULLSH!T. YOU TELL LITTLE STORIES THAT IF YOU GO BACK YOU ARE CONSTANTLY CONTRADICTING YOURSELF. I DON'T HAVE TO CALL A D.O.W. RANGER I KNOW ABOUT 20 OF THEM. THE AVERAGE FAMILY PET IS IN TROUBLE, BUT NO ONE HAS EVER HEARD OF A PIT GETTING CAUGHT. AND MOST LIKE 94% OF THE DOGS ATTACKED ARE ATTACKED BY THE PACK NOT JUST ONE WOLF. SO DID ANYBODY NOTICE THAT AFTER ALL OF HIS CHILDISH INSULTS AND LIES HE STILL HAS NO PROOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST ANSWER THE QUESTIONS WITH REAL PROOF, NOT JUST SOME ARTICLE THE YOU CUT AND PASTED AGAIN, OR SUBMIT TO THE TRUTH JUNIOR

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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mromero, the names listed were the people on the Discovery team and the site was cited. You are wrong so much, you have no credibility. Mromero, you mentioned PLAGIARISM. You don't seem to know what PLAGIARISM is.... Lets start with a definition: Plagiarize 'pla-je-,riz also j - -\ vb -rized; -riz�ing vt [plagiary] : to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (a created production) without crediting the source vi: to commit literary theft: present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source - pla�gia�riz�er n FROM: Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary 9th ed, (Springfield, Ma: Merriam 1981, p. 870). For short quotes, use quotation marks in the sentence. An example is "CFC's: These substances are also of concern in connection with the destruction of stratospheric ozone" [Bunce, N. Environmental Chemistry (Winnipeg: Wuerz, 1994, p. 19)] b. For longer quotes it is appropriate to indent the entire passage: http://science.widener.edu/svb/essay/plagiar.html Show where a work has not properly been given credit or the work put in quotation marks or indented. Besides, this is not a paper writing class. It is a forum. Get over it!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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I don't really see how watching or getting info off tv is childlike. It was footage of wolves attacking a bear. Do you think they staged it? Firedragon- I'm very fond of wolves. I don't think any animal should be eliminated from this earth. The wolves were here in this country long before us. So were the indians. The indians lived with them until the ranchers ancestors came over and took their land slaughtering their women and children then killing off the wolf. When wolves kill livestock the rancher is paid for the loss. Sometimes they can get money for the dogs. You can ask Doug Smith about this kind of stuff. The only cases in america of a wolf biting a person is when they have tried to hand feed them, or if the wolf was sick. There is no proof of anything else. Every book I've read talks about the lies put in the paper about wolves attacking people. People fear what they do not know. Watch the national geographic video with David Mech and the artic wolves. The alpha female trusts him and lets him crawl right into her den and videotape the cubs. They even begged for food from him. Just like they did thousands of years ago. No wolf tried to attack or showed any agression toward him.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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Answer by family pitbull breeder Submitted on 6/24/2004 Rating: Not yet rated Rate this answer: N/A Worst Weak OK Good Great firedragons, you tend to believe the pitbull is unsafe, yet you also claim the damage they inflict is minimal.both these beliefs don't go hand in hand. hmmmm.... What are you talking about? I said that the pit was dangerous to the child, the infirm, and the very elderly, but that the pit had NEVER killed a healthy adult human. I know you made an error here, but sine I have said this at least ten times, please read the posts. Answer by mromero says, "while i/m at it I ALSO REMEMBER YOU STATEING THAT TOSAS WERE BEING USED BY SOME PD'S FOR "NUTRILIZING" THE PIT BULL DOG. I HAPPENED TO WORK FOR THAT DEPT. FORM 1990 TO 1996. ALTHOUGH I KNEW YOU WERE FULL OF IT I MADE SOME CALLS ANYWAY." Haha! Loser! The court case that talks about this is public record!!! Anyone can look it up and you didn't call anyone, liar. If you did, give us the number and the person you spoke to! I will call them. ANYONE here can check the OFFICIAL case themselves!!! Haha! LOSER!! Anyway, you are barely even literate. You have to at least have a highschool diploma and the test is competitive. You might have worked as a janitor. "(RT 4622-4623.) When asked if she knew Presas were a dangerous, aggressive, and violent breed, Knoller acknowledged that Presas �have a history of being a war dog and a fighting dog.� (RT 4828, 4938.) Knoller was aware that Schneider and Bretches sent Noel a copy of a book called Manstopper, and a newsletter called �Gripper.� (RT 4824-4827.) The �Gripper� newsletter discussed the police department�s use of Presa Canarios to disable pit bulls. (RT 4827.) http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/sfdogattack/caknoller41103cabrf.pdf

Answer by family pitbull breeder
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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firedragons- what i meant was i don't understand why you feel like all pitbulls are a danger to society if there not a threat to most humans or even each other in the pit as you say.I have read allot of yours and others messages,and im left wondering why you attack the breed and not the people who raise them poorly.i don't want a verbal war,only a chance to maybe resolve some false info. that plagues this great breed.i personally am disgusted with about 75% of pitbull owners and have taken some unlawful actions against a few.you see, this was not a breed meant for the general public,but like it or not it has exploded in popularity for all the wrong reasons.these amatures that don't understand what a "pitbull" is have now helped to destroy the reputation along with the quality of the dog.i am split on how i feel about this bad publicity.part of me feels sorry for my dogs and some others for the fact that people hate them.the other side of me thinks maybe this bad publicity will help the pitbull lose its popularity, thus helping the breed from being breed and owned by the wrong people.as far as what a pitbull can or cant do to a person,i will not comment because thats not what the breed is for and besides i have to agree that they are not much of a threat, and i could easily kill one with my bare hands,in fact i have.i once confronted a drug dealer down the block from me about his dog running loose.it turned into a fight,and his roughly 65 lb. pit latched on to my hip.as i punched the dog on top of the head it would just release and rebite down my leg.then when he had my ankle i got my boot on the top of the neck and pushed down until the neck broke.anyways, my point is i agree with allot you say but i have also seen a great side of this animal that contradicts much of what you and others may have seen or experienced.i am tired of my dogs being some peoples targets and i now target bad owners for my problems.so to anyone who was walking down the street showing of their dogs,and you got hit from behind with a bat and your dog is missing now, now you know why.i know there is a few of you out there...lol

Answer by Dan
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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presa canarios are not fighting dogs.that the police would use any dog against any other dog,is a stupid lie.the cops will shoot a dog that attacks them.they have that right.firedrag just makes up whatever,insult everyone with his stupid lies.what do you hope to gain fool?people know the pit bull can fight very well.thats what they were bred to do,idiot-ass.why would they be weak or unable to bite?thats just a fool thats a cry-baby talking.we have seen pits whip the tar out of dogs 2-3 times their size.grap bulls by the nose and bring them to a halt.hold a 300+lbs. hog by the ear,until they can be tied.no other dog is as strong or hard-biting.they are fearless in any ones eyes thats seen them work.you are just a cocky -mouthie boy,that thinks hes way smarter than is true.you lie about everything.loser idiot punk-boy!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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Snoopy, do you want to pay the hundreds of thousands of dollars each state is paying for wolf depredation? A few wolves is fine, but they are the most widespread predator in the world. The people that want to force them on us are not the ones paying for the damage. They are eating up all the game and then they eat the livestock. People are paying thousands for dogs alone and they won't pay for hunting dogs. The sad thing is that the farmers are only being compensated for a fraction of their costs. I am OK with having wolves, in moderation, but there's no reason to have thousands of them. We need to let ranchers get licenses and blow some of them away. Do you know how much the government pays government trackers that are licensed to shoot wolves? Too much money. I am for using government trackers to hunt animals that have become extremely dangerous, but a rancher that finds a wolf eating his dog should be able to shoot him. They are shooting the wolves illegally in many cases now. They should be able to do it legally. Are you Mromero? National Geographic recently said wolves kill 80 people in India alone...the Russia Federation states and Russia has people dying by the possible hundreds. When wolves were widespread, the Brittish reported 600 people killed in one province along. Wolf depredation in Idaho alone has increased dramatically: Economic Impacts of Wolf Reintroduction By Jay Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Grey wolves (Canis lupus) were virtually eliminated from the Western United States by the 1930s. Fear of wolves by early American settlers combined with livestock losses began a national campaign for mass extermination. The U.S. Department of the Interior�s Predatory Animal and Rodent Control Service spent millions of dollars hiring and supplying trappers to eliminate any trace of the wolf in the wild. Federal support for elimination came in the form of subsidized bounty programs that started in the late 1800s and continued as late as 1965, offering $20 to $50 per wolf. Public input changed the view of the United States Government, and wolves received legal protection with the passage of the Endangered Species Act (ESA) of 1973. Reintroduction Canadian wolves began to successfully recolonize Northwestern Montana in the early 1980s, and in 1995 and 1996, 66 wolves from Southwestern Canada were reintroduced to Yellowstone National Park (31 wolves) and central Idaho (35 wolves). The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service began recovery efforts in Idaho with the release of 15 wolves in 1995, and another 20 were added in 1996. The Idaho wolf population had steadily increased to an estimated number of at least 261 in 2001, representing a minimum of 17 packs. Of those, 14 packs have an estimated 82 pups on the ground that will be of reproductive age within 24 months1. From a recovery stand point the reintroduction has been quite successful. Wolf numbers have grown ten-fold over this 5 to 6 year period. Unfortunately, there is an ever-increasing negative side to this success story. In 1995 Idaho Wildlife Services began its first responses to reported wolf depredations to livestock and livestock guarding dogs. History of Wolf Depredation Fiscal Year 1995 Wildlife Services conducted 2 investigations of reported wolf predation to cattle, but neither of these reports was confirmed. Fiscal Year 1996 Wildlife Services conducted 6 investigation of reported wolf predation. In 2 of these cases, wolves were confirmed as the cause of death for 1 calf and 30 sheep. In the other cases wolf depredation was probable2 on 2 claves and possible3 on 2 claves, 8 sheep, and 1 livestock guarding dog. Wildlife services expenditures were an estimated $16,000 in federal funds on addressing wolf related issues, conducting depredation investigations, and wolf control actions. Fiscal Year 1997 Wildlife Services responded to 11 complaints of possible wolf predation on livestock. Four of these were confirmed wolf depredations, 0 probable, and 4 other. Confirmed wolf predations were 1 calf, and 29 sheep. Possible predation attributed to the death of 2 calves and 1 cow. Expenditures = About $20,000 in Federal funds Fiscal Year 1998 Wildlife Services conducted 15 wolf predation investigations. Of these investigations, 5 involved confirmed wolf predation, 0 probable, 5 possible, and 6 other. Confirmed livestock depredations were 4 calves, 4 cows, and 5 sheep. Probable depredations were 9 calves and 4 sheep. Possible depredations were 2 calves, 10 sheep, and 1 bull. Expenditures = About $36,820 in Federal funds Fiscal Year 1999 Wildlife Services responded to and investigated 50 reports of possible wolf predation. Of those 50, 15 were confirmed wolf predation. Confirmed livestock depredation included 9 calves, 1 cow (bred heifer), 57 sheep, 1 livestock-guarding dog, 2 livestock guarding dogs (injured). Probable depredations were 5 calves and 10 sheep. Possible depredations were 11 calves, 1 cow, and 1 horse. Expenditures = $77,722 in Federal funds. Fiscal Year 2000 Wildlife Services responded to 55 complaints of wolves killing, harassing or chasing livestock and/or livestock guarding dogs. Of those 55 investigations, 24 were designated confirmed. The numbers of livestock depredations are as follows: confirmed, 15 calves, 55 sheep, 3 horses, 1 burro (harassing/chasing) cattle and stock dogs (unspecified amount) (harassing/chasing). Probable depredations were 2 calves, 3 sheep, and an unspecified amount of harassing/chasing horses and cattle. Possible depredations were 5 calves, 47 sheep, 2 goats, and 1 stock dog. Expenditures�Idaho Wildlife Services spent $135,880 in Federal funds responding to complaints of reported wolf depredation and for other wolf related costs. Fiscal Year 2001 Wildlife Services conducted 34 wolf related investigations in Idaho. Of the 34 reported wolf-related investigations conducted, 22 involved confirmed depredation or involvement. Total animal numbers are as follows: confirmed killed, 10 calves, 1 cow, 62 sheep, 1 colt injured, 1 incident involving human safety concerns, 1 guard dog killed, 7 incidents of various animals being harassed/chased unspecified amounts. Probably wolf depredations were 8 calves, 1 cow, 2 sheep, and 1 incident of cattle being harassed. Possible depredations were 2 calves, and 2 calves injured. Expenditures = Idaho Wildlife Services spent approximately $158,290 in Federal funds responding to complaints of reported wolf predation, conducting control, preventative control, and management actions, and for other wolf related costs. (Idaho Wildlife Services 2001) http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/range456/hot-topics/wolves-cattle.htm In WI, it's The cost of removing depredating wolves and either translocating them to suitable habitat or euthanizing them is estimated at $15,000 to $30,000 per year. Therefore the total cost of wolf management activities is estimated at from $165,000 to $200,000 per year http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/info/wolfmanplan/final/exec_summary.htm Again, we need to limit the number of wolves severely. You might think it's kinder to have a deer die by tooth and claw, but in fact, a bullet is more humane. How would you prefer to die?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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Rickj, there have been many posts about police that kick the pit and they run away or also even kids that have fought off the dog. Give me a break. They have comparatively weak jaws. I have nothing but loathing and disgust for Mech. The problem is that wild animals are wild�in countries where wolves have less fear of humans, they common attack and kill them. I know that many believe themselves somehow superior to our ancestors in every way, but they aren�t. Our ancestors were faced with starvation and death or killing off the wolf. They chose to kill the wolf. The cost of having wolves has grown dramatically And farmers are NOT compensated�they are given some money, but maybe only 15-20% of the total loss. Near FL, shark attacks went up dramatically because people were feeding sharks underwater by hand. Sharks lost their fear of man. The only thing protecting the trainer � say Coy Horn from the tiger was this fear. When the fear was gone, Coy Horn was also gone. There are those that believe a wolf life is more precious than a human�s life�I can only say that if wolves start killing commonly again .. it will be you or your loved ones that will die and not mine. The people that want to restrict the forest the most is always the person that doesn�t go into it. I can remember the young female jogger that was killed by a mountain lion, leaving two small children under four years old. The lion also left two cubs. People in CA were donating to the lion five to one over the children of the victim. There�s something wrong here. Wild animals are wild. They kill large animals and the only thing that saves us is that they are afraid of us or the forests would be very dangerous. ANYONE knowing ANYTHING about genetics would be aware that man became acquainted with a mutation, a very weak animal with childlike characteristics. These animals could not survive in the wild alone and so they ended up being companions for man. Wild animals must have that wild instinct to survive. Nature does this to us�dogs left in the wild, the ones that survive, are quite vicious. That couple recently that was eaten by bears�.yea, he had pictures of himself with bears too and how cute. Except a bear is a wild animal. Eating him might have saved lives. Mech did this for money. It sells tickets and advertising. It disgusts me because his behavior will result in lives lost. Sometimes, you have to see the beast for what it is � a beast, a savage animal. Maybe you can walk with it .. but if it�s hungry, it will eat you. People HAVE been killed by wolves in North America, and recently. I posted the coroner�s published article in a medical journal. I personally don�t think there�s anything wrong with an adult owning a weak animal such as a pit, but it should never be around children because of the potential harm. People that do this are loathsome and unworthy of any type of respect because they take risks with their children. If they want to play with bears, let them. That way, when they are eaten, it�s all for the best .. the bear benefits and so does humanity.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/24/2004
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There are only a few proven cases in europe. This info I got from a different video about wolves in spain. One of the cases a child was carried about one hundered feet through a field. The boy was grown and still had the scars. Besides, I only said in America. People lie. They used to even call women witches and burn them. In the video there were only two proven cases in spain. The other hundred turned out to be lies. Bears and other hunters kill people too. So do dogs. I read recently the most attacks on people were from deers. I'm serious, look it up. Tell me what national geographic video you are talking about. I will rent it. If you're right I'll beleive you. Be sure to watch the one on artic wolves and how they were so trusting and nonagressive to the men. Oh, We have problems with mountain lions here in california. We have sighns and people know to look out. At least one or two people have died since I've lived here. I haven't seen anything about wolces killing people in the news? Have you? When?

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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Animal enemies: Myth vs. reality By Marsha Walton (CNN Sci-Tech) Thursday, September 26, 2002 Posted: 8:57 AM EDT (1257 GMT) Car accidents involving deer and other animals on roads cost dozens of human lives and millions of dollars in insurance claims each year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Story Tools -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SPECIAL REPORT A slithering menace \| Video Snakeheads revisited \| Video Animal enemies: Myth vs. reality \| Video Billion dollar bug \| Video Gator in the garden \| Video Gallery: Critters in Conflict VIDEO CNN's Ann Kellan reports on the deadliest U.S. creatures (September 24) PLAY VIDEO (CNN) -- Forget the lions, tigers, and bears. Toss out the sharks, the alligators, even the poisonous snakes. When it comes to humans' worst enemies in the animal world, don't think big. Or sharp teeth. Or even mean. Hollywood and fairy tales may demonize the shark and the big bad wolf. But the animal that claims far more lives in the United States is one that many people urge their kids to walk up and touch at the petting zoo. Yes, Bambi. It's not because they attack, but because hapless deer wander onto roadways that they and other creatures claimed 83 human lives in car crashes in 2000, according to the U. S. Department of Transportation . Tens of thousands of deer are killed when hit by cars. Erie Insurance, which keeps detailed records on car vs. deer claims, says the number of claims increased from 23,000 in 2000 to 26,000 in 2001, up 16 percent. That company alone spent $50 million on car/deer accidents in 2001, the vast majority of their claims in Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and West Virginia. In spite of lots of hyped movies and media coverage, the Florida Museum of Natural History reports that sharks killed five humans in 2001, down from 12 in 2000. In the United States, alligators and crocodiles have killed on average one person a year for the past 30 years, says the University of Florida. While the big bad wolf may be the villain of fairy tales, this animal doesn't even cause a blip on the radar screen when it comes to animal/human conflict. Brad DeVries of the Defenders of Wildlife says there are no records of wolves killing a person in the United States. But the wolf's "tamer" cousin does not always live up to the motto of man's best friend. From 1979 to 1996, dog bites killed 340 people in the United States, with most of the fatalities involving children 14 and younger, according to the Centers for Disease Control. While Rottweilers and pit bulls were responsible for more than half of those deaths, experts stress that it's not fair to condemn a breed for what's usually the sin of its owner. Dozens of breeds, from dachshunds to Yorkshire terriers have caused deaths. "Quite likely the kind of person who was an irresponsible owner of a Doberman in the '70s is the same kind of person who is an irresponsible owner of a Rottweiler in the '90s or a Presa Canario in 2002," said Dr. Randall Lockwood, an animal behavior expert. Most dog attacks, Lockwood says, are predictable and preventable, the result of an owner's failure to properly raise, train, socialize and supervise an animal. That's often the result of the wrong dog for the wrong reason. "Getting a dog as an offensive or defensive weapon is a lot like having a loaded handgun in the nightstand," said Lockwood. Usually a child, a family member, or a neighbor is the one who gets harmed. In his studies of more than 300 fatal dog attacks over the past 25 years, he says just one was a burglar. Although grizzlies and black bears are ferocious, the actual number of human deaths from bear attacks is a tame one. Black bears and grizzly bears killed 133 people in North America in the past century, six more in 2000 and 2001, according to Steve Herrero with the University of Calgary. But each year across the United States and Canada, there are millions of uneventful human/bear encounters. The current population is about 700,000 black bears, and 60,000 grizzlies on the continent, says Herrero, professor emeritus of environmental science. He's spent more than 10,000 hours studying grizzlies, and has written and produced books and videos on bears and keeping safe if you confront one. He says the usual reason for injury or death is a too-sudden encounter, when the bear perceives the human to be too close. Usually, he says, in those defensive situations the bear simply growls and runs. Surviving a confrontation can be accomplished, says Herrero. Sometimes you can just "talk it down" like you would an enraged, out of control human being. If that's not working, there are effective cayenne pepper bear sprays on the market now that give the human enough time to escape. Playing dead can work, he says, but if you have no other choice, and if the bear is being offensive, just attack the bear all you can, with a stick, a stone, a knife, or smack it on the nose. Usually the encounters last two to 10 seconds, but in that time they can inflict terrible injuries, says Herrero. The number of bear attacks in North America has gone up in the past 50 years, mostly, says Herrero, because more and more people are working, camping, and hiking in what was their turf for many years. Ten people were killed in the 1950s, 14 in the '60s, 22 in the '70s, 27 in the '80s, 29 in the '90s The critter that humans should fear the most usually is dismissed as a mere annoyance, a pest at a picnic or the pool. But the disease-carrying mosquito, delivering encephalitis, the West Nile virus, malaria, and Dengue fever, makes it far and away the deadliest beast in the animal world. The World Health Organization says mosquitos cause more than 2 million deaths a year worldwide. Another insect, the tsetse fly, kills another 66,000 annually.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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Are wolves a threat to humans? When European settlers arrived in North America, they found that they were entering a land that was inhabited by wolves. Thousands of wolves were slaughtered by the settlers in part because they genuinely feared for their lives. Wolves had already been wiped out from much of Europe, as most people believed that wolves did attack people. Indeed, during the Middle Ages many horrifying rumours of wolves killing humans began to spread across Europe. Although many of these rumours are not very well documented and many seem exaggerated, people believed them. However, one cannot dismiss all attacks as rumours. Some wolves in Europe probably did attack people, although most of these attacks seem to have been committed by rabid wolves or feral wolf/dog hybrids (Mech, 1970). For example, during the 1760's in south-central France, over 60 people were confirmed to be killed by wolves. Biologists today believe that those attacks were the work of feral wolf/dog hybrids, and not wolves (Savage, 1996). The animals involved were far bigger than normal European wolves, and were a strange reddish colour. The vast majority of other attacks seemed to have been committed by rabid wolves. Today, rabies is rather uncommon in the grey wolf. Today, wolf attacks are extremely rare In North America, no person has ever been killed by a healthy, wild wolf. Most wild wolves avoid people, and even people who live in wolf country rarely actually see wolves. Even those who encounter wolves are rarely attacked. In fact, many wolf researchers who have approached wolf dens have found that they were able to do so without being approached by adult wolves. However, wolf attacks are not unheard of in North America. Two attacks occurred in Algonquin park, which is is Ontario, Canada, during the 1990's. The first incident, which occurred in 1996, involved a wolf that bit an 11-year old boy and tried to pull him out of his sleeping bag. In 1998, a wolf grabbed an infant and tossed it before it was driven away. The same wolf had earlier tried to attack a four-year-old girl. In addition, in April, 2000, a six-year-old boy was bitten by a wolf at an Alaskan logging camp, and during the summer of 2000, a camper was bitten by a wolf on Vancouver Island. All four of these attacks are believed to have been committed by habituated wolves, that is, wolves who had lost their fear of humans. The wolves involved in the Algonquin attacks had been fed and approached by people, and the wolf involved in the Vancouver Island attack had also been fed by people. Some wildlife biologists believe that the behaviour of the wolf involved in the attack on the Alaska boy was consistent with an animal that had been habituated to human food. Wild wolves typically fear people, but wolves who have learned that they can get food by raiding campsites or bothering people may lose their fear of them, and as a result, may begin to behave in an aggressive manner. Wolves who have been repeatedly approached by humans may also begin to lose their fear of them. So, while wolves are generally not dangerous to people, it is important for those who see wolves in the wild to not forget that wolves are no different from any other wild carnivore, and should therefore not be approached or fed. This phenomenon is, or course, not limited to wolves. Any wild animal that has been fed or repeatedly approached by humans may lose fear of them and become dangerous. It is also important to keep these negative wolf-human encounters within a broader perspective. There are roughly 60 000 wolves in North America and the vast majority of them avoid human contact. Thousands of people visit parks and wilderness areas each year that are inhabited by wolves, and attacks remain extremely rare. In fact, wolves are normally so cautious of human contact that they are rarely seen by hikers, campers and other people who spend a great deal of time in the outdoors. Want More Information? Send a blank E-mail message to wolfinfo6@clearlight.com. You will automatically receive a return message with information on the subject of wolf-human encounters from the International Wolf Centre.

Answer by family pitbull breeder
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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your insecurity's shine thru my friend,and you really must get a grip on reality.I didn't want to get into details and it won't change your mind anyway but here we go.First,i never said it was easy.i had over 80 stitches and am scarred for life from my hip to ankle on my left side.not only was i fighting the dog but his owner also.Second, im a 260 pound man and when i push with all my might with the sole of my boot on the back of the neck of a 65 pound dog latched on to my other ankle, you can bet your ass the neck will snap.Third, pitbulls do let go periodically to reposition, defend, or give up.and yes some pitbulls give up.fourth, i would of been killed huh? tell that to the hundreds of survivors of pitbull attacks other then myself.fifth, if you need a gun or a knife to kill a pitbull,then how do they kill each other at times?Are you people mad because you depend on your dogs to make you feel safe?I got news for you,there are people like me everywhere who don't give a damn about how tuff your dog is and will gladly face you and your dog any time we feel like it. look, i love pitbulls, but they are not the dog you want if your trying to scare people.they don't scare me even after my attack. the pitbull is definitely an animal to be respected,but it is not invincible and if you think one would kill you...well, that says allot about you,not the dog.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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Myths surround wolves By NICK GEVOCK Chronicle Staff Writer Despite their tendency to make headlines, Ed Bangs says wolves are actually pretty boring animals. Yet the intensity of people's reaction to the toothy critters is fascinating. "It's pretty much the same worldwide, people are people and wolves are wolves; when you mix the two, the reaction is very predictable," Bangs, the man in charge of wolf recovery in the Northern Rockies for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, said recently. "You hear the same stories about the same kinds of things." Things like, wolves kill for fun. Or wolves are just looking for a chance to attack people. Or, when they're around children, wolves are a serious threat. Although years of studying wolves has shown that none of those things are true, Bangs said, the facts are often overshadowed by wolf folklore and mythology. Wolf tales span the globe and span the centuries, depicting the wolf as everything from a beneficient beast eager to assist man to evil incarnate, waiting to gobble him up. Despite being one of the most studied animals on Earth, those stories do more to shape human perception of wolves more than any biologist's work. "In the wolf we have not so much an animal that we have always known as one that we have consistently imagined," writer Barry Lopez penned in his classic book on wolf-human interactions, "Of Wolves and Men." WOLVES AT THE DOOR When two packs of wolves began attacking livestock in the Madison Valley last month, Bangs was bombarded with complaints from Montana's congressional delegation, the governor, ranchers and local officials. Wolf attacks on livestock are never taken lightly and both packs were wiped out by federal trappers, Bangs pointed out. But the reaction to the attacks stunned him. "Wolf stuff brings out this tremendous emotion," he said. "The mythology of wolves feeds all that stuff." It is true that wolves at times prey on livestock. But ranchers' losses to wolves are minuscule compared to those caused by weather, disease and other predators, he said. It is also true that, in extremely rare cases, wolves have bitten people, although most of those incidents involved rabid wolves or ones that had been fed and become accustomed to being around people. In North America, however, there are no documented cases of a healthy, wild wolf attacking people. Clearly, the intensity of emotion surrounding wolves is far more pitched than the threat. Wolves strike alarm in humans to a degree that bears and mountain lions do not. "Cougars kill people, and people don't cry out to wipe out the whole species," said Kimberly Byrd, who earned a doctorate in conservation biology at the University of Minnesota studying people's perceptions of wolves. Byrd and others who study wolf mythology say the immense body of wolf folklore, more than anything else, seems to drive people's perceptions of the animal. "The depth with which this animal enters into the symbolism in our culture is tremendous," Byrd said. THE BIG, BAD WOLF Throughout the ages, fables have bestowed wolves with one of four basic characteristics -- foolish, wise, helpful or evil, said Kevin Strauss, a storyteller from Ely, Minn. The portrayal of wolves in various cultures has "a lot to do with how people made their living when they made up the stories," Strauss said. "These aren't so much stories about wolves, they're stories about people." Stories featuring wolves as villains are plentiful, including a verse in the Bible in which Jesus described himself as a shepherd, safeguarding his flock of sheep from wolves. The "Three Little Pigs," "Little Red Riding Hood" and "Peter and the Wolf" are just a few of the fairytales that cast wolves as evil creatures scheming to gobble up the main characters. In Germany and Eastern Europe, farmers for centuries despised wolves for occassionally attacking livestock, and that comes through in the stories. "The society from Central Europe was very similar to colonial America -- a farming society," Strauss said. "The stories they passed on, not just about wolves, reflect those values: hard work, perseverance, domestication as opposed to wilderness." And yet, in other cultures the wolf has always been admired, even revered. Numerous American Indian tribes respect wolves for their hunting ability and courage. Even some stories from Eastern Europe and Russia depict wolves as heroes, where the wolf helps people, despite the fact that much of the region's folklore casts wolves in a negative light. In Finland, herders saw wolves in a positive light, or at least a neutral one, Strauss said. One Finnish story has a good wizard creating the wolf to control the reindeer herds. The wizard formed the animal's backbone from the main roof beam of a human's house, its claws and teeth from the iron nails and its eyes from the glowing embers of the home's fire. In the end, the wolf also managed to keep the evil Lord of the Dead out of the forest, serving to protect people, too. As testament to the power of such stories, Strauss said some Finns, who were watching captive wolves, asked whether wolves could turn their heads. After all, if their necks were made from roof beams, they'd be too stiff to bend, wouldn't they? NOT JUST ANCIENT LITERATURE But it isn't necessary to go back centuries to find literature that feeds negative perceptions of wolves. The United States government added to the mythology in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, said Mark Madison, a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service historian in Shepherdstown, W.Va. Throughout that period, the government waged a successful campaign to eradicate the wolf in order to protect livestock and dwindling big game herds. Although the loss of wildlife was largely due to uncontrolled hunting and loss of habitat, the wolf made an easy scapegoat, he said. "The scientific community really propagated this 'big bad wolf' thing," Madison said. "If you look back at our literature in the 1930s, the wolves are portrayed as kind of snarly looking, they're always described as kind of murderous and bloodthirsty." While wolves did prey more heavily on livestock at the time, that was largely due to the decimation of game having taken away their usual prey. And federal official also touted wolf killing as a way to make the woods safe for hunters and anglers. "The more effective propanganda were leaflets sent out to Boy Scouts, farmers and ranchers, saying, 'This is what we're doing to eradicate the wolf,'" he said. "These big predators didn't have much of a consitiuency." FOLKLORE LIVES ON But times change. Now the federal government and conservation groups are trying to shift perceptions, urging people to see the importance of wolves in wild ecosystems. The gift shops in Yellowstone National Park now stock stuffed toy wolves. The Grizzly Discovery Center in West Yellowstone has a few wolves in captivity to help educate tourists. A 1993 book, "The Three Little Wolves and the Big, Bad Pig," even attempts to turn a classic "bad wolf" story on its head. However, it's unlikely folklore so ingrained in American culture will go away soon. And Strauss said that's not a bad thing. Stories are one of the best ways people learn because they appeal to basic emotions. He likes to tell many of the lesser-known tales about wolves from other cultures, but he's careful to choose stories that reflect wolves as both beneficient beasts and evil incarnate. That balance is important, he said, because wolves are wild animals and can be unpredictable. Yet for all efforts at balance, the big bad wolf is not likely to disappear entirely. "I'm not sure scientists will be able to counter the stories and appeal to the emotional side of our brains," Strauss said. "Just giving people statistics and scientific facts will not alleviate those concerns." Nick Gevock is at ngevock@dailychronicle.com

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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Myths surround wolves By NICK GEVOCK Chronicle Staff Writer Despite their tendency to make headlines, Ed Bangs says wolves are actually pretty boring animals. Yet the intensity of people's reaction to the toothy critters is fascinating. "It's pretty much the same worldwide, people are people and wolves are wolves; when you mix the two, the reaction is very predictable," Bangs, the man in charge of wolf recovery in the Northern Rockies for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, said recently. "You hear the same stories about the same kinds of things." Things like, wolves kill for fun. Or wolves are just looking for a chance to attack people. Or, when they're around children, wolves are a serious threat. Although years of studying wolves has shown that none of those things are true, Bangs said, the facts are often overshadowed by wolf folklore and mythology. Wolf tales span the globe and span the centuries, depicting the wolf as everything from a beneficient beast eager to assist man to evil incarnate, waiting to gobble him up. Despite being one of the most studied animals on Earth, those stories do more to shape human perception of wolves more than any biologist's work. "In the wolf we have not so much an animal that we have always known as one that we have consistently imagined," writer Barry Lopez penned in his classic book on wolf-human interactions, "Of Wolves and Men." WOLVES AT THE DOOR When two packs of wolves began attacking livestock in the Madison Valley last month, Bangs was bombarded with complaints from Montana's congressional delegation, the governor, ranchers and local officials. Wolf attacks on livestock are never taken lightly and both packs were wiped out by federal trappers, Bangs pointed out. But the reaction to the attacks stunned him. "Wolf stuff brings out this tremendous emotion," he said. "The mythology of wolves feeds all that stuff." It is true that wolves at times prey on livestock. But ranchers' losses to wolves are minuscule compared to those caused by weather, disease and other predators, he said. It is also true that, in extremely rare cases, wolves have bitten people, although most of those incidents involved rabid wolves or ones that had been fed and become accustomed to being around people. In North America, however, there are no documented cases of a healthy, wild wolf attacking people. Clearly, the intensity of emotion surrounding wolves is far more pitched than the threat. Wolves strike alarm in humans to a degree that bears and mountain lions do not. "Cougars kill people, and people don't cry out to wipe out the whole species," said Kimberly Byrd, who earned a doctorate in conservation biology at the University of Minnesota studying people's perceptions of wolves. Byrd and others who study wolf mythology say the immense body of wolf folklore, more than anything else, seems to drive people's perceptions of the animal. "The depth with which this animal enters into the symbolism in our culture is tremendous," Byrd said. THE BIG, BAD WOLF Throughout the ages, fables have bestowed wolves with one of four basic characteristics -- foolish, wise, helpful or evil, said Kevin Strauss, a storyteller from Ely, Minn. The portrayal of wolves in various cultures has "a lot to do with how people made their living when they made up the stories," Strauss said. "These aren't so much stories about wolves, they're stories about people." Stories featuring wolves as villains are plentiful, including a verse in the Bible in which Jesus described himself as a shepherd, safeguarding his flock of sheep from wolves. The "Three Little Pigs," "Little Red Riding Hood" and "Peter and the Wolf" are just a few of the fairytales that cast wolves as evil creatures scheming to gobble up the main characters. In Germany and Eastern Europe, farmers for centuries despised wolves for occassionally attacking livestock, and that comes through in the stories. "The society from Central Europe was very similar to colonial America -- a farming society," Strauss said. "The stories they passed on, not just about wolves, reflect those values: hard work, perseverance, domestication as opposed to wilderness." And yet, in other cultures the wolf has always been admired, even revered. Numerous American Indian tribes respect wolves for their hunting ability and courage. Even some stories from Eastern Europe and Russia depict wolves as heroes, where the wolf helps people, despite the fact that much of the region's folklore casts wolves in a negative light. In Finland, herders saw wolves in a positive light, or at least a neutral one, Strauss said. One Finnish story has a good wizard creating the wolf to control the reindeer herds. The wizard formed the animal's backbone from the main roof beam of a human's house, its claws and teeth from the iron nails and its eyes from the glowing embers of the home's fire. In the end, the wolf also managed to keep the evil Lord of the Dead out of the forest, serving to protect people, too. As testament to the power of such stories, Strauss said some Finns, who were watching captive wolves, asked whether wolves could turn their heads. After all, if their necks were made from roof beams, they'd be too stiff to bend, wouldn't they? NOT JUST ANCIENT LITERATURE But it isn't necessary to go back centuries to find literature that feeds negative perceptions of wolves. The United States government added to the mythology in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, said Mark Madison, a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service historian in Shepherdstown, W.Va. Throughout that period, the government waged a successful campaign to eradicate the wolf in order to protect livestock and dwindling big game herds. Although the loss of wildlife was largely due to uncontrolled hunting and loss of habitat, the wolf made an easy scapegoat, he said. "The scientific community really propagated this 'big bad wolf' thing," Madison said. "If you look back at our literature in the 1930s, the wolves are portrayed as kind of snarly looking, they're always described as kind of murderous and bloodthirsty." While wolves did prey more heavily on livestock at the time, that was largely due to the decimation of game having taken away their usual prey. And federal official also touted wolf killing as a way to make the woods safe for hunters and anglers. "The more effective propanganda were leaflets sent out to Boy Scouts, farmers and ranchers, saying, 'This is what we're doing to eradicate the wolf,'" he said. "These big predators didn't have much of a consitiuency." FOLKLORE LIVES ON But times change. Now the federal government and conservation groups are trying to shift perceptions, urging people to see the importance of wolves in wild ecosystems. The gift shops in Yellowstone National Park now stock stuffed toy wolves. The Grizzly Discovery Center in West Yellowstone has a few wolves in captivity to help educate tourists. A 1993 book, "The Three Little Wolves and the Big, Bad Pig," even attempts to turn a classic "bad wolf" story on its head. However, it's unlikely folklore so ingrained in American culture will go away soon. And Strauss said that's not a bad thing. Stories are one of the best ways people learn because they appeal to basic emotions. He likes to tell many of the lesser-known tales about wolves from other cultures, but he's careful to choose stories that reflect wolves as both beneficient beasts and evil incarnate. That balance is important, he said, because wolves are wild animals and can be unpredictable. Yet for all efforts at balance, the big bad wolf is not likely to disappear entirely. "I'm not sure scientists will be able to counter the stories and appeal to the emotional side of our brains," Strauss said. "Just giving people statistics and scientific facts will not alleviate those concerns." Nick Gevock is at ngevock@dailychronicle.com

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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Snoopy � what are you talking about? �.�copy and paste?" You SHOULD copy and paste, that's how you get good information to us. You cite your sources. Only an idiot tries to tell someone about an issue that they know noting about and makes it all up. Someone here does that and they don't have any sources at all to support them, and they disagree with those that do support the issues with expert advice and factual information from newspapers. You have done a good job of that and you have been very convincing. Certainly, you have been the best person on this page. Let me repeat. You have certainly been the best person on this page. Everything was really good too, but only here briefly ... they seemed to know a lot and had an understanding of genetics. Most of these people have really never even been around dogs. It's strange to be afraid of a pit or to think that a pit is so deadly. It's like someone working at the race track thinking that a VW Beetle is a race car. It just doesn't click. We are in a almost unique situation here in the US. WE are taking an animal that lives by tooth and claw and acting as though it was simply a pet. There are idiots that try to treat this lethal animal as the living room mutt ... in the end, this results in death and pain for someone. If Mech really did enter a den of pups, I would be very surprised at these actions. Mech is probably one of the world's biggest wolf experts. I have never heard about him being in a den with pups...I doubt it a little. If this were true, he would disappoint me. The lifework of a Minnesota wildlife biologist circles the world. By Greg Breining "Mech (pronounced Meech) is one of the pre-eminent wolf researchers in the world. Or that a man who loves to trap has also loved opera ever since watching the movie The Great Caruso. Or that he doesn't own a dog. "People expect I'm going to love dogs because I'm this big canid guy. I don't even like them, to tell you the truth." Or that a man known for the recovery of wolves would advocate killing them." "....Mech continues to argue that wolves in settled areas must be controlled, most economically through public hunting and trapping, to minimize human-wolf conflicts." http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/janfeb04/mech.html MECH REALIZES THE IMPORTANCE OF KILLING WOLVES AND HAS ALSO BEEN A TRAPPER. He isn't a Hollywood dude like "Croc Hunter" that is popular because of his "film" exploits. To act as though wolf attacks are a mystery is interesting, and yet there are areas of the old Russian republic today where wolves regularly kill people. The scientists of the time accurately recorded what they witnesses and this is apparent. Wolves were almost EXTINCT in Europe and have only recently returned. In many places, wolves had been absent for hundreds of years. So, wolf attacks were rare. NOT in parts of the Russian federation, however. The REASON these attacks are rare is because there were NO WOLVES. In areas WITH wolves, there have been attacks as the wolves move closer to man. WITHOUT EXCETION, people playing with wild animals get people killed. In Yellowstone, people "feeding" bears led to bears coming into the camps and injuring campers. A natural fear of man is the result of man not associating with the animal and also being aggressive. Just like the Llama and the wolf. The Llama could guard sheet and was even used in the US until wolves realized they could be eaten. Man is a weak animal compared to wolves and bears and other predators...we can easily be killed. It's best these animals stay clear of humans. It�s best we don�t treat them like a dog because they AREN�T a dog. Oh, by the way � shark attacks are a lot like croc attacks. Sharks are afraid of people because we kill them. In Shri Lanka, they don�t hard crocs and hundred of people are eaten as a result. Crocs don�t have a big fear of humans and there is a problem. Sharks will someday be a bigger problem, and we don�t know the size now. World wide, thousands disappear in the ocean. WE don�t know what happens to them.

Answer by Gene
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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Green people disable many of the sites from those that have published information about killer wolves. However, see: "POPULATION-RUSSIA: Free Market Reform Sets The Wolves Loose" By Andrei Ivanov MOSCOW, Mar 26 (IPS) - 'Wolves have taken over the countryside because the authorities have outlawed hunting practices and the killing of wolves by herders. Wolves in some areas are the major cause of death ...In fact some estimates claim that human death rates may be over 10,000 a year in southern Asia. " http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/mar98/16_30_058.html Many of the ten thousand are claimed to be from RABID wolves and this is what many wild life experts use to exclude deaths ... they say, "There no accounts of a healthy wolf killing a human in North America." This is a partial lie, because in many cases they are assuming that the death was caused by a sick wolf in the "furious stage. Animals become restless and irritable and are hyperresponsive to auditory and visual stimuli during the "furious" stage of rabies. However, in many cases, they don't know why the wolf attacked. If you saw "Cujo" .. this is an example of "Hollywood" Once the animal starts salivinating, his face has become paralyzed and probably doesn't have much of a bite. This doesn't occur during the "furious" phase.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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Dan says, "bull -wolf cross would attack the whole bunch." See, this anger is misspent. Dan should be angry with himself for being in a fantasy world. WE have demonstrated quite conclusively that the pit would not last a minute with a wolf ... not in the pit or in the wild. The pit gives no protection, except if the dog turns, they stop the match unless they want to go on fighting. However, this would not save the pit...there would not be enough time. As I have said, Snoopy, you have had the best support for your postings and the most consistent. I am not sure why you thought I confused you with Mromero. He is really bad. I do disagree with your beliefs about dangerous animals. Sometimes, you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you....but you must always remember it's a wild and deadly animal that will kill you in a second. I know someone that thinks of a very dangerous animal as a pet, and yet ... someday that pet might eat her. If you worked around alligators you would realize...sometimes they seem to be similar to dogs. They don't bite at you and they remain motionless. You can sometimes see them in the water, underwater near the bank ... watching you. But then, sometimes they are hungry and they come for you. We can civilize even the most dangerous of animals in time .. but there is a genetic reason. Many wolves can't be tamed at all. You might find a friendly wolf and hang around, then keep some of the kids. At the same time, all around, other people are doing it to ... but these animals for the most part are mutations that don't have the hormones that rage and are not as strong and certainly not as fierce. When they lose the fierce, they can't survive in the woods. They are taken by tooth and claw. Many hikers would die this way except for the fear that animals have of man. YES, I think cubs are cute too, and I have been inclinded to find them interesting .. but in the end, I know that the nature of the beast is savage and if they aren't, we kill them. We might as well put a bullet in their brain, because it's better than to be torn apart by another animal. The weak can't mate and they can't eat. The pack won't let them and so they are expelled. They they sometimes starve. Just a thought Snoopy. I would keep your dog away from the baby.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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Wolves Killing People 7. Conclusions Rarity The Linnell and McNay reports show that wolf attacks on people are vary rare. The records they examined indicate that wolves have wounded and killed several hundreds of people, but given these attacks were over a period of centuries and throughout the northern hemisphere, wolf attacks are sparse and meagre. Only 17 cases of people killed by wolves were found in the last 50 or so years in the whole of North America, Europe and Russia - 50 people in a human population of roughly a billion people. A revealing point which shows just how rare wolf attacks are is that they can be listed in a single document (like the Linnell Report and the McNay Report) and when attacks occur in the West the worse cases are sufficiently newsworthy for broadcast in the news media. Wolf Tolerance Wolves can live close to people without causing problems. Their tolerance is surprising, even when people harm their cubs or take their kills. This is not to say that a healthy (that is non-rabid) wolf will never kill anyone. Sooner or later this may happen. But wolves are large wild predators and humans are ubiquitous worldwide. We should therefore expect the occasional unfavourable wolf-human encounter and not be overly shocked when it happens. Predisposing Factors Factors predisposing wolves to attack people, and apparently accounting for the majority of wolf attacks on people, are rabies, environment degradation, habituation, and provocation. Whereas rabies is less widespread than formerly and environments for wolves are improving, except in Third World countries, habituation and provocation remain a problem. Habituated wolves do not inevitably attack people. But now and then circumstances conspire to combine the conditions which can prompt a tragic incident. The solution is to keep wolves wild and afraid of people, so that they keep their distance, and for people to keep their distance from wolves. At least some wolf attacks on people are a consequence of our own actions. We must be careful, therefore, to examine our own behaviour and not just the wolf's. Perception Of The Wolf Many animals around us which we take for granted, like horses and dogs, have killed more people than wolves. So there seems little point being afraid of wolves. Yet many people are afraid of wolves. The wolf was the most common and ubiquitous large predator in Europe. Wolf attacks were sometimes fatal and now and then dramatic. They left a deep impression on the imagination of people in a pre-literate Europe where wolves and nature were dark and misunderstood. This old perception of the wolf may take some time to expire. � Wolf Trust 2004. All rights reserved.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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February 15, 2002 Risk of attacks by wolves in Europe is low report concludes Unprovoked attacks on people by non-rabid wolves have occurred but are very rare, concludes a new report into the incidence of wolf attacks on people in Eurasia and North America. The report, The fear of wolves: A review of wolf attacks on humans financed by the Norwegian Ministry of the Environment, aims to establish a foundation for reducing people's fear of wolves, and make management recommendations to reduce the risks of attacks. By examining ecological, medical, veterinary and historical literature, and drawing on an extensive contact network of wolf experts, the authors found there was no doubt that wolves have on occasion attacked and killed people. But the report states: "When the frequency of wolf attacks on people is compared to that from other large carnivores or wildlife in general it is obvious that wolves are among the least dangerous species for their size." The report compiled by 18 co-authors grouped wolf attacks into three categories � attacks by rabid wolves, predatory attacks where wolves appear to have regarded humans as prey, and defensive attacks where a wolf has bitten a person in response to being cornered or provoked. The majority of attacks concerned rabid wolves with records from Italy, France, Finland, Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Spain, the Baltic States, Russia, Iran, Kazakstan, Afghanistan, China, India and North America. The earliest record of such an attack dates back to 1557 in Germany, and the most recent was from Latvia in 2001. As the incidence of rabies has been greatly reduced in both domestic dogs and wildlife throughout Western Europe and North America, the data showed the incidence of attacks by rabid wolves has also dropped. The research uncovered many examples of wolves being provoked without attacking humans. However, the authors did find a number of cases where provoked wolves have bitten people in an attempt to get away. In no such situations have wolves directly killed anybody. Unprovoked attacks by non-rabid wolves on people were found to be rare with few records of wolves regarding people as prey. However, the report found a number of incidents where predatory attacks have occurred. In Europe, the largest numbers of records come from pre 20th century France, Russia, Estonia and northern Italy. The best known being from the G�vaudan area in France where historical records indicate that over 100 people were killed in the period 1764- 1767 by wolves believed to be hybridised with large shepherd dogs. Predatory attacks from the 20th century are much rarer. There are reports of five children being killed in Poland (1937) and four children being killed in Spain between 1957-1974. There are also controversial reports of 36 children being killed in the Kirov region of Russia between 1944-1953. There are no documented cases of people being killed in predatory attacks by wolves in North America during the 20th century. However, there have been eight well-documented attacks, mainly in protected areas, where non-rabid wolves have injured people during the last 20 years. The report identifies four factors associated with wolf attacks on humans, of which rabies is the most significant. Habituation � where wolves have lost their fear of humans � is believed to increase the risk of attack. Provocation, such as trying to kill a trapped or cornered animal or remove pups from dens, is also cited as an important factor. Highly modified environments, where natural prey may have been reduced leaving wolves to scavenge garbage or prey on livestock, are likewise considered significant. In spite of increasing numbers of wolves � an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 in Europe � the report concludes the risks of wolf attacks in Western Europe/Scandinavia today appear to be very low. "Even with these numbers we have managed to only find records of four people being killed in Europe, four in Russia and none in North America by non-rabid wolves during the last 50 years," it states. The report makes a number of management recommendations to help reduce the risks of wolf attacks even further. These include keeping wolves wild, ensuring a sufficient wild prey base, and reaction planning to respond appropriately to wolves that act in an aggressive manner or lose their shyness. The need for rabies control outside of Western Europe is also highlighted. Finally, the report stresses the need to address the human dimension of wolf management. This is because "fear of wolves" is as much a symbolic issue, as a fear of actual risk. I'm not getting any info from green peace. They are weird.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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I am appalled that the state is slaughtering wolves as well as permitting bear baiting. I cannot understand the supposed logic of destroying wolves and bears in order to have more moose (that is the story told to the citizens; of course, few people believed them). Supposedly, the people in McGrath didn't have enough meat to eat, hence the slaughtering began. Now Fish and Game will be killing moose calves because there is an "overabundance" of moose! In the short time he has been governor, Frank Murkowski has caused great hardship to the ecosystem by promoting the killing wolves and bears, and now the slaughtering of baby moose. What kind of management would you call this? It is ruining the state and its ecosystem. It seems he thinks nothing of the future environment. Think what havoc he will wreak before we have the chance to vote in a new governor. -- Mary Ann Woodward / Anchorage

Answer by Dan
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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it is not anger misspent.it is tired of your stupid thinking you know something you do not.it is a WISH.ANGER AND WISHING DO NOT GO HAND IN HAND.I DO NOT THINK YOU KNOW IF A WOLF AND PIT BULL MATCH,WOULD GO TO THE WOLF.YOU THINK YOU ARE SMART SO YOU THINK YOU KNOW.WELL I THINK YOU ARE WRONG MY DOG BOOKS SAY YOU ARE WRONG.I AM NOT ANGRY,JUST TRIED OF PEOPLE SAYING THIS AND THIS =THAT.WHEN REALLY THERES ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT.AND IT HAS BEEN DONE WOLF VS. PIT BULL HAS HAPPENED.EVERYTHING I HAVE READ, HEARD SAYS THE FIGHTING PIT WINS.SO I AM NOTHING BUT TIRED OF ALL THIS ''KNOWING'' WITHOUT DOING.AS TO pit BULL breeder i think he is a liar.he did not kill a pit bull with his foot.if there was a man fighting him too that really puts it over the top.anybody can be as BIG AND BAD AS THEY LIKE ON HERE.MOST OF THIS IS A PEOPLE TELLING LIES AND BRAGGING.IF HE HAD TRIED TO BREAK THE DOGS NECK THE DOG WOULD HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM THE PRESSURE.PLUS HE SAID OH THEY ARE NOT MUCH OF A THREAT,YET SAYS LATER HE RECEIVED 80 STITCHES.SOUNDS LIKE A THREAT TO ME.BESIDES A PITS BITES ARE NOT TEARING IN NATURE,BUT CRUSHING.SO YES I THINK HES JUST A WANTABE ''HERO''.I HAVE SEEN WHAT 60+LB. PIT DO TO AN ANIMAL WHEN THEY ATTACK AND ITS NOT SOMETHING I WOULD WANT TO RECEIVE.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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Snoopy says, "The Linnell and McNay reports show that wolf attacks on people are vary rare. The records they examined indicate that wolves have wounded and killed several hundreds of people, but given these attacks were over a period of centuries and throughout the northern hemisphere, wolf attacks are sparse and meagre. Only 17 cases of people killed by wolves were found in the last 50 or so years in the whole of North America, Europe and Russia - 50 people in a human population of roughly a billion people." That's not true at all. I have seen this but those figures are disputed by everyone. France has not had wolves since the 1700's until recently. Same with most of the other countries. But Asia has terrible problems. "In Northern India since 1996 there has been more than 80 people killed and eaten by wolves, in1998 30 (thirty) of those killed were children between ages of one (1) and twelve (12.) See National Geographic, Man Eaters of India)" These are just CONFIRMED kills. Some experts believe that only 1 in 6 wolfkills in the US get compensated. Sometimes, the animal is never found at all. There must be documentation, they must find tracks and a whole list of issues. I think we should profit from the wolves, not pay hundreds of thousands of dollars. Wild animals are wild. Thank God most of these meat heads stay out of the woods. LIke the "bear" couple that were recently torn apart and eaten by bear. Their actions will most likely get other killed and they chose their path. They were warned and now they are dead. It's sad, yes, sad they were so stupid and died so horribly and I wonder what their parents thought.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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What book? Go to natureswolves.com and see what a wolf does to a dog. I don't think you are understanding. A wolf is faster than a pitbull. They are really fast. The wolf would grab on to the pits throat before it could do anything. Then rip it's throat out. If there were two wolves there he would just have his ribs and throat ripped out. Both fatal injuries. Your book is wrong. Wht don't you tell me exactly what it says? You guys can also rent Marty Stouffers Wild America dangerous encounters. In the begining it shows a bear trying to steal a wolf kill. The wolves were taking turns eating as the others distracted the bear. The bear didn't touch them by the way. Then the wolves were fighting over a carcass with a wolverine. The wolverine lunged at the wolf teeth and claws, the wolf just jumped over him. Don't forget I'm talking about if a pitbull was too close to a wolf den and had to fight a wolf protecting its pups.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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I used to live in the woods. Still go there once a month. I was taught in school what to do if a cougar or bear attacked. I'm telling you right now, if I'm in yellowstone park it won't be the wolves that worry me. It will be the bears. Just because I love animals doesn't mean I'm stupid. If I saw any wild animal I would do my very best to avoid it. My friends and I stumbled across a cougar kill and we did not stick around. Hiking in the woods is one of my favorite past times. I was taught to make lots of noise so I wouldn't suprise any wild animal while hiking. I caught snakes and lizards as a child. The best snake I ever caught was a rubber boa. I knew almost every deadly snake there was by the time I was seven. The only wild animal that ever chased me was a buck. They were behind a big bush and I didn't see them. He just gave me a warning. I was almost trampled by a bull twice. It turned out I could get back over the barbwire fence quicker than I had crossed it. I was a tomboy aged eleven and my friends and I thought it would be a good idea to play chicken with the bulls, this time there was more than one. The really big bull charged us and we never ran so fast. I barely got over and my friends pants got caught so I had to pull her through. When we turned around the bull was sticking it's head over the fence staring at us. I had another friend whos parents owned a ranch. She was talking to me about killing cougars. I told her it was mean to kill them. She said "well, they are killing our horses and our cows." I said fine just kill the one then. She offered to let me go with her but I didn't want to see it. O.k. you don't know me so don't presume I'm a meat head stupid tourist and would approach a wild animal. Firedragon, I didn't write anything I posted information from websites so take it up with them. I'm sure that they have email. Just like Doug Smith.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/26/2004
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Well I know the meaning of "Plagerism" that's why I used the word. Just go back through the post of Firelier and look to see if has stated who wrote "it". When it is obvious he will otherwise not. We all know however. You are holding true to what I said about you, all insults no proof. Opinion and second hand info is not proof or evidence, we all know this you don't seem to. Snoopy what kind of bear was it on TV. And how did it turn out. I stated many times "Brown and Polar" bears. I bet the bear won! A WOLF/WOLVES HAVE NEVER KILLED A PERSON IN AT LEAST 100 YEARS. THERE ARE NO BODIES, NO WITNESSES, NO REAL REPORT OF ANY AUTHORITY (POLICE, FBI, CBI, D.O.W.) THAT IS BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN NO ATTACKS. THE ARTICLE IN THE NATIONAL GEO. "" A PERSON THAT HEARD THAT IT HAD HAPPENED. WE (AND ALL OTHER EDUCATED PERSONS AND COUNTRIES) CALL THAT A "SECOND HAND MYTH" A "WIFES TALE" A "GHOST STORY". WE SURE AS HELL DON'T CALL IT PROOF. BECAUSE THERE ARE NO BODIES OR SKELITAL REMAINS. NOT ONE. SO THAT IS WHAT YOUR "PROOF" BOILS DOWN TO FIRELIER. "I'VE POSTED MANY OTHER PEOPLES OPINION"S. "I SAID IT BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE DID/IS" I KNOW THAT IS WHAT YOU DO, THATS HOW I KNOW THAT YOU FULL OF CRAP.....

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/26/2004
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Snoopy don't forget; there are OTHER physical reasons the wolf would kill any dog. The wolf can bite much harder than any dog. Every see dogs fighting? Small ones grab anything they can, but mostly the dogs end up with some kind of grip mouth to mouth. A wolf would just crush the bones and rip their muzzles off within seconds. I have a picture of this with a Presa and all kinds of other dogs. By the way, since hunting dogs are not predation compensated, most aren't reported. The wolf has hormones that make him rage, and for all the talk of a "pit bred dog" .. that is so moronic. Would you like to be operated on by a "natural born surgeon?" Pits are just dogs and dogs are weak by animal standards. They can't bite, they don't have the big teeth and so they just do soft tissue damage...which can kill in the massive amounts of bites. The wolf really does have to fight for its life every day. He is lean and mean and all muscle. He has always been this way and never had a hand out. Pits get hand outs every day and were bred by low lifes. Few of the pits today were actually "pit bred" because they try to make them bigger and it's not the same dog. Few have had to fight and the ones that do..... RARELY fight to the death. Wolves all do and most of them die this way.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 6/26/2004
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Whatever J.C., first off yall, just ignore Mromero, because this guy actually stated that his Dogo killed a jaguar by itself. enough said on that one. I recently bought ANOTHER Wolf book called 'The Wolf Almanac' by Robert H. Busch, look it up. Interestingly to prove my point even more about this discussion and about wolves killing prey by themselves, the book states that " Another myth is that packs are Required to bring down large prey; several obbservers have seen single wolves catch and kill elk and moose. The first wolf to returen to Sweden after the extermination of its wolf population regularly brought down large moose by itself." To give a little more info on this, European wolves are a good amount smaller than The Gray Wolf in North America. Wolves are like Lions in a sense, they do not require to live in packs, but they are very social animals and like to be around each other, but it also makes hunting much easier. ALSO, according to this book, in 1907 when dogs were used to hunt wolves, the game warden of the Alberta Dep. of Agriculture stated that " Hunting with dogs has proven more successful with coyotes than with the timber wolf. The large greyhound or wolfhound which runs by sight and hunts in pairs will readily overtake and kill the coyote, but they would be no match for a full grown timber wolf." There is even MORE EVIDENCE.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/26/2004
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Yes, Neal. Everyone that hunts knows to keep his dogs away from wolves. If you have three dogs, that's between about $7,000 and $14,000 in investment, plus the weeks necessary to train ... and training can only take place during certain part of the year. It's regulated by the state. Additionally, a dog is a partner and you don't want it hurt. Even if I had a dog that could kill a wolf, I would not want it to fight the wolf. Vet bills are extremely high and what whacko wants to risk his dog? There's a lot more than money here!!! Andy, you are a complete liar. It's disgusting. If you check with the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to animals, they keep records of police arrests for dog fighting and guess what ... there has NEVER NEVER been a documented fight between a dog and a wolf or they would have caught one. According to you, it's common, but it just doesn't happen. J.C. we have posted the information that shows that physically, it's impossible for a dog to bite as hard as a wolf....there are physical limitations. The dog has WEAK jaws. You can tell if an animal has been attacked by a dog... HAHA! And three pit bred fighting pits got their ass whipped by a house shep/collie mix!! Haha! Haha! LOSER Mromero, I posted a published article about people that were killed by wolves in the US. The actual statement (which isn't true anyway) is: No healthy adult wolves have killed anyone in North America this century...this century is only about four years. RABID wolves could have killed 10,000 people in Russia...except they weren't really rabid!!!! That's just how they explain it! Snoopy, I was not referring to you when I was talking about people making wild animals jealous. Tonight I talked to some people that claimed it was important to get funding for wolves....and that an occasional visit with a wolf would not make others do this. I know that they need more wolves in Colorado to help with wasting disease and starvation in some areas. Hey, do you ever have a good laugh at these people that talk about ... their little dog whipping a wolf? It would be like saying their little dog whipped a Kodiak bear of something. It's so funny. Bear scare me some, up close. A bear can kill you easily and 20 others even after sufferring fatal wounds. But at least you know where the fight is...wolves, when they do attack, are all over their prey and they go for the good spots. They aren't like dogs that bite anything they can get. Spiked colars protect the dog's throat, but the problem is with their muzzle. Most dogs know that if they lock mouths, the other dog can't do damage ... but a wolf will kill them immediately that way. The fight is over in seconds. Good point Neal. Oh, as for compensation .. a women was talking about that tonight at the meeting. The compensation does not work well because of the elaborate procedures to get their proof that it was wolf depredation. That's why ALL the ranchers in the association oppose wolves. If the compensation worked and was fair, they wouldn't care.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/26/2004
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Moron- You can say you have seen pits win in fights against tame wolves all you want. I don't care. I don't paste opinions I paste scientific facts. Wolves have bigger heads, stronger jaws. In that book It basicly says that wolves run faster than our fastest bread dog, the hear better, smell better than a blood hound. They are better at everything except being a pet. Sorry firedragon but I'm getting really burnt out on the pit bull idiots because they keep saying the same thing over and over and over again. a wolf can kill at least two dogs at once.Now remember idiots, I'm talking about wild wolves. The alpha male is very protective of his cubs. If he caught a game pitbull around the den that dog would be so fking dead. The alpha male would have no problem. It's like a joke that I am even arguing this with you idiots. If you went to see the pictures on natureswolves.com you would seee that A wolf almost ripped the the poor dogs head off. It's head even looked smashed, or chewed on. A pit couldn't do that. I looked at pictures of pits after a fight and they were alive and didn't look anything like that. These dogs look like someone took a chainsaw to there necks. Only one wolf can bite a neck at a time. The wolf would be faster , grab the pit by the neck and shake him until he was dead. There wouldn't even be a fight.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/27/2004
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Firedragon- I know that wolves have attacked people. But You can't listen to all the news papers. Here's why:A recent report in the British Columbia is typical. Two hunters in the winter of 1993 found themselves being trailed by a small lone wolf. The animal showed no aggressive tendencies, but the men panicked and shot it. The body was taken to the local conservation officer, who did not charge the two hunters. One week later, a provincial news magazine described the incident under the headline "Wolf Attack Near Chetwynd." Now imagine how often that has happened through the years. Don't believe everything you read. It's hard to know if you're talking about me or not in writing. Sorry! I don't think wolves who consistently kill livestock should stick around. I have read that they are put down though. Thats ok with me.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/27/2004
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snoopy, that's interesting about the wolf attack. I suppose the 80 people in India that were killed by wolves were shot by mistake. Contrary to John and others, I have actually been to some Russian federated states. THey have real wolf problems, there is not doubt about it and the people there are not mistaken. The people in the US telling them they are mistaken is the problem. I can read a newspaper and the truth always there if you look. Wolves CAN and do kill people and it ISN'T hysteria. It's funny to hear people say ... people in cities ... tell those in the countryside and that live with these problems ... that they are just stupid and mislead. "An un-collared wolf captured on the SCAR near Point of Pines was radio-collared as wolf #832 and released east of Escudilla Mountain just into New Mexico, but subsequently moved back to the capture site where he was located near a recently depredated livestock, although it is unknown whether #832 killed the cow. The parentage of this animal has not been determined yet as the blood tests have not been completed, as stated by John Oakleaf." http://www.wolftimbers.org/Mexican%20Wolf%20Adaptive%20Management%20Advisory%20Group%20.html YEA, even in primitive areas, they do blood tests to determine the wolf involved or if there are multiple wolves. In Federated States, there are too many. Wolves have even become difficult to poison, so dogs are dying instead! Anger against wolf-reintroduction suspected in western U.S. dog poisonings Tuesday, June 08, 2004 By Mead Gruver, Associated Press CHEYENNE, Wyoming � It had been a tranquil visit below the snowcapped peaks of Grand Teton National Park. Then Jim and Nancy Barrus' black lab began drooling, retching, and quivering uncontrollably. Two rangers at a campground store knew immediately what was wrong: The couple's pet Sammy was the latest victim of a poisoning spree � likely aimed at wolves � that has killed eight dogs and sickened 13 others. Authorities believe someone has been putting poison in hot dogs and balls of meat and scattering them along roads in western Wyoming and eastern Idaho. "I equate it to local terrorism," Nancy Barrus said. "They don't care who they hurt." Especially in rural areas, anger over the federal government's reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone National Park almost a decade ago has grown alongside the wolves' exponential increase in numbers � and the rising number of cattle, sheep, and big-game animals they have killed. http://www.enn.com/news/2004-06-08/s_24629.asp Wolves have become such a problem in Alaska, they are shooting all they can and have even allowed shooting on site from Airplanes!!! AR-News: Alaska judge halts wolf shootings for now jim robertson wolfcrest at hotmail.com Fri Nov 28 17:23:52 EST 2003 Previous message: AR-News: (US) 'No kill' animal advocate will spread concept to NYC Next message: AR-News: U.N. says great apes in danger worldwide Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaska judge halts wolf shootings for now THE ASSOCIATED PRESS ANCHORAGE, Alaska -- A Superior Court judge yesterday issued a court order to prevent temporarily the shooting of wolves from airplanes under a state predator control program. "At the order of the court, we're suspending operations for now," said Matt Robus, director the state Department of Fish and Game's division of wildlife conservation. Friends of Animals, a group based in Darien, Conn., joined seven Alaska plaintiffs in seeking the temporary restraining order after the state issued three permits to allow pilot-and-hunter teams to shoot wolves in the McGrath area of Alaska's Interior. http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20031124/011475.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/27/2004
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Also, when they are talking about "documented" accounts, they exclude all historical accounts. Science is that way. Pictures mean nothing. Also, if the wolf wasn't tested for rabies, the attack is not documented because it can't be shown to be a healthy wolf. Wolves in captivity do not count either. For example: "Alyshia Berzyck, of Minnesota, was attacked and killed by a wolf on a chain on June 3, 1989. The wolf tore up here kidney, liver and bit a hole through her aorta." http://www.natureswolves.com/human/aws_wolfattacks.htm Remember ... in parts of the Russian federation, as many as 10,000 died from rabid animals, primarily wolves. But none of these count. "There is no documented case of a healthy wild wolf killing a human in North America. By comparison, domestic dogs attack 3 million and kill 20 people each year. Wild non-socialized wolves fear humans and are rarely seen." http://www.wolvesontario.org/wolves/wolves/myths.shtml http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Pointless/Wolves.html The wolf must be wild and never have been in captivity or a pet (absolving fear of humans) and must be sick. If he isn't examined, they assume the wolf is sick. The same can be said about humans killing wolves. NONE of these would be documented! It should be known that wolf kill can easily be recognized because the wounds are so severe.....dog kill can also be recognized because the wounds are all of soft tissue. A pit, to repeat, has NEVER killed a healthy adult human. Wolves have killed thousands of people. The Vermont Legislative Research Shop Introduction of Wolves to Vermont "Wild wolves kill many animals, but they do not generally harm people because they are scared of humans so they avoid them whenever possible. In contrast to wild wolves, domestic dogs, pet wolves, and wolf-dog hybrids kill several humans every year in North America" In a recent study conducted by the Northern Prairie Wildlife Research Center in Minnesota, they found that the reintroduction of wolves could promote more tourism adding approximately $3 million annually to the state�s economy. However, maintaining wolf populations also incur costs. Examining one proposed plan by Minnesota Wolf Management Round Table, it was estimated that as the wolf population expands it will need to be controlled by hunting or by management by the state. They estimate that by 2005, the wolf population will have to be cut by 28-53% per year. There are other possible costs such as agricultural damages, and damages to livestock. They estimated that each wolf would cost about $146 by the year 2005 (Northern Prairie Wildlife Research Center 1999). References Northern Prairie Research Center. 1999. Estimated Costs of Maintaining a Recovered Wolf Population in Agricultural Regions of Minnesota. http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/1999/wpop/results.htm United States Fish and Wildlife Service. 1999. Gray Wolves In North America. http://midwest.fws.gov/wolf/learn/quandas.htr. United States Fish and Wildlife Service. December 18, 1997 News Release: "Management Laws Regarding Gray Wolves Remain". http://www.r6.fws.gov/pressrel/97-49.htr. http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/wolves.htm Dr. David Mech, wolf expert says (again, notice the "healthy wolf bit) "Nevertheless, these are the same wolves I have watched tackle an adult musk ox and tear it apart. Their jaws were strong enough to crack the ends off the musk ox's three-inch-wide leg bones. Relatives of these wolves to the south have been able to crack open the skulls of adult moose. It is clear that wolves could easily kill a human if they so desired. Yet, at least until recently, no one has ever turned up dead, missing, eaten or even seriously injured by a nonrabid wolf during all the many millions of visitor days in our national forests, parks and other wilderness areas where wolves reside." http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_d_who's_afraid_of.htm Again, Mech discounts historical accounts, even recent account ... for example in 1911 a pack of wolf slaughtered 130 people at a wedding party. Mech completely dismisses this. He also dismisses other accounts as being accounts of rabid wolves. "A final part of the answer, however, is rather disconcerting. I am referring here to incidents, mostly in Asia and Europe, in which wolves apparently have killed or seriously injured people. For centuries such accounts have emanated from areas like Russia, China, the Mideast, and even Spain and other European countries. Many such accounts are no doubt attributable to rabid wolves which, like rabid dogs, squirrels and skunks, will attack people. Many other accounts are clearly fabrications or extreme exaggerations, such as the 1911 newspaper report from Tashkent in the former Soviet Republic of Georgia which claimed that wolves killed an entire wedding party of 130 people." http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_d_who's_afraid_of.htm Obviously, in 1911 .. there were people there that were rational and there's no reason to doubt that the wolves did indeed kill these people. All states will have to hunt and kill wolves that introduce them.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/27/2004
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Haha! Mromero, did you say wolves fight in packs? First of all, many of the attacks on lone wolves....blood tests and electronic collars demonstrate this and they can hunt down a lone wolf. Secondly, pits are too week to kill even elderly in packs !!! They also attack in packs! For example, below SEVEN pit bull fighting dogs attack an 82 year old woman...she fought them off for ten minutes. Seven pit bulls attack, kill 82-year-old woman Saturday, December 13, 2003 Posted: 9:46 AM EST (1446 GMT) CITRA, Florida (AP) -- Seven pit bulls escaped from their owner's home and mauled an 82-year-old neighbor to death Friday. " http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/12/13/pitbull.attack.ap/ Two pit bulls combined couldn't kill a VERY elderly man in a wheel chair!!! "Two pit bulls attack elderly man in Palatine" By Michael Puente Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Thursday, May 13, www.dailyherald.com/news_story.asp?intid=3812015 Even small, older women can kick the ass of multiple pits: Pit bulls attack Oildale woman Monday afternoon, sheriff's reports indicate Deavers two pit bulls jumped the fence and attacked Dorita Mosley, 52, who was waiting at a corner for her daughter to get off the school bus. She attacked the pit bulls and chased them off, and is critical of the way Deavers was controlling his dogs. " http://www.kget.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=059A83BE-7C72-4CFE-8756-BEACC14DC2F4

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/27/2004
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They are afraid of us because we can reach and and touch them as far as well can see ... a mile away in some cases or more. Animals are neat. Have you ever seen a dog eat steak? I feed my dogs steak, the type that is broad and about an inch thick. They pick it up with their front teeth, the ones wolves use for gripping ... but do you know how they actually eat the steak? Or do you always feed your animals cereal. I supplement the steak, but I think that dogs deserve something good. If I won't eat it, I don't give it to my dogs. Animals that are domestic ... are like family. They should not be exposed to dangers ... and Snoopy, everyone that has been in the field knows that deer can be very dangers ... mule deers kick ass and the Japanese deer is so ... tough and aggressive, they are really dangerous. It kind of makes me sick to listen to pit owners that fight their dogs or offer them to fight me. The dog is not bad, he's just doing what he was trained to do or what is in his nature. And if paths do not cross, everyone is OK. The pit lives a good life and dies a happy death, usually in his sleep. It's not like the wild where everything dies by tooth and claw. There is a brotherhood of humans that run and strengthen their experience in the wooods. The dog is a part of that but never to be isolated or to be left to kill a wild animal. That's what the knife, the bow, and the bullet does. That's its job. The dog is your partner.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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Proof, Proof, Proof. You have published nothing firelier, maybe a fictional child's book like "little red riding hood". Proof where are the picture and bodies. NO BODY IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. In this day and age NO PICTURE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! FIREDRAGON THERE IS AN INCREDIBLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "HEARSAY, SECONDHAND INFO." AND THE TRUTH. NOBODY HAS ANSWERED MY BEAR STATEMENTS EITHER, YOU TWO HAVE STAYED AWAY FROM MOST OF WHAT I'VE SAID BECAUSE I LIVE WITH THESE ANIMALS. YOU LIVE WHERE THEY DON'T, WELL MAYBE A LITTLE BLACK BEAR ONCE IN A WHILE, UNFORTUNATELY PEOPLE LIKE SNOOPY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE BROWN BEAR UP HEAR WOULD EAT THAT 300LBS SNACK!! 3 TRIALS WITH A MECHANICAL PRESS WHAT PSI DID THE FEMUR OF A 9 YEAR OLD AND 2 FROM A 8 YEAR OLD FEMUR FAIL AT? 1. 8 YEAR OLD LEFT FEMUR FAILURE @ 6673 PSI 2 8 YEAR OLD RIGHT FEMUR FAILURE @ 6520 PSI 3 9 YEAR OLD SIDE UNKNOWN FAILURE @ 6129 PSI Read it an weep, FIRESNOOPY NO WOLF CRUSHED ANYTHING LIKE THIS

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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otherperson- That's so sweet, you remind me of being in grade school. I have done a lot of reading on pit bulls. They are trained athletes. A game pit bull is a dog with a strong desire to fight.There is no such thing as a wild game wolf. I was resding about sled dogs and the owner was talking about the advantage of sled dogs with wolf blood. Even though these trained athletes do their job well they still don't have the endurance of a wolf. A wolf would not be interested in pit fighting. Wolves are afraid of people. The wolf would just want out. I posted a question and answer. Can a wolf kill two dogs.The answer was yes, if the wolf is fighting. The wolf needs a reason to fight, like protecting his cubs or his territory. I have seen pictures of pit fight and they really don't compare to the damage I have seen that a wolf can do to a dog. Again natureswolves.com Three pitbulls could not kill a male african lion. Lions also have been fighting for thousands of years protecting their pride from rival males. I read about a tiger who killed 13 wild dogs in one fight. The joke is on you retard.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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Idiot England, haha! You know nothing about dogs and your hollow shell might be full of fake images, but mine is not. The pit bull is just a dog, a small dog that cannot be compared to a wolf. I have always said this. NO, I am certainly not afraid of a pit bull...my only fear is that if one attacked me, I might have to hurt it. I have consistently said pit bulls are a danger to small children, to the elderly, and the infirm. They can do harm to a healthy adult, but it's unlikely they can injure a healthy adult fatally. I am against any type of dog fighting and find MOST pit bull owners to be weak in mind and body. They certainly should not be around children or the elderly or the infirm...I am speaking of both pit bull owners AND the pit bull. It's not the pit bull's fault that he is can be harmful, but he should never be around children. Females are not as dangerous. Again, has anyone fed their dog a steak? Do you know how they eat it? It's interesting. I would NOT own a pit. They serve no purpose ... they are not big or dangerous enough to be guard dogs, they do not train well, and they are dangerous around children. They don't make good house pets. Losers usually own them. They can't get home owner's insurance, so they are poor. They must not have children or they don't care if they children are injured. So, losers.

Answer by Puretruth
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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Yes, Snoopy, I too watched your Cocker whip a tough game pit, the biggest in the USA. I was surprised. I have an eight pound Western Weasel that attacked an Alaskan Kodiak adult male bear. It was a close fight, but the weasel prevailed. I have seen many such fights and I have posted the truth. Mromero won't answer my challenge directly and he won't answer my questions. The Western weasel at eight pounds is more powerful and mean than a 2,000 pound bear. A few years ago, the weasel killed an eleven thousand pound elephant seal. The seal believe the weasel was about to mount one of his mates and the fight was on! Hey, Snoopy...did you read that two pits couldn't kill or even seriously injure an elderly person in a wheelchair...I wonder though, could a lion do this? Or how about a 91 year old woman? She fought a couple pits off....and how about the old lady that fought eight pits for 20 minutes? Do you think a lion could take her on? Or how about the Collie/Shep mix that whipped three pit bulls ... wow. this must be a brute!

Answer by Dan
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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no doubt a lion would take so many of any kind of dogs,to kill it that it would have to be like ants swarming a larger insect.thats just some bozo on the wolverine site talking anyhow.a mt.lion just killed a 85lb.pit here about 15 miles from me.so i know a big cat is stronger and has sharp usable claws.your right wolves cannot pit fight,out in the wild i don't think you will get a fair one on one wolf pit bull fight.besides the best pit fighting pit in the U.S.A. AIN'T GOING BE OUT RUNNIN IN THE WOLF INFESTED WOODS NOW IS HE?SO I GUESS THE WHOLE DAMN POINT IS SORT OF MOOT NOW ISN'TIT?IF YOU BRING A WOLF TO THE PIT AND HE WILL NOT FIGHT-AND THE BEST PIT WILL NOT BE LOOSE IN THE WOODS? BUT YOU ARE RIGHT THE PEOPLE I KNOW THAT HAVE PET WOLVES,SAY THEY ARE VERY SHY ANIMALS THAT ARE NOT SUCH GOOD PETS,EVEN THOUGH THEY RAISED THEM FROM PUPS.I KNOW ONE GUY THAT HAS A FEMALE THAT HE CAN LET RUN LOOSE.WHEN MY DOGS AND I WALK BY HIS YARD SHE GETS UP AND GOES AROUND BACK.WE ARE NOT THREATENING HER SHE JUST IS SHY.SO MAYBE WE DO NOT HAVE SO MUCH TO DISAGREE ABOUT.BECAUSE THE WOLF DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD PET.A GOOD WILD ANIMAL BUT PET NO.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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I've given you plenty of CDC info to prove that Pits have killed adults. That has been proved, as sad as I am about it. You keep saying that it has never happened. I've given you the names and dates they were killed, and the type of dog that the police dept. had. But FIRESNOOPY has never one time given any proof of a single person killed by a wolf. What about a single body (corpse). Why is there not one grieving family, because a wolf killed there healthy adult son.? So the original question was what has more PSI? I have read so many times that a wolf could "CRUSH" the femur of a moose. "TEAR" it right off and bite it in half, is what they said. hahahahaha So You have seen what it takes to "CRUSH" a fresh cow FEMUR IN MY EARLIER POST, where are ya FIRELIER. What about you Fireneal, Firesnoopy, anything to say now. NOW I'M SURE YOU ALL ARE GOING TO COME BACK AND SAY BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. YOU'LL FIND SOME KIND OF BS NEWS PAPER ARTICLE WITH HIDDEN SOURCES AND NO NAMES. AND CALL IT PROOF, ONCE AGAIN. Kinda shoved that theory up you a$$. Because you choose to get your info from TV, "THE GREAT DISCOVERY CHANNEL" BOW DOWN AND WITNESS WHAT YOUR T.V. GOD HAS SHOWN. On the 22 June they ran a special about Crocodile. Not sure what it was but I started to notice something about the creature said to have the strongest Jaws on earth. Every time that they attack and eat a 4 (four) legged animal they DID NOT CRUSH the FEMUR of these animals (although they were 900lbs. smaller than a moose). Every time the croc would bite the animal incredibly hard, my guess as hard as they could. Then on video they would go into a "DEATH ROLL" and rip a the leg off the animal. Keeping in mind that this animal is 700# to 900# smaller than a moose. The croc is in some cases 18' long and 2000#. Even when they had the "FEMUR" or leg of the animal in there mouth they would kind of throw it up and chomp it. This is repeated over and over on these shows. YOU KNOW I NOTICED SOMETHING, THE CROC DIDN'T EVEN DO WHAT YOU GUY'S ARE CLAIMING THAT A 80lbs. WOLF DOES ON A REGULAR BASIS. "CRUSH THE FEMUR". I DID DO THIS WITH A MACHINIST AND HIS PRESS. IT TOOK AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE TO DO THAT. SO FIRELIER, FIRESNOOPY, FIRENEAL, AND HOWEVER MANY OF THERE THAT YOU ARE NOW, YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT THE 80LBS. WOLF CAN DO WHAT A CROC CAN NOT. YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT A WOLF HAS A BITE OF AT LEAST 6500PSI. FOOLS SO IF YOU MEASURE THE STRIDE OF A CHEETAH AND THAT OF A GREY HOUND THEY ARE BOTH ABOUT 7 FEET LONGER THAN THAT OF A WOLF RUNNING. THIS DEFIESSIMPLE PHYSICS AND THE CLAIM THAT THEY (WOLVES CAN RUN 55mph. NO PROOF OF A SINGLE BODY OF SOMEONE KILLED. NO PROOF OF A SINGLE "CRUSHED" FEMUR. NO PROOF OF A SINGLE VIDEO OF A 55mph wolf. BUMMER DUDES, YOU'VE FOUND OUT!!!!!!!!!!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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I guess not. I don't think a wolf would win in a pit fight. It wouldn't be much of a fight though. In the wild is a different story. The alpha male would fight a pit bull to the death. If you have seen the pictures on natureswolves.com a wolf is capable of serious bone crushing damage to a dog. The one dogs head is alomst torn off. It is not really fair to compare a dog with a wild animal. Nobody has answered me as to if they have gone to see the pictures. Although I can't show you that the wolf would win in the wild I have shown you what they are capable of. I think ranchers would use pit bulls if they were able to kill a wolf on their own. Wolves are also very tuff animals. They get kicked in the head every time they want to eat. They get broken ribs and still hunt again. Their heads are different than a dogs, so are their teeth. In the same way that a pit bull grabs a dog and won't let go, they grab a moose and don't let go. The cindrella wolf of the druid pack takes down an elk by herself. If you don't believe me rent the video. I already listed it's title many times. Their teeth are up to 2 inches long. Longer teeth more damage. The wolf kills the dog just by biting him in the throat or on his side breaking his ribs and causing the dog to choke on his blood. Wolves don't really fight, they aim to kill and to kill quickly. I think most of you need to watch these videos. Unlike dogs wolves teeth interlock so the can hold on better. They have broader skulls for more strength. To me, their head looks kind of like a pit bulls only bigger with a longer snout. But they are not good at fighting like a person trains a dog to be. They are however very good at killing.

Answer by no name
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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I have volunteered at an animal sacutuary - keepers of the wild - which had wolves, lions, tigers, etc. I don't know if a wolves PSI is more than a pits, but I would not want a wolf biting me. Before you decide to tangle with a wolf, go watch a pack of them feed. When the food is being brought out, they are bouncing straight up (from all 4's, not leaping) over 6 feet in height. Scary as hell. Their mouths are huge, as are their teeth. These are 100 pound plus wolves, not domesticed half-breeds, and are extremely powerfol. To feed them, you put the frozen chicken in a pan, and shove it through an opening in their cage, and get the f*** back as soon as you can. I personally have never seen a more aggressive animal feeding. A handful of wolves eat 40 pounds of food in seconds, basically as soon as you put the food in the cage, it is gone.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 6/29/2004
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http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1100000/images/_1100555_beara300.jpg&imgrefurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1100555.stm&h=180&w=300&sz=10&tbnid=H2jY_7_l9RUJ:&tbnh=66&tbnw=110&start=13&prev=/images%3Fq%3Danimal%2Bbaiting%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8 here you will find some pictures and stories of pitbulls fighting bears still today.look, i don't like to be an asshole but you are obviously new to the breed and haven't done any extensive research on it.the first step to true wisdom is knowing you have never accomplished the first step. you can't always cling to people like firedragons for support and you have to learn there is so much more to learn.no one here knows everything but you can piece together a general picture if you open your mind.even firedragons has a few good points along with some others.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 6/29/2004
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www.peoriahs.org/dogfighthistory.htm here you will find a humane society website that shows a very brief history of the pitbull and what they once were used for.as you will see not only did they fight bears and LIONS, they would die trying to kill elephants.like i said before on the wolverine site, the dogs were much larger then, but they are the origin of pitbull nun the less.also the lions and bears had 30 to 40 ft. chains attached to a collar to keep them from running away.3 pitbulls vs lion,2 vs bear usually.from what some of my books say many of the dogs died, but some were victorious. and as you can see on the other site,even pitbulls today despite there small size will take on a bear at least 4,5,6 times there size and do some pretty good damage, not to mention it looked like the dogs won.there is so much more out there you would never believe or even hear of,does that make it not true? who are you to decide history is wrong and you are right?these little dogs we call pitbulls have something very special that NO OTHER animal has.there willpower exceeds anything you could ever imagine. when you would crumble into a little ball so battered you give in to fate, is when the pitbull is at his best.selective breeding has taken the fear and replaced it with "game", something you will never understand fully unless you see it with your own eyes.say and think what you will, but even you my dear, don't know it all.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/29/2004
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Person, animal lovers exaggerate dog fighting. Most have never seen a dog fight and have no idea what goes on. Now, some people use "curs" to train their dogs and so the police will find dead dogs in animal fight territory...but a pit can barely kill a cat. They use the cat to get the pit going. But come on ... only a moron would believe that a weak animal such as a pit that ... can't even kill a healthy adult human could do anything but get killed by bears. By the way, I posted and cited a site that was original with bear baiting. Some bears killed a hundred dogs in a day, but the dog never won. The king actually had the same 12 or 13 bears for eight years. As for the dude talking about some movie...yea, right. Many get their information from Hollywood now. Haha! Every seen Zena? She could whip fifty mean and fly! Yea, you can find people fighting bears, but winning is the ticket. Haha! Animal historians are often fools. That's not true about herding dogs, Dan. You don't know anything about hunting either probably. My dogs are all males. They get along fine. The dogs establish themselves and fight a lot at first then stop. Sometimes, it starts again. Wolf packs also have female. The wolf pack generally consists of the dad, mom, and kids. So the other wolves are often immature. I guess no one feeds their dogs steak. I have not had any replies to how a dog eats steak. It's funny ... there seems to be very few real animal people here. I have also seen wolves feeding. They are different from dogs. If you really think a dog or even several of them were a match for a bear, you should get a couple of your friends and fight a bear. It might teach you something. The dogs teeth are not even long enough to seriously injure the bear...they must bite through hair and hide that is very thick. The dog does not stand a chance...the entire spectacle involved watching the dogs die.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/29/2004
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Firedragon- I own a cockerspaniel, he won't even eat raw chicken. He's a total weenie, he won't eat a raw steak. I have trouble getting him to walk on wet grass. When it's raining I have to lock him outside until he goes. One of my cats was killed by a pit bull. He cornered my cat on the porch and shook it in his mouth. The cat ran off and died under the porch. I was very unhappy with the dog, he did it for no reason. The stupid owner let go of his leash and he ran into our yard on our porch and killed our cat. The owner begged my parents not to call the pound because the dog had bitten several people and killed a few cats. If my parents had turned him in he would have been put down. Not much to say for our poor cat though.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/29/2004
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When the wolves attacked the young man�s camp, dogs were killed and others severely wounded in the fight. Perhaps none of the dogs would have survived if their human friend hadn�t stood in the midst of the fight and fired a gun to frighten the wolves away. He would not have been able to stand among the wolves if his dogs hadn�t defended his life at the risk of their own. It took courage for all involved because wolves are large and very deadly fighters. The wolves had to see dirt fly in front of them (kicked up from shots fired into the ground) before they quit attacking. After a careful and patient evaluation the wolves broke off the fight and nonchalantly ambled into the pines. The young man did not hurt any of the wolves. He did not hate the wolves.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/29/2004
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WHAT A TIMBER WOLF DID By S. C. Turnbo Among the narratives of hunting is the following which was told me by the old timer Joe Hall who died near Pontiac, Mo., in the month of May, 1900, and is buried in the graveyard at the mouth of Bratton�s Spring Creek. Mr. Hall in relating the story said that "many years ago I and another hunter whose name I disremember now were one day hunting on horseback near the three tall hills known as the Brothers when we saw a large wolf leap out from among a bunch of small cedars that stood against a low edge of rock and ran beyond our view. We had two dogs with us that had proved to be brave while in contact with a bear. When the wolf started off in a run the two dogs gave chase. We supposed that there were a lot of young wolves under the cedar bushes and dismounting we made a search for them but did not find any, and we had just got out from among the cedars when we saw one of the dogs coming at full speed pursued by the same wolf. Both animals did their best running. The cliff or ledge was between 4 and 5 feet high and we were standing 6 feet from it. The dog made straight toward us with the wolf near his heels and gaining on the frightened canine at each bound and it did not take the racing animals but a few moments to reach the top of the ledge and the dog in its frantic efforts to escape the wolf leaped over the ledge of rook and jumped over our heads and struck the ground a few yards in our rear and stopped. The wolf halted on the brink of the ledge and looked at us in a vicious manner. We could have easily shot it but its sudden appearance and boldness put a bluff on us both and we stood with our rifles in our hands and forgot to shoot. Of course it did not remain there long before it wheeled about and ran back the way it had come. The other dog failed to put in an appearance and we mounted our horses and rode off the way the two dogs had chased the wolf from the cliff and found him a half a mile from the cliff badly wounded. He was not able to stand on his feet. It turned out that while the two dogs were pressing the wolf so close that the latter had stopped for a fight and had nearly killed this dog and chased the other one back to us. But in the race the dog had run a circuit and reached us from another direction from the way the wolf had run from the ledge. I took the helpless dog up before me on the horse and carried him home where we lived on White River below the mouth of Jimmie�s Creek. The dog finally got well but he never got over that scare from the drubbing that wolf gave him and after that he was afraid of wolves as long as he lived."

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/29/2004
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When dogs eat steak, they grip the steak in their front teeth initially, but move it to the side of their mouths. You hear that dogs don't chew, they just gulp, but it doesn't seem true. The dogs chew the meat and it is definitely in pieces. They chew and manipulate the meat sideways through their mouth. It's kind of cool. I give them bones too ... but am afraid of chicken bones, afraid they will choke. These are dogs that are strong as any dogs. They could easily whip their weight in pit bulls, but I would not even let them fight a skunk. Why risk an injury ... and for what? I was injured once by a Japanese deer ... you don't expect something like that to be so mean, but they are big and strong. In days when they bear baited, it was outlawed because it seemed cruel to the dogs. Dogs would die and they would replace them and then more would die. It was like putting the dogs against one of those guys in protective clothing...the dogs couldn't even bite to the flesh. Ever felt a bear hide? The hair is thick ... the hide is thick and it has a couple inches of fat under that. Dogs can dig their teeth in all they want...it won't hurt the bear, but it makes him angry.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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Rick- I was talking about the picture where they are pulling one dog off the bears ear and the other dog is looking up underneath the bear. The bear looked pretty messed up before it began to fight. I want you to know that I don't dislike pit bulls. Ever since people like you have been writing into this I have learned a lot about them. I would even get a pit bull if I could find a breeder I could trust. I respect the courage and strength of the pit bull above all other dogs. I must ask again do any of you know where to get a black and tan pit bull? My father had one once that was stolen. I would like to get him another one for his birthday. I am sure your dogs are great and will fight to the death. But you must remember where the pit gets its strength. From the wolf. A wolf is a wild animal and a killing machine everyday of its life. Killing things bigger than it is its life. Have you looked at the pictures from natureswolves.com?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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OK Dan ... The Winchester .270 is a believable rifle...it's not too expensive. Winchester saved big bucks by necking down a .30-06. My grandfather had one. I like the Weatherby and prefer 130 grain. Anyway, I guess if you're shooting through brush, a little weight is a good thing. Did you say you were shooting bear or moose? Why did you use a kicker caliber on a coyotte? It's kind of a waste of money, but I guess ... some people are like golfers and they take out the right iron for the right shoot. I might have liked a 223...very cheap. Generally, I don't shoot anything I don't eat, and I don't like coyotte...it reminds me of dog. I can't eat goats either. I used to have one for a pet. Sheep remind me of goats. 250 yards certainly isn't a long shot ... but kicker calibers make it a little more difficult. I even like the rim fire rounds for this sort of thing. Did you skin them? Did you eat them? Some like the taste of coyotte.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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Just where does the black and tan "Rottweiler looking" pattern come from, and is it a sign that an APBT is not purebred? Since this color pattern pops up more frequently in our bloodline than in some others, we have been asked about this on quite a few occasions. We thought we would take the time to write up a short article explaining this color pattern, how it is inherited, and where it comes from. The tan point pattern is caused by a recessive gene on the Agouti series gene locus, the following are the alleles (variations) that are definitely known to occur in the American Pit Bull Terrier. There are also a couple of other genes on this same locus, but they are most likely not present in this breed, so we will ignore them in this article to try and keep things simple. Please tell me if you know where to get one of these dogs. They are black and tan with a white star on their chest. My dad used to have one named kazak and it was stolen.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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NEAL 6-26 I must have missed the post where the idiot stated that I said "Whatever J.C., first off yall, just ignore Mromero, because this guy stated that his Dogo killed a jaguar by itself". I Dare you to find where I posted anything like that. Everything that we have written has been on this site, and is still on this site, find it prick. Just another lie from yours truly FIRELIER. You must understand that I would never say anything like that because: I don't own that type of dog. I don't own that type of mind. I would NEVER EVER state that any K9 or wolf could kill or best any type of cat larger than a house cat, simply put anyone of these animals will quickly meet its fate with one of these animals, this includes a wolf. I don't own or even know what a "Dogo" is, I own Professionally trained American Bull Dog, and use him for work. I would never "fight" any animal against another, NEVER. Once again you all lies. Again I would DEFY you to find that post.!!!!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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SNOOPY- A BROWN BEAR OF ANY KIND (ALSO KNOWN AS KODIAK AND GRIZZLY) WOULD AND DO FEED ON WOLVES AND ANY TYPE OF DOG. YOU ARE BEGINNING TO SHOW YOUR AGE. ALSO, I LIVE IN THESE MOUNTAINS IN CASE YOU DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW THAT. CHEYENNE WYOMING IS ABOUT 350 MILES FROM THE PARK. IT IS A LOT CLOSER TO ROCKY MOUNTAIN NATIONAL WHERE I LIVE. LEARN HOW TO READ A MAP. THE ONLY MOUNTAINS AROUND CHEYENNE IS 1 (PASS) ON THE WAY TO LARAMIE WY. ON TOP OF THAT PASS YOU'LL FIND "BUFFALO BILLS SHRINE". IT'S NOT REALLY A PASS EITHER KIND OF A 4000' DROP IN ALTITUDE BY CUTTING A GROOVE INTO A CLIFF. I know RUMORS, RUMORS, RUMORS, STORIES, STORIES, STORIES, BUT KNOW EVIDENCE................................. PROVE IT.............................. PICTURES NOT STORIES................

Answer by other person
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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PETE- since others didn't have a problem with them, i'd say thats your problem not mine. besides, your'e a moron and i really don't care what you think, so those sites really weren't meant for you anyway. i don't want to waste time with you, only the people who are some what educated so i won't respond to you any more.o.k.,bye,and good luck, you need it!!SNOOPY- despite the animal abuse, i hope you see my point by those sites. these are amazing little creatures that deserve a little more credit.as far as firedragons goes, yes he's a smart man with good intentions,but if you hadn't noticed he is only a dogman himself who is sick of seeing his favorite breed in the hands of idiots,so he puts on this whole show in hopes it will make them(pits) a little less popular.and as far as the wolves go,i am by no means an expert and i greatly respect the wolf, but even you said it best. "The wolf's great hunting skills lies in its determination and ability to seek out vulnerable prey."key word here is vulnerable. most pitbulls won't even look in the direction of something vulnerable, they prefer a challenge. this is what i mean by the pitbull is like no other animal.they really don't mind one bit if they are the underdog(no pun intended).this gives them a great advantage that shouldn't be confused with confidence, its more like they just don't care. I for one have never seen a wolf vs dog, and wolves would scare the sh!t out of me but i do know pitbulls, and i know if you've seen a true game breed pitbull, and not a backyard bred poor example of a pitbull, then you wouldn't be so sure of yourself.

Answer by Dan
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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my rifle is a pre-64 model 70.has been in the family for years.the reason i used it was,a mt.lion has been sighted and killing some dogs and stock in the area lately.i was not sure what had killed the deer.[torn up badly] yes i know i am not a stellar world wide hunter like you say f.d.-but i do what i can within my regions limits. no i did't want their flea bitten hides,nor did i care to dine on them.they are pests to me,i do not hate them but theres more than enough around.223 i have a mini 14 in this,but its little 55 grain bullet would not have killed both anyhow,at that range. i like to shoot yotes with a 22mag. when i call them in though, its fun to place the hollow point just right for a quick kill. bears? i prefer my old remington 600 in 350 mag. does'nt have the range of the .270,but i like its 250 grain bullet up close.that seems to be where the shots are at anyhow.never killed a bear over 200 yards as its fairly thick woods around here.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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Yes, I like the rimfires for plinking....coyotes in many states can be hunted year round and you don't even have to have a license to kill them. But I don't really shoot animals for fun. I prefer to reduce the herd because of problems with starvation or whatever. Coyotes are too small to effect animals that interest me. The ones in the mountains are a lot bigger, maybe twice as big as in the Dakotas. They average about 22 pounds or less in the plains and they seem to be small in West Texas as well. I don't understand what you mean by "hate" That is a strange term. I have never really heard anyone use it before ... maybe ranchers about predatory animals that kill their stock, but coyotes generally only kill chickens and such. I don't hate any of the animals I have hunted, they are just meat or maybe they present a danger in the area. The Wildlife people take sames of bone and can tell when there is starvation. As for OTHER PERSON again, your "arm chair" logic is lacking in direction. The wolves can spot vunerable animals, but the stock they kill are not even sick in most cases. Ill animals are taken from the herd and generally closed fenced or housed in a barn for a time until they can recover or be rendered. Wolves kill healthy steers. They kill healthy moose. In some areas, such as Colorado and WY, there is a horrible disease ... the animal definitely appears strange and it's easily spotted. The legislature there is talking about having more wolves in these areas to get rid of this population; however, when this population is gone, they prey on the healthy population. A wolf is a formidable animal. No dog can really compare to its killing ability, but the dog has a different purpose. I am disgusted by these misfits that talk about using their animals to kill wild animals. It would be cruel and sick, plus the dog could be injured. Even a sick animal that weighs hundreds of pounds is dangerous. Wild horses, for example can cause serious injury by biting, kicking, or charging. Deer can also be dangerous and can harm people. Of course, even very small animals can kill. Snakes are everywhere in areas around Amarillo or near there. I can find a rattlesnake in less than ten minutes...so, they are everywhere and people are bit. Lots of danger in the woods and in the grasslands. Everything is hunting or hunted, including hunters. Bear can see color or at least they can tell when you flag. I often worry about being shot. It happens. Anyone that says they see wolves fight pit bulls all the time and lose is a liar. The wolf is not apt to want to fight in a pit, but if it is attacked, the dog will be dead. Just like that.

Answer by macker
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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you fag....thats what argentine dogos do you retard....don't take my word for it look it up...go to google and try and find some pictures of dogos hunting and you'll see. and i didn't mean that any dogo could do it , and i said my dogo jumped and caught it but it didnt kill it alone , i said it took down a jag alone ' it took 3 more dogos to kill it.. and it was by mistake.my dog was completely torn apart around his rib cage. NObody willingly hunts jag here but dogos hunt whatever they see. Look it up on your own, dogos were specifically bred for this. And neal you're that guy that said that you and your dog butch like to fight side by side...hahahahaha what a loser, and a wolf doesnt have more psi, a wolf cant sprint faster then a gry hound or pull more weight than an american bulldog, a pit is bred to have strong jaws. man has changed the wolf to meet his needs, wolfs are the original and allaround best, but many breeds can beat them at certain things. oh and a wolf cant run at 55mph ..african wild dogs run at 45mph because they hunt gazelle and impala while wolfs hunt bigger slower animals like elk. but still a pit doesnt have the strongest jaws out of the dog world.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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Wolf Ecology: How wolves interact with other predators. BEARS: Wolves and bears can coexist peacefully and often avoid each other. However, wolf-bear interactions can be quite violent. Grizzly bears (Ursus arctos) will sometimes dig up, kill, and eat wolf pups. As a result, wolf packs will attempt to drive away grizzly bears that get close to the dens where wolf pups are living. Wolves may even attack, and have been known to kill, a grizzly bear that gets too close to the den. Wolves and grizzly bears have been seen fighting over animal carcasses from helicopters in Alaska. Bears will scavenge off of kills made by wolves, and they may try to drive a wolf or a few wolves off of a kill. Wolves can be quite aggressive towards black bears. There are records of wolves preying on black bears (Ursus americanus), and wolves have been known to kill and eat hibernating bears. Wolves will also attack black bear cubs when the mother bear cannot get to them and hurry them up a tree fast enough. Black bears will also occasionally kill wolf cubs.

Answer by Dan
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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hey dude, i said i did not hate the coyote.they are o.k. in smaller numbers,but thats not the case.so i shoot them when the chance comes.some people do hate them, because they have killed their cats and small dogs.i do not own those, so thats no reason with me.i do not agree with you on the wolf -dog fight deal,but so what?i just think you are wrong and you think i am. snoop that color pit is not common.pits are not bred for color so much as ability.so you see different colors come up in litters all the time.now these days some do bred pits to be ,black,blue or some color.the old pit dog men did not as ability was it with them. i would be careful buying a pit bull anywhere these days.as many are not very good dogs.if you want information about pits just type in pitbulls on google.i get lots of positive web sites that way.i am not so much pro-pit bull as i am pro-dog.have owned many breeds.like the hunting dogs and ''rough'' dogs best.only have one pit now shes a nice brindle dog.gets along great with people and other dogs that do not start fights.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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this doesn't prove pitbulls can kill a bear so don't assume this is my intentions,but it does prove there jaw power is more then what firedragons says. "Field investigator, John Joseph, who is leading WSPA's campaign to stop bear baiting, witnessed at first hand the appalling cruelty. "At one event a bear's nose had been bitten almost to the bone. The huge scar which had developed was immediately bitten off by the first pair of attacking dogs causing it to bleed profusely. Incredibly, the bear fought off the first two dogs and endured three further bouts before it succumbed." At another event John saw a young bear that was being pitched against the dogs for the first time. "It fell to the ground almost immediately and squealed as the dogs clamped theirs jaws to its muzzle. It took the organisers over a minute to separate the animals." Crucially, the investigation showed that many events were still taking place with the full compliance of police and local authorities."

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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Every wolf site I have been to says they can reach speeds up to 45mph. Every greyhound site says they can only reach this speed in sprints. Here is how wild dogs catch their prey. African wild dogs live in tightly knit social groups and hunt cooperatively, preying primarily on grazing animals such as gazelles, springboks, wildebeest and zebras. Most predators stalk or ambush their prey, but these animals make no attempt to hide. They simply approach a herd until it stampedes, then single out an individual -- usually one that's slowed by old age or disease -- and chase it until it's exhausted. The dogs are swift, tireless runners. They've been known to chase prey for an hour, for as far as three and a half miles (5.6 km).

Answer by other person
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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"What sort or injuries occur? Bears sustain more injuries than dogs, usually ripped noses and mouths. Most are permanently scared but the killing of either animal is avoided as they are too valuable." this also came from the same site. i have recently learned that the bears are declawed and teeth removed, but as you can see in some of the pictures, some bears do have their claws and teeth.that is not the point anyway,the point is the pitbulls do inflict MAJOR damage upon the bears in which you people have said the wolves do to dogs. correct me if i am wrong but i would assume its harder to damage the muzzle of a bear then a dog. we have proof, it is done today, and you can't deny that, but you have only stated speculation on behalf of the wolf. before this site i thought a wolf would possibly have stronger jaws, i have now come to realize the pitbull is with out a doubt a dog that could very well be better adapt with jaw strength. if you don't see the facts, you are living in denial.i am by no means downgrading the wolf,for it is a great animal with great jaw strength and it very well could kill a pitbull in the right situation. i don't deny that, in fact i respect that.but if you don't see the capability's of the pitbull you are thinking one sided and can't see this subject with an open mind, therefor your opinion really isn't valid on any point of view.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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i also want to mention the injuries wolves inflict are not necessarily the result of bite pressure but the tearing effect of two or more wolves pulling in different directions. i know of a girl who was saved by a fed-ex man from two pitbulls who were fed large amounts of gun powder to make them mean. one dog had ahold of her ankle,the other just a clump of hair,they pulled in separate directions basically scalping the girl,leaving no skin or muscle left on her skull (top), only bone itself. they also took chunks of meat from one arm exposing bone along with some bad bone deep injuries on both her legs. she had to be med flighted to a major hospital in the area where she survived but can never grow hair on her head and is still in rehabilitation. just for the record she doesn't even blame the dogs, and now owns a pitbull herself along with her brother. this was a horrible tragic event in my area that was the result of a drug dealer war.the dogs were not trusted by there own owner and were abused. another dealer then fed the dogs large amounts of gun powder to try and make them go off on the owner. unfortunately he wasn't home and the girl was, and she admits mistreating them for their aggressive behavior seconds before they attacked.i hate even talking about it because it's not a good representation of the breed and i knew the girl pretty well.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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O.k., I just spent an hour reading about pit fighting. It is like a wrestling match with teeth. The dogs are not trained to kill they are trained to fight. The dogs don't growl or make any noise. They try to get a hold on one another and force each other to the ground. They don't usually end in death either. The trainer doen't want his dog to die he has spent too much money on him. this is totally different from a wolf. The pit bull would be trying to wrestle the wolf to the ground. A pit bull dosen't know to go for a throat hold and that would be his only chance if any. The wolf knows exactly how to kill the pit bull because he does it all the time. With bigger animals. Wolves don't really fight they just kill. The pit bull would be a better fighter than a wolf in a pit. A wolf is pure instinct and a wild animal not a fighter. Too fast for a pit bull anyway.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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The teeth of a wolf are adapted for their role as predators. They are similar to that of any other large, meat eating animal such as a lion or tiger. They need large, powerful jaws for attacking and holding on to prey. Wolves have 42 teeth compared to 32 for humans. The largest are the canines, or fangs, which measure over two inches long including the part within the jaw. The canine teeth on the top and bottom of the jaw interlock so that the wolf can grip and hold on to struggling prey. Wolves will aim for the nose, rump or throat of the prey in order to bring it down. Once the wolf has grabbed a hold on the prey, it will use the great strength in its jaw muscles to hang on. The small teeth in front of the mouth are incisors. Once the animal is down, the wolf uses these teeth to shear the meat off bones. The back teeth, or carnassialmolars, are designed to crush bones and mash the meat. Wolves' teeth are well designed for this hunting machine. Besides hunting, wolves teeth can serve other purposes as well. Adults carry wolf pups with their teeth. They are also weapons used against other predators or threatening wolves. Wolves also use their teeth as "ritual weapons". Wolves may show the some of the incisors and canine teeth in a "submissive grin." "Bared teeth" is an early warning of the possibility of an attack, especially if the muzzle is wrinkled. Just before a wolf bites, its mouth will be wide open. Thus teeth play a role in hunting, protection and communication. Return to "What is a Wolf?"

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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The Skull Coyote and wolf skulls from the Beaver Creek Reserve collection. Photos (c) P. Solfest 1999 According to some folk tales, wolf brains got larger and smaller according to the phrases of the moon. Maybe people noticed that wolves have large, broad heads, but it has nothing to do with the moon. The characteristics of a wolf's skull do help to distinguish it from dogs' and coyotes'. Wolves have a flat profile from the top of the skull to the tip of the nose. Dogs, on the other hand, have a steeper angle and a more noticeable "forehead." Wolves also have two dome shaped prominences on the base of their skulls. These large, round areas are much smaller in dogs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coyote and wolf skulls from the Beaver Creek reserve Collection. Photo (c) PSolfest One big difference between wolves and coyotes is size. A wolf is nearly twice as large a s a coyote. A coyote is around one and a half feet tall, while a wolf is about two and a half feet. Coyotes weigh around 25 to 40 pounds, compared to a wolf's weight of 60-100 pounds. Wolf skulls are also different from those of coyotes. Coyotes have a smaller "rostrum", or snout, in relationship to the brain case, which gives the coyote's skull a long, thinner look compared to the wolf. Its skull is also much smaller than the wolf's. The structure of the skull shows the wolf's role as predator. The broad muzzle of the wolf help it to hunt large prey. Wolves also have a well developed crest bone on the top of its skull. This is where a large muscle is anchored. The muscle operates the wolf's powerful jaws, giving it great strength, capable of producing 1,500 pounds per square inch of pressure. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wolf skull from the Beaver Creek Reserve Collection Photos (c) P. Solfest, 1999 Wolf skulls also have a large arching bone on the side. This bone serves to protect the eyes and auditory organs of the wolf. Without such protection, the wolf would be vulnerable to serious injury from the kicking hooves of prey, Wild wolf skulls often show evidence of bone injury. It is believed that younger wolves would be the most easily hurt by such blows since they are the least experienced hunters and more likely to be hit when they make their first attempts to hunt. Return to "What is a Wolf?" Page

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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Canine Hybrids: Issues Surrounding The Wolf Dog Wolf Hybrids Copyright �2001 By Diana Guerrero Photos Copyright � By Monty Sloan & Jill Moore Porter If you have stumbled across this article you are either very interested in canine hybrids, considering obtaining one, or already entrenched in ownership of an animal that is too complicated for your lifestyle. This article will touch on different issues surrounding this type of animal. There are seven parts to this document. WHAT IS A WOLF DOG HYBRID? (Parts 1 & 2) Wolf Dog Hybrid Identification OWNERSHIP ISSUES (Part 3) What Motivates Wolf Dog Hybrid Ownership Wolf Dog Hybrid Ownership Preparation Ownership Requirements BREEDING ISSUES (Part 4) Standardization Of The Breed Breeders WOLF DOG ISSUES (Parts 5 & 6) Wolf Dog Hybrid Attacks Behavior Problems Legalities Veterinary Medical Concerns Sanctuaries Or Scamtuaries What the Professional Organizations are Saying SUMMARY (Part 7) Why Wolf Dogs Are Not Good Pets RECOMMENDED READING, RESOURCES & CITATIONS (Part 8) WHAT IS A WOLF DOG HYBRID? The term, "hybrid" 1 can mean a lot of things, but here I am talking about the offspring that is a mix between two different species/subspecies of canine animals that are close enough genetically to reproduce. A Wolf Dog is the animal resulting from the breeding of a wild animal with a domesticated animal. Since the change in the scientific nomenclature in 1993,2 there have been arguments that a dog is a wolf and conversely that a wolf is a dog. They have common ancestry, but behaviorally and physically they do differ; even their nutritional needs vary. Wolves are wild animals that evolved from nature's strategy of "Survival of the Fittest." This means that the cleverest, strongest and healthiest animals survive to pass on their genes. These wild creatures are wary of humans and can be jumpy when in unfamiliar territory or strange situations. In contrast, over the past fifteen thousand years we molded the wild canine into the domestic dog. Through selective breeding we have chosen traits to form a companion animal that is amiable to our wishes, cooperative with humans and physically diverse. During that same time, wolves have developed fast reflexes and incredible jaw strength. This comes in handy during hunting. Speed helps to avoid injury and allows a low ranking animal to quickly steal tidbits from the kill. Jaw strength enables the wolf to rip through the hide and to shatter the bones of the prey for the precious marrow. Wolves serve to balance the environment and to cull out the sick and weak prey animals. They live in tight family groups called packs. Each has their role with a complex hierarchical system. Complex communication and communal care is contrasted with squabbles within the ranks and fights to rise in the hierarchy. Dogs, on the other hand, have been molded to stay in a cooperative and dependent state. They are adapted to accept human leadership and it is not essential for them to challenge that leadership or to change it. As our companions, dogs are adapted to living in our homes and families without having to mark or fight for territory or status. They accept our leadership and we are comfortable with them. This is different from the wolf who is territorial and who will vie for leadership upon maturity.

Answer by macker
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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well if you're asking me then i'lltell you. We were in the pampa where jags arent even that common anymorehunting for boar as is the common thing here. My dog is the lead dog which means hewas the head of the pack. he suddenly ran off towards the treesand jumped at the jag while the jag was jumping back. mmy dog went straight for the neck and held the jag while on the floor while he was getting his sides ripped open by the jag. dogos are bred to disregard pain so they never let go no matter what. he kept shaking until the other dogs came and each bit a section as they are trained to do. each dogo is trained to bite a certain part of the animal, they basically ripped it apart . you have to understand that dogos are 110-135 pounds of pure muscle and are bred to tangle with big game. look for videos if you dont believe me. while i was in peru they had a video in the news that showed 2 dogos killing a jag. and there is a training video in argentina of a dogo killing a jag in a cage alone. like i said many people dont believe anything unless a pit can do it too.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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I just really iked this story. The House Dog and the Wolf -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The moon was shining very bright one night when a lean, half-starved wolf, whose ribs were almost sticking through his skin, chanced to meet a plump, well-fed house dog. After the first compliments had been passed between them, the wolf inquired: �How is it, cousin dog, that you look so sleek and contented? Try as I may I can barely find enough food to keep me from starvation.� �Alas, cousin wolf,� said the house dog, �you lead too irregular a life. Why do you not work as steadily as I do?� �I would gladly work steadily if I could get a place,� said the wolf. �That�s easy,� replied the dog. �Come with me to my master�s house and help me keep the thieves away at night.� �Gladly,� said the wolf, �for as I am living in the woods I am having a sorry time of it. There is nothing like a roof over one�s head and a bellyful of victuals always at hand.� �Follow me.� said the dog. While they were trotting along together the wolf spied a mark on the wolf�s neck. Out of curiosity he could not forbear asking what had caused it. �Oh, that�s nothing much,� replied the dog. �Perhaps my collar was a little tight, the collar to which my chain is fastened �� �Chain!� cried the wolf in surprise. �You don�t mean to tell me that you are not free to rove where you please?� �Why, not exactly,� said the dog, somewhat shamefacedly. �You see, my master thinks I am a bit fierce, and ties me up in the daytime. But he lets me run free at night. It is really very convenient for everybody. I get plenty of sleep during the day so that I can watch better at night. I really am a great favorite at the house. The master feeds me off his own plate, and the servants are continually offering me handouts from the kitchen. But wait, where are you going?� As the wolf started back toward the forest he said �Good night to you my poor friend, you are welcome to your dainties - and your chains. As for me, I prefer my freedom to your fat.� Moral: Lean freedom is better than fat slavery.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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alright, how do i say this? well, i agree with you about the current situation going on.but i see no hope with this idea of getting rid of the problem.i'msorry i called you all out,and i probably shouldn't of done that but i can't listen to this anymore.why should we all degrade the pitbull. i for one can't disrespect something that has been there so faithfully for me.maybe it's time to give up and except reality.the pitbull is forming into many different "dogs" now, and we should all keep in mind that the general public does not have game bred dogs. so what if they think they do,and walk around like they are champs.just laugh them off and keep on with your own work.in time there breed will turn into 100% total teddy bears and there will be no comparison.already you have wannabe pitbulls losing to other dogs,this in itself will destroy the pitbulls reputation.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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In Pakistan, the teeth and claws are removed from the bear. The bear is much more valuable than the dogs...dogs are cheap everywhere, bears are always expensive. However, they don't want to lose too many dogs and even a small bear can kill dozens of dogs a day. I have posted accounts from England. The reason they banned bear baiting is because it was cruel to dogs....dog fighting was much better on the animal. The bears would kill dogs all day long and then the dog was replaced. By the way, actual genetic tests show that the wolves and dogs separated 100,000 years ago, not ten or 15. Also, ALL members of the canidae genus can interbreed. This includes foxes and wolves, but they don't do it naturally. The hybrids are from human intervention. When you read texts, you can tell that some people write dog articles and their entire knowledge is based upon one or two articles they have read, or sometimes it's an old article. For example, recent inquiry has determined that wolves can run as fast as 55mph. This is much faster than any dog. In past years, scientists had not measured the true speed of a wolf .. they determined their speed by the game they chased. In 2003, scientists clocked wolves chasing Pronghorns, the second fastest animal in the world. I AM ALSO WONDERING ABOUT A FEW PEOPLE HERE. Most of you seemed to have read the same site...why did you miss the fact that the bears don't have teeth or claws? They used to do this in the USA with bears and people and in Georgia, it's illegal ... they even cut the tendons of the bears to weaken them!!! WSPA Bear Baiting Bear baiting, which occurs only in Pakistan, is possibly the world's most savage blood sport. Having had their teeth and claws removed, Asiatic black bears are tied to a post All white dogs are not pits. It's funny. There was an article recently and it said that only 7% of people tested had "common sense" What seems obvious is that no dog or dogs would stand a chance against a bear. The bear is built for fighting. If the dog survives, the bear is sick or weakened. In many places, including the USA, people used to "wrestle" bears but the bears had their tendons cut and their teeth and claws removed. Now, common sense will tell you certain events will occur, including a dog won't stand a chance against a bear.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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OK. First of all, YES, the teeth and claws ARE removed. It looks as though my post had been edited, because I included the website � it was the same one that Snoopy and others were looking at�.except you didn�t read the entire text. They specifically stated that the bear had his TEETH PULLED AND CLAWS REMOVED> It looks as though my post was edited or something because I included this site citation in my post. It�s down below now, take a look. Now if HUNDREDS of dogs can not win against a bear that has had it�s teeth and claws removed, give me a break. Think about it! WSPA / Campaigns Bear Baiting �Bear baiting, which occurs only in Pakistan, is possibly the world's most savage blood sport. Having had their teeth and claws removed, Asiatic black bears are tied to a post� http://www.wspa.org.uk/index.php?page=40 I recently read that tests show only 7% of people have common sense. Before this, I would have thought only 7% DON�T have common sense. After reading these posts, I think that I would say most of you don�t have common sense. If you know how powerful a bear is, you know that even a hundred dogs aren�t going to fair well and you need to look on and see how this is being done � so, many of you looked at this WSPA site and didn�t read it all. That�s why you are such poor learners!!!

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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since it was me,one of the pro pitbull people who pointed it out that the bears were declawed and teeth removed,and not one of the anti pitbull people. then your theory firedragons about people not learning would account for every anti pitbull person on here. if you notice though in one picture the bear does have claws,so obviously its not always done.but like i said that wasn't the point anyway.the point was the damage the pitbulls did to the bear. if you read the whole site it said that the injuries to the bear wear bone deep.as disgusting as it is,you can't deny the fact that the dogs did do a number on the bears.lets not forget the bears had a several hundred pound weight advantage.and according to snoopy pitbulls wrestle right.so the bear should of been able to wrestle a medium size dog down and break its neck with its shear power.the pitbulls teeth could only sink an inch or so into the bear leaving the dogs teeth not much of a help against a bear anyway.this was a match of agility and wrestling where the odds were slightly evened, but the bears still had more power.some pitbulls did prevail despite the odds.its horrible what they did,but even without teeth the bears jaws could break bones just not hold on for long periods.and if one of these clawless bears slapped me,im sure it would knock me out.and if you notice snoopy, men had to stop the pitbulls,it wasn't that they couldn't kill it in time,it was they weren't allowed to.also in one picture you see a dog lunging tipping the bear backwards,that takes some strength to do!!!!could you knock a bear backwards?well,an animal half your size can.its the pitbull.id like to see an old lady in a wheelchair do that...3 of them even.now read closely-all animals have there good and bad qualities,no animal is better then another including the pitbull.but you can not deny the fact that the pitbull was bred to be a gladiator, and it has proven to have great fighting abilities.while other animals have evolved to be all around survivors in many situations, the pitbull has evolved into one concentrated area of survival, combat.the rest of you are blinded by your own ignorance if you can't see that the pitbull is well adapt for almost any combat situation.it might not win,but it doesn't know that, which from a military point of view,would be the perfect soldier for so called high risk missions that only had a slim chance of success. BIGDOG- i will be opening a new e-mail just for this on my computer at work tomorrow. i think youll understand my motives once we can discuss this.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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In the book "of wolves and men" by barry lopez, barry contends that some wolf packs have a member called the "omega". this wolf lives on the fringes of wolf society and always eats last if at all.the "omega" is usually a past "alpha" and sometimes "beta" member of the pack who possibly mistreated lower members of the pack.so here in lies my question,why would an ex "alpha"(best hunter of the pack) still depend on the same pack to survive? Common sense tells me he still needs the pack, thus proving even the "alpha" isn't confident in its own hunting ability when by itself.it depends on a community and often dies of starvation without the pack.a single wolf has a very hard time surviving on its own and isn't as common as you might believe.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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Wolf predation on ungulates varies seasonally. It is highest during mid to late winter, when animals have poor nutrition and the snow is deep, making them easier to kill. It is also quite high in early summer when the fawns are born, as wolves prey heavily on fawns. Wolf predation on deer is moderated by the severity of the winters. In a severe winter, wolves may kill healthy deer which would have survived the winter had they not had been made vulnerable by the deep snow. Conversely, in a mild winter, when the snow levels are low, healthy deer easily escape wolves. Therefore, the deer captured are primarily sick or weak. This would be an example of compensatory mortality, as most of these deer probably would not have survived the winter. This is why it is rare to find a starving deer in Minnesota wolf range

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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Haha!! "Other Person said, " if you notice though in one picture the bear does have claws" LISTEN DUDE. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT BEARS HAVE NON RETRACTABLE CLAWS. THE PICTURE YOU SAY SHOWS CLAWS ACTUALLY SHOWS THE BEAR DOESN'T HAVE CLAWS!!!! A bear's claws are readily visible. This bear has no claws! Take another look!!! This is the web picture you are describing...it has no claws or teeth!! http://www.wspa.org.uk/index.php?page=436 Take a look at the picture on this site. You can clearly see the non retractable claws and what appear to be toes, but these are highly cornified epidermis. They pick pine nuts from cones with these cornified digits. When you track bears, you can see the claws. They are long and dig into the earth. Take a look at the pictures at this website...the claws are long like fingers. ALL BEARS on the baiting pages obviously had their claws removed. Thanks for mentioning this, because I thought you knew what bear claws look like. You don't. http://www.americanbear.org/otherbears.htm I didn't notice ANY of the bears having teeth or claws. Give me the site. Some here are just pretending and they take both sides under different names. I can tell. At any rate, in the early days of bear baiting, the dogs were much larger than pits and much stronger. Yet, the bears always won and killed the dogs. In Pakistan, the common practice is to make the bear helpless, because the dog can't really injure the bear for the most part. The reason their mouths look chewed up is that they have had their teeth pulled. "Other Person," only an IDIOT claims that a wolf is indistinguishable from a dog. I can even tell and I am not in this field. Their jaws are different, their teeth are different (the gap used to break apart the jaws on a pit or any other dog are absent in a wolf). I can understand why you can't tell the difference. You didn't post the site.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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Answer by other person, "man, the more i research the more i find out you people are straight out pathological liers. a wolf trots at 5 mph but can attain SHORT burst of up to 35 mph." Hey loser, cite your sources...tell us all about wolf predation. The fact is that they kill healthy moose and farm animals. So, cite your sources! As for you "alpha" wolf theory, you are again ... a loser!! The pack generally consists of the alpha male (dad) the alpha female (mother) and the kids. This has been posted numerous times. You are a loser because you don't even read the threads! If you had, you would not have humiliated yourself with this stupid theory. HA-HA! Hey loser, how are you doing? We've been through this. Basically, much is not known about the wolf....they can only measure his speed by the animal he chases. The 35mph rate is taken from previously known speeds...however, the group of 20 or so scientist that consist of the discovery team clocked the wolf chasing pronghorns....that was 55mph. I know that you know little or nothing about animals ... but they used to believe cheetahs could only run about 40mph. That's as fast as they were clocked. So, some of this information you find is very old. Other information is taken from published sources, and that makes it older. The discovery team actually measured the speed and is original. Now, don't you feel a little humiliated when you make such stupid mistakes? Even if you don't know about animals, common sense should tell you this!!! Take a look, dude! http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/animalfaceoff/challenge/challenge6.html

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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Yea, Firedragon is right about the speed. In fact "other person" the site you referenced are people that are not scientists and don't do original research...they are just people that have an interest in wild life. See for yourself (also, the site has information that is 5 to ten years old) One is just a "rancher" with an interest in bears...he has no academic qualifications. Another has no credentials at all for wolves, she handles "tigers." "At this time we are currently in the process of filing for our non-profit status 501(c), and we are hoping to have it established by the beginning of next year." "Wolves-N-Wildlife, Inc. was organized by a group with a variety of different animal backgrounds, including educational facilities, movie facilities, and rescue facilities. But we all have one thing in common, love for the animals and a desire to get the word out. Our primary focus is to educate the public with our programs. Our staff is totally dedicated to the animals and their well being. We commit all or our time and effort to the happiness of our animals."http://www.wolvesnwildlife.com

Answer by Bev
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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Answer by other person, "www.wolvesnwildlife.com/wolffacts.htm man, the more i research the more i find out you people are straight out pathological liers. a wolf trots at 5 mph but can attain SHORT burst of up to 35 mph.i have found nothing credible that says any faster." Yes, you would think he would be more intelligent than this. He is using a citation from an "organization" that hasn't even gotten its tax status yet, and the people are just amateurs .. they probably started this organization as a tax break and to promote their business. The people on discovery were all scientists and experts in their fields from universities and research institutes. They did research themselves, they didn't just get it off the net. You will also find that when someone makes a mistake and publishes it on the net, it is copied and used elsewhere.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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Answer by other person "lets say for one second,they really did clock that wolf at 55 mph.well the strongest man can lift X amount of weight, does that mean we all can?" OK. That's a GREAT question. It also brings up an important aspect of genetics. Animals are very different because their environment means they must survive. The difference between a punk and the toughest man that ever lived is great. The difference between an average wolf and the best of wolves is not so great...what is called standard deviation of fit. Sometimes, you see a weak person, or maybe someone that needs help. In the animal world, he would be food for others. He probably would not get past infancy. That's why the dog came to man. It was surrounded by animals much stronger and fiercer. It could not exist in the wild. EVen deviant behavior is not tolerated among most carnivors...for example, homosexual wolves are attacked and killed by other wolves. Same with lions. It might not be the behavior, it might be that they are ... well, your only purpose is to reproduce. Biologically that's it. You are useless otherwise, biologically. So, often animals that are genetically stressed don't have offspring. Others sense it. In humans, we sense it. It's hard for someone without legs to get a mate. If they have something physically wrong, it's interpreted as genetic in instinct. So, people with personality problems, ugly people ... end up on the bottom of the dating chain. Fat people. People that are too skinny. But humans are different from animals and they are not so competitive. Something else motivates us and it's not just natural selection. The very weak wolf was not accepted among other wolves and became a dog. So, if some wolves can run this fast, many can. You rarely run into a "super" carnivore. THE BEAST OF GEVAUDAN is a good example. It's not know very well outside of France, but it is a major story in France. It was examined by the scientists of the day .... I have seen drawings of its jaws, immense and powerful. It killed five or seven people a week and sometimes, just sucked their blood. It had an alpha female too. It was so fast, they could not shoot it and imagined it to be bullet proof. The brotherhood of the wold is about this event and has the political side perfect. They had the carcass of a mutated wolf..maybe it was a dire wolf. It took strides of thirty feet when running. That would give it a speed of maybe 65 mph. People did attack it with forks and guns and chased it from it's victims. It wouldn't eat dead animals, so killing dogs and baiting them with poison didn't work. It was estimated to be about 15-18 feet with tail, but the tail was like a martin and it could knock people down. Not like the wolf, but the bite was! The killing did stop after shooting the mutated wolf. Killing that literally nearly caused a revolution because people were afraid to go out and the economy fell. The province was starving. There are super carnivores. That's when they call me. But most are just competitive. Battles end in death and it could go either way. Bears fight bears ...it's incredible. Their strength is amazing and they can rip the guts out of a moose with one swipe or even rip the head off a moose...literally, with one swipe. I see where they have turned over large boulders that a man can't move and moved large logs ... you can see the skid marks. Their breath is slow, maybe once in ten seconds when you hear them sleep. If they know you are there, it becomes rapid and the sound is distinct. Anyway, to answer your question...yes, a 55mph wolf will have many brothers. They have measure them now chasing pronghorn (the pronghorn is the best runner. Only the cheetah is faster, but the pronghorn can run forever. I have seen them from the air and it's incredible. Some ran past one wolf pack and was chased by another. They just kept going. It's now legal to hunt wolves from the air in Alaska, which shows the great concern. Whenever they make aerial hunting legal, there is a great problem because this shows no respect for the animal. Good thought. You were on the LOGICAL path here, but not knowing about natural selection...dogs have great variance in strength and purpose because they don't have competition. Not at home and not in the "pit" That's why some champions ... Snowball for example ... were so untouchable by others in their WEIGHT.

Answer by macker
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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big dog...i agree that the pit and tosa are incredible dogs and are the best at what they do ....in general. But like i'vewritten so many times before, when i was in brazil i saw many dog fights and the pits and tosas didn't always win. I don't want to sound like im just endorsing the dogo cause i have one, but i saw one completely destroy anyhting that was in the pit. while i was in brazil i saw a dogo called tiro de suerte rip open a pit in under 10 minutes beat a presa the following month. the last time i saw that dog fight some guy brought a cane corso that had beaten a presa a couple of weeks prior. the dogo also won that match in under 5 minutes. After the match the owner said that he trained his dogo during hunts. i also saw a tosa get beat by an american bulldog. I've even seen mixed dogs beat pits. in south america people dont really act like in japan in which they'll use a dog mostly cause of pride they use what works. Like i said, tosas and pits are generally the best at what they do BUT there are always exceptions. Now my dogo hunts and duke has alot of scars from boar tusks and puma claws and i KNOW he could probably give any dog a run its money but i would never ever willingly fight my dog. i'veseen many breeds go at it and i can gurantee you that tosas and pits are by no means unbeatable.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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I know of a 11 month old pit bull that killed a prize 2000 lb. bull.the bull died from blood loss,but die he did.I have posted the details on here long ago.This really did happen it was tragic for the dog,as he was shot.[by his owner]I SOLD THE PUP AT 6WEEKS OLD TO A FARMER THAT HAD TRIED TO BUY MY BIG MALE FROM ME MANY TIMES.I quit raising these dogs after that,as i did not like these people getting them that had NO IDEA HOW TO HANDLE THEM.THESE FIGHTING PIT BULLS ARE MUCH MORE THAN PEOPLE THINK.THEY JUST ARE NOT USED TO DOGS THAT WILL FIGHT A BULL.OR WILL NOT QUIT FIGHTING THE GERMAN SHEPHERD THAT STARTS IT WITH THEM.I have seen these dogs fight nests of yellow jackets and not back down.Kill snakes without getting bit.Go after horses that try to run after them.They have an unworldly love of battle.they cannot help it one bit.Its just flat been bred into them for years.So you can discount the pit on here all you want.but none can do it in person.[put up or shut up-throw your wolf,or other breed of dog in the fight ring,with the top ranked pit ace in the AREA!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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I have challenged Firelier on this about 3 times before he never lists his sources. If you go to the site that he lists you'll find that it is the opinion of some college students. They didn't clock anything nor did they measure the animal and the stride between steps. This wouldn't give a perfect speed however it would be closer than a child's guess. Also these people have not been trained like police officers are in "Speed Ratings From Stationary Platform" 2 week course. Oh yea, check out how fast the prong horn runs,it's not 55mph. A wolf CAN NOT catch one (Healthy one) in a dead run. If a wolf could run 55mph he would certainly be able to close the gap and catch it almost every time. AS ALWAYS WITH FIRECRAP IF YOU GO TO HIS "LINK" YOU'LL FIND THAT THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT AT ALL ABOUT THE DISCUSSION HERE. HE IS JUST BETTING YOU WILL TAKE HIS WORD FOR IT, DON'T. EVERY TIME I'VE CHALLENGED HIS CRAP HE JUST COMES BACK WITH INSULTS AND CRAP. NEVER ANY FACTS. LOOK BACK THROUGH THE POSTS. THAT ALL HE KNOWS

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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Hey, Snoop, you said, "Well, Bev I know you're lying, it says35-45mph on most of the websites. So you go to one website that says they can only reach speeds of 35mph." Just a note from FD. Dude, listen...let's not bull poop here. The site was cited. The people that have actually MEASURED this speed come from many universities and are all specialists. This has already been posted. Give me the number to the biologist. I don't believe he contradicted this ... it's not science. We learn constantly and new things come up. There is a lot of false information on the Internet, as you should have learned. In the past, wolves were not actually studied much in the wild. There are limits to what is studied. The limits of a wolve is something that was neglected, and again, scientists estimated from the game chased. But calling someone a liar when they cite a reputable source in strange. The source is unlikely to be lying and they would not make this charge and risk losing grants and their reputation. This has to be verified by other scientists and was...by members of this team. You might not know this, being a "housewife" but most on even the undergrad level are aware of this. Many people are stupid or lazy. Take for instance Moore's F 9/11. He gives the impression in the movie that Bush allowed the Saudi family to fly around when flights were banned. However, this hurt his credibility so much that he feared being taken out of the documentary class. On his WEBPAGE he admists that CLARK and not Bush approved the flights AFTER the ban had been lifted!! THAT'S RIGHT. THERE WAS NO BAN ON FLIGHTS AND THEY FAMILY WAS CHECKED OUT MORE THAN THE AVERAGE PERSON!!!! He gave us the impression the war in Afghanistan was fought for a pipeline, but in reality, the pipeline idea had been abandoned a couple years before and ... of course has not been built. Yet, you read him cited in HUNDREDS of Internet sites, even today ... MORE THAN TEN DAYS after he made the retraction on his website. Word has not gotten around among the fools. So here, you have people that don't even go to zoos. As a child, I was amazed at the size of claws on bears. Even from a distance, they were frightening. But in the wild, they really put the whup on me. Now, a REAL biologist would ask where you got your information. He has probably seen the effects of a wolf, knows the anatomy and about genetics. The chances of ANY wildlife biologist for Wildlife and Fisheries researching the speed of a wolf is not too good. So he would be interested in learning more. If the site was some dude with BO and no credentials, maybe it is not worth checking. BUT, since many prestigious universities are represented here, it would be good to know. So, I have many numbers for the various divisions of Wildlife ... what is his number? I would like to speak with him and give him a "heads up" For you guys that can't tell a toothless and clawless bear!!! Wow. Go to a zoo, dudes! You are missing out ... go to some parks or national forrests. Oh, that one website is related to some of the few studies that are measuring limits of predators. Bite force, speed, and so on. If you are a biologist, you can't just look at something. You have to have money to work. I think you will find that the "Yellowstone" biologist has never even measured the speed of a wolf. The 35 mph is way of of line. Wolves can run faster than any dog, easily.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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Haha! You obviously have an issue with simple reading Read the posts. This has been cited. Answer by other person "second- a t.v. show called face off for a source? ooooo.kaaaaay.try real scientific sources, not ones built around entertainment,like you guys." These are some of the scientists from the "Discovery Page" Haha! Do you see a difference between them and someone that doesn't even have a degree as many of the people on these sites that you have cited? It's not just an "editor's opinion" They are a group of experts that specialize in various aspects of animals. Here are SOME of them: Dave Salmoni Dave is a big-cat trainer and zoologist, but his expertise extends beyond the realm of lions and tigers to include a variety of wild animals. He has worked with wildlife in Africa, and his research has encouraged breeding programs for endangered species in zoos around the world. He specializes in returning captive-bred animals to the wild, teaching them hunting and survival skills. He has appeared in many television programs as an authority on big cats, including Discovery's Living With Tigers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Adam Britton Adam first became fascinated by crocodilians when he was about 5 years old. After gaining his Ph.D. in zoology in Britain, he moved to Australia to pursue his dream of working with crocodiles. Adam is currently a senior researcher with Wildlife Management International, based in Darwin, in the Northern Territory of Australia. His research has focused on crocodilian biology, behavior, ecology and conservation management, as well as bioacoustics and the sensory capabilities of crocodiles. He has consulted on numerous television documentaries and is the author of crocodilian.com, a comprehensive online guide to crocodiles and alligators. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Huber Dan is a biologist and Ph.D. candidate working at the University of South Florida's Ichthyology and Functional Morphology Laboratory. His doctoral research focuses on the biomechanics of shark feeding. In particular, Dan's research looks at the generation of bite force by the cranial musculature of sharks. Using custom-designed single-point load cells, he and his colleagues have recorded the first high-precision bite force measurements ever obtained from sharks. Dan's other research has focused on the bite force of the spiny dogfish, the structural design of the electric ray's jaws and the biomechanics of fish locomotion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Samantha Stephens Sam is a zoologist who specializes in wild animals. A zookeeper for nine years, mostly working with African carnivores and hoof stock, she is currently with the Melbourne Zoo in Australia. Sam has an intimate knowledge of lion behavior, acquired while working with groups of the big cats during her zoo career, and several periods of volunteer work with captive wildlife in Asia and Africa. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Frank Mendel Frank is associate professor of pathology and anatomical sciences at the State University of New York, Buffalo. He and his robotics and engineering colleagues in the university's Smilodon Research Project are studying extinct animals such as the saber-toothed tiger by analyzing the physical characteristics and behavior of their living relatives. Frank brings an unrivalled knowledge of big-cat anatomy to the test lab. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Woodward Scott is the director of engineering design services at the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences at the State University of New York, Buffalo. He holds a master's degree in mechanical and aerospace engineering. His area of interest is the use of computers and instrumentation for dynamic measurement, making him an ideal measurement expert for the test lab. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Ellen Rogers Ellen has extensive experience in international conservation and wildlife veterinary medicine, including front-line experience in Uganda and South Africa. In 1993 she conducted field research on the chimpanzees of Uganda's Kibale National Park. She returned to Uganda in 1994 to set up a parasitology lab at Entebbe Zoo and train zoo staff to diagnose and treat infected chimpanzees. Ellen is a graduate of Tufts University and remains affiliated with the university's international wildlife veterinary medicine program. In 1997 she received an African Wildlife Medicine and Conservation Fellowship, which involved five months of practical training in African animal translocation and conservation in South Africa, including practical field experience with renowned South African wildlife veterinarian Cobus Raath. She has subsequently been involved with wildlife veterinary medicine courses in South Africa and Uganda. Prior to entering Tufts, Ellen worked in research in human medicine at the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, Mass. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peggy Callahan A biologist and wolf expert, Peggy graduated from Carleton College in Minnesota with a degree in biology and a passion for native North American wildlife. She has participated in a variety of studies involving black bears, white-tailed deer, red fox and wolves. When federal funding ceased in 1991, she decided to create a nonprofit education and research foundation, the Wildlife Science Center, near Minneapolis. After three years of intensive building and program planning, she opened the doors to the public and is now the center's executive director. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Wiersma Jonathan holds degrees in biomedical physics and a master's degree in biology from Laurentian University in Canada. His in-depth analysis of the hunting strategies, anatomy, morphology and behavior of North American carnivores has generated a mathematical equation that can be used to predict the bite forces of many different animals. Jonathan brings his expertise to Animal Face-Off to calculate the power of the various weapons employed by wild animals. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Watson Jeff has been raising bears for 16 years. A native of Indiana, he is a trainer, daily caregiver and friend to his five bears. His extensive hands-on experience has given him a unique understanding of these dangerous animals. His 1,200-pound Kodiak grizzly named Brody is seen throughout the world on a line of work clothing. Jeff travels around the United States to teach wilderness enthusiasts how to keep themselves safe in bear country, with the objective of saving the lives of both people and wild bears. His knowledge is not confined to grizzlies; he is also an expert on other species, including black bears and polar bears. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Tessler Dave is a biologist living and working in Alaska. He holds degrees in wildlife biology and ecology. Until recently, Dave was a researcher with the Pacific Walrus Research Program at the U.S Geologic Survey, where he spent years capturing, handling and tagging Pacific walruses in an effort to understand their migration patterns, diving behavior, population structure and importance as a subsistence food source. His current research in the Non-Game Program at the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is centered on the conservation of Alaska's biodiversity, preserving rare and threatened species and habitats, and ensuring that common species remain common. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Tara S. Stoinski Tara holds graduate degrees from Oxford University and the Georgia Institute of Technology. She is employed by both Zoo Atlanta and the Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund International and has adjunct positions in the psychology departments at Georgia Tech and Emory University. Her main research interest is the social behavior of group-living primate species. Currently, she is the primary investigator on several studies of social behavior in male gorillas. The research is conducted both in captivity and in the wild. Tara is active within the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) and primatological communities. She is vice chair of the Gorilla Behavioral Advisory Group for AZA, research coordinator for the AZA Ape Taxon Advisory Group and a scientific adviser to the AZA's Gorilla Species Survival Plan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Steve O'Shea A zoologist, Steve is a senior research fellow at the Auckland University of Technology. He is an authority on New Zealand and Southern Ocean Cephalopoda � the highest class of mollusks, which have a distinct head with a beak and muscular tentacles around the mouth. This group includes octopus and squid. A Discovery Quest scientist, Steve has conducted numerous surveys on the effects of human impact on the marine environment, particularly deep-sea commercial bottom trawling and coastal dredging activities. Among his honors is a Visiting Scholar Award from the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago. He has served as visiting curator at the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, Miami, Fla.; Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History, Santa Barbara, Calif.; American Museum of Natural History, New York, N.Y.; South African Museum, Cape Town, South Africa; Museum of Victoria, Melbourne, Australia; Australian Museum, Sydney, Australia; National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C.; National Science Museum, Taichung, Taiwan; Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago, Ill.; and Mote Marine Laboratory, Sarasota, Fla. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Scott Baker Scott is an associate professor in the School of Biological Sciences at the University of Auckland, New Zealand, and earned his Ph.D. in zoology at the University of Hawaii. Since 1985, he has held research and teaching positions with the Smithsonian Institution, the Laboratory of Genomic Diversity at the United States National Cancer Institute, Victoria University, Wellington, and the University of Hawaii, as well as his present position at the University of Auckland. He has been involved in the study of whales and dolphins for nearly 30 years. He is also a New Zealand delegate to the Scientific Committee of the International Whaling Commission, a member of the Cetacean Specialist Group of IUCN - the World Conservation Union, a member of the Society for Marine Mammal Sciences, and associate editor of the journal of Marine Mammal Science and the Journal of Heredity. http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/animalfaceoff/lab/lab.html

Answer by Bev
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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Part of my post was left out Snoopy! There's some editing, but I kept a copy! It should have said: Answer by other person, "www.wolvesnwildlife.com/wolffacts.htm man, the more i research the more i find out you people are straight out pathological liers. a wolf trots at 5 mph but can attain SHORT burst of up to 35 mph.i have found nothing credible that says any faster." Yes, you would think he would be more intelligent than this. He is using a citation from an "organization" that hasn't even gotten its tax status yet, and the people are just amateurs .. they probably started this organization as a tax break and to promote their business. The people on discovery were all scientists and experts in their fields from universities and research institutes. They did research themselves, they didn't just get it off the net. You will also find that when someone makes a mistake and publishes it on the net, it is copied and used elsewhere.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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The greyhound can run 45mph.So firedragons says the wolf is faster than any dog.That is subject to everything I find being wrong.The greyhound is the speed merchant of the canine world.So I think that some people have a need to push the wolf of as being more at anything,than our specialized breeds,that have been developed from them.That makes no sense to me,as its saying mans work with these dogs over 100's of years,has gone backward instead of forward.all breeds should be an improvement in their areas,that man has strived for.After all the bloodhound has a better sense of smell than the wolf.Or will you wolf people argue that to be false?[that is one example that I could come up with that I thought NO ONE COULD ARGUE WITH,WOULDN'TCOUNT ON IT,WE WILL SEE]

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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I'm just curious, is it possible for someone on here to gain access to edit these post? I have also noticed that a couple hours after I type my post not only does some of my post finally show up, but people have already responded to it. how does theres get up so quickly?by the time some of mine show up, your'e already on a different part of the argument.by the way BIGDOG- i decided its best not to put an e-mail up because i would have no way of knowing if it was you or not e-mailing me.thank you though.FIREDRAGONS- its nice to see your in a good mood today.thank you for the compliment.i would much rather have a mature argument then all these childish insults we've been throwing around. I will agree to keep things descent from now on if you do to,no matter how much we disagree.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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SNOOPY, I understand that allot of the starvations are puppies, but it all falls back on to the full grown wolves for feeding those puppies.I don't know the situations out west,but in the north woods there is an over abundance of deer and small game. The only way a carnivore could starve around here is if they failed to catch/kill something.In certain zones in wisconsin they are trying to eradicate all the deer to stop the spread of c.w.d. despite all the permits,farmers with permission, and helicopters with snipers they can't seem to put a dent in them, and thats all in the southern part of the state where wildlife is no where near as dense as it is in the north woods.I am sorry for being so rude,but i have seen no evidence that a wolf could take a pitbull.in fact the longer this goes on the more i learn wolves have a hell of a struggle just to survive.Look, starvation,disputes,and injuries from other animals accounts for the majority of all wolf deaths, does that honestly sound like an animal that reigns king over other animals?Maybe I'm missing something but that sounds like an animal that has difficulty staying alive. Not to mention 99% of them need to be in a pack just to survive. I know they are capable of great feats, but to a game bred pitbull great feats are an absolute necessity.In a sense a pit is less forgiving then the woods. weaker wolves can survive thanks to the pack.weak pitbulls can not survive in the pit and do not pass there genes down.It truly is survival of the fittest just like in the woods but with one difference, the pitbulls chance of survival depends solely on himself and his ability to tolerate injuries and destroy his opponent.Many of the dogs do not die in the pit, but do hours if not days later.this is not because the other pit didn't unleash hell on him,he did,it's because the pitbull responds differently to being injured and initially survives wounds that would of been fatal right away to other animals because they give in.I know this sounds incredible, but it's true.Even some vets familiar with pits will tell you the pitbull has one of the strongest immune systems and has a higher survival rate then other breeds with the same illness.pitbulls just do not give in to death that easy. those bear baiters could of just as easily pitted other breeds or wild animals such as the wolf against the bears for there entertainment but they didn't,they wanted the a.p.b.t. for a very good reason.as unbelievable as this may all sound to you,I can't even do the pitbull justice, you just don't know until you see for yourself.I hope this makes some sense to you.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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picking at random other advantages of owning a PIT BULL,let us consider the vet bill.these dogs are downright bullet proof.or as a old friend used to say you couldn'tkill one with a hammer,what he meant of course,was that individuals of this breed are hard to kill-either by disease or physical injury!a selective breeding process extending over hundreds of years has produced an exceptionally hardy and tough animal.the famous veterinarian LEON WHITNEY has made note of the fact that this breed crossed with a distemper-prone breed[the bloodhound]produced progeny that were highly immune to the disease.JAMES THURBER,the famous writer and humorist,reminisced about his boyhood dog,a pit bull,and how the family became convinced that he was indestructible after he survived a series of accidents that would have been fatal to any other breed. from -THIS IS THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER. this is right along the line of what-other person-is saying.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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well yeah no doubt there are lots of idiots in the world.some have kids and shouldn't some have guns and shouldn't.some have DOGS and any other living pet, and shouldn't.some drive cars and shouldn't.we cannot keep these people from doing things they should not do.they just keep on until something bad happens and then they pay the price.i DO NOT raise pit bull pups and sale them anymore because,as a rule they ARE mishandled.the people tie them up and ignore them,or think they can turn them loose to roam.or try to make them killers.so i am a dog lover and will not put up with that.i like all breeds of dogs and always have.pits are good dogs if you understand them and put forth effort to ensure they cause no trouble.many people like the breed that are not ''trash''.just most people do not need them!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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JERRY PITS are not bred to fight a dog to the death. If you take the figher gazettes, SHOW ME WHERE a pit was killed. This is the people with the SPCA. They exaggerate the cruelty so that numb heads will respond. Do you think citizens would have cared enough to outlaw fighting if they dogs were just bitten a little? You will never see this with a wolf!! A pit bull cannot even beat a large french poodle!! A woman walking her pit was attacked by an ass kicking large French poodle that wailed on the pit and then turned on the woman!!! www.realgsd.info/GSDinfo/News/dogfight.htm Another disgusting trait of pit owners ... they constantly stress their dog will die rather than quit or they speak of how no dog can match a pit ...yet SINGLE dogs multiple pits for long periods without losing or being seriously harmed!! "Police Shoot Pit Bull After It Attacks Other Dog Jun 14, 2004 4:10 pm US/Mountain AURORA, Colo. (News 4) Police in Aurora shot a pit bull on Monday morning after it turned on an officer following an attacked on a neighboring dog, News 4 reports. The incident happened Monday morning in the neighborhood of 23rd and Macon when Simon Davis' three pit bulls allegedly attacked Rocky, a Shepherd-Collie mix that was chained to its front porch. Police arrived at Davis' house, and were confronted by the dogs on their return." http://news4colorado.com/crimeaccidentreport/local_story_166144809.html PRONG HORN�s run fast!!!! PRONG HORNS RUN LIKE ... FAST!!! 65MPH Faultline, California's Environmental Magazine "Even as infants, pronghorns display one of the best-known attributes of their kind: speed. A two-day-old fawn can outrun a horse. Adults have been clocked at 65 m.p.h., and can sustain a 35 m.p.h. cruising speed over a distance of four miles. "What but the wolf's tooth whittled so fine/ The fleet limbs of the antelope?" " http://www.faultline.org/place/2001/11/antilocapra1.html

Answer by big DOG
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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the people said the wolfs psi was 500lbs. the MACHINE WAS SET AT 500LBS -IT CRUSHED THE COCONUT.THE MT.LION WAS 300 LBS IT CRUSHED THE COCONUT. NOW KNOWING AS I DO THAT SOME PIT BULLS BITE MUCH HARDER THAN OTHER PIT BULLS,AND ARE KNOWN AS HARD BITERS,THEY CAN KILL OTHER DOGS WITH THE FIRST HOLD THEY TAKE!THIS IS A FACT.I DO THINK THAT WOMAN THAT MADE THAT STATEMENT,TO BE AWARE OF ALL THE FACTS OF PIT BULLS.IN FACT I FOUND HER AS A WHOLE TO BE RATHER SILLY ABOUT THE PROCESS.THE BITE PSI WAS A ESTIMATE.SHE SCREAmed like a child when the melons and coconuts broke.when the computer ''fought'' the mt. lion and wolf the mt. lion won.the whole deal is rather a big show to me.i don't think you can prove these things like this.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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right firedragon a large poodlE can whip ANY PIT BULL.DO YOU REALLY KNOW HOW STUPID THAT SOUNDS?EVEN IF A LARGE POODLE DID BEAT A SINGLE PIT BULL,HOW CAN YOU MAKE THE STATEMENT''A PIT BULL CANNOT BEAT A LARGE FRENCH POODLE''?THAT MEANS NO PIT BULL COULD.YOU KNOW THAT THERE IS INFERIOR DOGS OF ALL BREEDS.YOU KNOW THE BEST PITS COULD TEAR THAT POODLE APART.GET REAL.I KNOW THAT A PIT CAN KILL OTHER DOGS.I DO NOT DOG FIGHT BUT I KNOW THOSE WHO DO.AND THERE HAS BEEN MANY,MANY DOGS DIE IN THE PIT.THE REASON THEY DO NOT IS BECAUSE THE LOSER DOGS OWNER WILL GIVE THE MATCH UP,RATHER THAN TO SEE HIS DOG DIE.SOME WILL NOT BECAUSE OF THE MONEY AND LACK OF RESPECT FOR THEIR DOGS.THE MATCH WILL GO ON TILL THE DOG IS DEAD.ITS UP TO THE OWNERS.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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The fact is that ANYONE that really knows about fighting dogs knows that pits do well with dogs their size. They don't have a lot of speed. I can outrun one. But they have pretty good strength for their weight; however, there are much more powerful dogs that are used to fight bigger animals. I would not like to be attacked by a 300 pound mastiff. Pits get whipped by collies...sometimes just a household pet. They really get kicked by bigger dogs. But what difference does it make? That's not what the dog is for...the dog should be a companion for some. I don't think it would be a good work dog and should not be around children....but they aren't bad, just a little unpredictable. By the way, GREYHOUNDS race and their speed is well known and documented. They run faster than horses. But many of the wild animals had never been tested; however, there is much research now into speed.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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Snoopy, you did in fact say that a wolf could beat a bear, here I'll go get your statement. Answer by snoopy Submitted on 6/30/2004 Rating: Not yet rated "Wolves may even attack, and have been known to kill, a grizzly bear that gets too close to the den. Wolves and grizzly bears have been seen fighting over" blah blah blah you and firelier are one and the same. see something on TV it must be true. Ignorance is bliss. Then when the foolishness of what you've said comes out, then you didn't say that. Remember T.V. also had studiesthat said black people were actually not real humans. ABC sept 11 1952. And backed it up with a "study". Now we all know the foolishness of that statement.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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SO FIRELIER, FIRESNOOPY, FIRENEAL, AND HOWEVER MANY OF THERE THAT YOU ARE NOW, YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT THE 80LBS. WOLF CAN DO WHAT A CROC CAN NOT. YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT A WOLF HAS A BITE OF AT LEAST 6500PSI. FOOLS SO IF YOU MEASURE THE STRIDE OF A CHEETAH AND THAT OF A GREY HOUND THEY ARE BOTH ABOUT 7 FEET LONGER THAN THAT OF A WOLF RUNNING. THIS DEFIES SIMPLE PHYSICS AND THE CLAIM THAT THEY (WOLVES CAN RUN 55mph. NO PROOF OF A SINGLE BODY OF SOMEONE KILLED. NO PROOF OF A SINGLE "CRUSHED" FEMUR. NO PROOF OF A SINGLE VIDEO OF A 55mph wolf. BUMMER DUDES, YOU'VE FOUND OUT!!!!!!!!!! Proof, Proof, Proof. You have published nothing firelier, maybe a fictional child's book like "little red riding hood". Proof where are the picture and bodies. NO BODY IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. In this day and age NO PICTURE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! FIREDRAGON THERE IS AN INCREDIBLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "HEARSAY, SECONDHAND INFO." AND THE TRUTH. NOBODY HAS ANSWERED MY BEAR STATEMENTS EITHER, YOU TWO HAVE STAYED AWAY FROM MOST OF WHAT I'VE SAID BECAUSE I LIVE WITH THESE ANIMALS. YOU LIVE WHERE THEY DON'T, WELL MAYBE A LITTLE BLACK BEAR ONCE IN A WHILE, UNFORTUNATELY PEOPLE LIKE SNOOPY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE BROWN BEAR UP HEAR WOULD EAT THAT 300LBS SNACK!! 3 TRIALS WITH A MECHANICAL PRESS WHAT PSI DID THE FEMUR OF A 9 YEAR OLD AND 2 FROM A 8 YEAR OLD FEMUR FAIL AT? 1. 8 YEAR OLD LEFT FEMUR FAILURE @ 6673 PSI 2 8 YEAR OLD RIGHT FEMUR FAILURE @ 6520 PSI 3 9 YEAR OLD SIDE UNKNOWN FAILURE @ 6129 PSI I guess nobody wants to talk about this a$$holes You see that is the problem with these people, they believe everything they hear or see someone say on TV. There is a reason that we call that "HEARSAY" NO PROOF. I hate to be the one that breaks the news to you firelier and snoopy. Just because someone with a degree says something doesn't mean they're telling the truth, or that they know what the hell they're talking about. You see I have a masters too and I am just as capable of lying as they are. THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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Jerry, I think you are full of hot air. I go to Alaska once or twice a year. If I thought you were real, I would go there and turn you into the police. You are just a punk, but if you fight dogs, you are a criminal. I don't think any of you are really dog fighters or you wouldn't sound so stupid. First of all...everyone knows that weight is important. Also, the money isn't in the winning, it's in the bets ... finally, dogs RARELY die in pit fights!!! Pit owners and wanna owners are so stupid. This guy has dogs that....mysteriously fight his dogs and these dogs are rare, but they are there when his dogs get lose. I don't think he ever has a dog!! Look at this: Answer by Bull Dawg Listen up punks, I have owned pit bulls all my life. They have jumped the fence a few times to attack other dogs. They have literally almost killed Akita's, Rott's, and Am Bulldogs. Lucky for those Stupid ass dogs I was there to save their pathetic lives. Hands down the Pit bull is the Supreme Species. The owner of the 2 Akita,s that were Chewed up by my Pit bull is about to sue my ass. Call him up and he'll let you know that pit bulls are dominant over any thing. Come on man, a long time ago in England they were bred to take down Bears and Bulls. You can't mess with that kind of stamina and power.Peace http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-8446.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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It's more important to be comparative Snoopy. In other words, the bite force can vary ...on discovery, they used deflection grids. It's very different and gives much lower values, but the values are ... comparative. It's like the Rockwell hardness scale. The diamond is 10 and the ruby is 9, but the difference between them is great...the difference between 1 and 2 is small. You must go by relative hardness. You can compare them....but if you just say a diamond is ten and you don't have the other compounds to compare, it means nothing. Get it? So, if you take the two, they will each have other animals measured in the same way. So, saying 1500 pounds doesn't mean much, but compared to the dog. The number for a wolf should be twice or more that of a dog in the same study.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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Oh, I'm so proud of you guys for watching this information about wolves. The woman was a wolf expert, you can look this up on dicovery.com. She was also a vet. You're right, some pits bite harder than others. But none can match the wolf. You're talking about thousands of years vs millions of years. If you look at the skulls you will see. why would they match a wolf against a cougar and not a pit bull? Because the outcome is so obvious. You really must be retarded. Wolves have bigger teeth, harder bite, longer teeth. You know some wolves have longer teeth than others. I feel that it is a waste of my time writing on this site. You pit bull lovers think a pit would stand tall against an alpha male wolf in the wild. you are so stupid. I can't find one single person that would agree with you. And I have looked. I have asked many people. They all think you are stupid. Including my cousin the zoologist. Your posts generally make me laugh because you can't spell and don't know what you're talking about. NOW SHUT UP WITH YOUR CRAP! Please do everyone a favor. you idiots.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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you are full of loads of crap,firedrag.pitbull are large dogs -where it counts their hearts,heads and jaws.large dogs of other breeds do not win against pits that weigh 50-70 lbs,mastiffs do not weigh 300lbs.,180 is common and the tosoes that weigh more than 120 are not as good of fighters as the smaller.some pit bull have been good enough to be open to any other pit bull at any weight.you see i know these things even though you think everyone is stupid,but yourself.their was a guy long ago that thought his 170 lb. mastiff could take a pit.he talked much as you do.a little 70 pound pit ace had his big dog whipped in 5 min.the dog weighed 100 more pounds and couldn'tdo a thing with the pit.as far as you out running a pit bull, i will bet you any amount that i have a pit that will beat you very badly.the type bulldog you could out run would be the English bull.the pit bull dog can run as fast as most dogs.i know you know very little of pits to say something,like that.this pit i have will beat you running so bad, you will learn a lesson.will put 5000 dollars on the dog.and thats just because i do not have more cash to bet right now.let me know.lol.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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I DO NOT THINK FIREDRAGON KNOWS WHAT A PIT BULL IS.IN ONE POST HE SAYS THEY ARE NO MORE THAN 16-1/4'' HIGH.I KNOW THEY ARE UP TO 22''.NOW HE SAYS HE CAN OUT RACE ONE.HE COULD KILL ONE BAREHANDED,NOW OUT RUN ONE.THAT IS THE CRAZIEST YET!PITS are NOT SLOW RUNNING DOGS.IN FACT THEY ARE PRETTY DAMN QUICK.A PERSON WILL NOT OUT RUN ONE.AND YOU WOULD NOT KILL A 75LB. ONE BAREHANDED.SNOOPY KISS MY ASS,YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A WOLF CAN DO,AGAINST A PIT.THAT SHOW WAS A SHOW THATS ALL.ALL ANIMALS ARE WILD IN-ANIMAL FACE OFF-MAYBE THEY DO NOT WANT TO PROMOTE DOG FIGHTING.THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE SEEN WOLF VS.PIT BULL DOGS SAY THE PIT WINS.I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY DIFFERENT.GO TO BEST FIGHT DOG-READ THOUGH ALL OF THAT SITES POSTS.MANY SAY THEY HAVE SEEN THESE MATCHES.READ THEM!AS TO PEOPLE SPELLING I CAN FIND MISUSED AND MISSPELLED WORDS IN MOST OF THESE POSTS.SOMETIMES IF ITS EARLY IN THE MORNING,I WILL MAKE MISTAKES.SO WHAT?I GUESS YOU ARE PERFECT.AS TO THE WOLF VS MT. LION-THE WOLF LOST -SO WHAT?THAT ANY DOG OR WOLF WOULD WAS NO SURPRISE TO ME.THE CAT HAS CLAWS,STRENGTH AND A MORE KILLING BITE.AS WELL AS SPEED.SO WITH MACKER SAYING A DOGO CAN KILL A JAGUAR ONE ON ONE,AND A JAG IS BIGGER THAN A MT.LION,BITES HARDER,THAT MEANS A DOGO WOULD KILL A WOLF EASY.OF COURSE I DO NOT THINK MACKER,IS TELLING THE TRUTH,AS I HAVE READ HIS POSTS ELSEWHERE,AND THIS STORY HAS CHANGED AS TIME GOES BY.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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Pete has some good advice for the stupids that believe the breeders ... breeders that rely on stupid people. "Never forget this. The winner of a match is the one who sends in the report and usually he's going to write it to make his dog look as good as possible. Then he can sell the dog for more money. You will have to do your "homework", meaning research who are the HONEST breeders, cause I guarantee you that the crooks are out there just waiting for a guy like you to call! If you want the best chance of getting a GAME one its best to buy a grown tested dog from someone who has been around a long time and has used the dog in his own breeding program." Every pound is important: "Hey Pete, how do you determine the best "pit" weight for your dog? signed, Clueless. I assume, since dog fighting is illegal (not to mention, politically incorrect) you are planning to pull your dog down just to get some pictures of him for your scrapbook, right? Well, in the good old days before cutting a couple of scrappers loose to see who'd come out on top would get a person the "death penalty", here is how it was done." FOR YOU STUPID WORTHLESS PUNKS THAT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HUNTING OR DOGS, EVEN THE PERVERTED DOG FIGHTERS KNOW NOT TO TURN DOGS ON WILD ANIMALS!!!!! "Dear Ol� Pete Sez, My name is Edward from Texas, and I have a question: I am thinking of going hog hunting with my dog and I am getting prepared. I have just about everything I need, Shotgun, dog, a 5" spike collar for my dog, but I thought about my dog, what if he gets cut open buy a boar. He is going to bleed to death. I have talked around to some people and they tell to look for a "Stitch Kit" to sew up a wounded dog. So now to the question finally. Where can I order or buy the so called "Stitch Kits" . Thank you for your time, Edward Gomez Thanks for your letter, Edward. Problem is, you are asking the wrong question! Yes, you should have a "stitch kit" or a surgical stapler (look in the animal mail order catalogs for these) but it is a lot better to keep your dog from getting ripped open by the hog in the first place! One reason is that a hog can cut a lot more than skin! He can disembowel your dog and stitching isn�t going to do him much good! What you need BEFORE you go hog hunting is to join United Hog-Dog Association of America! We�ll send you a membership card, a "legal advice" pamphlet (to help keep you and your dogs out of "legal trouble" around your neighborhood and in the town you live in) and some sources you can contact to order cut vests and cut collars, hog traps, staplers, virtually everything you need before you take to the field. As a member you can also call association officers, like T. Michael Riddle, on the phone for advice. Hog hunting is certainly not a sport you should tackle without being ready for all the repercussions! Your dog is worth $25 for a membership to help save his life, isn�t he? Well then, do him and yourself a favor and get started right with the right equipment and knowledge. Pete " YOU STUPID BASTARDS THAT RISK YOUR DOGS HEALTH .. GET A BOWIE AND KILL THE HOG YOURSELF. You are a coward and use a dog to be a man. Well, let the dog have your girl and you sleep on the mat. Join a real hunting club and get educated. None of you guys hunt or even go to the zoo. The dudes that didn't notice the toothless and clawless bears .. what is wrong with you? No common sense at all!!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/5/2004
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Oh, bigdog you are so lame. Wolves do fight and have been doing so for millions of years. You know, on the weekends I get plastered when my mom comes over to babysit on occasion. My friends an I look at all the pit bull people who think a pit could kill a wild wolf. We laugh and laugh. Then I look at them and say,"stay in school"! I was at my boyfriends uncles house tonight and his son is 15 and has been studying wolves for some project. I asked him what he thought about a pit bull killing a wild wolf. He then looked at me and laughed. A 15 YEAR OLD BOY KNOWS BETTER THAN YOU! I also suggest that you learn to spell better. A lot is two words not one. This would help people believe you more. -Serenity

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/5/2004
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i sited a non scientific site about the wolf speed,(because it was highest) and everyone picked it apart, but now snoopy goes to a 15 year old's school project.Have you people ever seen a pit fight a wolf?if not, a scientific community would laugh at you for being so one sided, judgmental, and laughing about something you know nothing about.and firedragons says, in a wolf fight one dies, ones lives..lol. what, wolves fight one on one now too? they must of started there own pits, i guess.you people sound very desperate to prove a point on a subject that you just can't grasp.it is very entertaining to watch you all grab on to anything that anyone says just to try and win an argument you know you lost when you found out most of your killer wolves starve to death, or are killed by other animals.TRUTH HURTS, DON'T IT?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/5/2004
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Diaper Dan, we are not talking about a machine. The discovery people took known characteristics of the wolf and put them in perspective. An aligator, for example, can bite so hard it breaks the pelvis of a zebra. That is incredible for several reasons. When an animal opens his mouth wide, it looses some of its strength. A wolf won't bit a coconut, but most of us have opened them. We know how tough they are... As for analyzing his jaw, bigDog...yea, you should do that AFTER he dies. The fact is that we know the wolf can bite harder than any dog, twice as hard. More than five times some dogs. We have posted injuries made by wolves and by dogs. Dogs just leave soft tissue damage, wolves break bones, even large ones. Snoopy, they really get dumb in places because you have whipped them so badly with your facts. They have their psychotic beliefs and you have facts. PIT BULLS WEREN'T USED FOR BAITING! They were too small and not powerful enough. Bear baiting was made illegal because it was so cruel to dogs!!! Fighting was more human because the dog generally did not suffer severe injuries and didn't get killed. Pit fighting began in the mid 1800's. Everyone knows this and it has already been posted. They needed smaller dogs than used for bear baiting or bull baiting. It was the Staffordshire Bull Terrier continued to be bred for the pit. "The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a small, nevertheless a very powerful dog. They was smaller altogether and lighter boned, turning the scale at from 25-35 Ibs, and occasionally lighter In 1935 the Kennel Club recognized the breed as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. In 1935 the Kennel Club recognized the breed as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier." "The Pit Bull Terrier have the same history as the American Staffordshire Terrier, more or less, until the year 1935, when the AKC recognized the Am.Staff. In 1898 Chauncy Bennet started the United Kennel Club (UKC) with the sole purpose to registry the Pit Bull, since the breed not were registered when the AKC was established in 1884." http://www.moloss.com/001/breed/b/b010/ The "pit bull" was NOT the dog used in England to bear bait or to bull bait. It was NOT the dog that was originally fought. Most of its heritage is during the time when dog fighting was made illegal. Again, some have tried to make this little dog bigger because it lacks power.

Answer by macker
Submitted on 7/5/2004
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wolves don't normally fight for their lives. they are normally too scared to hurt themselves because then they are a liability. It's not in them to fight for longer than a few minutes, you should know this. if a wolf gets a good hold on a pit than the wolf will kill the smaller pit, the wolf has longer teeth. but a pit is more agile and isnt easy to catch by the slower wolf. dont forget that the pit is in general a betterr fighter to to its ancestry. Like i said before, a pit will win 7 to 8 times out of ten, but thats true about any dog with a fighting ancestry. Apit has a greater psi but smaller teeth, but i still say that the dogue de bordeux and the american bulldog have greater biting power than both.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/5/2004
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we have proof pitbulls fight wild animals many times there own size. we have proof pitbulls can hold a 300 lb. feral hog.we have proof pitbulls hold every record in weight pulling in there size bracket.we have proof they come from a long history of blood sports.we have proof they still fight today. are all these things in vain? do you not see the significance in any of these?it is very naive to think this breed isn't capable of some unbelievable things.i have seen pitbulls do things that i havent seen any other breed do, climb trees for one.jump off a 14 ft. cliff,got flattened by his own weight landing and got up, shook it off with tail waging.jump out of a car window at 45 mph with a leash attached to the door and got dragged at least 100 ft.still waging his tail while covered in road rash. roll down a hill fighting a porcupine, and didn't yelp except when we pulled a quill from one of his nuts, out of 78 quills deeply embedded in him. kill a deer with a broken leg by grabbing its throat, and MUCH MUCH more!!! you ARE NOT going to convince me that this breed is typical of dogs.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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firedragons- i can't speak for everyone on this one but i don't think people are breeding pitbulls to be bigger because they lack power. i think most of them are been bred bigger for protection work.everyone knows that a 50 lb. pit doesn't look that intimidating but a 100 lb. one does. plus if they can increase the strength in comparison with size(extremely hard to do because looks and quality are two separate things)you could have one hell of a dog!!earlier you also said a pitbull is unpredictable, but they give signs by using body language like any other.granted they do not always growl or show teeth first but i can read almost any dog and they communicate much more then most people see. you might not always be able to see good intentions but i can tell a dog is untrustable in less then 10 sec. you are right about most pitbull owners and the rest of us pay for it.breed banning won't help, but i think if we register certain breeds like guns,not allowing violent or abusive people to own them could help. a bad pitbull is only the product of a bad owner and the pitbull is only trying to be good to that bad owner so therefor even bad pitbulls only want to please, unfortunately there owners want to be pleased the wrong ways!!!why do you feel so strongly about pitbulls?seriously.im sorry if you had a bad experience but there are more pitbulls that have become victims then they have victimized showing that even the ones that are mistreated aren't always loose canons.just like you, i get sick of most pitbull owners, but you shouldn't hate the breed that stays so loyal to the lowlifes that feed them.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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Haha! Idiot. You SHOW me where wolves in the wild are cowards. They eat full grown cattle ... and it's been documented and posted here that they kill this livestock...farm animals are healthy, the ones that aren't are put in barns or put to death and sold to a rendering plant. NO guard dog has ever killed a wolf. We have posted various guard dog death by wolves, including the European breeds. There are NO documented fights in which any dog ever killed a wolf in a fight. They don't fight them because wolves are too hard to control. If it was just about tough, they would fight bears or lions. They just use little dogs. The owner doesn't want to spend his profit and feeding a big dog. Breeders are liars that lie constantly. Get over it dude. Cock Fighters also typically stage dog fights. Police have learned to hunt these people down ... any of you guys that really knew about dog fighting would know about cock fighting. New England Animal Fighting Task Force Newsletter Public Policy Issues surrounding the Pitbull Terrier "More specifically, cockfighters can claim they possess birds for shipment to the three legal cockfighting states (Louisiana, Oklahoma and New Mexico) and to foreign countries, when, in reality, they intend to stage illegal cockfights within their own states." Contrary to POPULAR opinion, pit bulls are very inexpensive ... even champions can be purchased for $2,000 or less. That's less than even an untrained hunting dog. A TRAINED hunting dog is worth more than twice this amount. A champion hunting dog can be worth five or more times this amount. "For example, if an owner can verify that their dog has won five consecutive fights, the dog is known as a Grand Champion. That dog's offspring would then be worth $1,500 to $2,000 per puppy." http://www.seacoastcareers.com/2002news/1_18a.htm Also, when Christopher Devito was arrested, much of the "underground dog fighting" that was already known was reenforced....they foudn 40 dogs and a pit. Often, Devito owned both dogs that were fighting...it didn't matter which dog won, because there's no "match" money, just betting money (this is opposed to Japan in which the money is only in winning).

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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other person, you are a complete liar. Pit bulls are known to be unpredictable. In fact, fighters use this a lot...they will tell how two dogs locked in death grips will often wag their tails. It's like they are happy. That's why that cop shot the dog that was wagging his tail. You can't tell. That's not what I mean anyway. Many dogs are not aggressive and they don't bite children. You will never know if the pit bull will bite or not...Princess Steph, with her gift from the Pitbull Association and UKC thought the dogs were OK, but they still attacked children. I think that most of you don't have any idea about dog fighting or dogs .... Pit bull attacks S.F. police horse Cop, dog, pet owner hurt in Golden Gate Park Demian Bulwa, Chronicle Staff Writer Monday, November 24, 2003 A pit bull was shot, a cop and a dog walker were rushed to the hospital, and a police horse named "AAA Andy" was badly hurt but alive -- all this after a chance encounter between two animals on a crisp Sunday at San Francisco's Golden Gate Park. The chaos started at 12:50 p.m. as a young woman walked her black pit bull through the park near the Conservatory of Flowers. According to San Francisco police, she made an illegal and costly decision: She let the dog off its leash. Witnessing the move was police Sgt. David Herrera of the department's mounted unit. He shouted at the woman, ordering her to re-leash her canine, said Sgt. Neville Gittens, a department spokesman. That's when the dog turned its attention to Herrera's steed. The pit bull charged AAA Andy, ripping at the horse's flesh on its back legs and its rib cage, Gittens said. The dog's owner, whose name was not released, tried to intervene. That's when things got really bad. With the dog snapping away, AAA Andy threw Herrera to the ground. At about the same time, the dog's owner attempted to pull her pet away from the horse. But when she got close, AAA Andy kicked her in the face with a hind leg, Gittens said. She went down, joining Herrera. "Then the horse takes off running," Gittens said. AAA Andy galloped through the park along John F. Kennedy Drive, with the pit bull close behind. About a half-mile away, near the Eighth Avenue/Fulton Street entrance to the park, another police sergeant got involved. Sgt. Peter Dacre of San Francisco's Richmond Station had heard Herrera's radio calls for help. Seeing a park gardener and another citizen approaching the riderless AAA Andy, the uniformed Dacre climbed out of his car to help settle down the jumpy horse. "Then somebody shouted, 'That buggering dog is coming back!' " Dacre said. "The dog started having another go at the horse. I was between the horse and the dog, and I tried to kick (the dog)." It was no use. Dacre said he unholstered his .40-calibre semiautomatic Beretta pistol and ended the attack with two shots -- one of which struck the pit bull and sent it scurrying into nearby bushes. Both Herrera and the dog owner were rushed to St. Mary's Medical Center. Herrera went home in a few hours with back and neck injuries. The woman was treated for head injuries and a broken finger, Gittens said. Meanwhile, the dog survived the bullet wound and was picked up by Animal Care and Control. Its condition was unknown Sunday night. AAA Andy was being treated for puncture wounds late Sunday at the police stables in Golden Gate Park. Herrera, reached at home Sunday night, declined comment. Police will review the dog's history to see if it has ever been involved in other attacks. Then police will decide whether to cite or charge the dog's owner, Dacre said. "I think this just goes to the basic unpredictability of certain breeds of dogs," he said. "The dog was frenzied. The whole thing lasted about 45 seconds.'' E-mail Demian Bulwa at dbulwa@sfchronicle.com. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/11/24/BAGLV39DJD1.DTL Wolves kill horses easily, a pit just made some bites and got the pee kicked out of it. Luckily, it also kicked the stupid pit bull owner. The cop should have shot her too!

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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one wolf could not kill a damn horse fireidiot.the horse would not even allow the wolf to get close, before he would mince it with his front hooves. drunk-ass snoopy,you can blow all you want about your wolves and man and mother that has to be paid, to watch her own grandchild. cause i do not care about your life.[even though i would never make my woman buy me a truck and she never has had to work,her job is at home with her fine self]i have seen dogs, wolves,wolf-dogs and about anything else that could be thought of,matched here in Alaska and in Canada.the pit bull dogs are the best.that what they were bred to do,DUMB-ASSES!TOSAS ARE THE ONLY CANINE THAT CAN FIGHT WITH THEM AT ALL.AND THEY ARE NOT AS GAME.DUMB-ASSES!WHY WOULD THE DOG THAT HAS BEEN DEVELOPED TO FIGHT IN PIT CONTESTS NOT BE ABLE TO?DUMB-ASSES! FIREASSHOLE IF YOU THINK I AM NOT ''REAL'' WHAT DO YOU THINK I THINK ABOUT YOUR ASS?IF YOU THINK YOU WOULD TURN ME IN YOU ARE WRONG-I JUST KNOW PEOPLE AND BET ON THESE FIGHTS,PLUS THESE GUYS THAT HOLD THESE CONTESTS,I WOULD NOT CROSS THEM FOR NOTHING!!!dumbest DUMBASS!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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Other Person says, "we have proof pitbulls fight wild animals many times there own size. we have proof pitbulls can hold a 300 lb. feral hog" WHERE IS THE PROOF? Cite your RELIABLE source. Pit bulls DON'T come from a line line of blood sports ... in fact, they were not involved in bear baiting, bull baiting, or pit fighting in England. They didn't even come into existence until AFTER pit fighting was illegal!!! The Staffordshire Bull Terrier was used in pits, and it weighed 25 to 40 pounds. Pit bulls DON'T hold records for pulls in their weight!!! They only hold "pit bull contest" records, pulling weight on wheels. The dominant pulling contest involves pulling sleds, which pit bulls do not compete well against. The pit bull is the result of isolation and therefore other dogs haven't been compared. For example, the UKC was started entirely to recognize the pit bull...this was at the turn of the century when pit fighting had already been outlawed in England. "Unfortunately, many other breeds or crosses are confused with "pit bulls". Similar-looking, but much larger breeds such as: Presa Canario, Cane Corso, Dog Argentino, & Tosa Inu are more frequently misidentified as "pit bulls" than not." http://www.goodpooch.com/MediaBriefs/GPpitbulls.htm Snoopy, I think it's best not to defend yourself. It has nothing to do with the discussion and these guys are punks. You owe them no explainations. I am having a good laugh at them. A pit bull is an inexpensive dog (even a champion is much cheaper than a hunting dog) and small so that it doesn't eat much and is cheap to raise. The money is in the betting, not the winning. Most often, both combatants are owned by the same person. There is NO prize for winning, as found in Japan. The money is from the bets only.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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Of course wolves kill horses!! "Fiscal Year 2000 Wildlife Services responded to 55 complaints of wolves killing, harassing or chasing livestock and/or livestock guarding dogs. Of those 55 investigations, 24 were designated confirmed. The numbers of livestock depredations are as follows: confirmed, 15 calves, 55 sheep, 3 horses, 1 burro (harassing/chasing) cattle and stock dogs (unspecified amount) arassing/ chasing). http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/range456/hot-topics/wolves-cattle.htm Wolf predation is the MAIN predation of many wild horses!!!! "1997, five herds were released into the desert-steppe of the Gobi-B Strictly Protected Areaand International Biosphere Reserve. Four additional herd releases will follow in the next three years. For the reintroduction to be successful 1) it has to be socially and culturally accepted by the local people, and 2) it is necessary to implement a monitoring program to study takhi interactions with other wildlife and the vegetation. The reintroduction of captive-born Przewalski horses into their former range also brings them back into contact with their main natural predators, the grey wolf (Canis lupus). Even though takhis can defend themselves against predators, losses have happened, and predation could become an important factor limiting the population size." http://home.subnet.at/eljot/takhi/dwnld/report_december_2001.pdf Wildlife people can track wolves by their collars. "Washakie Pack: The Washakie Pack killed 2 dogs, 3 horses, and attacked a third dog which later died of injuries suffered in the attack. Two of the horse depredations were recorded as probable and 1 was recorded as possible. All depredations occurred on private land. One wolf was trapped, radio-collared, and released on-site." http://westerngraywolf.fws.gov/annualrpt00/html/annualrpt2000.html LONE WOLVES are often responsible for live stock kills because most packs have learned to avoid man. "Isolated incidents of wolf depredation on livestock were confirmed in the Milk River drainage near the Canadian border east of Glacier National Park (by a suspected lone wolf), and in the Wolf Prairie area (Little Wolf Pack). No control was conducted in these instances. Of 24 cattle, sheep and dogs confirmed killed by wolves in the GYA recovery area in 1999, 23 were on private land." http://westerngraywolf.fws.gov/annualrpt99/ Lone wolves have wreaked havoc among livestock! http://mountain-prairie.fws.gov/wolf/annualrpt01/2001report.pdf

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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thats right you stupid moron wolves, not a wolf.one wolf would not go near a large full grown horse.pit bulls are thought by many to be the fighting dog of roman days.i have a book from the 1880's showing a drawing of a pit bull only they just called it bulldog.if you think the old time bulldog looked like a English bull,you are very wrong.you are the idiot,using wild wolves killing stock and pet dogs as some kind of ''proof''.the proof is one on one,in the damn fight ring,stupid-ass.and the wolf does not make the grade.thats why they are not used,pure or crossed.it has nothing to do with control of them.i see people walking pet wolves and wolf crosses,almost every damn day.there is no bigger punk, than your non-working lazy-ass.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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The owner tried to get her dog, but the horse kicked her in the face. ""Then somebody shouted, 'That buggering dog is coming back!' " Dacre said." Yea, the "fearless" pit turned pansy as most of them do and ran. It came back when it saw someone new to pick on. The cop didn't buy it and shot the dog ..."holding" the dog off, by the way without injury to himself at all. The cop was not afraid to fiend off the dog. He shot him...that was a ticket to the owner! As the two older sisters whacked the three dogs with sticks, Bellamy said he stepped in and yanked Pepper by the collar to another room." Relatives defended the dogs, saying they were kept in the basement as guard dogs and sometimes played with the children. The family had recently obtained Lucky. Bear, the puppy, was also a new addition to their collection of canines. "The dogs are not attack dogs," Bellamy said. "[Makailah] loved the dogs," Smith added.: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/162138p-142189c.html PIT BULL OWNERS ARE OFTEN IDIOTS AND WHEN THEIR DOGS ATTACK AND KILL CHILDREN, THEY ONLY BLAME THE CHILDREN The owner tried to get her dog, but the horse kicked her in the face. ""Then somebody shouted, 'That buggering dog is coming back!' " Dacre said." Yea, the "fearless" pit turned pansy as most of them do and ran. It came back when it saw someone new to pick on. The cop didn't buy it and shot the dog ..."holding" the dog off, by the way without injury to himself at all. The cop was not afraid to fiend off the dog. He shot him...that was a ticket to the owner!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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Snoopy, in reply to your question.. There are sites that hot web pages. You can start a fresh thread from this place too...that's what was done here. Go to the homepage. There is just one or two guys that support the pit bull thing. Trust me on this ... neither of them have been around real fighting and none have been in the wild. They just miss things that one would see...for example, the bear claws!!! I couldn't believe this...did they think you could see the pit's teeth and not the bears teeth or claws Haha!! Idiots!!! Lots of people read this that don't post..they are trying to learn. People don't pay much attention to stuff that is not documented anyway...and these guys never document anything!!! Haha! In the end, they must be like the little pit ...unable to do damage to someone tough, they attack with nit picks!

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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firedragons, where have you been? did you forget we discussed this already? if you want proof look it up, but i will not repeat myself this time, i am not going to play your games little boy.plus you bring up the weight pulls are on wheels,well im sorry to inform you that 5000 lbs. is 5000 lbs. is 5000 lbs. no matter how it is pulled moron.also why don't you look up pitbull history.you are truly a childish pathetic little man who gets thrills off of this,GROW UP its time to be responsible. you would be laughed away by every scientific community that ever existed.you can not prove anything, you do not provide reliable information and your ideas wouldn't fool the average retard.ok now its your turn to throw another temper tantrum little boy so we can all have some more laughs at a spoiled little brat who can't stand to be wrong. PROVE SOMETHING... ANYTHING... c'mon smart ass, you can do better then this, can't you?

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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http://www.doggpower.com/rankings/rankings.asp?org=AMCW http://www.doggpower.com/rankings/rankings.asp?org=APA http://www.doggpower.com/rankings/rankings.asphttp://www.doggpower.com/rankings/rankings.asp?org=TSAMC?org=iwpa%20-%20wheels here are the major weight pull competition records, these events are all breeds and as you can see, pitbulls dominate all other breeds in there weight and even outdo some of the larger breeds.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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Presented here is a well-researched document on the history of the breed, along with bibliography to enable easy research for the interested reader. The reader is encouraged to further study the history of this most fascinating breed, for in its history lies the essence of the animal--an understanding of its history will give one an understanding of the breed. As far back as one cares to go in recorded history, one will find reference in both word and art of molossoid dogs that were used for fighting, hunting, and war. There were different "types" of molossi, spread about the world, used for similar functions and these dogs evolved into our modern day mastiff and bulldog breeds. It is unknown if these types sprang up individually, or from one main ancestor. Some believe that this type of dog originally came from an area close to China. British Chief Caractacus was defeated by Emperor Claudius of the Roman Empire in 50 AD. The Romans were so impressed by the fierce fighting dogs they met when they landed in Britain that they began importing the dogs back to Rome for use in the great arena, along with the animals they already possessed for such uses. It seems reasonable to assume that the British dogs were at some points crossed into the Roman dogs. Ancestors of these dogs were exported to all parts of the continent, including France and to Spain where they became renowned fighting dogs. Later some of these dogs found their way back to Britain. A variety of breeds of mastiff/bulldog type were scattered about, and most likely contributed to the creation of the bulldog that was to be one of the main ingredients used in the development of the Pit Bull. Circa 1406 Edmond de Langley, Duke of York, wrote a treatise entitled "The Mayster of the Game and of Hawks" in which he described the "Alaunt" or "Allen" dog (a descendant of the ancient molossoid dogs), which was the popular baiting dog of the time because of its tenaciousness and strength. In a 1585 painting, dogs described as Alaunts that look very similar to modern day Pit Bulls, only of a larger size, are shown hunting wild hogs. The name "bulldog" was first mentioned in print in 1631. Later, dogs described as bulldogs were used to bait bull and bear. These bulldogs are most assuredly the descendants of the Alaunt. A letter written in Spain in 1632 by an Englishman named Prestwich Eaton to his friend George Wellingham who was in London, asked for a "good mastiff dog and two bulldogs." This gives indication that a split had occurred and the bulldog had already formed into a distinct type by this time. By viewing art, we can see two distinct types of bulldog-like dogs. Some are more low-slung, with undershot jaws, heavier-boned, and broader. It is to be assumed that this is the prototype from which the modern-day AKC English Bulldog was drawn upon, having been created by the crossing of the Alaunt with a Chinese brachycephalic breed Pai Dog. However, also to be noted are bulldogs in art that are strikingly similar to modern day Pit Bulls, with less-exaggerated features, normal bites, and longer legs. Might these be the main ancestors of the current day Pit Bull? It would seem likely. It must be noted that "bulldogs" at this time were not dogs of any particular strain or breed, but rather a type of dog with certain traits that was used for certain things. Dogs which possessed more Pit Bull-like features went on to become the Pit Bull breed, while the more "bulldoggy" bulldogs were used in creation of the brachycephalic breeds (English Bulldogs, French Bulldogs, etc). Bulldogs were used for all manner of work, including baiting, fighting, stock work, hunting, and farm dog. They were an agreeable animal, capable of extreme ferociousness but unwavering loyalty and gentleness towards humans. They were an animal-aggressive breed, but were routinely used in pairs to bait animals and hunt, so overt aggression towards others of their same species was not an extreme trait. In 1835, a law was set in motion that would make the sport of baiting illegal, and over the next few years, the activity eventually died down upon enforcement of the law. The people turned to another blood sport--that of dog fighting, and of course people looked to the bulldog as the likely choice for use in the fights. Selective breeding produced a bulldog with heightened dog-aggression, smaller size, and greater agility for performance in a pit that was decidedly smaller than the large areas that baits were typically held in. Hardy, scrappy sporting terriers were crossed into some of the fighting bulldogs to further enhance these traits. The crosses were called bull-and-terriers, half-and-halfs, and pit terriers. It is considered general knowledge that these crosses were the first Pit Bulls, however there is some speculation as to whether or not the history of these crosses is that of our Pit Bulls, or rather a history "borrowed" from the Bull Terrier, which is a documented bulldog/terrier fighting dog cross. Some students of Pit Bull history believe that the Pit Bull is practically a living replica of the old-time bulldog, and that during this time the bulldog was refined as a fighting dog ?as is?, without any crossbreeding. The question presented is this: why would the devotees of the already extremely game bulldog dilute the blood of the perfect fighting dog with non-game terriers? The typical argument is that the terrier blood increased agility and decreased size. However, the jobs the bulldog was typically required to perform would have demanded agility and the ability to avoid the antics of an enraged bull. As already pointed out, bulldogs came in a variety of sizes and shapes, so breeding down the size to be more compatible with the pit would not have been a difficult task, even without looking outside the gene pool. Examining works of art from all points in history, one will discover dogs that look remarkably similar to today's Pit Bull. It is the opinion of the author, however, that, while the APBT is probably made up mostly of old bulldog blood, at least some terrier blood was indeed introduced, if only by virtue of the fact that quite a bit of cross-breeding went on among the gamedog fanciers of the time who were not so much interested in purebred dogs as they were in dogs with fighting ability, and would therefore breed accordingly to dogs that were game, regardless of pedigree. The breed known as the American Pit Bull Terrier was selectively bred specifically with the idea of it becoming the ultimate canine gladiator. But by virtue of the fact that so much of the breed was made up of versatile bulldog blood, the breed also proved adept at a number of non-fighting activities, including those which the bulldog had been used for. Also, the traits bred for in pit dogs were surprisingly ambiguous in their usefulness, specifically the trait of gameness (which was also present in the bulldog). Gameness is defined as the willingness to see a task through to its end, even under penalty of serious injury or death. Gameness was the trait most cherished in a fighting dog for obvious reasons, however this same trait proved useful in other areas--a dog who had the tenacity to hold a wild bull or boar, steadfastness to protect his master's home and property, and extreme tolerance for pain which made for a very stable dog less likely to bite out of fear or pain was terribly useful in rural old England. So while a core group of fanciers focused on the fighting uses of the breed, and bred with the pit in mind, still others kept dogs for bulldoggy tasks. Pit Bulls were imported to America shortly before the Civil War, and used in much the same manner as they were back in England. But in the USA the breed solidified and was named--the American Pit Bull Terrier. Strains of the fighting dog that remained in England later came to be known as Staffordshire Bull Terriers. There is speculation as to how closely related the Stafford and Pit Bull are as a breed, but the most convincing case is made up of claims that they are a similar breed, developed during the same time, made up of similar but seperate strains of bulldog and terrier blood. Cousins, but not brothers. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier became recognized as a breed by the English dog registry, the Kennel Club, in 1935. In America, the Pit Bull flourished. It was one of the most popular breeds, highly prized by a wide variety of people. The Pit Bull was used to represent the US in WW1 artwork; popular companies like RCA and the Buster Brown Shoe Company used the breed as their mascots. A Pit Bull named Petie starred in the popular children's television series, Our Gang; a Pit Bull mix named Stubby became a decorated WW1 hero. Pit Bulls accompanied pioneer familes on their explorations. Laura Ingalls Wilder of the popular Little House books owned a working Pit Bulldog named Jack. Famous individuals like Theodore Roosevelt and Helen Keller owned the breed. It was during this time that the Pit Bull truly became America?s sweetheart breed, admired, respected and loved. In 1898 the United Kennel Club was formed with the express intent of providing registration and fighting guidelines for the now officially-named American Pit Bull Terrier. Later, those who wished to distance themselves from the fighting aspect of the breed petitioned the American Kennel Club for recognition of the Pit Bull so that it would be eligible for dog shows and other performance events. The AKC conceded in 1936 but only under the stipulation that the dogs registered with them be called "Staffordshire Terriers", the name of the province in England the breed supposedly originated in. Upon acceptance of the breed, many people dual-registered their dogs with both the AKC and the UKC. Lucenay'sPeter (the dog that starred in the Our Gang series) was the first dual-registered Pit Bull/Staffordshire Terrier. The UKC evolved, eventually beginning to register other working-type breeds, and later holding shows similar to those of the AKC. Currently, the UKC is the second largest purebred dog registry in the United States, complete with strict bylaws that ban anyone who is convicted of dog fighting. The American Dog Breeders Association was formed in 1909 because of certain fanciers' opinions that the UKC was not doing it's job protecting and preserving the Pit Bull breed as they felt it should be preserved. The ADBA'sgoal is the same now is at was then: to register, promote and preserve the original American Pit Bull Terrier fighting-type dog. The AKC eventually closed it's studbooks to American Pit Bull Terriers. They allowed registration only to those dogs with parents registered as Staffordshire Terriers. For a short period in the 1970's, the AKC reopened its studbooks to American Pit Bull Terriers. In 1973 the AKC added the prefix "American" to the breed'sname in an effort to distinguish it from the newly recognized Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Today, only those dogs with AmStaff parents are eligible for registration. Both the UKC and the ADBA allow registration of AmStaffs, but in these organizations the dogs carry the original name, "American Pit Bull Terrier." Today the Pit Bull has evolved into a marvelous working and companion dog, used for purposes as varied as those it originally performed. Pit Bulls are employed as police/armed services dogs, search and rescuers, therapy animals, and livestock workers. They compete in all manner of organized dog sports, from herding to agility to conformation to obedience and the bite sports like Schutzhund and French Ring. They make loving pets for children and seniors, and everyone in between. The are indeed one of the most versatile breeds on the planet. Much of this is owed to the activities it once performed. The harshness and physical demands of the activities molded a strong, healthy, stable animal, one anyone should be proud to own.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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For those of you that think wolves don't fight and die. YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK, Wyo. � A grim chorus of howls shattered the predawn stillness. As darkness gave way to dim light, a wolf emerged in a clearing. He was charcoal gray, with a splash of black fur marking his snout and eyes. He sat up tall, his head thrown back in a long, desolate moan. His hot breath froze when it hit the air, leaving shards of ice dangling from his muzzle. Two miles to the southwest, two other wolves howled excitedly from the crest of 9,000-foot Specimen Ridge. Their calls were answered by another group whose voices echoed from the direction of Tower Junction, near the Yellowstone River. "There are three packs out there," wildlife biologist Greg Wright said as he watched the animals through a high-powered lens. "You don't usually hear this much howling. It could be a territorial dispute, but I'm not sure what's going on." Soon, it would be clear. The gray lady � the "Cinderella" wolf � was missing. An ancient fascination When gray wolves returned to Yellowstone National Park nearly a decade ago, the park became one of the few places in the Lower 48 states where the secretive animals could be seen in the wild. Their reappearance in Yellowstone after a nearly 70-year absence has rekindled an ancient fascination with "Canis lupus," the planet's largest wild dog. The wolves have inspired Web sites, books and a cult of wolf-watchers who monitor their activities from dawn to dusk. Of 174 wolves in the park, two attained celebrity status: the female nicknamed Cinderella and her longtime mate, a charcoal gray male. Park researchers called the pair "the Hollywood wolves," because of two National Geographic documentaries that focused on them and their family, the Druid Peak Pack � named for a nearby dome-shaped mountain. To many, they became the embodiment of Yellowstone's wild-wolf program. So Cinderella's absence and her mate's disconsolate wails on that Sunday morning in February stirred special concern among the wolf-watchers. Wolf populations in the Western United States were wiped out in the late 1800s and early 1900s by settlers and bounty hunters. The last wolf in Yellowstone was shot in 1926. The animals were not reintroduced to the park until 1995 and 1996, when biologists captured 31 gray wolves in the Canadian Rockies and released them in Yellowstone. Cinderella's arrival AP A 130-pound gray wolf watches biologists in Yellowstone National Park after being captured and fitted with a radio collar early last year. Cinderella, then a jet-black pup, was part of the original group. She later was given the name 42, indicating that she was the 42nd Yellowstone wolf to be collared with a radio device. She was set free with her mother and two sisters, eventually becoming part of a pack in Yellowstone's Lamar Valley � prime grazing ground for huge herds of elk and bison, prime hunting ground for wolves. The Lamar is wide and open � a long, glacier-scoured basin � allowing anyone with a good pair of binoculars to see the wolves from the Lamar Valley road, near the park's northern boundary and the Wyoming-Montana border. "People used to think it was amazing to see one wolf in the wild in their entire lives. But we've seen them here daily for more than 1,100 days," said wildlife biologist Doug Smith, head of the Yellowstone Wolf Project, a team of National Park Service researchers who released the wolves and now monitor them. Supplementing the work of professional scientists are the observations of amateur wolf-watchers, who make yearly, monthly or even weekly pilgrimages to the park. Arriving before dawn, they set up expensive spotting scopes, stay in touch with other "wolfies" by radio, and take detailed notes on the canines' behavior. Some wolf-watchers form attachments to individual animals. "Our favorite is 42," said Carol Yates, a radiation therapist from Scappoose, Ore., who spends about eight weeks in the park each year with her husband, Richard. Their license plate is WOLF 42. Cinderella was their first sighting. "She's a pretty special girl," Richard said as the couple stood along the Lamar Valley road the day after the wolf's disappearance. They were worried. "I hope she's OK," Carol said. The Cinderella wolf earned her nickname from the harsh treatment inflicted on her by her sister. The assaults were filmed by Montana cinematographer Bob Landis, who spent eight years working on the National Geographic documentaries. In the complex social hierarchy of wolves, each pack has two leaders: an alpha male and an alpha female. The Cinderella wolf's sister was the alpha female in the Druid pack. "She was a fierce wolf who ruled with an iron fist," Smith said. She eventually drove her mother and other sister out of the pack. She then concentrated on Cinderella. The documentaries, aired in 1999 and 2003, showed the alpha female tearing into her sister, leaving scars and bloody wounds. The Cinderella wolf's litter of pups then disappeared from her den, probably killed by the sister, Smith said. Taking over A year later, after more beatings and the birth of another litter, the domineering sister visited Cinderella's den one evening. She met a whirlwind of violent resistance. Cinderella's 6-week-old pups survived; the alpha female did not. Cinderella assumed the role of alpha female of the Druids. She moved her seven puppies to her sister's den, where there were another seven pups. She raised all of them. The day before she went missing, Cinderella spent several hours lying in the afternoon sun on the flats near frozen Slough Creek, on the western edge of the Lamar Valley. To the north loomed the high, barren ridges of the Beartooth Range, including massive Granite Peak, 12,799 feet high. Cinderella was big for a female � 100 pounds � and like her mate, known simply as 21, she had turned a silvery gray as she aged. NATI HARNIK / AP A park tour bus stops to let a wolf cross the road in Yellowstone. Wolves now number more than 170 within the park alone, and total more than 570 in the three-state region of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. That afternoon, as usual, she was lying next to 21, a strapping 8-year-old alpha male. The pair had been inseparable for four years. They snuggled now and then in the clear, cold sunlight, licking each other's face. The rest of the Druid pack � three adults and nine pups � were napping nearby, two of them curled in tight circles with their tails wrapped around their bodies for warmth. Like other alpha pairs, the Cinderella wolf and 21 made all the decisions for their pack: when to rest, where and when to hunt, where to live. The alpha pair usually are the only wolves that breed. The entire pack raises the pups, which are born each April. "Their thick winter coats glistened in the sun that day," said Carol Rickman, who watched them with other wolfies from a roadside vantage point. "She never looked more beautiful than this winter." Rickman and her husband, Mark, an anesthesiologist, live in Pueblo, Colo., and make the 15-hour drive to Yellowstone three or four times a year. "We've been infatuated with wolves since we were young," said Carol, a medical technologist. "We persecuted the wolf for so long and yet they're playful, intelligent and devoted to their families." Another wolfie, Diane Hargreaves of Bozeman, Mont., was impressed by the closeness of the alpha pair. "Even though she was a strong wolf in her own right, he always seemed to want to protect her," she said. "And when there were pups, he always played with them and brought food to the den for them. He'd even bring sticks and other things for them to play with." Rick McIntyre, a wildlife technician with the Yellowstone Wolf Project, can be found on the Lamar Valley road even on his days off, dictating observations on wolf behavior into a tape recorder. He was the first to notice something was wrong that gray Sunday morning. He had seen the wolves howling atop Specimen Ridge. They were from Mollie's Pack, archrivals of the Druids. McIntyre later spotted the Druid pack about two miles away on a low, snow-covered hill north of the Lamar River. The alpha male, 21, was howling. Other members of the pack were there. But the Cinderella wolf wasn't. "That never happens. She's always with the pack," McIntyre said. "You never see 21 without 42. He's never more than a couple of steps away from her." McIntyre pointed a homing antenna in various directions, trying to pick up a signal from Cinderella's collar. When he couldn't, he climbed into his truck and drove seven miles to Elk Creek, where transmission is usually better. He received a weak signal that seemed to come from Specimen Ridge. An enduring rivalry The Lamar's easy hunting grounds also make it attractive to other wolf packs. Mollie's Pack settled in the Lamar in 1995, but a year later the Druids forced it out. Those wolves retreated to Pelican Valley, an 8,000-foot-high meadow that offers little prey for wolves in winter. "The Mollies would love to claim the Lamar Valley as their territory again," said Smith, the head of the Wolf Project. "But they need to drive the Druids out to get it. They'd kill to get it." By Monday morning, members of the project team were gravely worried about Cinderella. On the Lamar Valley road, the regulars were somber. McIntyre told the group that a researcher and a pilot were going up in the "Wolf Plane," a yellow, single-engine Piper Super Cub used to monitor canines in the deeper reaches of the park. "They'll try to pick up her signal from the air," he said. Although he didn't tell the wolf-watchers, he had started to receive a mortality signal from 42's collar � an indicator that she hadn't moved in several hours. "But it doesn't always mean anything," he said. "Sometimes there's a glitch or the collar falls off and that sets it off." On Specimen Ridge There was no glitch this time. From the plane, a researcher spotted the Cinderella wolf's bloody body on high, windy Specimen Ridge. Smith climbed to the top of the mountain to confirm her death. "This was incredibly difficult for me," he said. "I remembered her as a pup. She was the last of the original wolves still in the park. A lot of my life has been spent with these wolves, and she's always been here." Smith struggled for a positive note: "She died in one of the most scenic spots I've ever seen � 9,000 feet high, overlooking the Yellowstone River." McIntyre was left to break the news to the wolf-watchers. They had gathered on a hillside overlooking Slough Creek. Below were 21 and the rest of the Druid family, again lying in the afternoon sun. In a calm, low tone, McIntyre told the watchers that 42 had been killed. "We're trying to put it all together now, but it probably was the Mollies," he said. Carol Yates cried softly. "I guess we're glad we were here when it happened," Richard Yates said. "It's the way of the wolf. At least she wasn't shot." The vigil On Tuesday morning, 21, the big gray wolf, went to the den site he had shared with Cinderella in a wooded glen. They had raised two dozen pups, most of them born here. The Druids' top dog sat in the snow and howled. His deep moans filled the Lamar Valley for days. "He howled his guts out," Smith said. "People say they heard him howl more since she died than he did in the five years before that." Was 21 in mourning? "I can't say that wolves mourn," Smith said. "I'm a scientist, and that's not a scientific thing to say. But I do know he acted differently than he ever did before. You can draw your own conclusions."

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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snoopy, i checked out your website and i must say that the damage wolves do is impressive,but it raises some questions as to whether the damage was caused by the attack itself or the result of the wolves tearing away at it after it was already dead. my point is pitbulls don't usually eat there victims,therfore they don't have to tear them open, but that doesn't mean they couldn't. the injuries inflicted upon some of the animals were no different from what a pitbull could do, but when the animals were dead, then the wounds became much worse as the wolves tore away at it to eat it. if you notice they have pictures of animals that survived wolf attacks and there injuries were no where near as bad further proving my point.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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Other person, you brought up the bear baiting!!! Answer by other person Submitted on 6/29/2004 http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1100000/images/_1100555_beara300.jpg&imgrefurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1100555.stm&h=180&w=300&sz=10&tbnid=H2jY_7_l9RUJ:&tbnh=66&tbnw=110&start=13&prev=/images%3Fq%3Danimal%2Bbaiting%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8 Then you started this bull about three dogs killing a lion or whatever!!! Answer by other person Submitted on 6/29/2004 Rating: Rate this answer: N/A Worst Weak OK Good Great www.peoriahs.org/dogfighthistory.htm here you will find a humane society website that shows a very brief history of the pitbull and what they once were used for.as you will see not only did they fight bears and LIONS, they would die trying to kill elephants.like i said before on the wolverine site, the dogs were much larger then, but they are the origin of pitbull nun the less.also the lions and bears had 30 to 40 ft. chains attached to a collar to keep them from running away.3 pitbulls vs lion,2 vs bear usually.from what some I didn�t pay any attention to that because I knew it was not true. But it was discussed more�..and OTHER PERSON SAID, �but as you can see in some of the pictures, some bears do have their claws and teeth� I KNEW that no dog could fight a bear unless the bear had been disabled. But I looked on that site and that picture and it actually was a picture of a bear with no teeth or claws. You thought the cornification was claws!! Haha!! You didn�t tell me anything dude!!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/7/2004
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Answer by bigDOG Submitted on 7/7/2004 Rate this answer: Worst "many breeds participate in weight pulling,but no breed can match the bully breeds in muscle strengh and pure persistence for their size.''pound for pound,i've never seen another dog,including huskies,shepherds,rottweilers and malamutes,able to compete with a pit bull-type dog''explains jacqueline" IDIOT !!! What is WRONG with you? From the same website, I posted the winners of the REAL competition!! This "best on block" thing was started for PIT BULLS ! It's ike the UKC ... it was started entirely to recognize PIT BULLS. The wheel pull has NO USE and is for urban people with their pits. In real life, the working dog pulls a sled, and no "pit bull" comes close in this weight. American's favorite BREEDS is a pit bull site and they write a lot of stupid ideas too. For example, the idea about the pit bull being one of the most popular breeds because it was used supposedly used in WWI as a mascot and WWII. It's a lie!! "Marine Corps Mascot: (excerpt from Warrior Culture of the U.S. Marines, copyright 2001 Marion F. Sturkey) http://www.usmcpress.com/heritage/marine_corps_mascot.htm Thanks to the German Army, the U.S. Marine Corps has an unofficial mascot. During World War I many German reports had called the attacking Marines "teufel-hunden," meaning Devil-Dogs. Teufel-hunden were the vicious, wild, and ferocious mountain dogs of Bavarian folklore. Soon afterward a U.S. Marine recruiting poster depicted a snarling English Bulldog wearing a Marine Corps helmet. Because of the tenacity and demeanor of the breed, the image took root with both the Marines and the public. The Marines soon unofficially adopted the English Bulldog as their mascot. At the Marine base at Quantico, Virginia, the Marines obtained a registered English Bulldog, King Bulwark. In a formal ceremony on 14 October 1922, BGen. Smedley D. Butler signed documents enlisting the bulldog, renamed Jiggs, for the "term of life." Pvt. Jiggs then began his official duties in the U.S. Marine Corps." http://www.usmcpress.com/heritage/marine_corps_mascot.htm Even if it had been the mascot, which the pit bull was NOT, it does not mean it was popular!!! The Bald Eagle was the National Symbol, but it was endangered!!!! I can quote all the lies that are told by the associatio .. there are hundreds of them. You are so stupid that you read this junk. For example, they didn't use ANY pit bulls in WWI or WWII ... I have posted a lit of the dogs used... The dog in "Spanky" was chosen because it was ugly, odd, and was supposed to not fit. It was not chosen because it was popular or loved! You have the facts about the mascot, the pulling .. and yet you still talk like a crazy BIGDOG! And YOU other one...stupid jerk! You say, "don't you feel stupid i was refering to those.here they are.FIRST-the bears DID have claws and teeth sometimes just like i said look in the first row,last picture fool" Those are cornified digits and there are no claws or teeth. You are a moron. That's the same bear! Haha! LOSER! You are a loser because a dog cannot compete with a bear!! NOt 60 dogs!!!

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/7/2004
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HAHAHAHAAHA LOSER!!! DON"T YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL!!!!!!! THOSE ARE TEETH AND CLAWS HAHAHAHAHAHAHA http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/archive/fight.html then you say "IDIOT !!! What is WRONG with you? From the same website, I posted the winners of the REAL competition!!" HAHAHAHAHHAHA that is only one single event fool HAHAHAHAHA now CHECK THE WORLD RECORDS FROM THE SAME SITE YOU POSTED FOOL http://www.doggpower.com/records/world_record_holders.asp i just put your fire out dumbass!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA .now everyone knows your a LOSER!!!!! you CAN NOT fool me with your manipulitive typing!!! you are a stupid jackass and you can deny it all you want, now we all know HAHAHAHA LOSER!!!!

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/7/2004
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famous quotes from firedragons "Forget this vague and silly stuff on forums!! Can't you ever get a site that is not a highschool expert as your principle proof!! haha!! loser!" man. you are falling into every trap i set fool!!!!!what do you think this is?your losing at your own game and now we have the thrills fag HAHAHAHA. just in case you missed it heres the picture of the bear with teeth and claws. http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/archive/fight.html first row last picture. but you said " I KNEW that no dog could fight a bear unless the bear had been disabled. But I looked on that site and that picture and it actually was a picture of a bear with no teeth or claws."HAHAHAHA WRONG!!your pathetic just like i said!!! hey, would you like to see those WORLD RECORDS AGAIN? 40# Artificial/Wheels Michigan(5/18/2003) Rio Holly Lowery Am. PitBull Terrier 3056 12Mo / All Time 40# Natural/Wheels Somers, CT(10/5/2003) Ruckus Holly Lowery Am. PitBull Terrier 2793 12Mo / All Time 40# Artificial/Snow () Jakie Bob Boncorsi Am. PitBull Terrier 1055 12Mo / All Time 40# Natural/Snow Greeley, CO(2/16/2003) Joker Kevin Hybeck Am. PitBull Terrier 1450 12Mo / All Time 60# Artificial/Wheels Michigan(5/17/2003) Cajun Holly Lowery Am. PitBull Terrier 3626 12Mo / All Time 60# Natural/Wheels Denver, CO(11/16/1999) Chief Kevin Jackson Am. PitBull Terrier 3665 12Mo / All Time 60# Artificial/Snow Wisconsin Dells, WI(2/3/2003) Major Ryan Stringfield Am. PitBull Terrier 1700 12Mo / All Time 60# Natural/Snow Alaska(1/1/1995) Frank Kelly Wilson Mix 2450 12Mo / All Time 80# Artificial/Wheels Ridgefield, WA(1/25/2003) Trudy David Douthit Am. Bull Dog 3940 12Mo / All Time 80# Natural/Wheels Gates, NC(3/27/2004) Stagalee Renee Roberts Am. Bull Dog 4140 12Mo / All Time 80# Artificial/Snow Wisconsin Dells, WI(2/3/2003) Dixie Daryl Anderson Am. Bull Dog 2930 12Mo / All Time 80# Natural/Snow Anchorage, AK(2/28/2004) Kiska Juli Hermans Lab Mix 1910 12Mo / All Time 125# Artificial/Wheels Northville, NY(10/10/1998) Ox Ron Poitras Am. Bull Dog 5088 12Mo / All Time 100# Artificial/Wheels Ridgefield, WA(1/26/2003) Shank John Armour Am. PitBull Terrier 4900 12Mo / All Time 100# Natural/Wheels Evans, CO(3/16/2003) Renegade Tim Long Am. PitBull Terrier 4980 12Mo / All Time 100# Artificial/Snow Wisconsin Dells, WI(2/3/2003) Buddy Marty Stringfield Am. PitBull Terrier 2700 12Mo / All Time 100# Natural/Snow Alaska(1/1/1987) LT Norm Stoppenbrick Unknown 2600 12Mo / All Time 125# Natural/Wheels Evans, CO(3/16/2003) Boogie Mark Landers Am. PitBull Terrier 4860 12Mo / All Time HAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOSER!!!!

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/7/2004
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World War I: The United States had not established an official K9 Program during World War I. American Troops had to barter with the French, Belgian and English troops for trained sentry and courier dogs. The most famous American War Dog in World War I was a dog named Stubby. Stubby was a stray pit bull who was picked up on the streets of Hartford Connecticut by Robert Conroy and smuggled on board his troop ship headed for France. On February 5th 1918, Stubby became the mascot of the 102d Infantry, part of the Army's 26th "Yankee Division". Stubby became a hero when he distinguished himself in the battles of Chateau-Thierry, the Marne, Saint-Mihiel and the Meuse-Argonne http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b11e5041ec8.htm

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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Snoopy is right. Wolves fight dogs one on one because they see them as some kind of competition for position. A fight with a dog and wolf lasts just seconds. Everyone knows this. If you hunt, you keep your dog away from wolves. Bears are terrible hunters but they are by far the strongest of the predators and even a lion will fall to a bear. I certainly would not fight one...I met a eskimo once that fought a bear and was just incidental...he lost his leg, damaged without the bear even trying. Dude, I didn't have to "search" the net. You see, I KNEW all this. I just had to document it. I didn't learn about bear claws by looking at the picture you said showed claws! Idiot! The pit has its place. But should never be around children. You don't know the difference between breeder lies and bull and fact. There are HUNDREDS of sites saying that some pit was the most decorated dog...yet when you check the sources, they are not true. There are hundreds of sites that say the pit is the Marine mascot...again, I have some knowledge of the Corps and I know it's not true. There are all kinds of sites that talk about pits winning temper awards. Again, this is not true. There are all kinds of sites saying that they will obedience awards...again, pits are the pits. Many say they are lovable, and that's fine. But keep them away from kids and build proper fences for them to play. It's a terrible thing when an owner might be suspect of fighting because he has a treadmill for his dog or wants his dog to be strong. Pit fighters bring harm to everyone. If you know one, turn them in!! Let the police know and crack some skulls. I would put my money on a Tosa ... herders wear five inch spikes on their colors and so the drape of the Tosa would not be a bigger advantage than a regular dog...but a Mastiff is another large and powerful dog. Have you ever lost a cat in the wild? My sister lost one once and in just a week, it went crazy! It did not recognize her and when she picked it up it ripped her apart. I told her about feral. Wolves are like a feral animal that is a monster to begin with. They can smell you several miles away. They can follow you three days after you have passed. The wolf will hunt you ... I have been circled many times by wolves and I wonder what they are thinking and why they are tracking me. Answer by other person Submitted on 7/7/2004 Rating: Weak "Hellen Keller owned a "Pit Bull". Truth: Yes, she did. Reportedly, so have other famous people such as Fred Astaire, President Theodore Roosevelt, and General George Patton. Currently, people such as Michael J. Fox, Stephany Kramer, Jan Michael Vincent, and Jeremy Miller own or have owned an American PitBulls just to name a few. Click Here to see an old picture of Helen Keller and her American Pit Bull." I doubt it. I have read about her dog being in the war and I kow that's not true at all. I know that John Wayne Gacy had a pit bull. So did Wayne Lucas, along with an amphetamine bag. The pit bull is the choice of drug dealers...mostly because drug dealers are stupid and represent the slime of society. Dude, I have dispelled that junk about pit bulls and the war. NONE were listed as even being used. Another lie. I gave the official dog military site.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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http://www.pitbullnet.com/ this website has a part of the ww1 poster that has the pitbull. the full poster had 4 other dogs from each of the major countrys in ww1. the pitbull represented america and had a slogan that went something like this..."I'm neutral, but I'm not afraid of any of them." perfect dog for the slogan, if you ask me. Yea, at pitbull.com !!! Pit Bulls were useless and not used in the wars. They were deemed less than useless. �Dogs on duty in Pacific: 327; dogs killed in action in Pacific: 29; dogs missing in action in Pacific: 5; dogs died at sea (transporting to or from the war zone) 5; dogs returned to former owners following war: 173; dogs returned to new owners or found a new home: 29. Of 1,047 dogs that served in the Marine Corps during WWII, 44 percent were in the Pacific. Of the 1,047 that underwent training, 295 were rejected (a result of improper recruiting). While Always Faithful will stand as the signature to these brave animals' contributions to the U.S. war effort, Putney played a key role, too, in placing a War Dog Cemetery on the Orote Point U.S. Naval Base on Guam July 20, 1994, at the 50th anniversary celebration of Guam's liberation. In 1989, he had revisited Guam to find the Marine War Dog Cemetery that had been established in 1944 in total disrepair. "It was moved to the jungle in central Guam," Putney said, "and totally overgrown. In other words, those four-legged heroes were all but forgotten. It broke my heart. I left there determined to move it to a site where our government would maintain it." Former war-dog unit members have held annual reunions for years. "We're down to only about 12 to 15 guys now," said Putney, 81, during the phone interview. "It used to be quite an event, but now it's pretty quiet." But this year's gathering in Nashville promises to be particularly uplifting. "I'll sign everyone's book," he promised, "and we'll critique it, I'm sure." Rest assured, Always Faithful puts a defining exclamation mark on their story. http://www.petplace.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=3014 Also, the official military memorial for war dogs of WWI does not list a pit bull. The statue is of a collie. Instead of posting junk from pit bull sites, why don't you go to the military sites and check it out? This site has all the links!!! http://skylinerfan.angelcities.com/page10a.html BRITISH WAR DOGS IN THE GREAT WAR -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contributed by Graham Evans in 'Trenches on the Web' "The WDTS at Shoeburyness was moved to Matley Ridge, Lyndhurst in 1918 until May 1919 when it was finally moved to Bulford on Salisbury Plains. Breeds of Dogs Used Border Collies Airedales Lurchers English Sheepdogs (must have been fun grooming them after a day in the trenches) Retrievers Summer Dogs. A term that includes the famous Heinz Terrier, i.e. 57 Varieties.; also called Summer Dogs because they are "Summer This" and "Summer That", in other words, mongrels." http://freespace.virgin.net/sh.k/wardogs.html

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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Thanks for proving my point, Snoopy. "Radiographic and mechanical analyses of the dentaries of Canis lupus indicate that the jaws of the gray wolf are designed for relatively quick killing bites and bone crushing with the post-carnassial molars. Field observations of prey capture and consumption support these findings." Quick "killing" bites.. inflicting ONLY deep puncture holes that are non-lethal for the most part UNLESS a main artery is struck. Not too likely if a serious fight is enagaged and there's too much movement to be able to apply the killing bite to the neck. These are clean bites. The bone crushing is ALWAYS done with the molars or premolars. Spotted Hyenas (Crocuta Crocuta) can crush large bones thanks to their enormously enlarged premolars. In the wolves case the bones can only be crushed when the prey is either seriously wounded, dead, or isn't quick enough to not let the damn thing chew on it with it's molars (it would have to be lying down and letting the wolf chew on it). A molar bite... in a fight with a Pitbull... sorry.. won't happen. Maybe after it's dead (which I doubt it would be after such an encounter) when the wolf wishes to consume it. Once again, the bone crushing only comes when consuming the animal.. after it's been subdued (paralyzed) or killed. Not in the heat of battle. Premolar bites can occur here... molar bites almost never do!! Wolves do not have enlarged premolars like Spotted Hyenas! For the record.. many Mastiff/Bulldog breeds can crush bones as well. Look up the BARF diet for the non-believers. I've got both of my Pitbulls on it. They snap steak & pork bones like they're toothpicks. They love the raw meat as well!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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In a cage a wolf is not the same as a wild wolf. It is confused and afraid. Wolves have been hated more than any animal and they know that people most likely mean to kill them. It is a sad truth. In a pit fight a wolf is only a broken spirit. Not interested in the fight at all. Thats why I said, There is no such thing as a game wolf. However in the wild they are very skilled. If a pit came at a wolf opened mouth that would be his down fall. Wolves have huge mouthes. They also are used to things trying to kill them. It is an everyday thing. Thats why dogs have head damage, they lunge at the wolf mouth open. The wolf then grabs their head and crushes their mouth as much as it can. This is what happened to the dog still on its chain. A wolf is not a dog. If you think a dog (pit bull) could kill a wild wolf you are messing with mother nature. Everyone knows, don't fck with mother nature. That is the truth.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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Thanks for proving my point, Snoopy. "Radiographic and mechanical analyses of the dentaries of Canis lupus indicate that the jaws of the gray wolf are designed for relatively quick killing bites and bone crushing with the post-carnassial molars. Field observations of prey capture and consumption support these findings." Quick "killing" bites.. inflicting ONLY deep puncture holes that are non-lethal for the most part UNLESS a main artery is struck. Not too likely if a serious fight is enagaged and there's too much movement to be able to apply the killing bite to the neck. These are clean bites. The bone crushing is ALWAYS done with the molars or premolars. Spotted Hyenas (Crocuta Crocuta) can crush large bones thanks to their enormously enlarged premolars. In the wolves case the bones can only be crushed when the prey is either seriously wounded, dead, or isn't quick enough to not let the damn thing chew on it with it's molars (it would have to be lying down and letting the wolf chew on it). A molar bite... in a fight with a Pitbull... sorry.. won't happen. Maybe after it's dead (which I doubt it would be after such an encounter) when the wolf wishes to consume it. Once again, the bone crushing only comes when consuming the animal.. after it's been subdued (paralyzed) or killed. Not in the heat of battle. Premolar bites can occur here... molar bites almost never do!! Wolves do not have enlarged premolars like Spotted Hyenas! For the record.. many Mastiff/Bulldog breeds can crush bones as well. Look up the BARF diet for the non-believers. I've got both of my Pitbulls on it. They snap steak & pork bones like they're toothpicks. They love the raw meat as well!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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Thanks for proving my point, Snoopy. "Radiographic and mechanical analyses of the dentaries of Canis lupus indicate that the jaws of the gray wolf are designed for relatively quick killing bites and bone crushing with the post-carnassial molars. Field observations of prey capture and consumption support these findings." Quick "killing" bites.. inflicting ONLY deep puncture holes that are non-lethal for the most part UNLESS a main artery is struck. Not too likely if a serious fight is enagaged and there's too much movement to be able to apply the killing bite to the neck. These are clean bites. The bone crushing is ALWAYS done with the molars or premolars. Spotted Hyenas (Crocuta Crocuta) can crush large bones thanks to their enormously enlarged premolars. In the wolves case the bones can only be crushed when the prey is either seriously wounded, dead, or isn't quick enough to not let the damn thing chew on it with it's molars (it would have to be lying down and letting the wolf chew on it). A molar bite... in a fight with a Pitbull... sorry.. won't happen. Maybe after it's dead (which I doubt it would be after such an encounter) when the wolf wishes to consume it. Once again, the bone crushing only comes when consuming the animal.. after it's been subdued (paralyzed) or killed. Not in the heat of battle. Premolar bites can occur here... molar bites almost never do!! Wolves do not have enlarged premolars like Spotted Hyenas! For the record.. many Mastiff/Bulldog breeds can crush bones as well. Look up the BARF diet for the non-believers. I've got both of my Pitbulls on it. They snap steak & pork bones like they're toothpicks. They love the raw meat as well!

Answer by BIGdog
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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pits are used by drug dealers because,they are easy to train,have a hard bite,sheer guts and want to please their masters.drug dealers want a dog, to give them time from the police.plus keep drug theives away,as if they are ripped off they have no recourse,but their own.they do not care about the dog!they would use a bear if they could! other person-the wolf does not have the temperment to fight a pit bull or tosa.they are a animal that hunts to eat.pit dog men HAVE USED WOLVES IN THE PAST.THE WOLF JUST DOES NOT HAVE IT BETWEEN THE EARS.IF YOU TYPE IN ''BEST FIGHT DOG'' ON GOOGLE A SITE LIKE THIS COMES UP.GO THOUGH AND READ BIG D -HE IS A SOUTHERN OLD TIME DOG MAN.HIS TWO POSTS TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT PIT BULLS -TOSAS AND WOLVES.THIS GUY KNOWS.THERE IS A COUPLE OF MORE ON THIS SITE,BUT I DO NOT KNOW THESE GUYS ALTHOUGH THEY SEEM TO BE KNOWLEDGEABLE.READ IT -IT IS THE TRUTH!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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ANIMAL ENEMIES: MYTH VS. REALITY While the big bad wolf may be the villain of fairy tales, this animal doesn't even cause a blip on the radar screen when it comes to animal/human conflict. Brad DeVries of the Defenders of Wildlife says there are no records of wolves killing a person in the United States. But the wolf's "tamer" cousin does not always live up to the motto of man's best friend. From 1979 to 1996, dog bites killed 340 people in the United States, with most of the fatalities involving children 14 and younger, according to the Centers for Disease Control. While Rottweilers and pit bulls were responsible for more than half of those deaths, experts stress that it's not fair to condemn a breed for what's usually the sin of its owner. Dozens of breeds, from dachshunds to Yorkshire terriers have caused deaths. Original Source (CNN) cited from: timberwolfinformation.org dated September 25, 2002: http://timberwolfinformation.org/info/archieve/newspapers/viewnews.cfm?ID=257 Original Source (CNN): http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/25/coolsc.critters.attacks/index.html NO RECORDS OF A WOLF EVER KILLING A SINGLE PERSON IN THE WHOLE UNITED STATES (as of nearly 2003)! ROFL!! "While the big bad wolf may be the villain of fairy tales, this animal doesn't even cause a blip on the radar screen when it comes to animal/human conflict." Virtually NO animal and human contact.. wolves don't even touch them in the US! Now THAT'S sad. Talk about smoke and mirrors. Laughs

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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"Dogs and cats with exceptionally powerful jaws, such as the pit-bull may cause a bite to the body of a small animal, or the extremity of a large one. So powerful are these jaws, they may sometimes cause the flesh to rip open in the same manner as an over-inflated automobile tire." "The following photos show a leg-wound caused by the single bite of a forty pound pit-bull. The first image was made shortly after the incident, the second was ten days later after the stitches were removed and the swelling improved. Here, the marks reveal that the right canine penetrated the flesh extremely deep, while the left barely broke the skin. The long gaping wound is the result of the tearing and pressure applied below and to the left. Neither of the dog's teeth touched this area. The third image shows the backside of the injured leg and imprints of the dog's lower teeth are clearly visible." http://www.bigcats.org/abc/images/pitbiteIV.jpg http://www.bigcats.org/abc/images/pitbiteV.jpg http://www.bigcats.org/abc/images/pitbiteII.jpg That last picture says it all and that was only from a 40lb. Pitbull!! Here's what a wolf's bite would look like, taken from a Doberman Pinscher attack: "The following photo shows a more typical dog-bite as the scar-tissue shows only two punctures, the upper and lower canines of a Doberman-pinscher." http://www.bigcats.org/abc/images/dobermanbite.jpg Unbiased source for these wound pictures: http://www.bigcats.org/abc/identification/bitemarks.html Notice the straight 'in and out' "clean" bite that these dogs (Dobermans) have. Not much damage at all. Wolves bite the EXACT same way. All they do is puncture deeply! They don't lift deep mounds of flesh like Pitbulls do when they bite down hard. Their bite radius isn't big enough for this! "In summary, ripping bites cannot be attributed to cats, large or small. These wounds are almost always perpetrated by dogs, and most commonly large dogs. Felines of all species puncture with the teeth and claws, but these punctures can rarely be matched to any pattern in identifying a specific animal. Ripped flesh and gaping wounds represent the methodical killing technique of dogs. When such wounds are caused by the feline, it should be considered a failed attempt which is extremely rare with the calculating feline." Hence wolves similarly leave the same types of flesh wounds from a bite that wild cats leave. Just deep puncture holes. Mastiff/Bulldog breed attacks will virtually ALWAYS result in more damage/bite/area than what a wolf can induce per area (Unless a canine hits a main artery, obviously. This could be said about the dogs as well).

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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ANIMAL ENEMIES: MYTH VS. REALITY While the big bad wolf may be the villain of fairy tales, this animal doesn't even cause a blip on the radar screen when it comes to animal/human conflict. Brad DeVries of the Defenders of Wildlife says there are no records of wolves killing a person in the United States. But the wolf's "tamer" cousin does not always live up to the motto of man's best friend. From 1979 to 1996, dog bites killed 340 people in the United States, with most of the fatalities involving children 14 and younger, according to the Centers for Disease Control. While Rottweilers and pit bulls were responsible for more than half of those deaths, experts stress that it's not fair to condemn a breed for what's usually the sin of its owner. Dozens of breeds, from dachshunds to Yorkshire terriers have caused deaths. Original Source (CNN) cited from: timberwolfinformation.org dated September 25, 2002: http://timberwolfinformation.org/info/archieve/newspapers/viewnews.cfm?ID=257 Original Source (CNN): http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/25/coolsc.critters.attacks/index.html NO RECORDS OF A WOLF EVER KILLING A SINGLE PERSON IN THE WHOLE UNITED STATES (as of nearly 2003)! ROFL!! "While the big bad wolf may be the villain of fairy tales, this animal doesn't even cause a blip on the radar screen when it comes to animal/human conflict." Virtually NO animal and human contact.. wolves don't even touch them in the US! Now THAT'S sad. Talk about smoke and mirrors. Laughs

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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"The wolves have come to Grant County faster than anyone expected and there's some people unhappy about it." So said David McCauley, president of the Grant County Cattle Growers, at the group's meeting Tuesday night. McCauley was introducing a presentation by Alan Armistead, the Wildlife Services representative on the interagency Mexican gray wolf recovery team. Armistead has been in the Cliff/Gila area for the last week and a half, attempting to trap three members of the recently rereleased Mule Pack, which has been on Alan and Debbie Eggleston's Double E Ranch east of Gila since April 13. As Armistead explained, his job on the team includes capturing problem wolves and investigating possible wolf depredations by studying bite marks and other evidence -- both on live and dead animals -- related to predator attacks. Armistead began his talk by presenting a slide show depicting the differences between damage done to prey by wolves and other predators. One telltale sign, he said, is the fact that wolves' carnivore teeth are 35-42 millimeters wide, much more than the typical span of a coyote's carnivore teeth, at 25 millimeters. Another distinctive characteristic of wolves is their jaw strength. As Armistead said, "There is nothing like the compression damage that wolves create when they kill something." A wolf can bite with pressure of up to 1,500 pounds per square inch, he said, enough pressure to crush large bones. But Armistead said, the presence of compression damage alone may prove a wolf fed on an animal -- but it doesn't prove the animal was killed by wolves. To illustrate his point, he showed a slide depicting the underside of a cow's hide, covered in blood. "When they bite something you can see it actually crushes the muscle underneath," he pointed out. If the animal is still alive when being bitten, the animal will hemorrhage. "The hemorrhaging is what proves it," he said.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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Mr. Grunt, you are new hear. I checked your source...it was NOT an original source, in other words ... it was someone quoting someone else. The statement is generally, "there is no case of a healthy wolf killing a person" This excludes rabid wolves (I posted an article from Pravda that said rabid animals killed about 10,000 people in parts of Asia) and an article from National Geographic saying that wolves killed 80 people at least in India. The fact is that dogs kill people in very populated areas. There are generally witnesses. In the ocean, people are often not around and there are many disappearances of people in the ocean. There are also people in the swamp that disappear. Unless they have evidence, no one can say how they died. What he actually said was, "Attacks by healthy wild wolves on humans is almost unheard of, and there has never been a fatal attack on a human by a healthy wild wolf in North America." http://www.wolfcenter.org/Hertel/html/FactFiction.html Pay ATTENTION to the sentence. If NO wolves had killed a person, it would say NO WOLVES. It says a "healthy wolf" Also, the wolf must be WILD. If it was in captivity, it does not count. If it is part wolf and part other animal, it doesn't count. Wolves in captivity that kill their owners do NOT count. For example: "In our opinion the responsibility always rests with the breeder or owner of the animal. - We saved Mickey, a pet wolf who had killed a child in Wayne, Michigan, from being euthanized. We were widely criticized for this action by some people, and were praised by others. Mickey lived out his life at WOLF PARK as a living example as to why a pet wolf does not belong unattended on a chain in an unfenced yard." http://www.wolfpark.org/wolfdogs/position.html You will find that areas frequented by humans do not have the game necessary to carry a wolf pack...so, wolves take high ground or wilderness areas away from people because unless people are the prey, they is not enough game to sustain them. Mech mentioned a hunter that was attacked by a wolf and credited it to the wolf thinking the man was a deer. There have been posts of people killed in the USA by wolves ... most wolves were killed off before 1900 and scientists don't accept deaths unless they can examine the body. Most wolves had been killed in Europe during the 1700's and in some places during the 1600's. In Russa, where wolves rule in places, wolves commonly kill people, livestock, anything they can find. Oh, and the rabid animals that are killing people in Asia don't count...they are not "healthy" There are five million dogs in the USA, most of which are in populated areas...so contact is much greater. The journalist wrote a stupid article that ... was not a good comparison. The wolf numbers are very low in the USA....and they rarely encounter people.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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I have heard many comments from pit people saying these people had pits, but never an original source, which leads me to believe they made this up ... I have never read mention of Helen Keller's dog by Helen Keller, but she mentions her dad's dog, ""next to his family, loved his dog and his gun." Above all, Captain Keller was a loyal Southerner who had proudly served as a captain in the Confederate Army. " I often read that she loved Shakespear and there were pictures of her stroking her dog. I found a picture. She had a Poodle. It disgusts me the lies that pit people tell and it's hard to check. Think of all the sites that say Helen Keller had a pit, and she didn't. She had a small poodle!@!! http://www.rotaryhistoryfellowship.org/women/famous/keller/bio.htm I defy you to cite a site that has ORIGINAL information about the person that mentions pit bull. Obviously, Helen Keller didn't have a pit bull. You will find atheist sites that say Thomas Jefferson was atheitst...and yet he wrote a book saying the Christian religion would make the perfect government.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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GLENWOOD -- A confirmed wolf kill west of Glenwood has resulted in a decision to trap the wolves involved -- the Gavilan pack -- and return them to captivity. A carcass of a 1,400- to 1,500-pound red Angus bull was found about 2 p.m. Tuesday on the Cross Y Ranch's Citizen grazing allotment. A cow on the same ranch allotment was killed by the wolf pack on Dec. 26. Nick Smith, center, wolf biologist with the New Mexico Game and Fish Department, addresses a group of about 35 people Wednesday at the site of a wolf-killed bull on Smoothing Iron Mesa. Sun-News photos by Lisa Parker The area where the dead bull was found is on Smoothing Iron Mesa near the Arizona-New Mexico border. Wolf recovery officials arrived at the site around 9 a.m. Wednesday to study the carcass and surrounding site and decide whether wolves were responsible for the bull's death. Alan Armistead, wolf management specialist with Wildlife Services, was in charge of the determination. Armistead, along with wolf biologist Nick Smith of the New Mexico Game and Fish Department, scoured the surrounding area for signs of a struggle or wolf activity. Early into the process, he commented, "Everywhere you look there's a wolf track," and said it was obvious wolves had eaten the bull. But, he added, that did not mean wolves had killed the bull. Armistead and Smith completed their review of the remote kill-site area before allowing about 35 interested people -- mostly neighbors of the Cross Y -- to it. Armistead then performed a necropsy on the carcass -- mainly just skin and bones -- taking more than two hours to complete his examination. He said that since "all the major muscle tissue is gone it's going to be difficult" to determine cause of death. "It's just like a crime scene -- the more you can see the easier it is." Armistead said everything is taken into consideration when confirming a possible wolf kill, including history on the dead animal, history on the wolves and location of the wolves. "We know that they've been here since Sunday and that's time to eat a lot of meat," he said. Armistead pointed out a crushed knuckle bone -- the size of a softball -- and said, "To give you an idea of the jaw pressure -- about 1,500 pounds per square inch it takes to crush that. ... There's not anything else (besides wolves) that can crush that knuckle," he added. The Gavilan pack -- a mated pair, a yearling and five pups -- was being tracked by wildlife biologist Kendall Brown, who confirmed that the wolves had entered the Smoothing Iron Mesa area on Sunday. Armistead determined the bull had been dead about three days, and around noon Wednesday he declared it a confirmed wolf kill. "Each wolf pack is developing a characteristic way of killing," he said. "This particular pack has pretty much been concentrating on adult cattle," he added, saying there is no evidence the pack has preyed on calves. This is from www.gilawilderness.com The is a nice picture of a wolf running back to the den with a caribou head in his mouth at wildnatureimages.com

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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Have you noticed how many Pit Bull sites contain lies and obvious misinformation? For example, about mascots, dogs used in the military, awards to pit bulls, feats of pit bulls..it's sad. And part of the response is people don't understand what they read. Posters have posted dogs do soft tissue damage and Mr. Grunt posts something he thinks is new or revealing ... about soft tissue damage from dogs. That's one way experts tell the difference between dog damage and wolf damage. A wolf breaks bones and crushes skulls. Instead of looking at someone bleeding, you see dead animals with their brains on the ground and their guts removed by the big gap created when the ribs are bitten and ripped out!!!

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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Most pitbulls you here of attacking people are NOT game bred pitbulls, and thank god for that!!!!because the difference between poorly bred and game bred, is a whole different subject in itself.Almost all the severe injuries that were inflicted upon people were from poorly bred pitbulls. If game bred pitbulls were human aggressive, You would see even worse injuries and more fatalities.A game bred pitbull contradicts itself, it is much more lethal, yet much safer.You should all be thankful that real dogmen push for these qualities, and realize that almost every other breeder ruins the breed in more ways then one.You will probably never hear of a true game bred pitbull killing or even attacking someone,not because they can't, but because they won't!! All the attacks you hear of are very poor examples of the a.p.b.t. so the injuries themselves are also poor examples.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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No animal perhaps that is a predator can defeat a bear. They are by far the stongest predator. They can kill lions. Some are huge...one Kodiak weighed 2,500 pounds !! It was as high at the shoulders as a Bison!!! Think about that! The bear is a terrible predator though. It was built for power. A wolf might fight with a bear and many might kill a bear. A dog does not have the strength to even harm the bear. A bear can run a mile or more ... some day five...with an arrow in it's heart. I read where a bear killed a bull after it had been shot in the heart. I saw a large animal decapitated by a bear. They flip boulders over and large logs. Just flip them. Other person says, "Most pitbulls you here of attacking people are NOT game bred pitbulls" NO you are wrong. Pit bull idiots often do not have the capability of keeping their pets under control. NO one has five or more pits unles they are fighing them. "pit bred" is meaningless. Studies show that a dog that does well in a fight does not really improve. Dogs are stupid. They don't learn much from fighting. They are conditioned .. they run on treadmills and build their jaw strength. That's it. So, a pit that is a champion will not do any better against a wolf that a brand new pit that has never fought or been trained...because this animal will not last more than a few seconds. The spike collar can gain some time, but the wolf will rip open the skull. I have some hunting dog pictures that show this...in one case, the spike actually came off the neck because the head was gone! There is no compensation for hunting dogs. We tried to document the case with pictures and footprints and covered the animal for viewing ... but there was a gray area. Can you believe these pit sites claimed Helen Keller had a pit? So disgusting.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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Answer by Jerry Submitted on 7/8/2004 Rating: Weak "whats sad is FIREDRAGONS.WE SEE THOUGH YOUR CRAP-DUMBASS.THATS IS A GOOD LIE YOU HAVE GOING WITH SNOOPY.THAT IS YOU ,JUST LIKE ''PETE'' IS!YOU ARE A KID,JUST A YOUNG BOY.I CAN TELL,SNOOPY,PETE THATS FIREASSHOLE." Presas eat pit bulls alive (the Presa can whip ANY pit bulls ass, trained or not) "Knoller was aware that Schneider and Bretches sent Noel a copy of a book called Manstopper, and a newsletter called �Gripper.� (RT 4824-4827.) The �Gripper� newsletter discussed the police department�s use of Presa Canarios to disable pit bulls. (RT 4827.) IN THE COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FIRST APPELLATE DISTRICT, DIVISION TWO THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, Plaintiff and Appellant, v. MARJORIE F. KNOLLER, Defendant and Respondent. Haha!! Loser!! You are right, I am only 12 years old and I have kicked your ass. What difference does it make loser? R U telling us that you have a weak mind, that a child is smarter than you and understands the woods better? It's incredible that you could be such a loser. You are rare.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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So, if you come upon a wolf/wolves why would anyone in the right mind be afraid? NO WOLF/WOLVES HAS EVER KILLED OR EVEN ATTACKED ANYONE IN THE WILD FOR AT LEAST 150 YEARS. IF THE WOLF ENCOUNTERS ANYTHING, INCLUDING DOGS, WITH HUMAN SCENT ON IT THEY FLEE, RUNAWAY, HALL ASS, BLAZE TRAIL, CHECK OUT, HIDE UNDER A ROCK. A TIGER, BROWN BEAR, LION, CROCODILE AND ESPECIALLY THE HIPPO AND POLAR BEAR WILL NOT HESITATE TO HUNT, EAT, KILL OR ATTACK A HUMAN. THE HIPPO AND POLAR BEAR WILL ACTUALLY TARGET HUMANS. GET IT WE'RE ON THE MENU. NO WOLF HAS EVER DONE THIS THAT WE KNOW OF. IF THEY HAD EVEN ONCE WE WOULD HAVE RECORD OF IT. THE WOLF WILL NOT EVEN FEED ON HUMAN REMAINS, EVEN A COYOTE WILL DO THAT. YOU ARE JUST FEEDING EVERYONE THE SAME PRE WW2 HYSTERIA THE SAME HYSTERIA THAT ALMOST DROVE THE WOLF TO EXTINCTION. YOU ARE THE SAME IDIOT THAT WOULD HUNT THEM OUT OF RUMOR AND FEAR. EVEN THE LOWLY PIT BULL WOULD BE MORE THAN MOST WOLVES COULD HANDLE ALONE. MOST OTHER REAL PREDATORS WOULD DESTROY A PIT BULL NOT TO MENTION WHAT THEY (TIGER, HIPPO, LION) WOULD DO TO A WOLF! AND THEY ARE NOT THE TOP OF THE CHAIN THE POLAR BEAR IS. IN THE WILD A WOLF GIVE A POLAR BEAR A WIDE PATH BECAUSE A POLAR BEAR WOULD DESTROY AN ENTIRE PACK OF WOLVES WITHOUT INJURY. NOW IF A WOLF HAD THE CAPABILITY THAT YOU SAY THEY HAVE THEY WOULD BE IN THIS LIST AND THEY ARE NOT THEY HAVEN'T THE SIZE, STRENGTH, OR ABILITY OF EVEN A MT. LION. WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE NEXT LEVEL OF PREDATORS THAT SHARE THE SAME TERRITORY AS SOME WOLVES. IF THE WOLF WAS OF THE DIMENSION THAT YOU SAY THEY ARE THEN THEY WOULD WEIGH APPROXIMATELY 300-500LBS. LIKE THE MT. LION OR BLACK BEAR. AND THEY DON'T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THAT SIZE. BE REALISTIC A WOLF REALLY ISN'T THAT TOUGH IF THEY WERE TO ATTEMPT TO EVEN TAKE ON A MOUNTAIN LION ALSO KNOWN AS A COUGAR, THEY (WOLF) WOULD BE DESTROYED AND CONSUMED. I WOULD NEVER EXPECT A FLATLANDER TO EVEN THINK ABOUT THE MT. LION. WE DO, WE KNOW WHERE THE DANGERS ARE. THAT'S HOW I KNOW YOUR FULL OF CRAP. THE AVERAGE WOLF IS BETWEEN 65-90LBS. THEY ARE NOT BIG ENOUGH TO DO THE THINGS YOU SAY THAT THEY CAN. IF YOU LIVED AROUND HERE YOU'D KNOW THAT, IT'S WHAT WE CALL COMMON SINCE. OH AND BY THE WAY WE ALL KNOW YOU DON'T JUST COME UP HERE AND TRACK WOLVES. A LITTLE THING CALLED ALTITUDE SICKNESS, FLATLANDER CAN'T MAKE IT HERE. SEE FLATLANDERS DON'T THINK ABOUT THESE LITTLE THINGS, WE SEE IT HAPPENING ALL THE TIME. IF YOU HAD DONE THESE THINGS, YOU'D KNOW "THESE THINGS." WE SEE PEOPLE LIKE YOU EVERYDAY DRIVING DOWN THE INTERSTATE "READING AND WATCHING T.V." ABOUT WOLVES. SOMEONE LIKE YOU WHO SAYS THAT YOU'VE JUST, COME UP HERE FROM LOUISIANA AND TRACKED WOLVES WOULDN'T MAKE IT A DAY. IF YOU SURVIVED THE ALTITUDE THE BEARS WOULD GET YOU. IF YOU HAPPENED TO SURVIVE THAT, THEN YOU WOULD GET LOST IN THE ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AND MEADOWS THAT LOOK THE SAME. IF YOU MADE IT THAT FAR THEN, WELL NEVER MIND YOU WOULDN'T. PEOPLE LIKE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR UP AGAINST, YOU COMMONLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT SNOW FLIES 11 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR HERE. YOU DON'T JUST GO TRACK A WOLF WITHOUT THE PROPER EQUIPMENT, PERSONNEL AND TIME. THE WRONG DECISION WILL COST YOU YOUR LIFE. IF YOU HAVE TO CUT AND PASTE OUR INFO AND RELY ON THE INTERNET, T.V. AND OTHERS HERE YOU'LL DIE, QUICK. YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF IN A 10 FOOT SNOW STORM IN THREE HOURS THAT WASN'T PREDICTED BY THE WEATHERMAN ON T.V. OR THE INTERNET. WE ALL KNOW THAT IS ALL YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THATS ALL YOU DO FOR YOUR INFO. YOU SEE, FIREDRAGON, WE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF A SET OF SNOWSHOES OR A HAT. WITHOUT EITHER HERE YOU COULD VERY EASILY DIE, BUT YOU WOULDN'T REALLY KNOW THAT THOUGH WOULD YOU just ignore butthead, maybe fireLIER will go away

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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"Also, Mr. Grunt, there is some confusion here. WE have said that dogs cause soft tissue damage. If the damage is over large enough portions of the body, it can result in death, although NO pit bull has EVER had the strength to kill a healthy ADULT human." Soft tissue damage huh? Where is the source for this "fact"? I'll show you your soft tissue damage inflicted on a healthy adult male from a 40lb. American Pitbull: http://www.bigcats.org/abc/images/pitbiteII.jpg Does this look like soft tissue damage? "NO pit bull has EVER had the strength to kill a healthy ADULT human." This is completely ludacris to say. Think about what you've just said here for a minute. First off, I realize that many of these Pitbulls are killing smaller children and kids that are 14 and under most of the time here in the USA. HOWEVER, most of these dogs doing the killings ARE NOT EVEN PITBULLS. They are mixed dogs with some Pitbull in them. Many ARE NOT PUREBREDS. Many of these dogs are quite small as well and quite weak. A full-blooded Pitbull 60lbs.+ is not weak. First, I doubt you know this just here in the US. Second, you are going by the RECORDS ONLY. As I was with the wolf kills here in the US. Third, did you ever think that there are plenty of other countries and continents out there where Pitbulls thrive and HAVE killed healthy adults? Surely women would count as adults and I know for a fact they've been killed by Pitbulls. Full grown men have too. Think about every place on this earth where a Pitbull could have killed healthy adult humans. Google it.. I'm sure it won't be too hard to find. For the record, Pitbulls aren't into killing people nor are they into being people-aggressive. Many are animal aggressive... NOT people aggressive. If they were people aggressive to the extent of some of the other breeds then I'm sure healthy adult human fatalities would increase in their favor. Most of these child fatalities here in the US once again are NOT FULL-BLOODED PITBULLS. "Wolves on the other hand crush bones." Yes, ONLY when they have subdued the animal and can apply molar bites and deep premolar bites while CHEWING the animal. They ONLY CRUSH BONES WHEN CONSUMING THE PREY. Not any other time. Even Hyenas don't crush bones when simply biting a larger animal. They have to be chewing the animal meaning at the time of consumption.. not while wrestling around with prey. Think about it. Is the prey realling going to let the wolf chew on it with the back of it's mouth where the premolars and molars are when they are wrestling around? No. You know this yourself... wolves use their canines to kill or paralyze the animal.. they DO NOT use their premolars and/or molars to do this. These are only used when it comes time to consume the animal.. bones included as these teeth are wide enough and flat and strong enough to crush these bones. A wolve's canines and other teeth besides these are not strong enough to crush and grind bone.. they'd chip and break like ANY other animal. Aligatorids and Crocodilian are the only two animals that can consistently snap thick bones with frontal mouth bites as they snap hard enough to break them with enough bite force. "The pits that rip scalps off do this because they don't have the strength to crush the bone. Wolves do...they bit right into the skull." Pits DO have the strength to crush bone. Please, nobody is stupid enough to believe something so stupid. Wolves bite into the skull eh? Well, congratulations, so do Pitbulls. Not just any skull though.. a 300lbs.+ wild boar's skull. "We named him Dracula for his HUGE teeth. When I pull those gums up he shows both long and thick teeth.. Well Drak sure knows how to use em. On a man you need a thick sleave. His bite is amazing. On one boar hunt he bit right thru the boars skull. Hard to do....." Source: http://www.southernbulldogs.com/virgildogsapril.html The guy that wrote that is Jami Long and he's a well respected dogman. He also happens to write for the ADBA Pitbull Gazette and is a moderator of the very well known Bandog Banter. He has no reason to lie about this. He's not just the only person either that has went boar hunting with his dogs just to find out that larger Pitbulls can bite through boar's skulls. It happens. These are bulldogs with insane intensity and jaw strength.. not minpins. Also, take a look into the BARF Diet. If you know anything at all about this diet you will know that it stands for Bones And Raw Food Diet. Dogs will chew on the bones and consume them whole sometimes. I've given my dogs steak and pork bones where the first snap has broken them into 2 pieces and these are thick strong bones.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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FireDragons wrote: "Presas eat pit bulls alive (the Presa can whip ANY pit bulls ass, trained or not)" You are no longer worth addressing. You're simply a troll. If you knew anything about Presas OR Pitbulls you wouldn't be stupid enough to say such stupid sh!t. This is completely wrong and hilarious at best. Also, for the record, you are wrong about a lot of your Tosa beliefs as well. I know plenty of people that are part of the Tosa scene here in North America as well as the Tosa scene in Japan. I know Josh Shozen from Touryukai (used to live in Washignton but moved back to Japan) I know Pat and Tony from Toshi Tosas in Nova Scotia, Canada. I've spoken with Michelle French of StoneWall in Knoxville, Tn. She has the best Meiken Yokozuna blood/Yokozuna blood/ and Ozeki blood outside of Japan. I've spoken with Jan Libourel before.. whom you like to quote so much but leave out the conclusion that justifies that a 60-70lb. Pitbull MIGHT BE the toughest dog in the world. You are either lying or completely ignorant about many things that you post. Since you are Snoopy, Pete, and probably even this new girl that says that pitbulls can't even bite as hard as poodles this shows that nobody is buying into your bs my friend. Note: Tosas are a very strong and capable fighting dog.. however, they ARE NOT hard-mouthed dogs as a breed as a whole. Pitbulls are super hard-mouthed dogs. They are super shakers. Tosas don't even shake much when in holds. When they do, they are weak shakes. Why do you think that the Japanese mix APBT into their light-middleweight Tosas? For increased shaking, maneuverability, wind, etc. The Japanese, just like us Americans, realize that hard shaking is the way to inflict the most damage. Not to mention APBT's are used to get these Tosas down into the low 80lb. range. Tosas that are not mixed with APBT will not ever be in the high 70lb. range or low 80lb. range. It's a very common mix over in Japan. Want proof since you don't know much about any of this I'll be MORE THAN HAPPY to upload some TosaxAPBT mixed fights that are lightweight-middleweights from the May 2003 tournament in Japan. I've seen all of Touryukai's footage. I've seen more than enough Bully Kutta footage in Pakistan and India and more than enough APBT fights to judge what from what. Incase you didn't know... WakaShogun, Ginsho-go etc. all have APBT in them. The Japanese have been using APBT blood in their Tosas for decades now.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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Listen Loser Grunt. In Japan, they fight for a tournament purse. Not for bets, only to win. You are a punk and you don't have any friends in the business and if you did, you would probably be arrested by now. I know of dog fighting. Dog fighters are low life scum, generally sell drugs. Look at what happened recently with the arrests. All were losers, just like you. The pit has NEVER won even a local tournament. Yea, you can say the pit is too strong, but you are stupid beyond belief. TOP pit bulls are not as expensive as cheap hunting dogs. They are cheap and expendable. That's why they use them. I cited the cost too. They arrested one of the top fighters and he had 50 dogs. In NO recently, they arrested a fighter. A pure Tosa cost more than five champion pit bulls. They are much bigger and much more expensive to keep. It's thousands a month cheaper to keep 40 pits than 40 Tosas. All you say is that you know people...well, I have given telephone numbers to LEGAL dog fighting in Japan....anyone can call them. Yea, yea, but you know about the million dollar prize! You are full of yourself and weak minded !! Haha! Get on with your life and over it. Listen, you can't do this with a Tosa, the hardshaking. Their skin will stretch back a foot. They neck have drapes that prevent a dog biting the neck. You can talk all you want ... but the fact is that the pit doesn't beat the Tosa and isn't even big enough !!! The smallest runt Tosa is barely small enough for the biggest pit. As for Pakistan, you are just a freak. Bear baiting isn't about fighting, stupid. It's more like the Christians being thrown to the lions. In HUNDREDS of years, no human ever killed a lion with his bear hands. It was like watching a snake eat a mouse..the fear, the struggle and the complete helplessness. Yes, the dogs bite and fight a toothless and clawless bear...and the bear still kills most of them or injures them. Some survive.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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There is NO pit blood in their Tosa. Not at all. The Tosa became a breed while the pit was just a mix. The Europeans brought mastifs and mixes to Japan. They were very large and the Japanese dogs did not do as well as they liked. So, the Japanese immediately bred the toughest dog...not the toughest small do, but the toughest dog. They had the emperor to help and they were much smarter than Europeans .... they still have their records. They bred a high cost animal that can beat any dog. No pit has won any major tournaments, and we have posted these tournaments. You cite trash sites. The one about Helen Keller was a pit site and a lie. I suspect the other did not own pits either. I do know that many serial killers own pits as well as the worst trash in society. I posted the numbers on the

Answer by Pete
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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Mr. Grunt says, "Soft tissue damage huh? Where is the source for this "fact"? I'll show you your soft tissue damage inflicted on a healthy adult male from a 40lb. American Pitbull: http://www.bigcats.org/abc/images/pitbiteII.jpg" what do you think soft tissue damage is? Yes, this looks like soft tissue damage and that's why a pit is not strong enough to kill a healthy adult human and why children have fought off pit bulls, elderly people in wheel chairs have kicked multiple pit asses, and why a collie/shepard mix fought three hardened pit fighters and kicked their asses. The pits ran away! It surprises me...don't you know the difference between soft tissue damage and being torn apart, broken bones, and so on? Finding the carcass in pieces?

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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you are a liar ass macker,the jag goes to 350LBS. MAX,IS THE THIRD LARGEST CAT IN THE WORLD.VERY THICKLY BUILT,HUGE JAWS AND HEAD.PLUS IS VERY AGGRESSIVE.TWO OF YOUR DOGOES WOULDN'TBE ABLE TO HANDLE ONE!THIS BREED WEIGH ES 95LBS,MAX.IS MIXED WITH 10 DIFFERENT BREEDS!A PIT KILLS THEM WITHOUT A BIT OF TROUBLE.GO LIE SOMEWHERE ELSE. LITTLE LIAR BOY FIRE WEINER-YES I COULD TELL YOU WAS A BOY.IT REALLY SHOWS -NOW YOU HAVE A MAN ''MR.GRUNT''THAT HAS TOLD YOU LIKE ''IT IS''.READING THOUGH YOUR LIES -FIRE WEINER QUOTE-''WOMEN WITH A BROOM HAVE KILLED PIT BULLS OR BY KICKING THEM''THATS A HOOT WEINER BOY!''FOUR PIT BULLS ATTACKED AN OLD WOMAN HER SON KILLED THEM EASILY'' AND THEIRS THE ONE WHERE YOU HUNT WITH AFRICAN WILD DOGS -NO LESS.THAT REALLY SHOWS YOU ARE A LIAR LITTLE BOY.OR THE GATOR ATE YOUR HUNTING DOG AND THE LOCATER WAS IN THE GATOR SENDING SIGNALS TO YOU!THE ACID IN THE THINGS GUTS WOULD HAVE STOPPED IT FROM WORKING,DUMB ASS LITTLE LIAR BOY!OR THE ONE WHERE YOU ARE ''BEAR HUNTING''AND YOUR BUDDY FALLS AND IS BLEEDING,SO YOU JUST HAVE TO STOP, CAUSING YOU TO BE UNABLE TO SAVE YOUR DOG!YEAH GO BACK AND READ THIS IDIOT KIDS EARLY POSTS,HE SAID ALL THIS AND MORE!YOU DID NOT PROVE NOTHING WITH YOUR LIES!JUST A TROLL,THAT IS FULL OF SH!t!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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With special permission I am able to show the you the content that you get by obtaining a membership to touryukai.com to be able to watch this video footage. I zipped a complete webpage (pics included) that shows what's available. I am NOT however, allowed to distribute the videos as they are "pay for" only. All of this material is 'copyrighted'. In this content you will notice that there are ATLEAST 9-10 APBTxTOSA mixed dogs present from this Touryukai footage in these following tournaments: Japan Tournament May 2003 Japan Tournament November 2001 Okinawa APBT tournament 2001 APCJ tournament You have to be a "member" to actually view the videos but I am making available to the public the content that can be obtained by purchasing a 1 month membership. Why am I allowing this "membership" content to be made available to the public? 1 reason. To show EVERYONE how much of a TOTAL IDIOT and LOSER FireDragons is! Remember FireDragon's quote here -> "There is NO pit blood in their Tosa. Not at all." and TRY NOT to laugh too hard when reading the description of the dogs that each bout consists of! For the ones that are not labeled "APBTxTOSA" mixes... simply by looking at the small pics, size of the animal, look of the animal, and the weight description of the animal you will be able to fill in the blanks on those as well. Most ARE labeled "APBTxTOSA" mixes though, as you will soon see. I made the claim that the Japanese use "APBTxTOSA" mixed dogs everywhere and anywhere... this is proof of that. The Japanese DO mix their Tosas with APBT's on a regular basis! In these 4 separate tournaments alone, this is shown. Retire already 'troll' (FireDragons), you know 0 about "the scene" as I stated earlier. =D Become a member so I can laugh at you more and then I'll await your apology.. then you can suck me off to make it up to me since you're a f@g like that. Unzip (extract) this zip file to your desktop and click on the webpage 'Welcome.htm'. When it loads... welcome to the truth of discovering that the Japanese routinely mix their Tosas with APBT and have them compete in some of their largest popular tournaments! Size: 124KB's http://r1422379.hostultra.com/Touryukai1.zip

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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This is old but worth mentioning.. there's too much stuff to post like this. Maybe I'll do 3 or so a day until FireDragons gets the point. TOP SECRET ANIMAL ATTACK FILES from Ananova Pit bulls kill 19 zoo animals Saturday 12th January 2002 "Two pit bull terriers have rampaged through a small Florida zoo, killing 19 animals. The dogs killed pygmy goats, exotic birds, a donkey, cats, dogs and other animals this week at Fantasy Farms, south of Jacksonville. The dogs, also blamed for killing other domestic animals in recent weeks, were captured. Paul Studivant, animal control supervisor for St. Johns County, said the dog's owners agreed to let the animals be destroyed without a court order. He said: "These dogs didn't do it for food. They did it for sport." http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2002/pit_bulls_kill_animals.html TOP SECRET ANIMAL ATTACK FILES from bayarea.com SF police respond to another pit bull attack Wednesday, June 20, 2001 BY BAY CITY NEWS SERVICE SAN FRANCISCO - San Francisco police report that a pit bull was shot dead this morning after it attacked a German shepard and her new litter of puppies at 1044 Mississippi St. A San Francisco police officer said that the German shepard was lying in the garage with her puppies when the pit bull came barreling in and attacked around 7 a.m. The owner of the German shepard grabbed a 2-by-4 plank and hit the pit bull about 25 times, according to police, but it still would not let go. Police say that the shepard's owner then grabbed his handgun and fired three shots at the pit bull until it finally let go and died. The puppies were not harmed and their mother is recovering from serious injuries to her neck, according to police.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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wolves like to kill coyotes too. A wolf could and would grab a pits head like that and shake it in the same way. Nez Perce Pack. Dr. Smith(Doug Smith), head of the Yellowstone wolf team, told me that the Nez Perce wolf pack has learned to kill adult bison, and has killed two over the last week or so. The pack's range has many elk, but is especially abundant with bison. The bison were killed in the Hayden Valley. Significantly a bear cub was recently found dead there, killed by a cougar or wolves. However, cougar rarely visit this part of the park. Even though the first grizzly to have been killed by wolves may have been recorded, the provision of extra animal protein by wolves has greatly benefited the grizzly population. If wolves become significant predators on bison, even more will be available. You got NOTHING!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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S.F. Police Shoot Pit Bull S.F. Officers Fire 30 Bullets To Kill Pit Bull Woman bitten trying to end fight Sunday, March 18, 2001 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/18/MN27846.DTL Here's some highlights of a rather humorous read: TOP SECRET ANIMAL ATTACK FILES Special Report forwarded by AAF Correspondent in Alaska Wolf attacks 6-year-old near Yakutat by KAREN AHO Daily News reporter Thursday, April 27, 2000 "In what may be the first report of a wolf attacking a human in Alaska, a radio-collared wolf on Wednesday repeatedly bit a 6-year-old boy playing in a grove of alders at a logging camp northwest of Yakutat, Alaska State Troopers said. The boy had tears on his back and puncture wounds, but he was not seriously injured, troopers said. The wolf, an adult male that returned to the area shortly afterward and was shot, did not have any obvious signs of injury or trauma that would immediately explain aggressive behavior, troopers said. The wolf will be tested for rabies. The 6-year-old was bitten three times, once in the lower back and twice in the buttocks. All were puncture wounds, with some tears on the lower back. A camp carpenter ran out and threw rocks at the wolf, which let go of the boy, Cloward said. They said it appeared to be an average size wolf and weighed about 75 pounds. The boy was treated at the Yakutat clinic, where he received seven stitches and five surgical closure staples, troopers said. McNay said he knew of no documented reports of healthy wolves killing people in North America. He couldn't recall any reports of wolves attacking humans in Alaska." http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2000/wolf_attacks_boy_in_alaska.html These wolves can't even kill a 6 year old boy let alone actually seriously injure him!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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Grunt, if you look back through the posts you'll see that I have already proved to everyone on this site, Firelier is full of sh!t. I gave them all info on a real test that a friend and I did on a calibrated bearing press, accurate down to the 10 thousandth of a pound. They wont even address it. Simply because the have all the way been telling how a wolf can "CRUSH" a Moose femur in half one bite. No wolf has killed anyone for at least 100 years. Most were a good way to hide a murder. Anyway this guy is full of it, just go back and read my posts. Just the last few. Whats funny is that Snoopy is using that info to prove how strong a wolfs bite is, quite the contrary. That just shows how ludicrous the LIE that a 85lbs. wolf can "CRUSH" through a adult Moose femur. See I live up here with them, Firelier is just another flatlander that "Possibly" went on some GUIDED hunts. He also told me that he consistently goes to the forest (8K-15k) from Louisiana and just hops out and starts tracking wolves for fun. He stated that he spots them and just follows. Now think about it, us highlanders know that you just don't go do that. You will be needing some equipment like Pack mules, horses, on and on and on. Thats if you go on horse back, it's hard enough to keep up on a horse. First he says that he would never own one and then says that he owners two. Everything that he "Cuts and Pastes" is also someone Else's opinion aka "HEARSAY". Someone who has nerve been even close to the animal. He also told me that Colorado was "Flat and Brown". Thats not to mention all of the times they (firedragon, neal, snoopy) stated or quoted TV shows. Thought you would get a kick out of that. HE REALLY BELIEVES HIS OWN BULLSH!T. I'LL put everything on the next post.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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Grunt all he can do about this is "hurl insults" like a little girl. Second he will tell you about a lying site that states that there are thousand being killed by wolves. However once again NO PROOF. I spent a lot of time in Germany and europe as a whole and I never heard of this. So, if you come upon a wolf/wolves why would anyone in the right mind be afraid? NO WOLF/WOLVES HAS EVER KILLED OR EVEN ATTACKED ANYONE IN THE WILD FOR AT LEAST 150 YEARS. IF THE WOLF ENCOUNTERS ANYTHING, INCLUDING DOGS, WITH HUMAN SCENT ON IT THEY FLEE, RUNAWAY, HALL ASS, BLAZE TRAIL, CHECK OUT, HIDE UNDER A ROCK. A TIGER, BROWN BEAR, LION, CROCODILE AND ESPECIALLY THE HIPPO AND POLAR BEAR WILL NOT HESITATE TO HUNT, EAT, KILL OR ATTACK A HUMAN. THE HIPPO AND POLAR BEAR WILL ACTUALLY TARGET HUMANS. GET IT WE'RE ON THE MENU. NO WOLF HAS EVER DONE THIS THAT WE KNOW OF. IF THEY HAD EVEN ONCE WE WOULD HAVE RECORD OF IT. THE WOLF WILL NOT EVEN FEED ON HUMAN REMAINS, EVEN A COYOTE WILL DO THAT. YOU ARE JUST FEEDING EVERYONE THE SAME PRE WW2 HYSTERIA THE SAME HYSTERIA THAT ALMOST DROVE THE WOLF TO EXTINCTION. YOU ARE THE SAME IDIOT THAT WOULD HUNT THEM OUT OF RUMOR AND FEAR. EVEN THE LOWLY PIT BULL WOULD BE MORE THAN MOST WOLVES COULD HANDLE ALONE. MOST OTHER REAL PREDATORS WOULD DESTROY A PIT BULL NOT TO MENTION WHAT THEY (TIGER, HIPPO, LION) WOULD DO TO A WOLF! AND THEY ARE NOT THE TOP OF THE CHAIN THE POLAR BEAR IS. IN THE WILD A WOLF GIVE A POLAR BEAR A WIDE PATH BECAUSE A POLAR BEAR WOULD DESTROY AN ENTIRE PACK OF WOLVES WITHOUT INJURY. NOW IF A WOLF HAD THE CAPABILITY THAT YOU SAY THEY HAVE THEY WOULD BE IN THIS LIST AND THEY ARE NOT THEY HAVEN'T THE SIZE, STRENGTH, OR ABILITY OF EVEN A MT. LION. WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE NEXT LEVEL OF PREDATORS THAT SHARE THE SAME TERRITORY AS SOME WOLVES. IF THE WOLF WAS OF THE DIMENSION THAT YOU SAY THEY ARE THEN THEY WOULD WEIGH APPROXIMATELY 300-500LBS. LIKE THE MT. LION OR BLACK BEAR. AND THEY DON'T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THAT SIZE. BE REALISTIC A WOLF REALLY ISN'T THAT TOUGH IF THEY WERE TO ATTEMPT TO EVEN TAKE ON A MOUNTAIN LION ALSO KNOWN AS A COUGAR, THEY (WOLF) WOULD BE DESTROYED AND CONSUMED. I WOULD NEVER EXPECT A FLATLANDER TO EVEN THINK ABOUT THE MT. LION. WE DO, WE KNOW WHERE THE DANGERS ARE. THAT'S HOW I KNOW YOUR FULL OF CRAP. THE AVERAGE WOLF IS BETWEEN 65-90LBS. THEY ARE NOT BIG ENOUGH TO DO THE THINGS YOU SAY THAT THEY CAN. IF YOU LIVED AROUND HERE YOU'D KNOW THAT, IT'S WHAT WE CALL COMMON SINCE. OH AND BY THE WAY WE ALL KNOW YOU DON'T JUST COME UP HERE AND TRACK WOLVES. A LITTLE THING CALLED ALTITUDE SICKNESS, FLATLANDER CAN'T MAKE IT HERE. SEE FLATLANDERS DON'T THINK ABOUT THESE LITTLE THINGS, WE SEE IT HAPPENING ALL THE TIME. IF YOU HAD DONE THESE THINGS, YOU'D KNOW "THESE THINGS." WE SEE PEOPLE LIKE YOU EVERYDAY DRIVING DOWN THE INTERSTATE "READING AND WATCHING T.V." ABOUT WOLVES. SOMEONE LIKE YOU WHO SAYS THAT YOU'VE JUST, COME UP HERE FROM LOUISIANA AND TRACKED WOLVES WOULDN'T MAKE IT A DAY. IF YOU SURVIVED THE ALTITUDE THE BEARS WOULD GET YOU. IF YOU HAPPENED TO SURVIVE THAT, THEN YOU WOULD GET LOST IN THE ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AND MEADOWS THAT LOOK THE SAME. IF YOU MADE IT THAT FAR THEN, WELL NEVER MIND YOU WOULDN'T. PEOPLE LIKE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR UP AGAINST, YOU COMMONLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT SNOW FLIES 11 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR HERE. YOU DON'T JUST GO TRACK A WOLF WITHOUT THE PROPER EQUIPMENT, PERSONNEL AND TIME. THE WRONG DECISION WILL COST YOU YOUR LIFE. IF YOU HAVE TO CUT AND PASTE OUR INFO AND RELY ON THE INTERNET, T.V. AND OTHERS HERE YOU'LL DIE, QUICK. YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF IN A 10 FOOT SNOW STORM IN THREE HOURS THAT WASN'T PREDICTED BY THE WEATHERMAN ON T.V. OR THE INTERNET. WE ALL KNOW THAT IS ALL YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THATS ALL YOU DO FOR YOUR INFO. YOU SEE, FIREDRAGON, WE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF A SET OF SNOWSHOES OR A HAT. WITHOUT EITHER HERE YOU COULD VERY EASILY DIE, BUT YOU WOULDN'T REALLY KNOW THAT THOUGH WOULD YOU just ignore butthead, maybe fireLIER will go away

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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I am trying to explain this, Wolves are not bred to fight. They have breen trained to kill for millions of years. Pit bulls have been bred to fight, not kill. Pit bulls do not know to imediatly go for the throat for a kill, wolves do, and do it all the time. Wolves also have stronger jaws. They are faster. They deal with death on a day to day basis. Killing a pit would be easy compared to killing a moose or bison.It would only take one wolf and wouldn't last long. Pit bulls fight not kill. Wolves are skilled in killing and have been for millions of years. A wolf would just kill a pit bull. That's why shepards in Italy fit their dogs with spiked neck bands. The wolf always goes for the throat. A pit does not. It's thousands of years of skill vs millions of years vs skill.You would have to be an idiot to think the pit bull would even live. Wolves are not dogs but hunters of the wild. Have been for millions of years. Mother nature is laughing at you.

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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a pit bull wilL GO FOR THE THROAT.THE BIG DEAL ABOUT PIT IS THAT THEY ARE FAST FIGHTERS.A FREAKIN ENRAGED BLUR ON ANOTHER DOG!THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT PLACES THEY LIKE TO BITE,BUT YOU SEE IT DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE THEY ARE SHAKING VERY HARD WHEN CLAMPED.SO A WOLF CANNOT HOPE TO GET A KILLING BITE ON A PIT!TWO CANINES FIGHT-THE THROAT IS NOT ALWAYS EASY TO BITE.DUE TO SPEED AND MOVEMENT.SOME PITS THAT ARE GREAT DOG AND WOLF FIGHTERS, GO FOR THE SIDE OF THE HEAD.THAT RENDERS THEIR OPPONENTS ALMOST HELPLESS.AFTER WHILE THE HOLD MAY BE SHIFTED,AS THE WOLF/DOG WEARS ITSELF OUT TRYING TO GET FREE.THEN THE KILLING THROAT HOLD MAY BE TAKEN.PIT BULLS DO FIGHT TO THE DEATH,SNOOPY.THE REASON ANY LIVE, IS BECAUSE THE LOSER DOGS OWNER WILL GIVE UP THE MATCH AND PAY UP!YOU SEE I KNOW BECAUSE,UNLIKE YOU OR 12 YEAR OLD FIREBOY,I HAVE BEEN THERE.ALL THIS AND THIS=THAT DOES NOT IMPRESS ME.AS THAT IS JUST TALK!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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The pit is not a fast fighter at all. They used them for "game" which means that they are a stupid animal that will do the same thing over and over...play with a ball or hang on something. The game is just entertainment. They wanted an animal that was entertaining, and unfortunately, the animal attracted the most stupid people on the face of the earth. It's a small dog ... I can use a knife fight as an example. If two people fight with knives, the fight is over fast if they are serious. There is no time for betting. No change in winners going back and forth. These dogs will fight sometimes for a couple hours. The perverts that watch this go back and forth with bets. There is no "prize" for winning, the money is in the bet. Even if a dog is a grand champion and wins five in a row, he is only worth 1,500 to #2,000.00 Never worth much. So, what good is a champion? You need only have a dog that can survive. He will win some and lose some but the money is in the bets. You can know when he will turn or not. There are some blood sport sickos here that have no idea what is real and what is not. SNOOPY HAS THE RIGHT IDEA. The pits are NOT bred to fight. There is not enough in the Gene pool for this. They are NOT TRAINED TO FIGHT. Listen, dude, they are not people. They don't learn well, they are just stupid dogs that hand on ... sometimes. You can't teach them moves. The training is conditioning. A better conditioned dog will do better! But most owners are lazy and won't run them or spend several hours a day with them. So, they get tired quick in many cases and people will change their bets if they notice a change (not change, but put money on the other side) ... but sometimes they are looking elsewhere and just talking.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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Mromero�I am not going to take the time to look it up about bears because you are so stupid and I am tired of proving your wrong! Loser! Get on with you life. Bears are terrible hunters. They are not built for hunting, they are built for strength. I have seen bears run past me � a tiger would not make that mistake. Neither would a lion. Bears are slow compared to wolves or other animals� Of course the bear is not the fastest predator in the woods. The wolf is much faster. Speed is important with a predator. The bear has superior scent abilities to other animals � judging from anatomical studies�but he is terrible at hunting. You might have seen a bear catch a caribou�I doubt it. You thought a bear that had been declawed�had claws. Anyone that has been around bears notices these big claws�and the cornified digits. Bears carry hundred of pounds or even a thousand or more�on bare skin. That skin goes over rocks and all kinds of obstacles and can climb tries. It�s very tough and very evident�but you should be able to tell the difference. You couldn�t. I don�t think many believe you know about pits or hunting or being in the woods, because you haven�t been to the zoo!! Idiot!!! Haha! You make me laugh. You don�t know what makes a good hunter.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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Good point Jerry. A good hold on the head, side of face, or throat would render the wolf helpless. Wolves aren't like gripping dogs... they don't hold their bites as much as Bulldog breeds do and they don't shake half as hard or nearly as much. What Snoopy/FireDragons/Neal etc. don't understand is that a wolf on average is only 75lbs. or so. I have a Pitbull this size... it's not too uncommon to see Pits this big and bigger into the 80lb.+ range. Snoopy is expecting us to believe that wolve's heads are gigantic, teeth always gigantic, and that they weigh so much more on average. I read that they can get up to around 150lbs. This is big but still... many Mastiff breeds get larger than this. The largest dog in history was 348lbs., an English Mastiff recorded in the record books. Snoopy wrote: "Wolves are not bred to fight." Answer: Correct. "Pit bulls have been bred to fight, not kill." Answer: Fighting each other results in death plenty. Fighting leads to death a lot of the time especially in the pit where the dogs will keep scratching until one of them either gives or dies. Apparently snoopy, you have never heard the of the term "Dead Game" have you? What do you think that means? Fight 2 "Dead Game" Pitbulls and 1 will be dead after it's finished.. possibly even both. Therefore your "fact" snoopy is incorrect. "Pit bulls do not know to imediatly go for the throat for a kill, wolves do, and do it all the time." Answer: Wolves do, correct. I've seen MANY Pitbulls go immediately for the throat.. first lunge and first bite. They will then hold on and shake so violently that the animal will either be seriously injured after it lets go (assuming that it lets go.. doubt it though) or the animal will be dead. One of my Pitbulls goes for the throat always and only. He will not go for anything else unless he absolutely can't get a throat hold. My other one will hunt for legs.. hindquarters.. chest face, head, whatever she can grab and shake. As Jerry mentioned the shaking would render the wolf helpless in getting a killing bite on the neck. The wolf would be very hardpressed to be able to do anything at all for that matter. "Wolves also have stronger jaws. They are faster." Answer: Your sources for these? You have yet to prove either of these in the wolf's favor. Wolve's aren't bulldogs... you keep forgetting this. They weren't made by man and perfected by man to be such tough animals... to be such fighters and to have such courage, power, and yes... "bite". Jaw strength.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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"Killing a pit would be easy compared to killing a moose or bison.It would only take one wolf and wouldn't last long." 1 wolf killing a large healthy bison by it's self? I'd like to see credible proof of this and pictures of this. Taking 1 wolf to kill a Pitbull... well, we can only hope b/c we all know how wolves try to accomplish their kills in packs. They believe in total teamwork. Pitbulls have never needed this. They can single-handedly kill animals. Snoopy, how would you explain the 2 American Pitbulls that killed 19 animals at that Florida Zoo that I posted about? "A wolf could and would grab a pits head like that and shake it in the same way." Nope. Wolve's necks aren't as muscularly developed nor are it's hindquarters and chest for shaking violently. Most wolves are too slim, long and lenky for powerful continuous shaking. Besides.. it's not in their instinct to do so.. once again, they were not bred by man (like Pitbulls) to do this.. and mother nature hasn't told them to do this either. They go for the neck with killing bites. Not for the head to shake like a rag doll because "they want to". Don't get your animals confused now. We all know that you wish your wolves could be as great of fighters as Pitbulls. There are hunters and there are straight up natural born fighters like Pitbulls. Many Pitbulls happen to have "killing instinct". It stems from their fighting heritage and genetics derived from this.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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Grunt, If you look back through the posts you'll see that I have already proved to everyone on this site, Firelier is full of shot. I gave them all info on a real test that a friend and I did on a calibrated bearing press, accurate down to the 10 thousandth of a pound. They won�t even address it. Simply because the have all the way been telling how a wolf can "CRUSH" a Moose femur in half one bite. No wolf has killed anyone for at least 100 years. Most were a good way to hide a murder. Anyway this guy is full of it, just go back and read my posts. Just in the last few posts he contradicts himself and you can tell that he is just getting off on this. It�s funny that Snoopy is using that info to prove how strong a wolfs bite is. That just shows how false the LIE is that an 85lbs. wolf can "CRUSH" through an adult Moose femur in one bite. See I live up here with these animals. Firelier is just another flatlander that "Possibly" went on some GUIDED hunts. He also told me that he consistently goes to the forest (8K-15k) from Louisiana and just hops out and starts tracking wolves for fun. He stated that he spots them and just follows. Now think about it, us highlanders know that you just don't go do that. You�ll be in need some equipment like Pack mules, horses, on and on and on. That�s if you go on horse back, it's hard enough to keep up on a horse. First he says that he would never own one and then says that he owns two. Everything that he "Cuts and Pastes" is also someone else�s opinion aka "HEARSAY". Interesting that he has never even been around the animals, however we that live among them know nothing. He also told me that Colorado was "Flat and Brown". That�s not to mention all of the times they (firedragon, neal, snoopy) stated or quoted TV shows. Thought you would get a kick out of that. HE REALLY BELIEVES HIS OWN CRAP!!!!!!! I'LL put everything on the next post. Grunt all he can do about this is "hurl insults" like a little girl. Second he will tell you about a lying site that states that there are thousand being killed by wolves. However once again NO PROOF just more hearsay from nobody particular on some non-accredited website. I spent a lot of time in Germany and Europe as a whole and I never heard of this. So, if you come upon wolf/wolves why would anyone in the right mind be afraid? NO WOLF/WOLVES HAS EVER KILLED OR EVEN ATTACKED ANYONE IN THE WILD FOR AT LEAST 150 YEARS. IF THE WOLF ENCOUNTERS ANYTHING, INCLUDING DOGS, WITH HUMAN SCENT ON IT THEY FLEE, RUNAWAY, HALL ASS, BLAZE TRAIL, CHECK OUT, HIDE UNDER A ROCK. A TIGER, BROWN BEAR, LION, CROCODILE AND ESPECIALLY THE HIPPO AND POLAR BEAR WILL NOT HESITATE TO HUNT, EAT, KILL OR ATTACK A HUMAN. THE HIPPO AND POLAR BEAR WILL ACTUALLY TARGET HUMANS. GET IT WE'RE ON THE MENU. NO WOLF HAS EVER DONE THIS THAT WE KNOW OF. IF THERE HAD BEEN EVEN ONE DEATH OR AN ATTACK THERE WOULD BE TON'S OF COVERAGE AND SIMPLY BECAUSE IT HAS NOT HAPPENED ANYWHERE IN THE LAST 150 YEARS. THE WOLF WILL NOT EVEN FEED ON HUMAN REMAINS; EVEN A COYOTE WILL DO THAT. YOU ARE JUST FEEDING EVERYONE THE SAME PRE WW2 HYSTERIA THE SAME HYSTERIA THAT ALMOST DROVE THE WOLF TO EXTINCTION. YOU ARE THE SAME IDIOT THAT WOULD HUNT THEM OUT OF RUMOR AND FEAR. EVEN THE LOWLY PIT BULL WOULD BE MORE THAN MOST WOLVES COULD HANDLE ALONE. MOST OTHER REAL PREDATORS WOULD DESTROY A PIT BULL NOT TO MENTION WHAT THEY (TIGER, HIPPO, AND LION) WOULD DO TO A WOLF! AND THEY ARE NOT THE TOP OF THE CHAIN THE POLAR BEAR IS. IN THE WILD A WOLF GIVE A POLAR BEAR A WIDE PATH BECAUSE A POLAR BEAR WOULD DESTROY AN ENTIRE PACK OF WOLVES WITHOUT INJURY. NOW IF A WOLF HAD THE CAPABILITY THAT YOU SAY THEY HAVE THEN THEY WOULD BE IN THIS LIST, THEY ARE NOT THEY HAVEN'T THE SIZE, STRENGTH, OR ABILITY OF EVEN A MT. LION. WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE NEXT LEVEL OF PREDATORS THAT SHARE THE SAME TERRITORY AS SOME WOLVES? IF THE WOLF WAS OF THE DIMENSION THAT YOU SAY THEY ARE THEN THEY WOULD WEIGH APPROXIMATELY 300-500LBS. LIKE THE MT. LION OR BLACK BEAR. AND THEY DON'T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THAT SIZE. BE REALISTIC A WOLF REALLY ISN'T THAT TOUGH IF THEY WERE TO ATTEMPT TO EVEN TAKE ON A MOUNTAIN LION ALSO KNOWN AS A COUGAR, THEY (WOLF) WOULD BE DESTROYED AND CONSUMED. I WOULD NEVER EXPECT A FLATLANDER TO EVEN THINK ABOUT THE MT. LION. WE DO, WE KNOW WHERE THE DANGERS ARE. THAT'S HOW I KNOW YOU'RE FULL OF CRAP. THE AVERAGE WOLF IS BETWEEN 65-90LBS. THEY ARE NOT BIG ENOUGH TO DO THE THINGS YOU SAY THAT THEY CAN. IF YOU LIVED AROUND HERE YOU'D KNOW THAT, IT'S WHAT WE CALL COMMON SINCE. OH AND BY THE WAY WE ALL KNOW YOU DON'T JUST COME UP HERE AND TRACK WOLVES. A LITTLE THING CALLED ALTITUDE SICKNESS, FLATLANDER CAN'T MAKE IT HERE. SEE FLATLANDERS DON'T THINK ABOUT THESE LITTLE THINGS, WE SEE IT HAPPENING ALL THE TIME. IF YOU HAD DONE THESE THINGS, YOU'D KNOW "THESE THINGS." WE SEE PEOPLE LIKE YOU EVERYDAY DRIVING DOWN THE INTERSTATE "READING AND WATCHING T.V." ABOUT WOLVES. SOMEONE LIKE YOU WHO SAYS THAT YOU'VE JUST, COME UP HERE FROM LOUISIANA AND TRACKED WOLVES WOULDN'T MAKE IT A DAY. IF YOU SURVIVED THE ALTITUDE THE BEARS WOULD GET YOU. IF YOU HAPPENED TO SURVIVE THAT, THEN YOU WOULD GET LOST IN THE ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AND MEADOWS THAT LOOK THE SAME. IF YOU MADE IT THAT FAR THEN, WELL NEVER MIND YOU WOULDN'T. PEOPLE LIKE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU�RE UP AGAINST; YOU COMMONLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT SNOW FLIES 11 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR HERE. YOU DON'T JUST GO TRACK A WOLF WITHOUT THE PROPER EQUIPMENT, PERSONNEL AND TIME. THE WRONG DECISION WILL COST YOU YOUR LIFE. IF YOU HAVE TO CUT AND PASTE OUR INFO AND RELY ON THE INTERNET, T.V. AND OTHERS HERE YOU'LL DIE, QUICK. YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF IN A 10 FOOT SNOW STORM IN THREE HOURS THAT WASN'T PREDICTED BY THE WEATHERMAN ON T.V. OR THE INTERNET. WE ALL KNOW THAT IS ALL YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THAT�S ALL YOU DO FOR YOUR INFO. YOU SEE, FIREDRAGON, WE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF A SET OF SNOWSHOES OR A HAT. WITHOUT EITHER HERE YOU COULD VERY EASILY DIE, BUT YOU WOULDN'T REALLY KNOW THAT THOUGH WOULD YOU Just ignore butthead, maybe fireLIER will go away

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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I doug smith said wolves, not a wolf. If an pitbulls tried this they would be killed by the bison because they A.They don't have long enough teeth B.They're not fast enough C. They don't have strong enough jaws. Anyway, I have already showed you that a wolf goes for the throat every time. A wolf is faster than a pit, smarter than a pit, bigger teeth stronger jaws. This is proven that wolves have stronger jaws. Their skull structure is better than a pitbulls. They have a bigger muscle there. Wolves kill things every day, pitbulls do not. A pit bull could not crush abull knuckle. A wolf did. Pits bull don't cause severe bleeding with one bite. I watched a show last night on the national geographic channel and a wolf killed 23 sheep plus a dog. Now get a clue and read all my posts.

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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look in ANY DOG MAGAZINE,THAT HAS DOGS FOR SALE.THE PIT BULLS NOW ARE UP TO 120LBS. THIS FREAKDRAGON WHATS TO SAY THE PIT BULL IS JUST A LITTLE DOG.HA HA LOSER!THE PIT BULL HAS ALWAYS VARIED IN SIZE GREATLY.BUT YOU KNOW WHAT FIREIDIOT?THAT REALLY DOES NOT MATTER.I HAVE A LITTLE 55LBS GAME BRED PIT THAT WILL EAT A BIGGER NON-PIT UP!YOU SEE THE BLOODLINE OF THIS DOG IS FIRST RATE.THE DOG IS A MONEY MAKER BECAUSE HES TALL AND LEAN,DOES NOT LOOK LIKE HE WOULD DO IT.BUT LET ME TELL YOU THIS DOG IS A FLAT BUZZSAW!WHEN HE FIGHTS HIS EYES GO BACK IN HIS HEAD,TURN BLOOD-SHOT,GETS HIS GRIP AND USES HIS ENTIRE BODY TO RIP THE OTHER DOG/WOLVESSTUFFING OUT.I WILL TELL YOU FOOL,THIS DOG DOES NOT QUIT.AND FAST VERY QUICK WITH HIS ENTIRE BODY.SEE YOU ARE A BOZO THAT THINKS YOUR SMART.YOU KNOW NOTHING OF PIT BULLS.YOUR STATEMENTS PROVE THAT OVER AND OVER.MROMERO HAS NAMED YOU RIGHT-FIRE LIER THATS WHAT YOU ARE,GRUNT THIS IDIOT EVEN CLAIMED HE COULD BREAK LOCKED PIT BULLS BAREHANDED.SAID HE HAS DONE IT MANY TIMES!YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THAT CANNOT BE DONE.JUST PROVES HOW STUPID HE THINKS WE ALL ARE!ITS POSTED ALL RIGHT-I GO BACK AND READ HIS OLD POSTS.WHAT A IDIOT LIAR!HE HAS BEEN ON HERE LONGER THAN ANYONE,ON THE 15TH OF THIS MONTH IT WILL BE THREE MONTHS FOR HIS BULL.SHOWS HOW STUPID HIS LIFE MUST BE.THE LIE I REALLY LIKE WAS WHEN HE CLAIMS TO HAVE AFRICAN WILD DOGS FOR HUNTING DOGS!you know that those wild dogs of AFRICA ARE NOT EVEN THE STATES OUTSIDE OF ZOOS.I CAN'T REMEMBER EVEN SEEING THEM AT THE ZOO!BUT THIS FOOL HUNTS BEAR WITH THEM!GO BACK AND READ IT,ITS A EARLY MORON POST.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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What the fck do you mean a wolf doesn't have a strong neck? You must have a very low iq or something. Are you daft? Read up on wolves dumbass because I'm getting really tired of idiots like you! They do ahve really strong necks, they have to jackass! How did the cinderella wolf of the druid pack take down a full grown caribou by herself, with a weak neck? I mean she just fking grounded that huge animal then went and grabed it by the throat and killed it. All by herself she took it down. I saw it with my own two eyes. Go rent the video you lowlife idiot! Did you see what short work wolves make of dogs? The kill them in less than a minute, more than one at a time even. Go read the posts. No person educated about animals would listen to you.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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"All other dog attack fatalities in which the dog can be clearly identified as to breed have numbered just six: two caused by German Shepherds, one each by Akitas, chows, Dobermans, and mastiffs. In short, the relatively minuscule populations of wolf hybrids, pit bulls, and Rottweilers are each more dangerous in terms of the severity of the attacks than all wild canines plus all other breeds of dog combined. Together, since 1982, wolf hybrids, pit bulls, and Rottweilers have together accounted for 85 percent of all near-fatal attacks by canines in the U.S.; 85 percent of all actual dog attack fatalities; 79 percent of fatal and near-fatal attacks on children; and 91 percent of fatal and near-fatal attacks on adults." "That wolf hybrids have never killed an adult in the U.S. doesn't mitigate the risk they pose. In fact, wolf hybrids account for close to 20 percent of all the fatal attacks on children, posing an interesting behavioral contrast to pit bulls, which as well as accounting for about 40 percent of the killings and near-fatal maulings of children, also account for 60 percent of all the killings and near-fatal maulings of adults." "The difference in pit bull and wolf hybrid attack patterns is the difference between a breed created by humans to be hyper-aggressive and unusually strong, and a breed created by nature to feed itself, then removed from nature by human intervention." http://www.api4animals.org/1109.htm Most of these wolf hybrid fatalities are from children 1 1/2 years old to 5 year children. Interesting article.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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The wolf is basically a shy animal, instilled with a fierce need to fit into a pack hierarchy and depending on nuances in body language and facial expression and on hunting skill to survive. A stare is considered a direct challenge and can bring an attack if the animal cannot flee. Wolf jaws are much stronger than those of a dog and are often used to exert dominance. I have seen a pictures of a wolf with his mouth gripped on another wolfs entire back. If you think your pit has a chance againts a wolf you better teach him to try and go for the throat, that is his only chance and he better hold on tight. This is not really a good chance seeing as the wolf is much much faster having been dodging hooves all day. To mr grunt. Dogs that lunge at wolves end up with their heads almost bitted all the way off. Go to natureswolves.com and see. Show me some pictures of pit bulls doing this kind of damage.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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LMFAO. Oh brother.. this FireDragons kid HAS TO BE the biggest clown on the internet. My guess... he's probably about 15 (give or take a year), has no job (since he isn't old enough to legally work in the US until he's 16), obviously lives with his "Mommy" and has never owned any kind of dog in his life.. let alone ever even been around a wolf. I'm sure he watched 'White Fang' years ago when he was still a child and got deeply angered when he saw the Pitbull "Cherokee" in that movie grab the wolf by the neck and nearly kill it. Ever since then he took on an almost Native American belief that he had to "protect the wolf" and since then he has been firing off at people that defy it's power and spirituality. God help this imbecile... he's an internet expert and we all know that these kids only take other people's words for sh!t. He's a grade "A" moron and a clear-cut case of an obsessed outcast that feels he "knows it all". I'm no psychologist nor am I a psychiatrist but this kid is too easy to diagnose. As for breaking apart two pitbulls when in holds with his barehands... sure.. I'm sure he only uses his pinky to do it too. I guess he doesn't know what a breaking/parting stick is.. or why it even exists. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark guess and assume that it's required for such a feat 95% of the time. You can kick and beat the dogs to a bloody pulp and some of them still won't let go. This kid must be the next "Tough Man" contender or perhaps the next "World's Strongest Man" contender. He has to be. Maybe when he becomes an adult finally (if that ever happens?) he can enter and get his head knocked off by ButterBean. I'll be the only guy in the audience laughing my @ss off when he's down for the count (hopefully after '10' he won't wake up).

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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Wolf Anatomy Long skull The typical carnivore skull is long, housing extensive and strong cheek muscles, necessary for holding onto prey, killing and consuming. Large brain capacity Skull capacity allows space for an advanced cerebral cortex (brain) necessary for coordinating group social activity. Excelent hearing Deep within the ears, the skull has evolved to house large cavities for enhanced hearing. With their large, pointed ears, the wolf is able to hear very faint sounds made by prey from a considerable distance - the equivalent of being able to hear a watch ticking 10m (33ft) away or a snapping twig 3km (2 miles) away. They also hear a much wider range of pitch than humans do. Unique teeth Large canine teeth, developed to catch and hold prey, can be up to 5cm (2in) long. The lower molars and upper premolars are adapted for shearing and cutting through flesh (these specialised teeth are called 'carnassials'). They have a set of 42 teeth made up of 6 incisers, 2 canines, 8 premolars and 6 molars (in the lower jaw. the upper jaw has 2 less molars). Powerful face muscles hold teeth locked together and help wolf hang on to it's prey. Sense of smell The wolf relies heavily on it's sense of smell for tracking prey, and recognising other wolves and their territory. A wolf can regocnise hundreds of thousands of smells which humans cannot even detect or distinguish. It can smell a moose from 2km (1.5 miles) away. It "reads" scents to obtain information on the type, condition and movements of the animal it is tracking and remembers and recognises the smells and scents of landmarks, to build a 'mental map' of the terrain. Scent marking Social communication is important for species that hunt communally. All canines have a scent-marking gland on the dorsal (back) surface of the tail. The gland leaves scent wherever the tail brushes. Visual communication All canines have a sophisticated repertoire of body language through which they communicate with each other. For example, the tail's position and the state of its hair send explicit messages. Streamlined shape The wolf is built for speed as it travels in pursuit of prey, often under cover through dense woodland and undergrowth. Towards this end it has a pointed muzzle, head and ears; narrow chest; long, slim legs; smooth fur; slender, tapering body; and long, pointed tail. Sturdy limbs The wolf's limbs are long, with four toes on the hindfoot and five on the forefoot. The claws, which are used for digging when burrying food, are large and do not retract like a cat's. They are clearly visible in the wolf's footprints. In order to capture prey, the wolf needs stability. This is provided by soft pads, close toes and non-retracting claws.The hind legs provide bursts of power and endurance. The joints are flexible, allowing the wolf to jump reasonably well. Walking and running Wolves walk with a trotting pace, and leave a single line of pawprints. Other wolves walk along the leader's tracks in single file. Wolves are good runners, and with their great stamina can keep up their loping style of running over long distances, managing speeds of up to 45km/h (28mph) in short bursts. Skeleton The skeleton of the wolf is well adapted to its lifestyle. The bones need to be strong, for power in bringing down large prey such as caribou or moose. The narrow collarbones, interlocked foreleg bones and specially adapted wrist-bones give the wolf streamlining, strength and speed. The radius and ulna bones are "locked" in position. This inability to rotate the forelimbs gives superb stability when running. The wrist bones of the wolf are fused together for extra strength. When closed, the toes are ruggged and strong. Splaying the toes allows the wolf to grip on to slippery, uneven and steep surfaces. Insulation and protection Soft, thick underfur keeps the wolf warm and dry, and long, coars, "guard" hairs keep snow and water out. Pale underparts, blotchy darker markings on the body, ears and tail, and colour to match habitat, give the wolf camoflage as it moves up on it's prey. If you had read all my posts you would already know this. I can't believe you put that six year old kid thing on there, I have already seen that. You forgot to mention the dog and other kid. The wolf was most likely after the dog. The kid started to run and the wolf chased him. He chased him because thats what wolves do(chase). The wolf could have killed the kid but chose not to. He probably thought about what would happen to him later. I believe he was right. Wasn't the wolf killed. It is really stupid to think a wolf could not kill a child. That only proved to me how dumb you are. IDIOT!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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Canine Timeline 1 Million BC The gray wolf family becomes the world's largest canine group. 100,000 BC Gray wolves and subspecies are spread across Asia, the Middle East, Europe and America. Man begins selecting wolves for puppy characteristics as camp pets. 20,000 BC Stone Age man breeds dogs for his own purposes. Oldest evidence is a 14,000 year old jaw with teeth of modern dog configuration found in Iraq. 7,000 BC Egyptians develop dogs from their region, Tibet & China. 4500 BC Fossils of the period are of pointer types, mastiffs, greyhounds, shepherds and the wolf like spitz. 3500 BC Basic dog types reach Europe. 3,000 BC Prototype pointer skeleton found in England exhibits evidence of greyhound and mastiff characteristics. Modern hunting dogs will evolve from these prototypes called Canis familiaris intermedius. 2,000 BC As the Neolithic period ends, most basic breeds are established. 23 - 79 AD The Roman Pliny writes about hunters carrying dogs that stiffen and point their noses at game concealed in undergrowth. 100 - 1500 Though there are few breeds in any one region, breeds and strains number into the thousands worldwide. 1800 - 1900 Distinctive breed separations and refinements advance rapidly through kennel clubs and knowledge of scientific animal breeding. About 400 breeds exist today. 1991 Tippy, editor of Happy & Healthy Pets and The Peppy Pets Daily was born. You guys can keep talking but it's all crap! Nothing you say means anything and in most cases you give faulty information about wolves that you make up (mr grunt) IDIOTS

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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With the reintroduction of gray wolves (Canis lupus) to Yellowstone National Park (YNP), much interest has been shown regarding the effects of a restored wolf population on both grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis) and black bears (Ursus americanus). Grizzly bears, black bears, and gray wolves have historically coexisted in much of the same range throughout a large portion of North America (Brown 1993). Most interactions between the three species involve food sources and are usually characterized by mutual avoidance (Servheen and Knight 1990). The behavior of bears and wolves during interactions with each other are dependent upon many variables such as age, sex and reproductive status, prey availability, hunger and aggressiveness, numbers of animals, and previous experience in interacting with the other species (Servheen and Knight 1990). Most serious interactions between the species occur around wolf dens (Peterson et al. 1984). A wolf pack in Alaska was observed keeping a sow brown bear with yearlings at bay and eventually driving them away from the den site. The same pack was also observed driving a large, male brown bear away from the den site (Mech 1981). These bears were attracted by a recent wolf kill and ventured too close to the wolf den. From 1966 to 1974, Haber (1987) recorded 36 wolf-brown bear interactions in wolf pack territories in Denali National Park. Of the 36 interactions, 19 took place at ungulate carcasses in which wolves "won" 9 of the 19. Seventeen of the interactions were not at carcasses. In those cases, wolves harassed the bears or tried to take cubs, and the bears retreated. Steve Fritts (U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service) collected 70 unpublished accounts of bear-wolf interactions (Servheen and Knight 1990). The results showed no negative trends for wolves or bears due to these interactions. Few instances of direct mortality to either species have been documented. Instances of wolves killing bears and bears killing wolves have been reported, but such events are rare and considered the exception. According to Mech (1981), wolves sometimes kill bears, but likely only young, old, or otherwise weakened bears. Paquet and Carbyn (1986) reported three cases of wolves digging up and killing cubs of hibernating black bears in Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba, Canada but thought it was not a common occurrence as over 2000 wolf scats in the area did not contain any evidence of bear remains. Bears will also occasionally kill wolves as Joslin (1966), and Pimlott et al. (1969) reported in Ontario, Canada. In both instances, black bears were responsible for the deaths of individual wolves. According to Joslin (1966), a black bear killed a female wolf protecting her pups at a den site. In general, most reported interactions are stand-offs with serious confrontations taking place in defense of food or young.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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I hope you're all reading! With the reintroduction of gray wolves (Canis lupus) to Yellowstone National Park (YNP), much interest has been shown regarding the effects of a restored wolf population on both grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis) and black bears (Ursus americanus). Grizzly bears, black bears, and gray wolves have historically coexisted in much of the same range throughout a large portion of North America (Brown 1993). Most interactions between the three species involve food sources and are usually characterized by mutual avoidance (Servheen and Knight 1990). The behavior of bears and wolves during interactions with each other are dependent upon many variables such as age, sex and reproductive status, prey availability, hunger and aggressiveness, numbers of animals, and previous experience in interacting with the other species (Servheen and Knight 1990). Most serious interactions between the species occur around wolf dens (Peterson et al. 1984). A wolf pack in Alaska was observed keeping a sow brown bear with yearlings at bay and eventually driving them away from the den site. The same pack was also observed driving a large, male brown bear away from the den site (Mech 1981). These bears were attracted by a recent wolf kill and ventured too close to the wolf den. From 1966 to 1974, Haber (1987) recorded 36 wolf-brown bear interactions in wolf pack territories in Denali National Park. Of the 36 interactions, 19 took place at ungulate carcasses in which wolves "won" 9 of the 19. Seventeen of the interactions were not at carcasses. In those cases, wolves harassed the bears or tried to take cubs, and the bears retreated. Steve Fritts (U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service) collected 70 unpublished accounts of bear-wolf interactions (Servheen and Knight 1990). The results showed no negative trends for wolves or bears due to these interactions. Few instances of direct mortality to either species have been documented. Instances of wolves killing bears and bears killing wolves have been reported, but such events are rare and considered the exception. According to Mech (1981), wolves sometimes kill bears, but likely only young, old, or otherwise weakened bears. Paquet and Carbyn (1986) reported three cases of wolves digging up and killing cubs of hibernating black bears in Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba, Canada but thought it was not a common occurrence as over 2000 wolf scats in the area did not contain any evidence of bear remains. Bears will also occasionally kill wolves as Joslin (1966), and Pimlott et al. (1969) reported in Ontario, Canada. In both instances, black bears were responsible for the deaths of individual wolves. According to Joslin (1966), a black bear killed a female wolf protecting her pups at a den site. In general, most reported interactions are stand-offs with serious confrontations taking place in defense of food or young.

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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snoopy or whoever,the wolf bites his prey where he can.see i watch those same nature shows,as well as the real thing.read the same books you do.but i do not GET THAT THE WOLF ALWAYS GOES FOR THE THROAT!MAYBE ON A SMALL ANIMAL,THEY WOULD.BUT ON A BISON,OR ANY LARGE PREY,TRHEY BITE THE DAMN THING WHERE THE CAN.OVER AND OVER.ALWAYS GOING FOR THE THROAT ON SOMETHING LIKE A MOOSE WOULD GET THE WOLVES KILLED.IT TAKES A PACK OF WOLVES SOMETIMES DAYS TO MAKE A KILL.THEY RUSH IN AND TEAR AT THE RUMP,NOSE AND LEGS.IT ADDS UP.ITS NOT OVER QUICKLY.WOLVES DO DIE WHEN KILLING LARGE HOOFED ANIMALS.THAT IS RECORDED IN MANY WOLF BOOKS.A MOOSE HOOF TO THE CHEST,OR HEAD IS OFTEN FATAL.THERE IS MOOSE THAT COME INTO TOWNS IN ALASKA.RIGHT UP IN PEOPLES YARDS.SOME PEOPLE HAVE PIT BULLS FOR PETS AND THEY ATTACK THE MOOSE IN THEIR YARDS.THE DOGS RIP THE HELL OUT OF THEM CAUSING THE FISH AND GAME GUYS TO DESTROY THE MOOSE.AND NO THERES NOTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT THE DOGS IF THE MOOSE IS IN YOUR YARD.BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN A PIT GET HURT FIGHTING THESE MOOSE.THE PIT IS A HARD TO HURT DOG.PLUS THEY HAVE A KNACK FOR AVOIDING THE MOOSE HOOVES.THEY ARE MUCH MORE THAN YOU PEOPLE THINK.NO I HAVE NOT SEEN THEM KILL THE MOOSE AS THE OWNER WILL GET THEM OFF.BUT THE MOOSE HAVE HAD TO BE DESTROYED.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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I have seen plenty of wolves and have gotten within a few feet in zoos. i would say that they are intimidating but there head is only longer, not broader than a pitbull. while the longer muzzle would help them breath in a hold, the narrower width doesn't show a more powerful bite then a pit.A wolf is with out a doubt a killer, and he proves it, but he lacks the will and determination to take down a pit.once he found out he was in a fight for his life, he would cease to fight for his own safety, this is when the pit would be relentless in showing the wolf who is boss.also all dogs originated from the wolf, so the pitbull also has millions of years of evolution along with hundreds of years of human intervention to eliminate certain things and perfect others.with just a few generations of selective breeding we can greatly alter qualities and that takes less then a decade, now imagine what we could do over centuries with selective breeding. there is no doubt we could create an animal far better at combat then the original species of canine we started with.that is EXACTLY what man has done.we took this great predator (the wolf) and bred out the survival instinct to flee when in danger and replaced it with something that puts the dog into a "frenzy" that gives it the will power to say "i refuse to lose no matter the consequences" then we equipped that attitude with an extremely agile yet powerful body.To say the "original prototype" could take the "new and improved model" would not be very realistic, not to mention that would mean that hundreds of years of dedicated work to improve the wolf for combat only sent it backwards in evolution, but we know thats not true, so the only alternative is that we turned the wolf into the combat perfected wolf(the pitbull).

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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Stupid dudes. These are the facts. Presa Canarios are used to disable pits..they go through pits like poop through a wet goose. NO PIT BULL HAS EVER KILLED A healthy ADULT in North America!!! "(RT 4622-4623.) When asked if she knew Presas were a dangerous, aggressive, and violent breed, Knoller acknowledged that Presas �have a history of being a war dog and a fighting dog.� (RT 4828, 4938.) Knoller was aware that Schneider and Bretches sent Noel a copy of a book called Manstopper, and a newsletter called �Gripper.� (RT 4824-4827.) The �Gripper� newsletter discussed the police department�s use of Presa Canarios to disable pit bulls. (RT 4827.) http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/sfdogattack/caknoller41103cabrf.pdf The Presa Canario, as mentioned by someone else on this forum, can easily kill a pit bull. When dog fighting convicts in gangs wanted to breed "killer dogs" that would act as murder weapons to kill people, they chose the Presa Canario. The government recognizes as fact that the Presa Canario is tougher than a pit... Defendant Knoller�s Reply In Support Of Motion For A New Trial 1 DENNIS P. RIORDAN, State Bar No. 69320 DONALD M. HORGAN, State Bar No. 121547 523 Octavia Street San Francisco, CA 94102 Telephone: (415) 431-3472 DYLAN L. SCHAFFER, State Bar No. 153612 686 Jean Street Oakland, CA 94610 Telephone: (510) 547-5860 Attorneys for Defendant MARJORIE KNOLLER IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, Plaintiff, -vs- MARJORIE KNOLLER AND ROBERT NOEL, Defendants. ))))))))))))))) S.C. No. 181813-01 M.C. No. 1977360 S.C. No. 181813-02 M.C. No. 1977361 DEFENDANT KNOLLER�S REPLY MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL Date: June 7, 2002 Time: 9:00 a.m. Dept.: Before The Hon. James Warren (my notes: although pits have killed people and accounted for the majority of the deaths (before being banned in most municipalities) in 1987 and 1988, they could not kill healthy adults!!!!) From the court case: 3. The prosecution does not contest that the only evidence bearing on the issue of dog fatalities came from Doctor Lockwood, the prosecution�s expert, one of the country�s leading authorities on the epidemiology of fatal dog bites, which he has studied since 1972. (RT 5152) Lockwood testified that in the more than 300 dog-caused fatalities that he had studied over that period, there never had been a case, as here, �of a healthy adult young woman who has been killed The state argues in its response that �Defendant Knoller herself admitted that she knew that this breed of dog was meaner than a pit bull.� (Response at 4).

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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The big gag is that wild animals, espcially large predators, must be near game in order to survive. Populated areas have less game and therefore predators have no business being there...unless humans have become their prey. MOST packs are the mom and dad, plus pups. Few packs have more than two mature adults. So, when you read about a pack, it's basically one or two adults and the pups. Read about pit bulls, and you might have three game pit trained pits fight a single dog...for example the three pit fighters that attacked the collie/shep mix. All three had their butts kicked. The larger pits are not from the same "blood" and actually, NO pit today was from the original pit fighers. Pit bulls are small and can't go for an adult human throat such as a larger dog...a doberman or shep. ALL PITS are around humans. They can't survive in the wild on their own. Therefore, they have more opporutnity to attack humans and they do...but they have never killed a healthy adult. Not even a woman. Wolves are in the wild and never or rarely around humans because populated areas do not have game.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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FireDragon's wrote: "What the fck do you mean a wolf doesn't have a strong neck? You must have a very low iq or something. Are you daft? Read up on wolves dumbass because I'm getting really tired of idiots like you! They do ahve really strong necks, they have to jackass!" Earlier, I said: Nope. Wolve's necks aren't as muscularly developed nor are it's hindquarters and chest for shaking violently. So those puny little slim necks covered with a double-coat of fur are supposed to impress me? They aren't as muscularly developed.. that's right. Why are Pitbull's necks more muscularly developed? Think about it you sap... bear baiting, bull baiting, fighting each other in the pit all have serious strain on their necks. THEY HAVE TO BE COMPLETELY MUSCLED. Without super strong necks they wouldn't be able to cork screw their bodies to take a 1500lb.+ bear (bear baiting) to the ground in mid-step! When they have hold of the animal's nose.. they do this. When they hang on tires and ropes for an hour high off the ground shaking as violently as they can on a spring pole etc. they require strong necks. Wolves do not require neck strength of this caliber. This is exactly why they DO NOT possess it. They generally accomplish kills in packs. This is why they are not fitted from head to toe as the ultimate combatants. Enough with your BS. Wolves are built ONLY as runners... once again. Not as totally muscled combatants.. extremely muscled from head to toe like Pitbulls and other BULLDOG breeds. Go cry to your wolf.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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"Wolves are SHAPED FOR RUNNING. Such adaptations that help them do this are their DEEP, NARROW CHEST and their LONG, NARROW LEGS THAT HOLD TIGHT TOGETHER, ALMOST PRESSED INTO THEIR CHEST. Wolves have a LONG, NARROW SKULL. Their four canine, or eye teeth, can be 1.5 inches (3.8 cm) long, enabling them to pierce the tough hide of their prey. Their incisors, the teeth in the very front of their mouth, are VERY SMALL and used for grasping objects from the front of the mouth. They often watch a herd and look for WEAK, OLD, SICK, OR YOUNG ANIMALS. Wolves are usually not successful; only one in twenty hunting attempts end up successfully. Smaller prey, such as rabbits, mice, and voles, is taken individually, and are killed by severing the backbone. There has also been controversy about wolves attacking and killing livestock. Wolves do rarely kill and eat livestock, and when they do it is because their natural prey populations have disappeared, or become rare. They see livestock as an easy food source because humans have bred livestock animals like sheep to be genetically weak, and wolves eat weak animals. Wolves, however, account for less than 1% of all livestock deaths; most deaths are caused by disease. Most of the attacks on livestock are caused by packs of feral dogs or coyotes rather than wolves. They have a strict hierarchy system that keeps everyone well behaved, determines feeding order, and prevents fights from becoming fatal: if a wolf knows someone else is superior to him/her, they will rarely fight them. In the event that the wolves actually fight, it is usually resolved by simply posturing. But in the event of a real fight, such as a fight for a rank, the fight can be serious and not resolved by posturing. The wolves will try to push each other to the ground, they will bare their teeth, snarl and make a lot of noise. Usually, one will give up, and no one will get hurt. However, sometimes injuries do occur, and it is when a wolf refuses to give up the fight, and gets mauled by the higher ranking wolf." Do I need to spell more out for you idiot? This has "WEAK" written all over it!! http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=35&page=2

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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Yes, but seven pits failed to even kill an elderly woman and the teenage girl beat them away.And the Presa is used to immobilize the pit bull EASILY. So, use what logic you can, the Presa easily beats a pit!!! As for prying to pits apart, it's easy. You straddle their hindquarters with your legs and press very tight against their hind quarters ..... they generally let go then...you grab then at the same time with your hand at the nape of their neck and lift, while pressing your fingers into their mouths behind the molars...they release quickly. The stick is used the same way except it's twisted. People that can't break pits apart are weak. Haha! Jerry, you are an idiot. Loser! It's a fact. The collie/shep mix kicked all three asses. These dogs were pit fighters. Didn't do them any good. Some of you are Star Trek fools. You think these dogs are "trained" to fight, but they are just conditioned. That's it and they are basically stupid. As they are bred to be bigger, they will become stronger. They are just a cheap dog and low lifes such as you believe everything you read! Hey, that stupid person that trusted only the pit sites ... and said Helen Keller owned a pit? Hahah! Loser! The other people cited also did not own a pit, except for Spanky....

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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haha! Mr. Grunt says, "Do I need to spell more out for you idiot? This has "WEAK" written all over it!! http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=35&page=2" Yea, yea...it also says, "Wolves in the northern most parts of their range are larger than wolves farther south. Arctic wolves can be up to 175 lb." Narrow or not, that wolf is bigger than any pit and a wolf is much stronger than any wolf even of its own size. Wolves "can travel 40-70 miles in one day." The pit is lucky if their training is ten miles in a day and they become winded when they are taken even ten miles! The article was actually written in 1996, long before wolves had become infested upon several states. The tally for livestock kill now is in the millions of dollars. They are so bad in Alaska, they are allowing shooting from the air. We have posted the livestock lost. States kieep records. The amount accounted by official records in roughly 10 percent of the actual loses...that's why rancers UNANAMOUSLY want wolves hunted and killed. Maybe not all wolves, but many of them. You can make things up and interpret it as you would, but the fact is that the wolf bites MUCH harder than any dog and ...if you weren't such a punk ... the livestock is healthy. Ranchers put sick animals in barns or close to the ranch house in corrals. Grunt, I didn't say anything about the necks. You are stupid and I don't use obscene language, even to a loser such as yourself! The pit bull was NEVER used to bull bait or bear bait. They don't have to be strong, just cheap and entertaining. They get killed and are replaced. fool!!! Perhaps over the centuries, MILLIONS of Christians were fed to lions...do you think that gave them a big neck !! Haha! Loser, get on with your life!!! Other person says, " i would say that they are intimidating but there head is only longer, not broader than a pitbull. while the longer muzzle would help them breath in a hold, the narrower width doesn't show a more powerful bite then a pit." Dude, get ON WITH YOUR LIFE, LOSER!! haha! The alligator appears to have a long and narrow mouth too, but it can bite harder than any other animal tested!!! It can crush pelvises and giant turtle shells! The scientists all say the wolf have jaws at least twice as strong as the strongest dogs. You seem to make up your own sources and then you use stupid reasoning. A real pit could not even control this horse when it nipped it!! "In lieu of a human entree, it looked as if the dog was willing to settle for an equine appetizer--say, horse lip p�t�. Yeley reports that at one point during the ordeal, the horse flipped its head around wildly in what appeared to be an effort to shake loose the dog that seemed to be hanging from its mouth" ""Actually, the horse handled it pretty well until the dog came up from behind and bit him on the tail," recalls Yeley. "After that, the horse kind of lost it, though. He reared up, threw me off and took off back for the stable. I ended up on the ground, out cold." http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/1995-03-16/news.html FROM A PIT BULL SITE !! "Pit Bulls are supposed to be like 120lbs with huge heads. APBTs don�t usually get over 100lbs. If an APBT is over this weight (and it�s not obese) suspect that it�s been crossed with a larger breed. APBTs also aren�t supposed to have HUGE heads either. Their heads are supposed to be in proportion to the body which a medium sized head that is two thirds the width of the shoulders. People often cross Pit Bulls with Rottweilers, Bulldogs, or Mastiffs to get big heads." "Pit Bulls have locking jaws. Nope. If you look at the anatomy of an APBT�s skull and compare it to the skull of any other breed you�ll see it�s built no differently. If Pit Bulls can lock their jaws then any other breed can do it too and we know that�s not true!" http://pitbulls.angelpaws.com/apbtmyths.php "There are two basic head shapes--a narrow skull with a long face and a wide skull with a short face--plus several intermediate head shapes. Long-faced dogs, such as the German shepherd and the cocker spaniel, may have jaws eight inches long. By contrast, the nose of small-faced dogs, such as the Pekingese and the pug, may be less than an inch from the eyes." http://www.lookd.com/dogs/anatomy.html Does this mean that the pug can bite harder than the German Shepherd? Idiot!! The shepherd bites harder than the pit.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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Pit bulls have some qualities that are good...that's why they are dogs. There is more fidelity among the canine than there is among men. Certainly, dogs are great....do you think that fighting in a pit makes an animal greater? This is nonsense. Only punks think this. Do you think I feel less of myself because I can't kill a bear without a weapon in my hand ... ? Certainly not. We are animals that do not possess tooth and claw, nor the means to combat these lethal weapons. The pit has had its place. Certainly, no in war. There WERE dogs in the war....not pits ... I posted the military site that has the dog memorial. NONE were pit bulls!!!! The Marine mascot was NOT a pit. It was an English Bulldog, chosen because it is ugly. A pit is a great animal if taken proper care. Excercise vigorously. However, in our society, only low lifes own them. You can't get insurance for your home...so renters keep them illegally. They are dangerous around the infirm, children, and the elderly. They require special fences and alarms, such as I have.....they are not much good for work, because they just don't seem to behave and they are too ... obsessed. Have you ever seen one trying to dig something up or playing with a ball? They can be nothing more than pets. I have never seen a succussful legal use for them. But being a pet is all many animals are suitable. I have more than one dog because it's necessary. I also use specialized animals at times, including horses, mudders, and even sled dogs. If I was poor and needed a little dog and I was a low life, a pit would be a way of picking up money...but not fightin Presa Canario or Mastiffs or Tosa. A dead animal is of little use. They can also be used as pets, but not around children. I think the pit breed should survive and am happy there are low lifes that raise them. But they are clouded and the pit today had nothing to do with bull baiting or fighting in England and little to do with fighting in the US as a legal sport. They are being bred to be bigger.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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HEY STEELLLAAAAA Yea, Yea. Loser! THESE 3 PIT TRAINED FIGHTING DOGS got whipped badly, and then (the irony) ... while running away, police shot some. "Police Shoot Pit Bull After It Attacks Other Dog Jun 14, 2004 4:10 pm US/Mountain AURORA, Colo. (News 4) Police in Aurora shot a pit bull on Monday morning after it turned on an officer following an attack on a neighboring dog, News 4 reports. The incident happened Monday morning in the neighborhood of 23rd and Macon when Simon Davis' three pit bulls allegedly attacked Rocky, a Shepherd-Collie mix that was chained to its front porch. Police arrived at Davis' house, and were confronted by the dogs on their return." http://news4colorado.com/crimeaccidentreport/local_story_166144809.html Waller, a teacher at Buffalo Jones Elementary School, said she called the police to report the bite. Though her sweat pants had holes and the bite broke her skin, she said, she didn't need medical attention."

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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why ,why why???did you say the PIT CAN GRIP AND BE PICKED UP BY A BASKET BALL?BECAUSE THE DUMB-ASS SAID THEY CAN'T EVEN CLOSE AROUND A NECK,WITH THEIR MOUTHS THATS WHY.PITS HAVE HUGE HEADS AND JAWS.SOME ARE BIGGER THAN OTHERS.SPEAKING OF BIG MOUTHES.... THIS WHOLE DAM,N PLACE HAS GONE TO HELL!ALL I KNOW IS A WOLF SUCKS AT PIT FIGHTING BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN IT!!!!!THESE OTHER BREEDS DO TOO,BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN IT!!!!!!FIREDRAG IF YOU HAVE PIT BULLS THEY MUST BE THE SORRY ASSED PITS.I WOULD NEVER DEGRADE MY DOGS LIKE THAT!IF YOU BUY THE GOOD DOGS YOU MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING!A CHAMPION PIT DOES NOT SELL FOR 2000 BUCKS.HELL BOY I KNOW WERE ONE IS RIGHT NOW,THATS BEING SOLD FOR 40,OOO DOLLARS!THOW DOWN ON THIS BEAST WITH SOME OTHER BREED BOZO,YOU'LL SING A DIFFERENT TUNE PUNK!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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The infamous locking jaw is a myth. The American Pit Bull Terrier and related breeds are physiologically no different from any other breed of dog. All dogs are from the same species and none have locking jaws. Dr. I Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data." Furthermore, Dr. Brisbin states, "The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier." Wolves have stronger jaws than any domestic dog. What is it going to take to make you realize this? Are the biologists lying? Why would they lie? They have no reason to.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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'A 7-year-old North Las Vegas boy prevented two attacking pitbulls from reaching two of his friends and may have saved his own life with his quick reaction to the attack... [He] had 'the maturity of thought' to protect his throat and belly from the dogs who appeared to be working in unison to try to pick apart the boy's defenses and get at his vital organs.' [Las Vegas Sun - Local News] If it were a wolf, and the wolf wanted to eat or kill the boy he would have grabbed his neck and killed him. The wolf with he six year old boy changed his mind. Wolves know people will kill them, plus animals don't really like the taste of people. We also stink to them. That wolf wanted the dog but the boy ran and triggered his instinct to chase and bite. They boy was very lucky to be alive.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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Wolves are exceptional animals. They do not make good pets, however...they can make a true friend if much planning is made way in advance, and proper research is done by the potential family of the new pup. This takes away the surprises and allows you to know exactly what to do and what to expect from a new wolf pup and a growing wolf. "Snowflake" and "Sampson" "Snowflake" Let me start by saying these animals are definitely not for everyone. They are high maintenance animals, and require a large and extremely secure enclosure. I recommend at least a 30 x 30 ft. area with a very heavy gage fence and the fence being at least 8 ft. tall. You need an electrical wire on the bottom and top perimeter, or you need a top and bottom on the fence. Wolfdogs are escape artists, and can break out very easily. A wolf positively cannot be allowed to roam free unsupervised. Wolves are territorial animals and are used to roaming very large areas as their territories. A wolfdog might roam several miles if left out. Your wolfdog is bound to get into trouble, and can get ran over or shot by a neighbor. Smile for me Jake!! Big Jake trying to help me up. Wolfdogs are very large and powerful animals, and they are intimidating to the average person. Contrary to popular belief, wolves are not aggressive towards humans. And.....since they are not, they do not make a watch dog. They are however, very powerful animals with jaw strength rated close to that of a bear. Several small groups of wolves in the wild have actually been documented attacking and killing Kodiak and Grizzly bears that were trying to steal their kills. These documentations were by people in Alaska and Canada. A wolfdog will bond very close to its new family, as you will bond to your pup. It is important to spend a lot of time with your wolfdog every day. They will love everyone in your immediate family but will usually pick one person that they adore the most. This is usually the person that spends the most time with them. It is important to get the pup at a very young age. I recommend you picking up your pup at 3-4 weeks of age. Choosing the right person to get your pup from is also essential. Ask a lot of questions. If possible, visit the compound. You want to see the conditions and quality of the establishment. Beware of the backyard breeders. These are people who breed only for profit, and house their animals in small pathetic cages. Also....beware of these people who have 20, 30, and 40 or more animals. These are definitely signs of puppy mills as there is no way to spend adequate time with this many animals and no way to efficiently give proper healthcare to such a large mob. "Jake" A wolf that lacks proper time being spent with it is living a second rate life. I screen my potential homes for my pups very discerningly. It is best to raise a pup in a secluded quiet area, not in a big city. Wolves do not like strangers and are afraid of loud noises. They are 1 family type animals. Wolfdogs are cold weather animals and love the snow. Their coats of hair grow better in colder climates, climates that get snow in winter. Wolfdogs can adapt to warmer climates but they hate hot, humid climates in states such as Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. They will never grow a very good coat of hair in these climates. I am always happiest when my pups go to people who live in states that get snow in winter. "Jake" "Jake" It is warm in my state in north Texas, but the humidity is low and we have cold winters. Wolves drink a lot of water, and most like to swim. I have 80 gallon water tanks in each of my enclosures, my enclosures covering about 2 acres for my 7 animals. Wolfdogs can eat dog food just like a dog, but it must be a soy free dog food, from a good brand, with a high fat content. Wolfdogs need high fat in their diets. "Jake" Vet care is pretty much the same for a wolfdog. All the same shots as a dog. You need to worm your wolfdog once a month and start it on heartworm prevention at a very young age. Given good health care, wolfdogs can live to be very old. A bond between a wolfdog and its family is intense. This is because you are the only pack that it knows. I have had wolves since I was 7 years old. My parents got me started in it back in 1973. I am 35 years old now. "Zeke" It is no wonder Native American people hold the wolf in such high regard and respect. It has been a privilege for me to be around such majestic and intelligent creatures for such a long time. I have several different types of wolfdogs: Alaskan Interior Alaskan Tundra Canadian Tundra A wolfdog, for the most part is an exotic animal. They need to be raised in a secluded place, as you would a bear, tiger, lion, etc.. A wolfdog absolutely does not need to be in a residential area such as a suburb or any area where you have close neighbors. People living in close areas will only cause you and your wolfdog trouble. A wolf is not a backyard animal. I do not care how good a containment area you have in your backyard, when neighbors find out what you have, being ignorant as they are in regards to the wolf, it will only lead to big problems down the road. And in the end, it causes responsible people such as myself problems too, because of the negative publicity. Take my advice... A wolfdog is a great pet, loving and family oriented...But...If you want to have one, do the responsible thing. Buy yourself a secluded place in the country as we did, far from the problems of the city. Build a very large enclosure, do the research, ask people that have 20 or more years experience raising them. Benefit from the knowledge of these people, and you and your wolfdog will live a happy life. If you can't move out of your residential area, buy yourself a poodle!! If you see a wolfdog breeder, who is raising them in a residential area, tell them they are irresponsible.. and spread the word about them.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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"Wolves have stronger jaws than any domestic dog. What is it going to take to make you realize this? Are the biologists lying? Why would they lie? They have no reason to." Show me this SCIENTIFIC PROOF. This needs to be a DIRECT COMPARISON BETWEEN AN AMERICAN PITBULL TERRIER AND A WOLF. THIS NEEDS TO BE A BITE FORCE MEASUREMENT USING A STRAIN GAUGE! Even then, the individual animal.. it's motivation for the bite, offensive or defensive drive, prey drive, fight drive, etc. would mean everything during this test! Don't you get it?! THERE ARE TOO MANY VARIABLES TO EVER BE ABLE TO ACCURATELY DETERMINE ANYTHING AND BASE THAT CONCLUSION AS A GENERALITY ON BEHALF OF A WHOLE BREED OR EVEN ANY ANIMAL!! How many test subjects were used of these "domestic dogs"... what were their ages, current health status during the tests, motivation for the bite, size of the dogs, BREED of the dogs, ETC ETC ETC. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GENERALIZE AND FORM A CONCLUSION ABOUT YOU CHIMP!! The only thing that IS KNOWN FOR SURE is that aligatorids and crocodillians can generate the most Bite Force so far from what has been tested. These animals were meant to be all mouth. This is common sense. Everything else is purely speculation. The same analysis (which is a vague page that I've read as well with absolutely 0 detail regarding the test's variables and constants) states that Hyenas generate 1,000lbs. Bite Force and Lions generate around 940lbs. Bite Force. This is insane... I highly doubt any Lion can generate near a Hyena's Bite Force. These tests are completely flawed.. they prove nothing. Still though dig up all those details that I requested and come back to present them. Otherwise, be quiet already.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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There is no weak part on an animal that can stop a caribou in a full gallop (by itself). You need to get your head checked out.A dog of the same weight as a wolf will have a head that is 20 percent smaller. This is a result of several factors that occurred during domestication of the animal. Dog heads vary from wolf heads in several other ways as well--they feature smaller teeth, more rounded and forward-looking eyes, and a more curved lower jaw. Armistead pointed out a crushed knuckle bone -- the size of a softball -- and said, "To give you an idea of the jaw pressure -- about 1,500 pounds per square inch it takes to crush that. ... There's not anything else (besides wolves) that can crush that knuckle," he added. The structure of the skull shows the wolf's role as predator. The broad muzzle of the wolf help it to hunt large prey. Wolves also have a well developed crest bone on the top of its skull. This is where a large muscle is anchored. The muscle operates the wolf's powerful jaws, giving it great strength, capable of producing 1,500 pounds per square inch of pressure.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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Wolves are wild animals that evolved from nature's strategy of "Survival of the Fittest." This means that the cleverest, strongest and healthiest animals survive to pass on their genes. These wild creatures are wary of humans and can be jumpy when in unfamiliar territory or strange situations. In contrast, over the past fifteen thousand years we molded the wild canine into the domestic dog. Through selective breeding we have chosen traits to form a companion animal that is amiable to our wishes, cooperative with humans and physically diverse. During that same time, wolves have developed fast reflexes and incredible jaw strength. This comes in handy during hunting. Speed helps to avoid injury and allows a low ranking animal to quickly steal tidbits from the kill. Jaw strength enables the wolf to rip through the hide and to shatter the bones of the prey for the precious marrow. Wolves serve to balance the environment and to cull out the sick and weak prey animals. They live in tight family groups called packs. Each has their role with a complex hierarchical system. Complex communication and communal care is contrasted with squabbles within the ranks and fights to rise in the hierarchy. Dogs, on the other hand, have been molded to stay in a cooperative and dependent state. They are adapted to accept human leadership and it is not essential for them to challenge that leadership or to change it. As our companions, dogs are adapted to living in our homes and families without having to mark or fight for territory or status. They accept our leadership and we are comfortable with them. This is different from the wolf who is territorial and who will vie for leadership upon maturity. Most pet owners cannot identify the signals their own dogs give. Often a wagging tail is interpreted as a good sign, however that is not always the case. A wagging tail can signal tension, aggression, fear, or conflict. Understanding this is supposed to be easy to do however most people misinterpret the signals. In contrast, body language is more subtle and complex in the wolf. A glance and posture change could signal a warning. When it escalates into vocal and physical chastisement of another wolf or human it can seem very intense to a casual human observer. Most people wouldn't even recognize the etiquette violations that trigger it. Greeting behavior in wolves can be intense too. When composed, the greeting ceremony may include licking, leaning, rubbing, and whining. Howling, biting, body slamming and other activities can be observed in the more exuberant moments. Dogs will greet their humans with exuberant tail wagging and licking. Unschooled animals may also greet by jumping, whining, barking, running, whining and other activities. Many will argue that there is always a potential of risk3 with any animal. This is true. However, domesticated animals have been bred to obtain their cooperative behavior with man; hybrids and wild animals have not. Although all domestic dogs are related to the wolf, man selectively bred the undesirable traits out over thousands of years to obtain a good companion animal. Breeding hybrids mixes conflicting traits between the wild and domestic animal. Most people cannot provide the higher caliber pet ownership care and management that a Wolf Dog hybrid needs. This is what leads to trouble. The wolf is an amazing animal. It is the public's imagination that puts the wolf into one of the top slots for intrigue and attention. Some see strength, grace, loyalty, and beauty in the wolf while others feel hatred, disdain, or fear towards the wolf. Either way, this powerful predator calls out to us. We answer this call in our folklore, in allocating mystical powers to the wolf, and in imagining them to be something they are not. It is the wanting to connect with them in some way that leads people into wanting to own a Wolf Dog hybrid. In general, most people are looking for an animal that looks like a wolf but acts like a dog.

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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i said you don't understand crap!macker the damn very top pits do not get beat,because that is what i have seen,fool.the top of the line pits have won every damn fight against other breeds.thats the way its gone up here in Alaska and Canada.if you think i can give you proof of this you are a simple idiot.other than seeing these things, the only place i know you can watch dogfights legal,is that Japanese pay per month web site.all they have are pits and tosas,they tried all these other breeds[dogoes,presas,etc.]with NO LUCK AT ALL WITH THEM!the history even shows that.and you do not have to pay to get that information.so you prove to me your dogo can kill a jaguar one on one.talk about a loser.if your breed could many breeds could,as the dogo can not even pit fight. stupid fireboy says people with pits should have double wall fence,alarms.well that just shows how much crap he speaks.if a shepherd can take three game bred no less!an old woman can not be harmed by 7,young girls can beat them away like flies,then we should be able to let them roam at will.as even poodles could keep the public safe!OH YEAH, HELEN KELLER HAD A WOLF THEY JUST TOLD HER IT WAS A PIT BULL.[snoopy, is it ok that i USED SOME CAPS,or did that HURT YOUR EARS?]

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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firedragons,where do you get your info from?what are your motives?and why?snoopy is a person who firmly believes in herself, but a little misguided, i disagree with her but i will gladly listen to her with an open mind. You on the other hand don't care if your right or wrong as long as you get a reaction, and no one here respects your opinion because you try to hard to be a wise guy.grow up already, your insults and manipulations make you look like you have the mentality of a adolescent.SNOOPY-survival of the fittest doesn't always hold true in a pack.any species of animal that has a social hierarchy amongst each other survive by performing there own responsibilities within the group structure.this leaves room for weakness within the members so long as they have each other to fall back on.i wouldn't call there evolution "survival of the fittest" i would call it "strength in numbers".

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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quoted from the mini-atlas of dog breeds. by Andrew De Prisco and James b. Johnson page 114-THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER PORTRAIT:The Pit Bull immediately strikes one as being a dog of power,passion and undying willingness.The brick-like head,which is ESPECIALLY BROAD BETWEEN THE CHEEKS[TO HOUSE THE POWERFUL JAWS]is carried upon a thickly muscled,well defined neck.The neck runs into a deep,thick,well-sprung chest that bursts with raw dynamism,sure affection and PURE GAME.The length of the dog slightly exceeds the height of between 18-22 inches.Weight is varied even among dogs of the same height;weight can be between 30-80 pounds. The coat is short,glossy and stiff to the touch.All colors are acceptable,with or without markings. DEVELOPMENT:Developed from the bull and terrier types of yesterday,the Pit Bull comes from an undeniable history of pitfighting.THE BREEDS TENACITY AND ACCOMPANYING STRENGTH ARE UNPARALLELED IN THE CANINE WORLD.As rich and captivating as the breed'shistory is,the Pit Bulls future is more worthy of commentary.The APBT,as registered by the U.K.C. does not refer to just any ill-bred, mindless warrior-type mongrel.In America of times unfortunately gone by the Pit BULL WAS A MUCH LOVED,MUCH TRUSTED WORTHY COMPANION.The loveless unworthies who have capitalized on the breed'sabilities for illegal dog fighting are chiefly responsible for the banning and witchhunting that have begun sweeping the U.S. The Pit Bull's future has perhaps been irreparably undone and everyone is to blame expect the dog itself.The ''little rascal'' is to set on pleasing his owner,and that ironically is the root of his own undoing. Accompanying this need to please are REMARKABLE ABILITIES OF ALL KINDS.PIT BULLS EXCEL IN PRACTICALLY EVERY CANINE TASK:herding,guarding,policing,and ratting. CHARACTER:That sly smile,those determined eyes,that unwaning pleasure to please,the mere quality and characteristics of the APBT HAVE EVOKED MORE HUMAN EMOTIONAL,RATIONAL AND IRRATIONAL RESPONSE THAN ANY BREED THAT EXISTS TODAY.BY NO MEANS ARE THESE DOGS PEOPLE HATERS OR PEOPLE EATERS;THEIR NATURAL AGGRESSIVE TENDENCIES ARE TOWARD OTHER DOGS AND ANIMALS,NOT PEOPLE.THESE ARE TRULY QUALITY COMPANIONS FOR QUALITY OWNERS-ONLY! THE PIT BULL IS LISTED AS A POTENTIAL-MAN-STOPPER,BY SYMBOL EXPOSITION,PLUS NEEDS REGULAR EXERCISE,PLUS IDEALLY SUITED FOR COMPANION DOG,PLUS EASYCARE COAT.ALL BY SYMBOL.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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FireDragons owns a Gamebred Tosa?! Yeah RIGHT!! LMFAO!! I found this while reading all the posts from the Wolverine vs. Pitbull thread. HILARIOUS is the word. Answer by NEAL (aka FireDragons) Submitted on 6/8/2004 "and by the way i never said BUTCH WAS A PIT.HES A 147LBS. GAMEBRED TOSA.STRAIGHT FROM JAPAN I PAID 3500 FOR HIM WHEN HE WAS 8 WEEKS OLD.MY WIFE IS FROM JAPAN SO I HAVE SOME FRIENDS THERE." You don't have a gamebred Tosa! You couldn't control such an animal!! Quit your lying I've already proven that you know ZERO about Tosas here in both NA and Japan. You've never been there and you DON'T have a wife there (maybe a boyfriend though). Tell me what bloodlines your Tosa is from, I'm requesting ATLEAST 3 generations back but preferably 4 will do. This will be a laugh!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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Yeah bigDOG. I like this part right here: "The brick-like head, which is ESPECIALLY BROAD BETWEEN THE CHEEKS [TO HOUSE THE POWERFUL JAWS] is carried upon a thickly muscled, well defined neck." FireDragon boy can't deny this phenotype of the APBT. Also, I might add, the APBT was the FIRST (#1) dog to officially be recognized by the UKC. This took place clear back in 1898! The Tosa-Ken was recognized by the UKC on Jan. 1, 1998. Obviously quite a difference. The Perro de Presa Canario recognized last year on Jan. 1, 2003. Even the Dogue de Bordeaux wasn't recognized until Jan. 1, 1995. Just thought I'd throw some of those facts in there that might be interesting to some. So much for the APBT being a "come lately" dog eh? I backtracked and read all of those stupid posts that you (FireDragons) had made months before I had even discovered this place. You TRULY are a clueless little mullet. Laughs

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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Jaw strength is reduced in the dog by a less acute angle around the zygomatic arch. Note the more pronounced angle in the coyote as compared to the Aussie. (Fig. 5) This is another typical difference between wolf or coyote and dog skulls. The larger sagital crest allows for a larger, and therefore stronger, muscle. The only breed with an angulation around the zygomatic arch that approaches that of the wolf is the American Pit Bull Terrier/American Staffordshire Terrier. Pit/AmStaffs also have a relatively short jaw, giving their heads a more cat-like structure: Broad + Short + Strong Muscles = Lots of Bite Strength. Now wasn't that nice of me to find information for you guys? A pit bull does have a very strong jaw but still not as strong as a wolfs. You can look at the skulls and see that the wolf has a bigger head and a bigger arch. The pit bull would not be able to grasp the wolf like the wolf can grab the dog. Their short muzzle is a defect in a fight with a wolf. The wolf could put his mouth around the dogs entire neck and break it. That is what happened to the dogs on natureswolves.com Except for the one dog with the crushed skull.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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how to use the MINI-ATLAS just as a road map is intended to guide one through an unknown area,so to is this volume designed to guide one through the fascinating,though offtimes complicated world of the domesticated canines. this book deals with over 400 breeds!you can see what a lier firedrag is.the pit bull being listed as UNPARALLELED IN STRENGTH AND TENACITY!THIS IS BY TWO MEN THAT WROTE ON EVERY BREED OF DOG IN THE WORLD!what about that little boy BLOWHARD? YOU WILL JUST START ON SOME PIT BULL THAT WAS WHIPPED BY A POODLE,OR SOMETHING.LOL. WHAT A LOSER TROLL!THIS BOOK ALSO LISTS MANY DOGS AS WOLF-SLAYERS,ONE ON ONE WOLF KILLERS!OF COURSE THE BOZO TEAM KNOWS MORE THAN THESE GUYS!I EVEN POSTED ALL OF THAT LONG AGO ON HERE!A WEB SITE SHOWING A BREEDER WITH DEAD WOLF AND ANATOLIAN SHEPHERD DOG THAT KILLED IT!ALL IDIOT CAN DO IS SAY''A WOLF KILLS THIS AND THAT'' YEAH RIGHT IDIOT IN A PACK,AND THEN ITS NOT EASY,FOOL!

Answer by macker
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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what an idiot! im here in south america and theres more dog fighting in one country here then in all of north america. youre just some kid!!!!!!!!! toruukai is just some website, wheres the proof, i could right a website that'll say poodles are top dogs just the same!!!!!!!! you got no proof!!!!! dogos havew bigger heads thicker necks and are more aggressive!!!!!!!theyre bigger than pits...pits cant do what a dogo does , they dont have the stamina, speed, or strengh.. WHAT A RETARD!!!!!!! i see fights all the time and even the best 100 pound pits lose to varuious breeds you little punk!!! canada?????alaska????try south america you moron ALOT MORE FIGHTING HERE!!!! pits are cheap and expendable and they are good at what they do.. generally the best but even the best get beat you moron! no real dog men would ever say pits never lose ...what a moron!!!!!!!

Answer by Jerry
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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i said the very BEST PITS ARE THE BEST.DUMB-ASS!TOURYUKAI IS A DOG FIGHT PAY PER MONTH SERVICE,BOZO!the pit and tosa is it.it plainly states that your dogoes where tried and did not fare well!this is in a legal dog fight country!THEY DO NOT HAVE TO HIDE,THEY FIGHT THE DOGS OPENLY.SO THE BEST WOULD BE VERY EASY TO FIND AND YOUR STUPID DOGO DOES NOT CUT IT!AND YOU A F-ING LITTLE LIAR ABOUT THE JAGUAR TOO!THATS A LAUGH!WHY DOES FIREDRAGON AND SNOOPY THINK THAT IS A GOOD STATEMENT?IF THE FRICKIN DOGO COULD TAKE A JAG A WOLF WOULD BE NOTHING FOR IT.I KNOW YOU ARE A LIAR MACKER!A JAG COULD MINCE A WOLF,PIT BULL,OR A DOGO!THAT IS A FRESH CAT AND A FRESH DOG ONE ON ONE.HELL JAGS KILL HORSES AND DRAG THEM FOR MILES!THEY ARE THE THIRD BIGGEST CAT IN THE WORLD.YOUR DOGOES MAY HUNT THEM BUT THEY DO NOT KILL THEM ONE ON ONE.A DOG IS NO MATCH FOR A BEAR,MT.LION OR A JAG!no dog no wolf.

Answer by Read a Book
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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Wolves are absolutely horrible fighters, and this has been proven many times. Read Colby's book, or any other book on fighting dogs. They used to match wolves against fighting bulldogs in England all the time back in middle 1800's. The matches were awful the wolf quit all the time, it was no sport at all. They used to put the female wolf in there with her pups just so she would fight harder. This was the only time the wolf would actually put up a decent fight, and she still ALWAYS lost. The males were much, much worse than the females in the ring. And what is this bone-crushing nonsense. Yeah, maybe after the animal is dead and the wolves chew on the bones for a while, but not during a kill. How stupid are you wolf people. The guy before had it right......no premolars means no bone crushing........and molars are not used in fighting, or hunting for that matter. And yeah, Pits do have premolars, so do all the bulldog type breeds. An Anatolian shepherd or mastiff would certainly kill a wolf. Sorry Macker, Dogos are awesome dogs, I've hunted pigs in Texas for 20 years and have seen how great the dogs are at this, but they aren't equal to Pits when it comes to fighting. They would win against inexperienced or poor Pits, but in a ring against a real game bred Pit, they would not win. Maybe once in a while, but not that often.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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Mromero says Grunt, if you look back through the posts you'll see that I have already proved to everyone on this site, Firelier is full of sh!t. I gave them all info on a real test that a friend and I did on a calibrated bearing press, accurate down to the 10 thousandth of a pound. They wont even address it. Actually Mromero, what you are saying is not even worthy of an answer. You don�t seem to even have basic intelligence. You are like a lot of people�you lie and when you post something, it�s generally from a very poor source that is also a lie. For example, military dogs, the temper of pit bulls, who has owned them �. And the fighting of pit bulls. No one would fight their dog against a wolf. It would be crazy and the wolf could not be controlled .. it might get upset and attack the people as well!!! This would alert the police, because they would have to explain the wounds at the hospital ! It just doesn�t happen. You are a very stupid person that tells very stupid lies and you never cite sources. I can tell when your lying because I am not just surfing the Internet. No one that has any experience actually believes a dog would stand a chance against a wolf. It�s just like the insults that have been hurled. I have no respect for the moron here that says he fights wolves or even attends dog fights. He is scum. So, when he says I am a 15 year old, do you think I care? I don�t even pay attention!!! Haha! He is a loser! Why should I address something so infantile! Losers all. Liars. They make lots of claims and don�t cite their sites!!! When they do, it�s a site run by some high school kid. As snoopy has said, the bite of most dogs were only estimated � mostly by the press. They don�t bit hard enough to be interesting. If you die from a dog bit, it�s generally a bunch of bites that cause you to bleed to death. Wolves break bones and severe limbs. We have posted the medical reports on this. You just talk. You keep saying that �No wolf has killed anyone for at least 100 years.� The actual statement is: no WILD healthy wolf has killed a human �. And so on. If the wolf has ever been in captivity, it doesn�t count. If the wolf is rabid, it doesn�t count. The 10,000 people that die from rabid animals in Asia (which includes parts of Russia) don�t count because they are killed by RABID animals. I POSTED CORONOR reports of humans killed by wolves! AND CITED THEM !!! Dude, you are stupid. SNOOPY cites her sources and uses the Wildlife and Fish people in many instances. You have never been in the wild and have never talked to a rancher that lost livestock!! Haha!! You are pathetically stupid and laughable. We all have a good laugh reading your posts. I have sent this out to friends. There aren�t many like you dude. Stupid. Don�t you know that � when someone reads what you say, you are stupid. HEARSAY is not when you cut and post�it�s when you hear something that is not original from that person. If I say �DON� said that Charles said this, it�s hearsay..which IS ADMISSIBLE IN COURT, depending upon circumstances! HOWEVER, when we cut and paste what you said, someone can go back and see this� When we cite an original source, you can go back and read it. For example, I cited pictures of Helen Keller and her dog. You can SEE the dog�pit bull sites that don�t cite sources are suspect and also when they cite secondary sources. A good example is that trash newspaper �LA TIMES� They will cite some source that is not original�for example, when the trashed Texas carry laws, they cited some site that was not the Texas Department of Public Safety. Why would they cite another source that cited the TDPS? I checked and it was a lie. CBS picked this up and cited LA TIMES. I don�t believe all I hear on TV and much of it is complete crank. For example, I heard a journalist say that President Bush admitted there were no WMD�in the same segment, President Bush said they had not �found them.� There�s a huge difference. Because you could fit all the WMD we sold them into a two car garage, I would be surprised if they were EVER found. Another thing is for jury trials�.the jury might say, �not guilty� That doesn�t mean �innocent.� However, Snoopy has quoted National Geographic and Discovery�. I don�t always agree with everything there, that�s why I posted the sources. They used credible scientists, including the only center attempting to measure �bite force� in the USA. None of these guys have been to where they claim. Can you imagine going to a country with a Russian President and Russian official language and Russian holidays � and not knowing it was Russian? Then living there and working and not knowing? Haha! Liars. A bear is NOT a good hunter. Most animals (except for people) can outrun them! They have an excellent sense of smell, maybe better than any animal�but they are terrible hunters. I disagree with Snoopy about one thing and maybe it�s just a matter of terms. Wolves ARE bred to fight. Fighting is how they kill and they must kill to eat and to reproduce. The pit does not have to fight to mate, he is selected by some moron like mromero. Wolves must fight to eat. They must fight to mate, and they must fight just to prove they can still fight. Being killed by other wolves one on one is the major cause of death among wolves. This is ultimate breeding, �survival of the fittest� The pit survives not because he must fight to stay alive, but because someone thinks he�s cute or they can sell him or give him away. He gets fed cereal. He fights, but not for his life. The wolf is an ULTIMATE fighter because few other predators must fight like the wolf. They are just incredible animals. NO predator is as successful. Wolves dominate the forests when given the chance and they are on all continents. If man doesn�t kill them, they are everywhere and are the most dominant predator by far. There are wolves in India.. but do you see tigers in the USA�or in France or Europe? There�s idiot Jerry that talks about how dogs fight and he has no idea. One of the ways to identify a dog kill is to find random bites everywhere .. and example was Ms. Whipple. She had bites over her entire body, except her feet. Wolves focus. Other person said, �performing there own responsibilities within the group structure.this leaves room for weakness within the members so long as they have each other to fall back on.i wouldn't call there evolution "survival of the fittest" i would call it "strength in numbers". Other person, you are stupid. Strength in numbers? Idiot. You have not even taken biology or maybe you just didn�t understand. Even with my dogs, they assert their hierarchy � this involves fighting. Every educated wildlife person knows that a weak wolf will be killed by other wolves. They don�t survive and they won�t be fed. Big Dog keeps reading breeder reports. They sell these ugly hounds. Haha! Loser! Do you think they will tell you only losers buy them?

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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"Their short muzzle is a defect in a fight with a wolf." Probably the only intelligent thing that you've said Snoopy.. I'm nearly impressed (still not quite though). I've always known this to be a defect myself... and this isn't just a disadvantage of a Pitbull.. it goes for all breeds of dog of the Brachycephalic type skulls (Some mastiffs, all bulldogs etc). The ideal skull, atleast in my opinion, would be something like a mesomorphic skull as it's in between both the dolichocephalic and brachycephalic skull types. You get a skull that is both wide and long.. without the disadvantage of having a shorter muzzle as this doesn't help out much in an actual fight but wouldn't be too much of a problem once the hold is obtained... (obviously). Where are you citing this from? "The only breed with an angulation around the zygomatic arch that approaches that of the wolf is the American Pit Bull Terrier/American Staffordshire Terrier. Pit/AmStaffs also have a relatively short jaw, giving their heads a more cat-like structure: Broad + Short + Strong Muscles = Lots of Bite Strength." I've always known that wolves have had a larger zygomatic arch. I've never said otherwise. There's still more to bite strength than just this.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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Mr.Grunt, You know, I hardly say anything. I only post things from websites. I can't remember the website, but I think I got it by googling wolf jaw strength pit bull. Wolves have the kind of skull you describe. Wide and very thick. They also have huge teeth. I have already said that wolves are not game. They are wild animals. Their aim is to kill not fight. I can find endless websites with people who study animals saying that a wolf has the strongest jaw. These people including the site about pit bulls and wolf jaw strength. I even posted info of a wolf being cut apart and examined by a school I think. This even talked about the muscle. You guys don't even respond to most of my posts. You just cheap shot me once in a while with some bogus information about wolves. Yeah wolves crush bones of large animals after they are dead. What is your point. Mine is that they can do it in the first place. A dogs bones are much weaker than that of a bull. There is a picture of the white dog and he had broken ribs from the wolf biting his side. He was still alive in the photo. None o the dogs have chewed ears or legs like in a pit bull fight. Just one fatal bite to the neck or side. And it is a huge gaping would. The dogs almost have their heads off. Show me some pictures of a pit bull doing this to a large dog.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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The next is of an adult saddle horse that was killed last year. We pastured this horse for our neighbors. The horse was alive on a Wednesday and on Friday of the same week, he was all gone! He was also confirmed by Wildlife Services as a confirmed kill, but we had to prove it also. I found canine bite marks in the horses hind legs, you had to look real close. Wildlife Services skinned the hind legs and you could see the trauma there. We also had to have a vet explain to Mike Jimenez why the blood was the way it was on the hind legs. Mike did not think that the wolves would kill an adult horse. Jon spent all night Friday watching the carcass, it was moonlit enough to see and Jon has a small pair of night vision scope. That night 5 wolves came back and cleaned up the rest of the carcass, at this time they was not much left of the horse. This horse weighed approximately 1250 pounds. From natureswolves.com There are lots of pictures

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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The Burgdorf Massacre On a night in mid-September 2003, in the Payette National Forest, on a ridge off Forest Road 325 near Burgdorf, Idaho, a pack of wolves attacked a herd of sheep and killed at least 55 of them, and another 30 are reported as missing. Mick Carlson, owner of Carlson Livestock, with his granddaughter Emily and one of his sheep herders, met with myself and several members of the Idaho Anti-Wolf Coalition and led us over dirt roads barely more than a rough fire trail to the scene of the massacre. Once devastated by forest fire years ago, it required a 20-minute hike over rough terrain and dead fall to get up the side of the ridge to the scene. Long before we got close, there was an overbearing stench of death. As we approached the first kills, there was a flurry of activity as the scavenging birds fled a few yards away to another batch of carcasses, the cacophony was tremendous as the birds fought over the scraps. The killings had occurred 5 days before and the carcasses have since been subjected to the elements, birds, a few coyotes, a bear or two and legions of insects. Neither the odor nor the visuals were tolerable for long. I had come with 10 rolls of 35mm film and 15 disks for the digital camera, but I only took a single roll and 3 disks worth of photos, for the carnage was just too disturbing, and I abandoned my plan to photograph each and every one of them in their silent death masks, now crawling with maggots and flies. Initially, I had planned to help treat this for what it was, a crime scene. My intent was to mark each corpse with my GPS unit, and use yellow caution tape around each to visually indicate the extent of the killing field when photographed from the adjacent ridge, however, the wooded area was too thick and I had brought far too few rolls of tape. A light snow a couple nights before melted the hundreds of wolf tracks, degrading them so much as to render them useless for making plaster casts, but not so much that a layman could not identify what creature made them. The killing field was probably 1,000 yards long and a few hundred yards wide. The wolves chased the herd downhill killing as it went until the remaining hapless creatures reached the creek at the bottom of the canyon. I did not go all the way down, I did not, as I had wanted to do, photograph each and every carcass, for I had had quite enough in the first three or four hundred yards. As a avid hunter, I am not squeamish, but it was pointless, each victim looked much like the last, attacked at the hindquarter, abdomen and on the shoulder near the throat. Most never eaten, just killed and left. The wolves had eaten just a couple so now it was to be the work of the scavengers to clean up the mess. Some of the struggles must have been epic, hundreds of tufts of wool littered the track from the point of attack to the final resting place, usually some 20-odd feet or so. The earth disturbed by cloven hoofs and clawed paws bore silent testimony to the violence of the attacks. The sheepherder named Chuck told me that on the day after the attacks were discovered, he, while searching for the missing sheep, blundered into an area where the over-full marauders had lain down in the sun to nap. Catching his scent, they awoke and arose, he wanted to flee, for he knew these were the killers, but he also knew that if he did run, the wolves may well add him to the menu. He backed away slowly, while still facing them. We wore gloves and dust masks (to keep the flies out of our mouths) but still needed to shower for an hour after getting home, the scene left one with a sickly, sticky feeling of something filthy dirty, like having just toured a WW-II concentration camp death-house. Government trappers killed one wolf the next day and trapped another (he radio-collared and released it - hopefully it will lead him to the rest of the pack, believed to be much larger than what the sheepherder saw) he is still working the area, searching for surviving sheep and still counting the dead. The photos he took and those Mr. Carlson took immediately after the slaughter, which show how few were fed on, have yet to be developed and the Idaho Anti-Wolf Coalition hopes to present them in a press conference to be held in a week or so. Some of the sheep that had survived the slaughter died a few days later of the bite wounds. Upon investigating this event, it was learned that several other livestock companies in the region had suffered even greater losses this year, but the media was largely silent on these, The Spokesman-Review being the only media of any note that even bothered to write anything, and at that just a small article earlier this summer. The killings had been presaged by the killing, and partial devouring of a herd dog in early spring. Later, in the Nez Perce National Forest wolves killed 20, and later 30 of Carlson's sheep. This slaughter however, is sure to bring national attention to the plight of livestock companies that suffer losses of approximately $100 per sheep. It was explained that the private conservation fund that had been compensating ranchers was now running out of funds.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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"We have made all sorts of changes in our operations to accommodate the grizzly, and now the damn wolves are killing the bears and no one does anything about it." While an occasional mortality is likely, all of the biologists I have spoken to have indicated that the most likely effect of wolves on grizzlies in the Greater Yellowstone area will be neutral or positive to the grizzlies. The positive impact scenario would mostly likely be that wolves provide grizzlies with additional animal protein (such as when a grizzly "claims" a wolf kill or perhaps feeds on an abandoned kill). This additional protein will be most important in those years when one or more of the grizzlies' traditional sources of food fail (such as whitebark pine nuts or berries). There were failures of one or more such food sources in 1994 and 1995. This is one reason so many grizzlies died at human hands in those two years. This is from yellowstone park website.(not me mr. grunt) Don't want to calling me stupid again.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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This is going to sound repititive because it seems i must explain this to you as i would a child, firedragons.weak members of wolf pack are not generally killed by other wolves.if that was the case, they would continue to kill the weakest members until only one was left. not every member can be the "alpha" or even "beta" in a pack. how is it possible to have a hierarchy if there is no acceptance for weakness.they can't all be the bad ass, only 1 can, the rest are weaker in comparison and create there own "chain of command" leading down to the weakest individual.survival of the fittest is something totally different and does not apply here.a wolf pack creates a society within its own. this requires the acceptance of weakness, with out this accelptance, a wolf pack could not exist. does this make sense to you firedragons? this is how you are able to survive in our society,we must accept you and others for us to have a society.if we killed the weakest, the next weakest would be next and so on and so on.acceptance of weakness does not equal survival of the fittest, it is strength in numbers,get it?

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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With the reintroduction of gray wolves (Canis lupus) to Yellowstone National Park (YNP), much interest has been shown regarding the effects of a restored wolf population on both grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis) and black bears (Ursus americanus). Grizzly bears, black bears, and gray wolves have historically coexisted in much of the same range throughout a large portion of North America (Brown 1993). Most interactions between the three species involve food sources and are usually characterized by mutual avoidance (Servheen and Knight 1990). The behavior of bears and wolves during interactions with each other are dependent upon many variables such as age, sex and reproductive status, prey availability, hunger and aggressiveness, numbers of animals, and previous experience in interacting with the other species (Servheen and Knight 1990). Most serious interactions between the species occur around wolf dens (Peterson et al. 1984). A wolf pack in Alaska was observed keeping a sow brown bear with yearlings at bay and eventually driving them away from the den site. The same pack was also observed driving a large, male brown bear away from the den site (Mech 1981). These bears were attracted by a recent wolf kill and ventured too close to the wolf den. From 1966 to 1974, Haber (1987) recorded 36 wolf-brown bear interactions in wolf pack territories in Denali National Park. Of the 36 interactions, 19 took place at ungulate carcasses in which wolves "won" 9 of the 19. Seventeen of the interactions were not at carcasses. In those cases, wolves harassed the bears or tried to take cubs, and the bears retreated. Steve Fritts (U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service) collected 70 unpublished accounts of bear-wolf interactions (Servheen and Knight 1990). The results showed no negative trends for wolves or bears due to these interactions. Few instances of direct mortality to either species have been documented. Instances of wolves killing bears and bears killing wolves have been reported, but such events are rare and considered the exception.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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Answer by snoppy Submitted on 7/12/2004 Snoopy says, "I won't ever agree with you because I never lie. Don't expect me to lie like you mr grunt. You are lying when you say a dog has a stronger jaw that a pit. It is a simple as that." Actually, it true that the pit bull DOESN'T have the strongest bite ... Dog jaws are all pretty much alike, the larger the dog, the harder the bite because of more muscle. The hardest bites recorded are from Rots and Shepherds, although they didn't test Tosas or Mastiffs. They did test pit bulls. The pit hangs on because there is something wrong with it's head...but basically, all dogs do soft tissue damage. You can take a dull knife and shove it into a piece of meat...that is the force it takes to bite to the bone. It's not very much. It's easy to do ... but take that same knife and try to drive it through the bone. There's a difference. Mromero, We have posted the difference between dog bites and wolf bites and how experts can tell the differnce. There is NO comparison between a animal killed by a dog (soft tissue damage) and and animal killed by a wolf (in pieces and broken bones, severed limbs) You can call this number USDA-WS at 1-800-228-1368 1-800-433-0663 Tell them you are just asking the difference between an animal killed by dogs and an animal killed by a wolf. You can contact the mammalian biologist at 715-762-4684 ext. 107. Give him a call and tell him you are a complete moron. Yea, Mrommero and other losers...give it a call. They really do work with wolves and are professionals. Loser!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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Wolves are in no danger of becoming extinct, as long as hunting is controlled. In Alaska, there are many areas in which the wolves have killed all the game...and the families that depended upon the game are starving. Finally, they are allowing us to kill many of the wolves. This is why some of the frontier people had to eat their horses. Wolves will kill all the game and then starve themselves...and start killing HUMANS !!! Kevin C.Duffy, Commissioner Public CommunicationsP.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Phone (907) 465-6166, Fax (907) 465-2332 Press Release: November 18, 2003 Contact: Cathie Harms, (907) 459-7231 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Permit Applications Available for McGrath Area Predator Control Program Permit applications for taking wolves under the wolf control program in Unit 19D East near McGrath are available from Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) offices throughout the state. Those interested in obtaining a permit can drop by any Fish and Game office to pick up a permit application, or call and request a copy by fax, email, or postal mail. Permit applications will be sent to ADF&G Headquarters in Juneau for consideration. Criteria used to select successful applicants will include knowledge of local geography and experience in low-level flying. Successful applicants will be notified within one week after applying and will be required to pick up their permit at the McGrath ADF&G office. Permits will be valid for a 30-day period. Permits for Unit 19D East will allow members of the public to take wolves while airborne, or to spot wolves from the air and land before shooting. Department staff expect to issue up to three permits initially. Additional permits will be issued if necessary to attain program goals. This wolf control program is part of a long-range management plan to help rebuild depleted moose populations near McGrath. The people from the McGrath area are highly dependent on moose meat to feed their families and have asked the Alaska Board of Game and ADF&G every year since 1994 for help in restoring their moose harvest. Residents need 130-150 moose per year for food. Annual harvests in the area have averaged 60-90 for the past decade. http://www.kerwoodwolf.com/PERMITAPPSAVAILABLE.htm

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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5 wolves?killed a horse!thats just your mindset that blows me away!why do you think that is so impressive?a pack can do a lot more than one.trouble is we are talking about what one animal can do.not a group! WHEN DOGS FIGHT SOMETHING ELSE,IN A PACK THAT IS LARGER THAN THEM.THEY WILL RUSH IN AND BITE THE LARGE ANIMAL,FROM BEHIND AND GET AWAY BEFORE IT CAN CATCH THEM.THEY GET THIS FROM THE WOLF.And i am not talking of pits just dogs like hunting hounds. why is it you[snoop]leave it up to the pit bull guys to take issue with macker about dogoes killing a jaguar,one on one?in fact you seemed to go along with it.the thing is if this were true,that breed would kill a wolf easy.so it sort of looks like you wolf people,left it up to the pit guys do what you should have done!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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"For centuries, those who bred dogs for bull-baiting or pit fighting didn't give a damn what their dogs LOOKED LIKE. All they cared about was whether or not the dogs were successful at what they did. That was the sole criterion for selecting dogs for breeding. For this reason, performance-bred APBT's show a very wide range of variation in phenotype, since they were never, at least until very recently, bred for conformation. But, no matter what it looked like, there's no way you would ever mistake a real APBT for anything else if you saw the way it fought. The quality that enables an APBT to defeat any other breed of dog, even a dog four or five times heavier, is not evident in the dog's phenotype. Neither the APBT's impressive jaw strength nor the explosive muscular power of its torso are enough to explain why a game 50-lb. APBT can always overcome a 120-lb. Rottweiler or a 200-lb. Mastiff or Tosa. It is gameness, the quality of never quitting in spite of exhaustion, blood loss and broken bones, that enables a performance-bred APBT to prevail against such odds. No other breed has even a quarter of the APBT's gameness. And this extraordinary quality could only have been built up gradually over countless generations by a strict application of the basic rule of performance breeding [selective breeding] described above." http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqmisc.html

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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Firedragon- That is a little extreme. Other person- Wolves are complex animals. They are the most social animals second to dolphins. I would guess they killed the sheep because they could. When something runs from a wolf they will have an urge to chase it. Like when you throw a ball for your dog. My dog always chases the ball. If he is sleeping and he hears me throw it he will get up and chase it. He can't resist. That might be only one reason though. Sheep are stupid and easy to kill. Maybe it was fun for them. Like a game. The alphas could have been using them as tools teaching their young,who knows? Wolves are smarter than dogs. At least that is what I have read in many books. It is a different kind of smart though. The books say they figure things out quicker than dogs do. They are more witty. They did test and studies on how fast each animal could find food. The wolf aways got to the food first. I don't really know why the wolves did that.Maybe they were just asshole wolves. Why did white men come over here and chase all the bison off cliffs? Killed most of wolves prey. Before we got here the native americans and wolves did not have problems with each other. Most tribes held the wolf in a very high regard. They respected the wolf. The wolf population now has to be controlled because there are too many people. I guess it is easy for people to blame this on the wolf and kill them all. Sorry no room for you!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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Here is some sensless killing for you. Bison, history of the animal which today is more commonly known in America as buffalo. These animals were at one time so numerous that their stampedes across the prairie sounded like the roll of distant thunder. Giant beasts roaming the open plains and migrating in mass herds are more reminiscent of Africa than North America. But for several hundred years large herds of bison roamed the open prairies from Canada to the Great Plains of the United States. Bison, which today are more commonly known in America as buffalo, were at one time so numerous that their stampedes across the prairie sounded like the roll of distant thunder. This earned the bison the nickname of 'thunder of the plains'. But with the immigration of white settlers into the prairies of North America, the bison's numbers dwindled to a fraction of their original numbers, and - at one point - neared extinction. The North American buffalo traces its origins to a similar Eurasian bison species, which crossed the Bering Strait in prehistoric times. From these Eurasian bison, two types of American bison evolved: the Wood Bison and the Plains Bison. It is estimated that at the peak of the North American bison's existence, nearly sixty million bison roamed from Mexico clear to Canada. The plentiful bison provided the mainstay of the diet of the plains-dwelling Native Americans. As the herds migrated with the seasons, so too did Native American tribes such as the Lakota, the Sioux and the Cheyenne. Considering their dependence on bison, it is not surprising that the Native Americans held the buffalo in high regard. Organized hunts were usually conducted on foot and later on horseback. The primary weapons were typically arrows or machetes. Given that an adult male buffalo stands nearly six-and-a-half feet tall at the shoulders and can weigh up to 2000 pounds, the Native Americans relied more on brains than brawn for a successful kill. For example, the Native Americans knew that wolves would never attack a buffalo standing close to the herd. They also knew that for this reason a collective group of bison would not fear an approaching wolf. Dressed in wolf skins, Native Americans would be able to approach a group of bison without sparking a stampede and then make a successful kill. Knowing that bison will follow their leader blindly. Native Americans would also don buffalo skins and trick the bison into stampeding to their deaths over a cliff where other tribe members waited to carve the carcasses. Native American hunting techniques typically meant they only killed what they could use; and their tribes used absolutely every part of the buffalo. The rawhide was used to construct shields, saddles and moccasins. Buffalo hair fluffed up pillows and made sturdy ropes. The brain was used for hide preparation, which was then used to make teepees. The rough side of the buffalo tongue served as a comb. The gall was used for yellow paint. The stomach contents were a proven medicine while the stomach lining made for great cooking vessels. Native American folklore also speaks to the importance of buffalo in the lifestyle of the Plains Indians. The Cheyenne believed that all the bison used to be jealously guarded by a being called Humpback. Humpback believed all animals to be schemers, and he refused to let the buffalo roam. Another being, named Coyote, decided to trick Humpback into releasing the buffalo. He disguised himself as a helpless dog and became the favorite pet of Humpback's son. When Coyote was left to sleep in the buffalo corral, he barked and nipped at the heels of the buffalo, causing a stampede. The buffalo broke through the corral, ran down Humpback's house and scattered. For the Cheyenne, this explains how the buffalo came to roam the earth. Another Cheyenne tale explains how humans came to eat the buffalo. Long ago, the buffalo used to hunt man, causing great destruction as the two species fed off each other. The magpie and the hawk agreed to act as counselors between man and buffalo to decide once and for all which species would reign. The council declared a race between buffalo, man and the rest of animals. The species that won would have the right to hunt those that lost. The buffalo chose their swiftest cow for the race and as the participants set off, it seemed clear that the buffalo would win. But at the last moment, the magpie and hawk surged forward winning the race in the name of man. The buffalo cow, upon seeing her defeat, told her herds to hide, for now man would hunt them. She also told them to take a bit of human flesh for the last time. The buffalo obeyed and they placed the human flesh below their throats before fleeing. From that day forward, the Cheyenne never ate the buffalo flesh located below the throat. In thanks to the magpie and hawk for their help, they agreed to never eat them, but only use their discarded feathers for their most important ceremonies. But the revered relationship between the Native Americans and the buffalo forever changed with the introduction of white settlers. Starting in the 18th century, white adventures began to explore the western portion of what is now the United States. With their swift horses and deadly guns, settlers found the bison an easy target. Buffalo hunting came to be associated with the danger and adventure of the Wild West. Bison tongue became a delicacy among Americans and the white settlers left tongue-less, rotting carcasses strewn across the prairies. Bison hunting proved an effective political tool as well. As long as the bison were allowed to roam freely across the prairie, settlers could not use the rich prairie soil for agriculture. Another impediment to settling the prairies was the Native Americans themselves. Many tribes fiercely resisted relocation to reservations. Elimination of the buffalo herds would spell the end to the Plains Indians who depended upon them for survival. Therefore the American government actively supported buffalo hunting. The railroads proved an even greater threat to the American bison. As railroads stretched into the western territories, buffalo provided meat for the railroad workers. The infamous Buffalo Bill once bragged that he killed 4200 buffalo in seventeen months to feed rail laborers. Once the railroads were functional, the bison destruction only continued. Train operators would slow their locomotives so passengers could sport shoot the bison from the train windows. The carcasses were never collected but left to rot. By the end of the 19th century, the bison population in America had dwindled to only 800 animals. Shamed at having needlessly slaughtered one of the country's most majestic creatures, William Hornaday engineered a conservation movement. In 1905, the American Bison Society was formed to protect the remaining herds from poachers. The efforts of William Hornaday and his successors have rescued the American bison from near extinction. Today the American bison roams freely along the protected parklands and private ranches of the open prairies. Although their roaming area is barely a fraction of its original size, bison numbers have steadily increased over the years. Today bison are estimated to number nearly 200,000; a number which is strong enough to ensure their survival. But bison are still under threat. Bison carry the disease brucellosis, which is easily transmitted to domestic cattle. In order to protect the lucrative Montana cattle industry, any infected bison wandering into Montana are immediately slaughtered. In nearby Yellowstone Park, where bison are protected, there were 3500 bison in 1996. Due to the brucellosis slaughter, the population dropped to 1500 by 1997. Despite this recent setback, the future for the continued existence of the American bison appears secure.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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The land of Illinois was hunted by many Native Americans. In our research we found that the settlers treated the Native Americans much the same as the wolves. The settlers that came, first the French traders and then the farmers, were afraid of the Native American ways. The Indians were hunters and gathers, not farmers, and this frightened the settlers. The Native Americans protected the animals and would follow the wolf to hunt their food. Native Americans thought of the wolf as a teacher and would not harm the animals. Many legends are told of the wolf as a teacher and helper of the human, never as an enemy. The major tribes in Illinois were part of the Illinois Confederation and included the Fox, Potawatomi and Cahokia. The settlers traded with the Native Americans, and slowly their lifestyles changed from following the seasons to trapping and farming. After many of the settlers arrived, the Native Americans were forced to move West. image taken from web site Flaming Wolf The wolf was very important to the Native Americans and had a great role in their daily lives. The wolves were known to Native Americans as teachers or pathfinders and the Native Americans followed them to find food. Wolves are fiercely loyal to their mates, and has strong senses to family while maintaining individualism and this impressed the tribes. In the stars, the wolf is represented by the dog, Sirius, which is thought by many tribes to be home of the "Ancients." It seems wolves have come to be connected to ancient teachings. Therefore, the Native Americans honored the wolf and respected them for their contributions to nature.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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The jaguar's robust stature and legendary strength have given it the reputation of being a large cat, however, in reality males rarely exceed 300 pounds and average 175 to 225 pounds. The largest are found in the Pantanal area of Brazil. Females are somewhat smaller, as with most felids, averaging 70 to 90 pounds as adults. Most felids kill their prey with a throat or neck bite, jaguars on the other hand often bite through the temporal bones of the skull resulting in instant death. Their name, yaguara, as coined by South American Indians, means "a beast that kills its prey with one bound." How could any dog even compare with that? I refuse to argue with someone who could be so retarded. I don't like people that kill jaguars anyway. In case you haven't noticed I'm an animal lover.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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The male grizzly, 7 feet tall and weighing close to 1,000 pounds, "is the king of beasts, but they're slow," said Douglas Smith, who leads the National Park Service's Yellowstone Wolf Project. Next in the pecking order, albeit with some disagreement, come the wolves, the only predators who work in a team, followed by black bears, cougars, coyotes and smaller carnivores such as the wolverine. The bears and the wolves can comfortably bring down an adult male elk. The cougar is a solitary hunter and prefers elk calves, but it can kill adults as well. Coyotes and smaller animals either have to scavenge other animals' elk kills or settle for mouthful-sized voles, squirrels, mice and other rodents. An elk is a temptation that wolverines, and especially coyotes, can't resist: "If you can survive long enough to cash in on a big food source like an elk, you can eat well, produce pups and pass on your genes," Crabtree said. "But you have to avoid the wolves. If you don't, you die." In the wolverine's case, the competitor was a black bear. Inman said it was not clear whether the bear or the wolverine killed the elk -- wolverines have been known to pull it off -- or whether the elk had simply thawed out after freezing to death or dying of starvation during the winter. However it happened, the pecking order prevailed. No matter which carnivore kills the elk, researchers agree that greater Yellowstone is a ruthless place where losers often pay the ultimate price. Last month, 14 wolves caught a female cougar out in the open skulking around one of their kills. The wolves killed the cougar, then found her kittens and killed them. The dead female had wolf hair in her teeth and claws. "The wolves will wade into a situation and check it out, and if it goes well, they'll keep going," Smith said. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it does not. Smith saw a male grizzly drive a pack of wolves away from an elk carcass, then make a "king of the hill" defense as the wolves darted in and out, trying, but failing, to wear him out. But wolves do not always win. Males, at 125 pounds, can go after a 110-pound female cougar if they are in a pack, but a lone wolf is a bagatelle for a 160-pound male cougar. Smith has recorded two instances of cougars ambushing and killing single wolves -- one an adult, the other a pup. "A lion has two sets of lethal weapons -- teeth and claws, whereas wolves' principal weapon is just teeth," said National Park Service cougar specialist Kerry Murphy. Cougars can dominate as long as they stay in the rocks or in the forest, where they can climb a tree. "We're still talking about dogs and cats," he said. The wolves have had remarkable success since their return to Yellowstone, growing from an initial infusion of 37 animals to 273 today, in 31 separate packs. Still, Smith acknowledges, a female grizzly "is the single most dangerous animal in the mountains." This is because bears, like some of the other predators, have more to fear from their own kind than they do from neighbors. Male bears will kill and eat a female's newborn cubs, perhaps to accelerate the female's breeding cycle. Male cougars will also kill a female's cubs and will take on another male if it tries to usurp its breeding rights. Among wolves, killing one another is "part of the natural order of things," Smith said. "Wolves are ferociously territorial," he added, and are constantly fighting turf wars. Since the wolves returned to greater Yellowstone, there have been at least 30 pack conflicts, with 15 wolves killed, he said. Crabtree suggested that these battles are one reason wolves sometimes let coyotes approach their kills, then chase them down, even though they represent no danger: "Maybe you want to teach your pups tricks of the trade," he said. "Maybe wolves are killing coyotes to practice for conflicts with other wolves later in life." I told you wolves fight!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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These yellowstone posts are just to show the kind of crap wolves have to deal with all th time. Also that they are very fast. From the beginning in 1995, the new Yellowstone wolves and the bears have been observed to cautiously co-exist. As time has passed, more and more wolf/bear interactions have been observed. Dr. Doug Smith, head of the Yellowstone Park wolf team, reports a new peak this late summer in wolf-grizzly bear conflict. Nothing lethal has been seen, but in recent flights he has seen many wolf - grizzly interactions. Recently, a large, about 400 pound grizzly was at the Swan Lake Pack's rendezvous site near Gardiner's Hole. He saw 14 members of the pack trying to move the bear out of the area. He said, "the wolves were successful in moving the grizzly around, but they couldn't evict the bear from their rendezvous site." He said the pups appeared to be familiar with bears and 4 or 5 of them were about 10 feet from the bear, watching their pack mates harass it. In his most recent flight over the Pelican Valley he saw a very large grizzly, 500 pounds plus, feeding on a bull elk kill that had probably been stolen from Molly's Pack. Ten members of the pack were standing within feet of the grizzly and the kill. In addition 3 more grizzly bears were within feet of the kill. At the moment of the overflight it appeared that all of the animals were waiting for someone to make a move. The same day he saw 6 other grizzlies in the Pelican and 5 or them were in close association with wolves. The Leopold Pack has left its rendezvous area, and is now traveling widely with this year's pups. About 8 miles from their now-abandoned rendezvous site, Smith saw 16 members of the pack chasing a grizzly bear. In his observations this summer, Smith said that wolves are too fast for the grizzlies to catch, but the wolves rarely displace the bears from a kill, which is usually one made by the wolves and taken by the grizzly. "If the bear does get the wolves behind its rear end, however, the wolves usually give the bear a quick bite or two."

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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other person- This guy describes why they kill when they're not hungry better than me. I think there is a lot of this type info out there but sorry no link. Sometimes this type of stuff is "lost" or buried because it has been very politically incorrect for some biologists and some of the public for a long time. Canine research (particularly for wolves and coyotes) for at least the past thirty years has shown that canines CAN and many times DO kill in excess of their needs. The chase/capture/kill instinct is strong (survival) in predators and once triggered it doesn't instantly shut off when the REQUIRED kill is made. The very thing that allows them to survive and makes them good at killing is not directly tied to a formula where the chase/capture/kill amount exactly equals the requirements. Goes something like- prey is spotted, chemical/neurological functions are started (the instinct to kill/eat), chase is made, kill is made, chemical/neurological factors are still in place and the killing or attempt to kill continues until this "chemistry" wanes. Once they start there is nothing in their make up to keep count. Cats while somewhat different exhibit this same "condition" during the time immediately before, during and after the kill. The "kill only the lame or sick", while feel-good by nature, is often not at all the norm with most predators and happens as an opportunistic benefit of the relationship between predator and prey. If it were otherwise the predators would all starve to death, periodically, during the good times for prey when most if not all of the prey population was healthy/strong- the predator populations simply don't seasonally/periodically drop to near zero.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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Actually, what Snoopy said about predators only killing what they need is true ... she said at times, they kill far in excess to what they need. It's just as some of the early settler's and explorers were appalled at the abuse given the environment by the Indian....Indians would start forest fires just to have a laugh and see them burn. It also made game easier to catch and find, but it's a good thing the Indian population was small, or this country might be barren. There is even a cliff where Indians killed more than 300,000 bison by running them off cliffs...and these were the bison they didn't use! Wolves do this too..for example wolves killed more than 300 animals in one slaughter in Russia that were not eaten. They would bite their genitials out and leave them. For some reason, we often tend to "glorify" many individuals and demonize others ... often because of the times. Wolves are great to have ... I am all for them, but not when they starve people and other animals. Then, their numbers must be reduced. My dogs would kill small animals just to kill them. They are trained not to attack larger animals, mostly because I don't want them hurt, but in a dog fight ... I am confident they would win ... except I don't want my dogs fighting, even beagles. Animals are capable of great cruelty when they are bored. What sets them off is unknown...maybe confusion, who knows. But everyone has seen a cat toy with a squirrel or some poor animal..and everyone has seen a dog toy with a cat. They take the cat in their mouths and just hold it there, before they crush the cat and shake it. it's a way of ... terrorizing the animal. The further dogs are from the wild, the tamer they become and maybe they don't show their instincts. Man is this way too...far from war and the evil side of man, there is an innocense...and innocense that leaves many after some travel and viewing the horrible acts of man in other countries. Sor example, who would not be touched and enraged when...learning of a woman that was brutally raped ... is then sentenced to die by stoning because she had sex outside of marriage..being "raped" is not an excuse unless four male muslim witnesses testify. So, one of our allies...kills bout 400 women a year. They are victims their entire lives and then victims of pig men with points noses. They are stoned after being raped. Stoned and killed over a period of an hour or more. What to do? We can just let them live and walk away. OR we can bomb hell out of them and bring their wretchness evil to them, right to their door ... but others say, it is their way. Let them be. I see some of this sickness here with these dudes that fight dogs and want to go to bear baiting sites. What is wrong with your head?

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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I don't know why you would ask that. At the moment Firedragons and I are in an argument about what happened to my native american ancestors. He thinks native americans killed just as many people as white men kiled them. I very strongly disagree. I have read a story of a native american woman about to grab the flag of truce and she was shot. While her baby was breast feeding. The baby ofcourse did not know its mother was dead and continued to breast feed after her death. The soldiers sat and watched these grusome sites. I can't stand it. How could you believe what those lying land theives say? I cried. This is not a good subject for me. I am part cherokee and will only be upset by it.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Answer by bigDOG is a lie. I cited the article from Handgun Magazine Editor and newletter publisher for a pit bull newsletter. The fact is that you can go to the dog fighting web pages in Japan and there are no pit bulls! They are all Tosa. A Tosa can defeat any breed of dog. Unlike in the USA where money is made illegally by gambling, and gambling by low life scum...in Japan, dog fighting bets are illegal. The dogs compete in tournements only...this encourages tougher dogs. Tosa are huge and often weigh more than 200 pounds. I posted their phone number and you will find that the Japanese are not impressed by the pit, except to say, "it's tough for a little dog." http://www.shaku1.com/tosakenctr.html Take a look at this massive animal !!! http://www.tosa-inu.com/images/Kochi_Center_JapanRed_Tosa_11-03_StoneWall_Tosa-Ken.JPG http://www.tosa-inu.com/images/Kochi_Center_JapanRed1_Tosa_11-03_StoneWall_Tosa-Ken.JPG http://www.tosa-inu.com/images/Kochi_Center_JapanRed2_Tosa_11-03_StoneWall_Tosa-Ken.JPG The Owner of this 6 month old puppy is 6'4" This animal could easily kill any pit. There are NO pit bull CHAMPIONS. I have posted the number to the city ... anyone can just ask. Here is a 2nd ring champion....look at the size!! Even the LARGEST pits are too small. http://www.tosa-inu.com/images/ARBA_Cherry_Boss_4-04_Ring.JPG These are some of the fighting dogs... http://www.tosa-inu.com/images/ARBA_Cherry_Boss_Group_4-04_Ring.JPG http://www.tosa-inu.com/images/ARBA_Cherry_Boss_Group_4-04_Ring.JPG This dog has his own motel room! http://www.tosa-inu.com/images/ARBA_Cherry_Boss_4-04_Motel_room.JPG HERE's the bottom line. APBT have been fought in Japan for more than 40 years. Only the largest pits can compete with the smallest Tosas.... "This style of match has been in existence in Japan for about 40yrs or so perhaps since the reintroduction of game bred APBTs around that time. Today, most of the scratch and turn matches are held exclusively using APBTs, though there are some that use small Tosas at the heavy weight class of the scratch and turn tournaments with success. On the same token there are large APBTs that have been successful in the lightweight division of the Tosa style traditional matches." http://www.touryukai.com/history.asp

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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I have explained this many times here from the very beginning...about the size of dogs and matches .... but I came across a legal fight site and they directly compare pits and Tosa. You can also call the city, which owns the fight center..very big pits have beaten Tosa runts, but in the end, even Tosa runts win the tourmaments over the biggest pits. Unlike the lies told here about the "MILLION DOLLAR" purse, a champion dog in Japan can really bring a million dollars. The fact is that the Presa is used by police to �inactivate� pits and can easily kill a pit; however, it�s much bigger than a pit bull. The Presa does not stand a change against a Tosa, and it�s it�s to big in Japan to be matched with the smaller pit. So, The Presa is not fought often in Japan, but has been used. ALL breeds of dogs have been used!!!! �The breeds of dogs used in the fighting rings of Japan are the Tosa and the APBT. (American Pitbull Terrier) All the other fighting type breeds (Neos, Dougues, English Mastiffs, American Bulldogs, Presas, Cane Corsos, Dogos, etc, and even 2 versions of Pakistani Fighting dogs) have been imported and tried in Japan at one time or another both against the Tosa and the APBT and have had little to no success. Clearly, the Tosa and APBT are the breed of choice for Japanese dogmen and it is rare or almost unheard of to see any other type of breed in any kind of sanctioned tournament. Both of these breeds have been bred solely for its effectiveness in the ring for many generations and are continued to be bred this way today. � http://www.touryukai.com/history.asp

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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I guess this must be a Cherokee website. Everyone here is Cherokee. At any rate, regardless of ancestry, the Tosa can whip any dog. I don't know what that proves though or what difference it makes. As for the most PSI, it's a wolf. No doubt. The pit websites are full of liars that propagate mythis that aren't true. The pit is a good animal, but why would someone own one? There are many breeds. You can hunt with them, they can't be used as guard dogs (although female Tosa are used as guard dogs). Recently, the Supreme Court of Colorado through out the state pit ban and already six people have been mauled...plus the trash it attracts. Much of the past should be forgotten. I have nothing to do with pit fighting from my ancestrial days. For you that carry grudges all your life that ... don't affect you and you were not even born then, get on with your life. Simple as that and live your own generation. I live mine.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Go to http://www.bandog.tv right now FireDragons moron boy and ask Alex of RedStar Kennels what he thinks of most Presas "ability". He will enlighten you on how 95% of ALL PRESAS ARE NOT WORTH A SH!T!! Even coming from Gran Canaria or Tenerife more than most are NOT WORTH A SH!T! Their 1970's "reconstruction" ruined them and stripped away almost all their performance and all their fighting heritage you idiot! LOL!! They aren't the fighting dogs of the past.. they are hardly even related to those dogs! They've had many different Mastiff breeds added to them to keep the breed from dying! Read their history and know what you are talking about you idiot!! "Red Star Kennel, owned by the Vyatkin family, is a world-class breeding and training facility, famous all over the globe for their performance Presas. Owners Alex and Irina Vyatkin, besides being very accomplished professional athletes and instructors in military sports with dogs, have almost 50 years of combined experience breeding and training dogs in obedience, agility, rescue and personal protection. The major purpose behind their efforts at Red Star is producing exceptional companion dogs truly loyal and reliable in protection of family and property." http://www.red-star-kennel.com/new/default-frames.htm Talk to Alex from RedStar.. he will laugh at you! He has said before that 95% of ALL Presas aren't worth a sh!t... and that many won't even hit a sleeve in Personal Protection work because they are too scared or emotionally crippled!! HAHAHAHA!!! He has worked with THOUSANDS OF PRESAS YOU IMBECILE! If you don't make a post there I WILL. And will make you an example YET AGAIN for being a total LIAR. =D

Answer by Enough
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Some of you have been reading and downloading so much crap from the internet that you don't know what you are reading anymore. This is really simple: the Jap sites will of course favor their dog, the Pit sites will favor theirs. Middle Asia has their breeds that they favor. Here's the thing that you need to get straight here, even pure Tosa'shave bull and terrier in them, the bull terrier was used in the breed'screation. It is what gives them their gameness. Presas are a reconstructed breed, and guess what, Staffs were HEAVILY used in their reconstruction. All Bandogs, Dogos, Bully-whatevers, have this blood in them. This is what makes them good, game fighters. Also, no matter which dog the person favors, they all say the Pit Bull (of whatever flavor, Staff, APBT, English Staffie) is THE MOST GAME of all the canines. There is no tougher animal on this planet. When you see this dog, with his legs chewed up so bad he can't walk or half his head split open, wagging his tail and walking to scratch against another dog that has almost killed him you ASSHOLES better pay the respect they deserve. Hate the people, hate the dog fights, hate the whatever bad thing happened to you because of this dog, but put the blame where it belongs, and it is not with the breed. Do not mix apples and oranges, get the wolves out of the fighting canine discussion, they don't belong there, they are not fighters, they are wild animals, they are no more built for fighting (body and most importantly, survival instinct) than a German Shepherd is. An aggressive dog is NOT game, they are just aggressive. Gameness is the desire to fight, to continue to fight, no matter what. Dogs without Bull and Terrier are simply not as game as dogs that do have this blood. Aggression, sure any dog can have this, and when you have a big strong dog that's aggressive they can be great fighters for a limited amount of time (Akita's, Mastiffs, Rotty's and they can defeat ANY other dog at times in a fight if things go their way. But, get past 10-15-20 minutes and still ask them to fight, or have them get hurt and still ask them to fight, or put another dog clamped on the side of their head and ask them to fight, and they will quit. ALL OF THEM. Except dogs with Bull and Terrier. No other canine will wage war for hours just because they want to fight. No other dog has a harder, more destructive mouth, and no other dog has a body as strong and as resilient to punishment than a bull and terrier breeds. They are the greatest fighting canines ever, and they should be honored by us for doing what they do because showing no fear in the face of harm or death is the finest character any being can ever show. That is why I, and so many other people love them. Even people who would never own one, deep down if they are dog people, respect them. AMEN

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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firedragons, i agree with the cruelty thing, but you are inaccurate about natives.i have heard there were as many as 50 million before we showed up.i am your all american white boy that sees the differences between all of us.i do not judge or "hate" anyone, so i see all points of view.it may be true they were capable of some atrocities but i think for the most part, they respected this land much more then we do, it its unfair to label any people because we all have our "dark side"as far as the music thing, i like everything also..rock,classic rock,hip hop,jazz,blues, and some classical.i know im way off subject but if you want to hear a great band(acquaintances of mine)that mixes jazz,rock,and hip hop check out "know boundaries" website. you can sample some songs.these guys are going to make it!!!!and they are like nothing else,not even close.a whole new style when your sick of the same old crap.www.knowboundaries.com

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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snoopy, i seen those pictures and there is no doubt the wolf is capable of some great damage but, this is from wolf packs and much of the damage is after the prey is dead, the pitbull fights alone and is not allowed to continue its attack after its won.there is a difference.two dogs can do considerably more damage when pulling in opposite directions.i do however agree that if a wolf gets the first bite in the right spot the pitbull is done, however getting the first bite in the right spot is not so easy with a pitbull.most of the wolves victims are running away, this will not happen with a pit!!!and if the pit gets a hold on the wolfs face, the wolf will find out really quick that his weapons are useless against a dog that can control the wolf's head.this hold will last longer then the wolf's will to fight it.now if it was a pack of wolves, i know the pitbull should kiss his ass goodbye.it is easy to site wolf sources, as you might guess dog fighting sources aren't readily available but the proof lies in the dog and the dogmen who breed them.these men are professionals in there own right and will know more about animal fighting capabilities then any biologist or zoologist.i don't like to watch dogfights anymore but i have seen enough to know bigdog and mr grunt know what they are talking about.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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The pit bull would have a very slim chance of getting a hold of the face of a wolf. The damage I have shown you in most cases have been from a wolf bite. The hamburger effect is from a wolf biting the muscle and crushing the tissue and causing the animal to bleed to death. They show you this and the teeth holes in the cow from one single bite. They are faster than pit bulls. They have been teaching their cubs to fight by letting them kill coyotes as practice. The dogs from natureswolves.com only have one bite to the neck. Wolves have huge mouths and could grasp a pit bulls head in their mouth. You can see on natureswolves.com where the black dog went for the wolfs face and that was a mistake. The dogs head was almost chewed off. That was the work of one wolf. The big white dogs side was bitten by a wolf and broke its ribs while the other wolf grabbed its throat. There were only two black wolves and they were killed. You have yet to show any damage that matches what a wolf can do. Zoologists and biologists study animals for a living. They study all animals and how they work. They say wolves have a stronger bite than any dog. That is a fact and you people know it and won't admit it. You are claiming to be right over the experts and it's just sad.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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BigDogS says, "you cited the TOSA DOG EDITOR,NEWSLETTER WAY BACK ITS ON HERE.YOU ALSO EDITED EVERYTHING POSITIVE OUT,ABOUT THE PIT BULL! YOU CAN COMPARE TYPE IN -THE TOUGHEST DOG IN THE WORLD,THEN GO BACK WAY BACK...READ HIS POST.WE HAVE BEEN THOUGH THIS OVER AND OVER!YOU LEFT IT OUT,THAT IS PLAIN.THATS WHEN I SAW HOW FIREDRAGONS REALLY IS A PRICK.ITS ONE THING TO QUOTE PEOPLE, BUT WHEN YOU START TAKING OUT THINGS THAT DO NOT SUIT YOUR PURPOSE!NOW WHOS THE FUKING ASSHOLE LIAR?" Loser!! Haha! There's nothing good to take about about pits. It's all there ... you read it. It's what I have been saying the entire time...that you are a loser and that the pit only stands a chance with runt Tosas. You can make up whatever you want in your mind and maybe it will just be you here talking to all your screen names, but the Pit can't win against the Tosa. And they haven't won either. It's proven and shown. Answer by bigDOG Submitted on 7/14/2004 Rate this answer:Weak look inside your pit bulls mouth,while he is panting.straight back to his jaws in the back.the sides are thick like 2'' on each side.now do the same with a different breed.they do not compare!AND THATS WHAT ITS TALKING ABOUT WHEN THE MINI-ATLAS SAYS BROAD BETWEEN THE CHEEKS TO HOUSE THE POWERFUL JAWS.AND NO THE PIT DOES NOT ''HANG ON BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH IT''ITS DOES BECAUSE ITS BEEN BRED TO!DUMB ASS.IS THERE SOMETHING ''WRONG'' WITH A BEAGLE BECAUSE IT RUNS RABBITS,EVEN THOUGH IT NEVER CAN CATCH THEM? Haha! "Bred" ... what are you talking about? Hanging on is behavior. It's not "bred" into them, except to say they have a defect in their brain. If you knew anything about animals, you would know that is is a defect. They also play with a ball longer, or they try to dig a hole. It's not in their best interest to do this sort of thing. You can train them to "hold" but most of born with this trait. It really doesn't help them much. I have already shown that they lose easily to Tosas.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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yeah we know what you have ''shown'' your opinion twisted all out of reason.the pit does not lose to a tosa every time.in fact its way more in favor of the pit.why would the tosa dog newsletter editor give the pit bull so mush credit?[that you would not even REPRINT]the tosas i seen,were not some kind of unstoppable beast.in fact they were beaten in the long run.another thing hanging on is the way ALL dogs fight,even the wolf.its just that the pit can do so longer because of JAW STRENGTH.IT IS IN THE DOGS BEST INTEREST TO DO SO,AS IT PLAIN FREAKS THE OTHER BREED OF DOG OUT!and yes pits can and will let go on something that is big enough to hurt them if they do not.that was noted by a farmers wife, when she tried to get chopper off a bull when her husband was gone and the bull and the 11 month old pit got into it.[he would let go when the bull tried to smash him against the ground,only to go right back on the other side.]these dogs are far more and far smarter than firedragons makes them out to be.i know because i have been around them and many other breeds of dogs ALL MY LIFE.I have and still do know the men with the TOP PIT BULLS IN THE SOUTH.firedragons can talk all the crap he wants but i know different!many things he says are false and he will site this and that to try to support his ideas.i am not impressed because there is a big difference between real life and reading something,then putting it together the way you want. yes snoopy we know the wolf can kill some dogs and bite hard to kill prey.it cannot fight like a pit bull and thats all i dis- agree with you about.forgive me for not being as taken with the wolf as you are!

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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oh get off your crazy B.S. ALREADY!i seen this picture of this bite and its not as bad as what a GOLDEN RETRIEVER did to my boyfriend!come on that is insane!the breed of dog bred to fight to the death,in a ring for hundreds of years CALLED A PIT BULLDOG NO LESS! CANNOT BITE AS HARD AS retriever!?!!o.k. what ever you say.you are SO RIGHT.THE BULLDOG BREED HAS ALWAYS BEEN KNOW FOR BEING A GENTLE MOUTHED BREED.MORE SO THAN DOGS THAT HAVE BEEN BRED TO RETRIEVE DUCKS WITHOUT DAMAGE.AND MAN HAS IMPROVED THE WOLF IN ALL AREAS LIKE SCENTING,HUNTING,GUARDING,RACING,POINTING,SEARCH AND RESCUE,HERDING,BUT NOT PIT FIGHTING.IS THAT WHAT YOU ASSES WANT?WHAT IS YOUR POINT?EVERYONE SAYS THE WOLF SUCKS AT ONE ON FIGHTING.BUT NO YOU AND FIREDRAG ARE RIGHT!NOW SHUT THE FUK UP![OH FIREASS TELL ME WHO YOU THINK I AM ON HERE,I NEED A LAUGH!]

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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"Do you think Mike Tyson could win in a fight with a gorilla or chimpanzee? He is a trained boxer. Apes can't fight like him. He's an athlete and has a very powerful punch. This is how you sound to me." Those animals have 4-10x the strength of a full grown adult human. A Pitbull taking a wolf on strength isn't such a big deal.. wolves aren't built like sh!t brick houses. They are built like houses that are made out of bamboo.. as they are runners not solidly built and muscularly developed wrestlers (which Pitbulls happen to be). Pitbulls are pound for pound the strongest canine (or animal for that matter) in existence. Wolves are canines. The average wolf is only around 75lbs. Pitbulls get this big and bigger. Are you suggesting that wolves are stronger than Pitbulls at the same weight or near the same weight? I'd rethink that if you are... Pitbulls are known for their explosive torso power. They can outwrestle anything. Tosas have to weigh plenty more than them just to have a chance at defeating them. They aren't defeated a lot of the time due to the Tosa's actual fighting "ability" but defeated just because they are heavily outweighed a lot of the time. And even then, when they are outweighed, they have prevailed in the past.. sometimes being outweighed by 100lbs (yes 100lbs. or more). A perfect example of that would be Don Mayfield's old dog "Scarpio" that was only 30 something pounds that ended up defeating and "killing" a 150lb. or so Yokozuna Tosa. I don't have a hard time at all believing that a 75-100lb. wolf will infact be "overpowered" by a catchweight APBT.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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In a single bound, a wolf can leap 16 feet. Can a pit bull do that? I don't think so. A pit bull could not even catch a wolf. So, a wolf is faster. Right? A wolf is faster and more agile. It also bites harder. A pit bulls only chance would be to get lucky and get a firm grip on the wolfs neck. I just don't see that happening because wolves are so fast. I have already said this. Pit bulls are buff and have strength for wrestling with another dog. A wolf is not going to screw around and wrestle with the damn pit bull. He is going to kill it and maybe eat it.Like I said before. There would be no fight. Have you ever seen a pit bull nearly bite another dogs head off? If so prove it. Do pit bulls break ribs with one bite? Causing the other dog to choke on his own blood. I'm sure pit bull are great at fighting other dogs. But not a wolf. You know how you could get a wolf to fight a pit bull? If you had a large fenced area with some of a packs wolf cubs in it plus the alpha male or female(doesn't matter). Then send you pit bull in there and see what happens. Ofcourse I wouldn't want you to do that for the sake of the dog. You would also have to be gone because wolves are so afraid of people. So you couldn't be there to encourage you dog like the dog handlers do with the pit bull. Wolves are so crazy about their cubs they have been known to attack grizzly bears. Sometimes killing the bear or at least driving it away. I don't care how game your pit is. It would be one dead pooch. Oh, I wasn't saying that a golden retreiver could bite harder than a pit bull. I had thought I made that clear. But that paticular pit bite was not as bad as the bites my boyfriend recieved from the golden. You know, my nine year old sister was bit by a pit bull in the face. It only left a tooth hole on her cheek.Her friend got the dog to let go of her. That same dog tried to bite me but I saw him out of the corner of my eye and moved my arm. I guess I was quicker than he was.

Answer by pitman
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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if any of you really do witness dogfighting and are really into it, why would you pay to watch fights via internet... ?why subscribe to toryukai????? I think most of you really jsut have books and the internet!!!! i wouldnt trust a website or a newsletter that is based on this website on anything...of course there gonna push their breed!!!! ther is no favourite or deffinate winner when it comes to this, there are just too many variables to consider! i own and fight pits, of many lines! i wouldnt ever count out a tosa or pit or presa, bully dogo or anything the comes from these bull breeds! anyone woh always picks a winner based on what they own isnt a dogmen just a kid!....bye

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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"You still don't get it." Nothing flew over my head. I do "get it". Wolves aren't strong. Quote me for saying this. They aren't strong. There's too many dog breeds that are seriously much stronger than any kind of wolf.. including the Red Wolves.. not just Gray Wolves. You say don't give me the hunt in numbers crap because you know it's true, you just don't want to hear it. Lions may hunt in numbers but they are more than capable and often DO hunt by their lonesome selves. I've seen lions scare off large packs of hyenas no problem. I'd like to see a single wolf do this. What would happen is the wolf would be devoured.. it's narrow little skull crushed and it would be screaming like a baby when the Crocuta Crocuta (Spotted Hyena) are crushing it alive. Wolves need the the reassurance of the pack as their "safety net" incase things get out of hand during a hunt and they need them to help with taking the kills. I am not putting the wolf down.. I'm telling it like it is. Even the experts will tell you the same. Packs are formed for reasons, not just for the hell of it. There are wolves that depart from their packs to find the right mates etc. and do infact hunt on their own.. without the pack. I'm not saying this doesn't happen I'm just saying that this is more of an exception than an actual commonality. They hunt in packs. Btw, I've yet to see ANY gruesome pictures of animals or people that have been bitten by a single wolf. I've seen some pictures of animals that have been slaughtered by a whole pack of wolves but not by a single wolf.. and not with just 1 bite. I am looking for the following criterion: Pictures of victims that fell victim to ONLY 1 single wolf. Pictures of victims that have been killed by a single wolf with just 1 bite, no more than this. Pictures of victims that have extreme muscle damage "hamburger effect" from just 1 single wolf and just 1 bite. Pictures of victims that have had their bones snapped/broken/fractured from just 1 single wolf from just 1 bite. Show me this. I've seen pictures where total teamwork was involved from the "whole pack".. not by a single wolf with just 1 bite like you claim is possible and happens often.

Answer by SNOOP IS WRONG YET AGAIN
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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Yes, wolves are strong. They are wild dogs that have to kill things to live. So they have to be able to kill prey animals in order to survive. But they are no where near as strong as Pit Bulls are, they couldn't wrestle with one, they could'ntpull as much weight, they couldn't hold on as long with their "OH SO POWERFUL" jaws, the only thing they could do is run faster and farther. On top of Grunt'scomments, I'd like to add that forget about a 75-100 lb wolf, get any wolf at any weight and square them against a fastlane, catchweight Pit Bull. When the two dogs are released to fight, that is if the wolf actually does go after the dog (which is not in his nature to do, they will try to get away instead) the fight will be over after the collision. No matter what wolf you find, he will be moving backwards or on his back after the collision. Guaranteed. The wolf would never be able to get a Pit Bull off him, and even though I'm quite sure he will try his best to escape, the Pit Bull wouldn't let him go. This is a quick fight fellas, and the big bad wolf comes up short. Not his fault, though, mother nature never built him to deal with this.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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"Have you ever seen a pit bull nearly bite another dogs head off?" I've seen Pitbulls scalp other dogs.. and bite half way through their throats. Take the whole head off with just one bite? No. Could a single wolf do this with 1 bite? Hell no, unless we're talking about a poodle or toy dog breed.. and even then it's not a "guaranteed" decapitation from just 1 bite. "Do pit bulls break ribs with one bite? Causing the other dog to choke on his own blood." Pitbulls have been known to break ribs in a fight with their heads. If you know about the English Bull Terrier, you will know that his "Roman Head" was used as a battering ram to break his opponent's ribs. The dog could charge and lower it's head and jerk into the dog's rib cage. This sometimes would result in serious injury and yes, broken ribs. Most Pitbulls don't aim for the ribs.. but I'm sure fracturing or breaking a rib or two is very possible with a nice hard bite.. considering some of the dog's ribcages are so well-sprung that they're literally sticking out. "You know how you could get a wolf to fight a pit bull? If you had a large fenced area with some of a packs wolf cubs in it plus the alpha male or female(doesn't matter). Then send you pit bull in there and see what happens. Ofcourse I wouldn't want you to do that for the sake of the dog." Supposedly this has already been done.. and from what I'm hearing, the wolf doesn't last. I guess it's detailed in Colby's book (not that I've read it)... you might want to pick that up. Pick up Dr. Carl Semencic's "The World of Fighting Dogs" book too.. supposedly that has some info in there as well about similar encounters. What has been said is that back in the 1800's female wolves were tried with their cubs in the pit so they'd be vicious to the Pitbull when the confrontation occured. This didn't matter I guess.. the wolf was defeated. The male wolves weren't a challenge at all.. so I hear. Why would they be now? If this is true and written about in some books even back then in the 1800's.. when Pits were much smaller, then why would a wolf be able to hold his own now with a Pit that has gained much more perfection through almost 2 centuries more selective breeding and added size? If the wolves couldn't hold their own THEN, how will they NOW? It makes no sense.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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SNOOP IS WRONG YET AGAIN> So true man. I just gave the 75-100lb. range being way "generous" LoL. I didn't want to go overboard but yes, you are definitely correct on that. No matter the wolf's size, the catchweight Pit WOULD DESTROY IT strength-wise not to mention fight-wise, that's a "given". Snoopy wrote: "A wolf has 2X the jaw strength of a pit bull. 3X the jaw strength of a german shepherd." Why are you claiming such stupid things? You surely can't back this up.. even an idiot could realize that this is totally opinion and NOTHING more. We all know that none of this can be accurately measured anyhow.. there's too many variables.. we've been through this. Last I checked, there were ZERO specific dog breed tests conducted regarding bite strength. Maybe a general test labeled "domestic dog bite strength" but surely this isn't specific to all the breeds and is a common generality that is being based upon all breeds when infact it might only cover one. The results would obviously vary greatly from breed to breed.. not to mention with all of those variables in the test (drive/motivation, current age, size, health etc). I can tell you right off the bat that NO WOLF can bite twice as hard as a Pitbull. That's completely insane. Wolves don't have the jaw strength to hang on NEARLY AS LONG as Pitbulls do on a rope, animal, springpole, tree branch, whatever. If they did then they would be doing it!! Even if they weren't bred for it they would still pull one of these awesome feats off eventually.. perhaps while hanging off of a caribou or moose? They could maybe hold on for 10 seconds and then get tossed off. Again, I'm being too generous. This tells me that their bite isn't half as strong as you're dreaming it up to be. The article that you posted yourself claimed that APBT's have near the same acute angulation around the zygomatic arch that wolves have. I found the page and read the whole thing myself. This article never claimed that a wolf could bite harder than an APBT. The wolve's larger sagittal crest doesn't mean that they will bite 2x as hard as a Pit or even harder at all. Both the APBT and wolves have heavy masseter muscle development.. it's especially noticeable in the Pits. You see huge pouches of muscle that make them look like they're chipmunks storing nuts in the side of their cheeks.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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What are you? An idiot? They hold on to fking moose and bison until they go down. You really think a pit bull is stronger than a moose? I've seen a wolf being thrown around and he still hung on. I ve had so many people look at your replies to my argument. They ask me why I still write in becasue I have one by a landslide. All you do is give false information about wolves. It's so sad. I'm so tired of correcting you. From this point on if you say something wrong about wolves I am going to ignore it. Other people that read on this site- Do not listen to what they say about wolves. Read all the posts and look up the information youselves. They don't know what they are talking about.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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Skeleton The skeleton of the wolf is well adapted to its lifestyle. The bones need to be strong, for power in bringing down large prey such as caribou or moose. The narrow collarbones, interlocked foreleg bones and specially adapted wrist-bones give the wolf streamlining, strength and speed. The radius and ulna bones are "locked" in position. This inability to rotate the forelimbs gives superb stability when running. The wrist bones of the wolf are fused together for extra strength. When closed, the toes are ruggged and strong. Splaying the toes allows the wolf to grip on to slippery, uneven and steep surfaces. I guess a pit bull couldn't fight on a frozen lake, a wolf could. Why do you continue to say stupid things? Saying a wolf is not strong is stupid.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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Two wolves took down a bison. You can find that at yellowstone.com Bison are fking huge. Do you think two pit bulls could take down a bison? If you do you're just crazy. The hamburger effect is shown with a single wolf bite. I already left the address for this site. Go back and look. I brought up the chimp thing because they don't look buff but they are very strong because of their bones+ their muscle. Wolves are the same in this manner. Their strength is in what they have to do every day. It would be hard to test a wolfs strength. Their strength is not for pulling things anyway, it's for killing large animals. Can't you just take your pit bulls hunting and tell them to sick a bison?Better get real close though. See what happens.

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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This has nothing to do with wolves or pitbulls but if you want a good laugh check this out. Wild hare attacks man A German man suffered bite wounds to his foot after he was attacked by a wild hare. Juergen Marwedel was standing in a meadow near his home in Bargfeld when he noticed a friend on his moped. "Suddenly he stopped, waved his arms and kept calling for me," Mr Marwedel told the Cellesche Zeitung. As he approached his friend, it turned out a big hare had bitten into the rear tire of the moped and wouldn't let go. When Marwedel tried to get the animal off, it turned to him and bit through his shoe into his foot. Marwedel told the paper he couldn't get the hare off his foot and eventually had to kill it with a stick. He took the dead hare to district vet, Dr Eckhard Peters, who confirmed the hare was not rabid.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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Alpha- An alpha of a pack is a superior wolf with power over all in that particular pack. They have dominance and they have strength, so don't try to get into a fight with them and use autokill, because that is strictly forbidden and, come on, you know that if a wolf is alpha, it must be strong. Alphas can also accept and/or reject rogue wolves into their packs. Betas- Betas are like the alpha helpers. They organize hunts, accept/reject rogues, keep the pack members in line, and they also get to patrol borders and mark borders if they please. They are allowed to keep dominance around every rank lower than them. Subordinates- This rank is in the middle. It is allowed to only help in the hunt, bab-sit pups, keep pack members in line, but it is not allowed to patrol borders and accept/reject rogues. Hunters - These wolves are the agile ones who help mostly with hunts and are the ones in the first line of pack fights. They do not do much but just help around with scouting, hunting, and helping to find places. They are not allowed to patrol borders and/or accept/reject rogues.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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Wolf Senses It has been stated that the wolf possesses sharper vision, hearing, and smell than the domestic dog. Most wolf biologists agree that the most acute of the wolf senses is that of smell. Smell The wolf's sense of smell is about 100 times better than a human's. It uses its sense of smell more than anything else to find prey, with the ability to smell prey before it can see it, more than a mile away if the wind is right. A wolf's nose can smell things that your nose can't. Like your nose, the inside of a wolf's nose contains moist surfaces that "catch" smells in the air, however the area receptive to smell in a wolf nose is 14 times greater than that of a human. The wolf's nose has about five times more surface area than yours does, so it can catch more smells from the air than you can. It can even sense the presence of an animal three days after it's gone! The nose itself is not five times larger than a human nose. For all the extra smelling surface to fit inside, it must be wrapped and folded many times. An experiment was performed at one time with covered trays of food to test the relative senses of smell between wolves and dogs. What required only five minutes for the wolves to determine which tray contained food took domestic dogs over an hour to discover. Hearing The sense of smell is probably the most acute sense the wolf has next to hearing. It is believed that the upper range of a wolfs' hearing is upwards of 80 kHz. The upper range of humans is only 20 kHz. It is stated that a wolf can hear up to 6 miles away in forest and 10 miles in open areas, including some high-pitched sounds that even a human can't hear, in the range where bats and porpoises produce sound. Even when it sleeps, a wolf's ears stand straight up so it can catch sounds made by other animals at all times. This helps the wolf catch prey, and lets it know when danger is near. Their large, pointed ears act like big scoops to catch lots of sound. Unlike humans, wolves can easily tell what direction sound is coming from by turning their ears from side to side. The direction the ears are pointing when the sound is loudest tells the wolf which direction the sound is coming from, which can help them locate rodents under a snow pack. Sight The wolf relies on its sense of hearing as well as smell more so than sight. Their vision is comparable to that of humans. The wolfs eyes lacks a foveal pit. A depression at the back of the eyeball. This is what is used to focus at greater distances. It is believed that they can not distinguish much beyond 100 to 150 feet. This is possibly one reason why the wolf mask accents their facial features and ears so greatly. Their myopia evidently stems from the absence of the fovea centralis, the tiny pit at the back, center of the retina which, in humans, primates and some other animals provides the point of sharpest vision. Just how clearly a wolf sees when looking directly at an object is, of course, impossible to know, but it seems evident that beyond a short distance their vision must be somewhat blurred, rather like that of a photograph taken with a wide-open lens at a slow shutter speed, as opposed to an exposure taken with the smallest lens aperture at a fast speed. Nevertheless, wolves can see shapes and, especially, movement over long distances, and their peripheral vision is extremely accurate. They are able to detect even the slightest movements of very small animals, such as a mosquito, at a distance of more than ten feet and the movement of larger animals at considerable distances. There is some controversy as to whether wolves see in color or black and white. Regardless, it is unlikely that they see the various hues of the spectrum as humans see them, because the physical makeup of the eye is different. Nighttime vision for wolves is many times better than human vision in the day or night. Wolves can actually see much better and even much more clearly at night. The eyes of the wolf are like most predators, with a sight-field of nearly 180 degrees and pointed forward. Again. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT STOP PREACHING CRAP! Here's where I got this info. www.wolfsource.org

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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We know that the dog's brain is smaller than the wolf's. What does this say about dog intelligence versus wolf intelligence? Budiansky says the wolf certainly has a larger brain, but how can you really measure animal intelligence fairly? Coppinger believes that wolves are definitely instinctively smarter, whereas dogs can only be taught through play. You pit bull people are just so so sad. All you can do is lie at this point. Can you at least try to find some information? I don't know if this means anything, but when I came to this site I didn't know for sure if a pit bull could kill a wolf. But thanks to you, I have no doubt that a wolf would put a pit bull into a very shallow grave. I even had hopes for the pit bull. Not any more, the truth is told. You all had me totally wrong the whole time. I did my homework. Do yours.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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"What are you? An idiot? They hold on to fking moose and bison until they go down. You really think a pit bull is stronger than a moose? I've seen a wolf being thrown around and he still hung on." You've seen "a" wolf doing this? Congratulations on seeing this "exception" in action!! I bet he held on for a long 10 seconds too huh? Wolves don't hold on for sh!t.. quit bs'ing already you jerk off. I know 8 year olds that have more common sense than you. This says a lot about that feeble mind of yours. I'm still waiting on those statistics that prove that wolves have 2x the bite strength of an APBT and 3x that of a German Shepherd. Come on LIAR.. produce the evidence.. or produce some more LIES. You're really good at that. I'm still waiting on those wolf pics that illustrate those single wolf single bite bone breaks, hamburger effect, and decapitations. Produce them or forever shut your hole. Put up or shut up. You're a big talker.. that's all that you've proved well so far. PS: Wolves are weak, they get kicked by caribou and they die. I was just reading up on a wolf that was skinned and dissected and the wolf weighed in at 90lbs. After it's double-layer coat was skinned off of it there went 15 pounds or so of it's weight. Where does that put this animal? 75lbs.. that's all the mass it had and even the people dissecting it were laughing that the wolf looks huge with that double coat but skin it off and it looks comparable to a greyhound with it's skinny little slender build! Yeah man.. that'll wrestle a Pitbull alright. The only way it would win is if the Pitbull choked on a hairball on it's way down!! Laughs hard

Answer by other person
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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snoopy, i love pitbulls but i love wolves too, and i came in here with an open mind. You do realize there are no studies and no biologist or zoologist have researched the pitbull. There is no scientific research down at all. Yet there are countless people who depend on dog fighting for there income.It's been big through out history, and is still is now. Over the years I'm sure EVERYTHING has been tried.If the wolf proved to be a money maker, don't you think it would have at least been bred into the pitbull? A wolf could never hold onto a bull's nose while been wiped around, smashed into the ground, and flung into any available objects for LONG periods of time all by himself.No wolf would grab a 300 lb. feral hog all by himself with tail wagging while battling one of these beast. No wolf hybrids are successful at weight pulling. No documented proof of a wolf killing a pitbull, even though we know they kill other breeds all the time, and is a huge problem in wolf territory.No dog fighters breeding them.absolutely no proof a wolf would kill a pitbull, yet ALL dogfighters claim it has been done with NO success. I would believe the men who count on winning "canine combat" for a living.How do you figure hundreds of years of perfecting fighting abilities in canines, that we some how screwed it up, when so many people depend on it.this wasn't just for fun, this was people that depended on it, and still do.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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Loving? What does that have to do with PSI? I love carrots more than cabbage doesn't mean that carrots are better for you. The wolf has a higher PSI. The "opposition" has not posted any sites that dispute this assertion. The pit was NOT "pit bred" in that the pit came along 50 years after dog fighting was banned. It came after bull baiting and bear baiting. In counties were pits are "pitted" against Tosa dogs, the Tosa kicks ass. There is no dispute about this issue. In some instances, "runt" pits are small enough to give the largest pits a chance. In those instances, you can see from the champions...the Tosa still wins and is the champion in all weight classes.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/16/2004
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FireDragons> Your "runt" Tosas are TosaxAPBT mixes, I've proven this BEYOND A DOUBT. I've shown around 6 different tournaments in Japan that were using these mixes (within the 70lb-lower 100lb range). You really have no clue in hell what you're talking about. I feel bad for you. You're stupid and take pride in being a stupid little troll. You're not even very good at that! I've taken the time to upload evidence to my website and allowed it to be downloaded and viewed just to show everyone that you're a complete moron. You really are quite the idiot. Believe what you want. You have said in the past that you owned a 147lb. "gamebred" Tosa. You're full of sh!t. You couldn't even control one.. let alone afford one. You're a nobody and can only dream of acquiring such animals.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/17/2004
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"You're so stupid. Yes wolves can hold on idiot. And I saw it. Anyway I told you if you say stupid things like that I won't correct them anymore." You "saw it". Show us Snoopy what you've seen. I don't believe you. Nobody here does. You NEVER backup your claims with actual sources nor have you provided ANY single wolf single bite decapitations/hamburger effect/bone snapping proof. The only thing that I can buy is that the wolf was able to hold onto the prey for a mere few seconds before it's weak jaws gave and it fell off. I can believe that. Holding on past that? Sorry.. teeth don't count honey. That's probably ALL that you've seen.. a skinny little furry wolf holding on only because his teeth were "stuck" (being up to 2" long and all) in it's prey and only appearing to be the product of "jaw strength". Only you Snoopy would buy into that.. you and FireDragons the wannabe Tosa dogman. You guys should collaborate and start a wildlife reserve. Maybe even become zoologists since you guys like National Geographic and nature so much. Park Rangers.. you guys could do that too.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/17/2004
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Answer by Mr. Grunt Submitted on 7/16/2004 Rating: Not yet rated Rate this answer: N/A Worst Weak OK Good Great FireDragons> Your "runt" Tosas are TosaxAPBT mixes, I've proven this BEYOND A DOUBT. I've shown around 6 different tournaments in Japan that were using these mixes (within the 70lb-lower 100lb range). You really have no clue in hell what you're talking about. I feel bad for you. You're stupid and take pride in being a stupid little troll. You're not even very good at that! Haha! LOSER! You never have any sources ... none of you do, and when you do ... it's always a lie, something you have made up. It's legal to fight in Japan, and I posted the Dog Fight Center's official word on this. None of you guys know anything about animals or dogs. You just talk. I suggest you get on with your lives, losers!! Haha. After all, we have posted where a collie whipped three pit bred pit bulls and made them run away. I have posted where three pit bulls couldn't take on an elderly person. I have posted where a small poodle whipped a pit bull AND his owner after the pit attacked the poodle's owner!! Yes, losers of the world. Certainly you are....Cite you sources LOSER!!! Get on with your life. Your problem isn't here, it's with the world. You have lied and said you lived in Russia, that you herded live stock and ... all kinds of lies. You can't just say you saw something when what you say makes not sense and is not real. Loser!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/17/2004
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FireFagg0t, look man.. stop your lying you asstard. It's really getting sickening. I've given so much proof I'm surprised your sorry ass is still around trolling. Here we go: I found this while reading through all the posts from the Wolverine vs. Pitbull thread. HILARIOUS is the word. Answer by NEAL (aka FireDragons) Submitted on 6/8/2004 "and by the way i never said BUTCH WAS A PIT.HES A 147LBS. GAMEBRED TOSA.STRAIGHT FROM JAPAN I PAID 3500 FOR HIM WHEN HE WAS 8 WEEKS OLD.MY WIFE IS FROM JAPAN SO I HAVE SOME FRIENDS THERE." Since YOU = NEAL, idiot... YOU claimed to own a gamebred Tosa. Understand? QUIT FCKING LYING YOU SAP! Now, about me not proving that runt Tosas are APBT's? Are you telling me that I posted that Touryukai stuff for nothing? Like 6 different tournaments detailed there and the dogs that were in each bout give a description... almost ALL of them are labeled TosaxAPBT dogs OR they aren't labeled that at all and just passed off as them. Looking at the pictures of the latter ones and reading off the description of their weight will tell you that those happen to be TosaxAPBT mixes too even though they aren't labeled that. Do you really think that a male Tosa will be 78lbs. idiot?!! You probably do because you're clueless like that. I've already told you that even most of the middleweights have APBT in them... almost ALL the lightweights do. Any good Japanese dogman will admit this. Why does your feeble mind not want to accept this? You've said before: "There is NO pit blood in their Tosa. Not at all." My Proof from Touryukai (being a member and all) to shut you the fck up: Unzip (extract) this zip file to your desktop and click on the webpage 'Welcome.htm'. When it loads... welcome to the truth of discovering that the Japanese routinely mix their Tosas with APBT and have them compete in some of their largest popular tournaments! Size: 124KB's http://r1422379.hostultra.com/Touryukai1.zip It's your cue to shut up now.. LOSER! It's like you're still a child.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/17/2004
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Actually Snoopy, I'm 26 years old. Far from a "child". I've been involved with dogs almost all of my life and have been hunting for some odd years now. I can guarantee that I've seen more wolves than you have in your life.. that is if you've ever even seen a "real" one away from your National Geographic shows. I've been to hog catch shows.. I've seen "real" pit fights.. I have friends that are involved in the "scene" in both North America AND Japan. I've been a spectator at some matches before in the past however I do not fight my dogs. I know what goes on. I'm aware of all of the "scenes" and know quite a bit about them.. I'm no outsider to them like FireDragons is. This idiot (probably you, it would have to be) thinks that the Kochi Fighting Center is something to be spoken of in high regard. Complete moron. It's the biggest joke in Japan.. just a tourist attraction. All of the "real" dogmen have bouts that are held in private locations and are invite-only.. for family, friends, and select friends of friends. Wolves have been defeated in the pit against Pitbulls that were matched into them clear back in the 1800's. Even nowadays the same thing would happen... only it would be a lot quicker. Why? Well let's see here... the Pitbulls from the 1800's weren't of the larger size that they are today and 2 centuries ago Pitbulls had just started being "selectively bred" for the pit fights. This happened starting around 1835. Since then and up till now they've increased majorly in size and have had the benefit of the past 2 centuries of being selectively bred. Since wolves did infact get whipped in the past (even with the female around her cubs) they would most DEFINITELY get murdered NOW! I just explained why! If you can't even understand this then atleast try it sometime. Buy a gamebred Pitbull.. grab a wolf and make them fight in a pit, ring, octagon, whatever. You'll see the truth then.. away from your National Geographic hype. Wolves can't fight and don't bite as hard. I'll be an OLD MAN before you can even produce 1 picture that is from a wolf (1 bite) that's infact WORSE than the pics that I've shown of what a single Pitbull with 1 bite has done. And that Pitbull was only 40lbs!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/17/2004
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Wolf - Canis lupus Stage - adult Source - Purchased from dealer Area - Probably N. America ZYGOMATIC WIDTH 137mm http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Wolf/wolf.htm Greenland Dog (Husky) - Canis familiaris ZYGOMATIC WIDTH 134mm http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Greenland/greenland.htm African Hunting Dog - Lycaon pictus ZYGOMATIC WIDTH - 150mm http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Afhd/afhd.htm There's only a 3mm difference between the gray wolf's zigomatic arch width and the husky's zygomatic arch width within these 2 different specimens. This dog isn't even a Pitbull! The African Hunting Dog specimen has wider cheek bones (Zygomatic Arch Width) than all of these specimen including the wolf. It bests the wolf by 13mm's in Zigomatic Width and they only get up to around 50lbs max. How would you explain this Snoopy? Please don't give me the "The wolf was a small specimen, probably a female!" bs. Looks like what I've believed for so long isn't true.. most Pitbulls probably would be able to compete head on if not beat gray wolve's zygomatic arch width consistently.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/17/2004
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It's quite clear that the standard APBT will have a wider zygomatic arch than a Husky. Huskies have around the same ZW it appears as the Gray Wolf (or atleast in this specimen comparison). German Shepherds don't bite very hard, the opposite of what FireDragons thinks, mainly due to their smaller width in the zygomatic arch and the lesser development of their masseter muscles. APBT's should have the widest zygomatic arch and the most heavily developed masseter muscles, for masseter muscle connection to both the zygomatic arch and the sagittal crest, of any dog breed. This would explain, scientifically, why they have the hardest bite out of all dog breeds. That and their determination and intensity that drives their bite is far beyond any dog breed. This would play as a mental factor... not a physical factor of actual skull morphology such as the size of their sagittal crest, development of their masseter muscles, zygomatic width etc. German Shepherd - Canis Familiaris ZYGOMATIC WIDTH - 112mm http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Alsatian/alsatian.htm Only 112mm ZW (Zygomatic Width). That's a far cry from a Gray Wolf, Husky, and especially the African Hunting Dog at 150mm ZW. I've looked around and I'm finding no Pitbull skulls that detail the ZW or anything. I'm betting that the ZW of a Pit will be greater than the African Hunting Dog's or ballpark to it. I've come up with no sagittal crest information on the Pitbull either. Still though, enough evidence has been brought to the table that shows that the Gray Wolve's ZW isn't beyond that of your standard dog breed for the most part. ZW, masseter development, and sagittal crest size vary greatly from breed to breed. The breeds with the higher numbers will infact beat the wolf in this department.. sorry Snoopy. Boxer Dog - Canis familiaris Sex - male Stage - adult (12yrs) Source - Destroyed by vet Acknowledgement - Courtesy of S. Hamilton-Dyer ZYGOMATIC WIDTH 124mm http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Boxer/boxer.htm ZW of this Boxer is rated at 124mm. This lower number suggests that huskies and wolves have the capacity to bite harder. I can believe that.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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"The two zygomatic arches govern the total width of the skull. They vary in shape between the breeds - long-nosed breeds have a fairly straight arch while in short-nosed breeds it is very curved." http://www.worldofpetsni.com/anatomy.htm Short nosed breeds = Brachycephalic shaped skulls. Examples would be Bulldogs, Pitbulls, Bullmastiffs. Generally the more curved the better.. as the more acutely angled and curved the arches are the greater the width. The greater the zygomatic width the more bite strength capacity. Longer-nosed breeds (Dolichocephalics and Mesocephalics) like borzoi's don't have as curved arches but have fairly straight arches. This means that they have less capacity for bite strength due to the zygomatic arches being narrower. Their cheek bones aren't as wide. If the zygomatic arches are narrower.. there's less room for masseter muscle development and attachment. "The mentioned Sagittal crest is a bony protrusion whose growth is induced by the muscles of the jaw. Within certain limits the size of the crest may be modified by strain put upon it from the muscles. But much more important is the absolute size of the skull. A small dog will never be able to grow a Sagittal crest for the simple reason that his skull provides so much area for the muscles of the jaw, that the muscles will never even reach the top of the skull. Only the meeting of the muscles from the two sides of the head an top of the skull will induce the growth of a Sagittal crest. Thus this crest is a means for larger dogs to provide sufficient area for their jaw muscles on their relative small skulls. Such and may other laws are easily verified on our collections." http://www.nmbe.ch/deutsch/531_6_2.html "Within certain limits the size of the crest may be modified by strain put upon it from the muscles." Meaning that to a certain extent.. the sagittal crest can grow in size through strenuous muscle-intensive exercise. The temporal muscles, that attach to the sagittal crest, can be strained enough to actually induce the crest's growth is what this is saying. When building a Pitbull's bite strength through "bite work" as it's called.. springpoles are used. I imagine that this may induce some small growth of the sagittal crest over an elongated amount of time given enough stress on the upper-jaw temporal muscle. It's already a given that the lower-jaw masseter muscles are worked greatly through these exercises.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Grunt says, It's quite clear that the standard APBT will have a wider zygomatic arch than a Husky. Huskies have around the same ZW it appears as the Gray Wolf (or atleast in this specimen comparison). German Shepherds don't bite very hard, the opposite of what FireDragons thinks, mainly due to their smaller width in the zygomatic arch and the lesser development " CITE YOUR SOURCES DUDE. YOU ARE MAKING STATEMENTS THAT ARE NOT TRUE AND YOU SITE DOES NOT SAY THIS!! The pit bull is a mix between the two...and the terriers are small hunting dogs, not a powerful fighting dog such as the Mastiff. It doesn't say anything about a pit bull have a wider arch or more arch...in fact, this skull type is the same as a Pekinese. How hard to they bite? Or a pug? Haha! This site on PIT BULLS says the pug has nothing to do with bite force - LOSER ! "Jaw: Depth from the top of the head to the bottom of the jaw is important. The jaw is closed by the Temporal Fossa muscle exerting pressure on the Coronoid process. The deeper the head at this point, (that is, between the zygomatic arch and the angular process of the bottom of the jaw) the more likely the dog is to have leverage advantage both in closing the jaw and in keeping it closed. A straight, box-like muzzle and well developed mandible will not have much to do with the biting power but will endure more punishment. "Lippy" dogs are continually fanging themselves in a fight, which works greatly to their disadvantage." http://www.vaxxine.com/rarities/breed%20standards/American%20Pit%20Bull%20Terrier.htm YOU KEEP SAYING WHAT A BIG HEAD THE PIT HAS...THE FIGHTING PAGE SAYS A "BIG HEAD" IS A DISADVANTE (AGAIN, IT STRESSES THE IMPORTANCE OF WEIGHT, WHICH YOU DENY!!) "Head: Varies more in the present day pit bull. More than any other part of the body, probably because its conformation has the least to do with whether he wins or loses. However, there are certain attributes which appear to be of advantage. First it's overall size. Too big a head simply carries more weight and increases the chances of having to fight a bigger dog. Too small a head is easily punished by a nose fighter and is especially easy for an ear fighter to shake. In an otherwise well proportioned dog, the head will appear to be about two thirds the width of the shoulders and about 25% wider at the cheeks than the neck at the base of the skull." http://www.vaxxine.com/rarities/breed%20standards/American%20Pit%20Bull%20Terrier.htm "The head is of medium length, with a broad, flat skull, and a wide, deep (wide and deep muzzle is very important) muzzle. Why wide and deep? A straight, box-like muzzle and well developed mandible will not have much to do with the biting power but will endure more punishment." http://www.apbtconformation.com/apbt_head.htm "The head cannot, must not be overly massive. A massive head will NEVER give advantage to the dog when doing the jobs they are bred for (contrary to urban myths SEE RATIONALE BELOW) on the contrary a too big head will take the advantage away from a dog. It is not the size of the head that gives power to the bite it is proper mechanics and structure." RATIONALE: A dog with an overly massive head is disadvantaged because they must carry the extra weight of the skull bone and associated meat with the neck. This creates a need for a heavier chest and shoulders to compensate (loaded shoulders-a fault), which takes away from the balance between the forequarters and the hindquarters reducing the efficiency of overall movement and agility particularly lateral movement. AMSTAFF BREEDER: THIS (oversized heads with weak lower jaw) IS BECOMING COMMON IN SOME OF THE AKC AMSTAFF, WHICH HAS BEEN CRITICIZED FOR BECOMING A HEAD AND CHEST BREED FORSAKING BALANCE. http://www.apbtconformation.com/apbt_head.htm

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Trained MD's CAN EASILY DETERMINE IF THE WOUNDS ARE FROM A DOG OR A WOLF. A wolf bites crushes the bone and a bite on the arm generally results in a severed limb. Dog's have dull, short teeth and they can't bite as hard ... so, their wounds are often multiple. "Daniel had lacerations of the face, left thigh, left calf, and right thigh, and abrasions and bruises of the abdomen and chest. Mr. Mahlandt was permitted to state that Daniel had indicated that he had gone under the fence. Mr. Mahlandt and Mr. Poos, about a month after the incident, examined the fence to determine what caused Daniel's lacerations. Mr. Mahlandt felt that they did not look like animal bites. The parallel scars on Daniel's thigh appeared to match the configuration of the barbs or tines on the fence. The expert as to the behavior of wolves opined that the lacerations were not wolf bites or wounds caused by wolf claws. Wolves have powerful jaws and a wolf bite will result in massive crushing or severing of a limb. He stated that if Sophie had bitten Daniel there would have been clear apposition of teeth and massive crushing of Daniel's hands and arms which were not injured. Also, if Sophie had pulled Daniel under the fence, tooth marks on the foot or leg would have been present, although Sophie possessed enough strength to pull the boy under the fence." Mahlandt v. Wild Canid Survival & Research Center, Inc. 588 F.2d 626 (8th Cir. 1979) How strong are a gray wolves' jaws? (top) The massive molars and powerful jaws of a wolf are used to crush the bones of its prey. The biting capacity of a wolf is 1,500 pounds of pressure per square inch. The strength of a wolf's jaws makes it possible to bite through a moose femur in six to eight bites. People always think their pets are safe, but: "dog dogs bites attacks 'U.S. Postal Service' Woman tells mail carrier 'dog won't bite', pit bull mauls mail carrier CA The U.S. Postal Service wants to thank a man for "saving the life of a 50-year-old letter carrier who was bitten about the face, head and arms last Wednesday so severely she had to be hospitalized..." The carrier had just received assurances from a woman that her dog was not a biter... "She had blood all over her face. She started going into shock,' he said. As bystanders called 9-1-1, Jaimez said, the carrier kept repeating, "Don't let the dog get me!' "I told her, 'No, I have the dog. I have the dog.'' [Whittier Daily} http://radio.weblogs.com/0107233/2003/06/03.html For a comparison of bites, see: J Forensic Sci. 1991 Jul;36(4):1256-61. Fatal and near-fatal animal bite injuries. Clark MA, Sandusky GE, Hawley DA, Pless JE, Fardal PM, Tate LR. A dog is rarely able to bite an arm or leg off unless it chews for a long time. Wild animals can bit an arm off with one bite.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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well looks like the little troll f.d. has more than meet his match!someone that knows and is smart enough to shut his troll-hole! snoopy has no idea of anything besides a wolf kills to eat.i can not hardly believe she takes off on this wolf crap,based on what wolves do in the wild!big deal a pack of wolves kill a weak old moose.what could that mean in a one on one fight?she acts like wolves seek hard fights!that is not the way they work.clueless little nature girl!anyone could read f.d.'s old posts and see he just got more and more into insults.stupid insults.like a collie could whip three game pit bulls!anyone that ever saw a pit fight would no a poodle are collie would have zero chance!LOL AT THE FOOLS!WAY TO GO GRUNT!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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WOLVES KILL ALL KINDS OF DOGS AND DON'T NEED HELP. GENERALLY, DOG FIGHTS DON'T END UP WITH A DEAD DOG, EVEN PIT FIGHTS. A FIGHT WITH A WOLF RESULTS IN A DEAD DOG ALMOST ALWAYS!! "Jimenez said he was on his way to investigate the death of a Rottweiler that belonged to a rancher at the other end of the valley from the Robinetts, closer to Dubois. �We suspect it�s a wolf kill,� he said. �The radio-collared wolf was right there. The Robinetts almost lost their Great Pyrenees to wolves Tuesday night, about 50 yards from their house. It was the second attack by wolves on a Robinett dog in a month. An attack in August, also near the house, was fatal. �Everything just happened so fast and so quick,� she said. �It sounded like a huge dog fight. That�s all I could hear. It was dead still when I went out. I had no idea that anything was around.� As soon as it was light enough to see in the morning, Robinett ventured out and found Booger, a Great Pyrenees guard dog, lying in grass about 150 yards from the house. The Robinetts now lock up their dogs at night because of the wolf problem. They have lost seven dogs in three years." http://www.billingsgazette.com/wyoming/20000925_ywolves.html SMART GUARD DOGS DON'T ENGAGE WOLVES. THEY BARK AND RUN!!! "The Chief Joseph pack killed 6 sheep at a private ranch in the Tom Miner Basin, just north of Yellowstone National Park on the 20th. Four guard dogs at the ranch were barking and highly upset by the presence of the wolves but did not prevent some loss. This ranch has had 2 guard dogs and several sheep killed by wolves since the reintroduction. WS investigated and confirmed that about 5 wolves were involved." http://mountain-prairie.fws.gov/wolf/wk120399.htm The WOLF is NOT a DOG. Physical changes in the dog gave it a weak jaw and little bite. NO DOG CAN COMPARE TO A WOLF. There is just no comparison. "The oldest confirmed domestic dog found in the world is from Iraq, dated at 12,000 years BP (Olsen). In North America a great deal of controversy surrounds the issue; the oldest confirmed find is from the Jaquar Cave, Idaho, with an age of approximately 9,140 years, but skulls found in glacial muck north of Fairbanks may be slightly older, and a mandible from Old Crow, Yukon has been estimated at as much as 30,000 years old. The process of domestication evenually crippled the wolf strain involved, as their jaws got shorter and their teeth crowded, eliminating one of their main hunting advantages, powerful jaws combined with very specialized tooth development. Although some huskies continue to treat humans as equals (as do wolves in captivity), none of the 200 distinct breeds of domestic dogs are anything like wolves. This is most notable in the size of their brains - in a wolf-sized domestic dog, the brain is often as much as 20% smaller than in wolves (McLoughlin). Despite this, many humans today continue to think of wolves in much the same way as they do their spaniel. Unable to contemplate the wilderness because they have so successfully insulated themselves from it, they often try to use their dogs and wolves as a bridge to understanding, much to the detriment of the dignity of the wolf. " http://www.explorenorth.com/library/yafeatures/bl-wolf1.htm ALL DOGS HAVE WEAK JAWS COMPARED TO WILD ANIMALS!!!!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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All dogs have WEAK jaws. All your talk about arches shows nothing but that you are stupid! haha! loser, get over it! "The process of domestication eventually crippled the wolf strain involved, as their jaws got shorter and their teeth crowded, eliminating one of their main hunting advantages, powerful jaws combined with very specialized tooth development. Although some huskies continue to treat humans as equals (as do wolves in captivity), none of the 200 distinct breeds of domestic dogs are anything like wolves. This is most notable in the size of their brains - in a wolf-sized domestic dog, the brain is often as much as 20% smaller than in wolves (McLoughlin). Despite this, many humans today continue to think of wolves in much the same way as they do their spaniel. Unable to contemplate the wilderness because they have so successfully insulated themselves from it, they often try to use their dogs and wolves as a bridge to understanding, much to the detriment of the dignity of the wolf. " http://www.explorenorth.com/library/yafeatures/bl-wolf1.htm ALL DOGS HAVE WEAK JAWS COMPARED TO WILD ANIMALS!!!! YOU MUST HAVE A DOG BRAIN. Now they know that wolves' brain is 30% larger!!! Haha! The dog has WEAK jaws and as the medical doctors say ... they can only do soft tissue damage, not damage to the deeper structure.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Yea, yea! Two zygomatic arches!! Idiots! You are like kids that don't even know what you read !!! Read this, punk ! WOLVES KILL ALL KINDS OF DOGS AND DON'T NEED HELP. GENERALLY, DOG FIGHTS DON'T END UP WITH A DEAD DOG, EVEN PIT FIGHTS. A FIGHT WITH A WOLF RESULTS IN A DEAD DOG ALMOST ALWAYS!! "Jimenez said he was on his way to investigate the death of a Rottweiler that belonged to a rancher at the other end of the valley from the Robinetts, closer to Dubois. �We suspect it�s a wolf kill,� he said. �The radio-collared wolf was right there. The Robinetts almost lost their Great Pyrenees to wolves Tuesday night, about 50 yards from their house. It was the second attack by wolves on a Robinett dog in a month. An attack in August, also near the house, was fatal. �Everything just happened so fast and so quick,� she said. �It sounded like a huge dog fight. That�s all I could hear. It was dead still when I went out. I had no idea that anything was around.� As soon as it was light enough to see in the morning, Robinett ventured out and found Booger, a Great Pyrenees guard dog, lying in grass about 150 yards from the house. The Robinetts now lock up their dogs at night because of the wolf problem. They have lost seven dogs in three years." http://www.billingsgazette.com/wyoming/20000925_ywolves.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Hey, you must have a dog brain, bigDG !! haha! Loser! You said, "nonsense prove?just as Khan said on the other site ''when a big bad farm dog is killed its a wolves gang'' NOT ONE WOLF DUMB DUMB ASS!you are just stuck " Actually, the pack consists of the mom, dad, and offspring. They are immature wolves in most cases. When they fight a weak animal such as a dog, it's almost always mono. It's all it takes, loser. DOGS HAVE WEAK JAWS COMPARED TO WOLVES!!! "The process of domestication evenually crippled the wolf strain involved, as their jaws got shorter and their teeth crowded, eliminating one of their main hunting advantages, powerful jaws combined with very specialized tooth development. Although some huskies continue to treat humans as equals (as do wolves in captivity), none of the 200 distinct breeds of domestic dogs are anything like wolves. This is most notable in the size of their brains - in a wolf-sized domestic dog, the brain is often as much as 20% smaller than in wolves (McLoughlin). Despite this, many humans today continue to think of wolves in much the same way as they do their spaniel. Unable to contemplate the wilderness because they have so successfully insulated themselves from it, they often try to use their dogs and wolves as a bridge to understanding, much to the detriment of the dignity of the wolf. " http://www.explorenorth.com/library/yafeatures/bl-wolf1.htm the gag here is that the dog is domestic and eats cereal. Pits have been bred on cereal. They have weak, whimpy jaws and only bite a million times to cause injury. NO PIT has ever killed a healthy adult human.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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It's funny, these 2 idiots have had several MONTHS now to come up with some pictures of a wolf (1) that has made a single bite (1) which has decapitated/snapped bone/caused "hamburger effect" to a healthy medium-sized to larger animal or human. They can't come up with anything because wolves can't do it! They need whole packs to even get anything done. That's lame. African Hunting Dogs supposedly have one of the highest success rates for taking kills... Wolves have a very low success rate even when in packs against weak, young, and injured animals!! This says everything right here. African Hunting dogs, I suspect, can also bite harder than the Gray Wolf. I've posted a source that shows that the African Hunting Dog had a 13mm greater Zygomatic Width than the Gray Wolf specimen. Comparing the skulls of the African Hunting Dog to the Gray Wolf makes the Gray Wolf appear to be the opposite of "badass", but infact quite "wimpy" in terms of bite and overall dentition. http://www.skullsunlimited.com/graphics/African_Hunting_Dog-lg.jpg http://www.skullsunlimited.com/graphics/Gray_Wolf-lg.jpg Wolves probably have around the same bite strength as a Husky, maybe a bit greater. The Zygomatic Width from those 2 specimens doesn't lie. =D

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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German Shepherds don't bite very hard, the opposite of what FireDragons thinks, mainly due to their smaller width in the zygomatic arch and the lesser development. FireDragons said: "CITE YOUR SOURCES DUDE. YOU ARE MAKING STATEMENTS THAT ARE NOT TRUE AND YOU SITE DOES NOT SAY THIS!!" I did idiot.. open your eyes and actually read once in a while (assuming you can read?). The German Shepherd specimen had a Zygomatic Width of only 112mm. I gave my sources for all of that. Here it is again: German Shepherd - Canis Familiaris ZYGOMATIC WIDTH - 112mm http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Alsatian/alsatian.htm German Shepherds don't have heavily developed masseter muscles (there's 2 of them) like American Pitbulls. This is a common fact and doesn't need a source.. it's evident even within the phenotype. If you need a source genius, find one.. it shouldn't be hard. Google it like you google all your knowledge about wolves (which is around nothing). You and Snoopy NEVER give any good information, pictures, facts, or anything. It's ALL opinion!! No concrete evidence like what I bring to the table. As for me mentioning Pugs? Wtf are you on crack you clown? I never mentioned Pugs. Lay off the pipe pinhead.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Bev (aka FireDragons) wrote: "Longer jaws enable the wolf to hold larger prey." Longer jaws aren't needed.. if anything, longer jaws usually result in having narrower Zygomatic Arch Width thereby reducing bite strength capacity. Therefore you're wrong.. again. "The two zygomatic arches govern the total width of the skull. They vary in shape between the breeds - long-nosed breeds have a fairly straight arch while in short-nosed breeds it is very curved." http://www.worldofpetsni.com/anatomy.htm Short nosed breeds = Brachycephalic shaped skulls. Examples would be Bulldogs, Pitbulls, and Bullmastiffs. Longer-nosed breeds with longer jaws can't generate as much bite strength as shorter-jawed animals with wider Zygomatic Arches. This may look familiar to you: "The only breed with an angulation around the zygomatic arch that approaches that of the wolf is the American Pit Bull Terrier/American Staffordshire Terrier. Pit/AmStaffs also have a relatively short jaw, giving their heads a more cat-like structure: Broad + Short + Strong Muscles = Lots of Bite Strength. Breeds with long, narrow heads have even straighter angulation around the cheekbone, and therefore an even weaker jaw." http://www.ashgi.org/articles/teeth_bite_me.htm Do you see how you're wrong now? Instead of having LONGER muzzles they have WIDER shorter muzzles, which actually allows them to grab MORE area of their prey than would a longer narrower muzzle. This is a simple concept. Do your homework please. Thanks. "The pit does not have prey, just a bowl of cereal that a baby could eat." Sure. That's why every Pitbulldog I know of is on the Bones And Raw Food Diet (BARF). This means that they eat and digest raw meat, vegetables/fruits, and yes.. even bones. "The pit has a pug muzzle because it has no game. The larger game requires larger jaws." Are you fcking stupid? Seriously.. the Pug is a TOY breed. It has the same shape skull as the Pitbull and Bulldog but that's it. Both have Brachycephalic shaped skulls. HOWEVER, moron, the size of their skulls is GREATLY different.. not to mention their jaws are greatly different in size and the size of the animals are greatly different between these breeds. Pitbulls have wider jaws (as they're shorter and broader) than any wolf. Pitbulls bait Bears that can weigh around a Ton and up. Pitbulls still Bear bait, even today they do in Pakistan and other countries. There's been pictures posted of this. This isn't big enough game for you? How about Pitbulls taking down 300lb.+ wild boar on hunts and in hog catch events? You need to buy a clue. "You are so silly to equate these small silly jaws to somehow being powerful!! haha! So funny. We all had a good laugh at you!" Skull Morphology of the Gray Wolf suggests that it isn't much different than many domestic dog breeds. Even scientists sometimes have a hard time distinguishing the difference between the two! I've already proven that some select dog breeds have around the same Zygomatic Width as Gray Wolves and some can beat their cheekbone width. African Hunting Dogs beat wolves here too. Wolve's jaws are rather weak compared to many domestic dog breeds and African Hunting Dogs. Skull Morphology proves this. I've already given too many sources to real evidence and proof of what I'm saying. The problem with you is that you're just a kid and can't read and comprehend factual data. It's too much for you to take in. You're in DENIAL. I recommend you get out of that stage. Go see a doctor maybe.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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I know lots of guys your age and they love to just lie through their teeth. If you think a dog has stronger bite than a wolf you are just an idiot. It is a fact that the wolves jaws are stronger and have to be. Have you ever seen two pit bulls take down a bison? Do it then, and show the pictures. You jackass. 26 is not far from teenage boy in my book. I just watched a show on animal planet about bull baiting. They put like 7 or 8 pit bulls in with a bull just to see how long they would last before they died. Same with bear baiting. The ones that lasted the longest were kept. They never killed the bear or the bull. I have had friends with pet wolves. I have pet them but I was mostly afraid of them. Have you stuck a bull knuckle the size of a softball in your pits mouth yet? Could it even fit in its mouth? Does your pit eat bones. Or do you feed him dog food. Loser!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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ROFL! Talk about a piece of sh!t! Anyone want to see how weakly built these wolves really are? Have a look: SOURCE: http://home.swipnet.se/~w-27834/wolf/pictures/thumbs/arkivsaml.html Notice the one on the main page.. LMFAO! There's 8 pages of wolf pictures on that site. ALL of them have 'snipey' long narrow little muzzles! I've had gerbils with wider jaws than that! HaHa. This thing would get eaten by a rabbit if they ever fought.. I couldn't imagine what a Pitbull would do to it! Here's a Wolf that was skinned and examined. SOURCE: http://www.soappuppy.com/wolf/big/1skinned.jpg It's teeth are infact quite large but this thing looks like the weakest creature known to man. Even the people that skinned it feel the same way. "Thick winter fur appeared to have formed the bulk of the wolf's mass, for after skinning the animal resembled a greyhound or a cursorial cat. The limbs were extremely long and slender, the chest and hips narrow, the back long and muscular." SOURCE: http://www.soappuppy.com/wolf/skinning.html Wolves are built like puny little Greyhounds. This proves it and it was a 90lb. Wolf! This is 15lbs. above their average weight here in NA. Take off the double-coat of fur and it's down to 70-75lbs! They said that the coat of the animal is so thick and heavy that it weighs in between 10-20lbs. It's practically all of the wolf's mass as this states "Thick winter fur appeared to have formed the bulk of the wolf's mass". Wolves have a lot of hair, Pitbulls have a lot of muscle. Nice trade off huh?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Answer by macker says, "a wolf has longer teeth thats true, but their cranium doesnt house the jaw muscles of a pitbull. Not one of those 30 pounders, but a 70-90 pound pit due to it's head size. Pits dont have the strngest jaws though a dogue de bordeux has a stronger bite, so does an american bulldog to a lesser extent." NO MACKER !!! YOU FLUNK. The dog has weak jaws compared to a wolf...that's ANY DOG. The dog was a mutation that was weaker and domestic. Pit bulls would never worry me. A wolf would. You have NO scientific evidence that you have cited here this is contrary to the superiority of the wolf...plus pit bulls are so weak they only kill by biting someone all over .. and only the sick or the child.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Hey Loser!! Get on with your life Mr. Grunt!!! haha! Grunt said, "Notice the one on the main page.. LMFAO! ALL of them have 'snipey' long narrow little muzzles! I've had gerbils with wider jaws than that! HaHa. This thing would get eaten by a rabbit if they ever fought.. I couldn't imagine what a Pitbull would do to it!" Again, the comparison to the wolf and dog shows that what you are saying fits the Pit Bull also fits Pikanese and other sissy dogs !!! Haha! Loser! It has nothing to do with biting hard, in fact, they can take on bigger game. Hey dude...cite some sources that says ANY dog can bite harder that a wolf ... cite a source that is not run by a moron such as yourself! Haha! Loser!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Snoopy wrote: "Have you stuck a bull knuckle the size of a softball in your pits mouth yet? Could it even fit in its mouth? Does your pit eat bones. Or do you feed him dog food." Bull knuckle in his mouth? No sir, I haven't. Fully inflated regulation-size basketball? Sure thing.. was popped within about 3 seconds if even. I'd like to see that puny little narrow snout of a wolf crunch one of those basketballs fully inflated at regulation size.. let alone be able to carry it around in it's mouth! It's mouth isn't wide enough to do this!! Think about it, it's not. It's just long and weak.. that's it. Looks like a slim little beak with absolutely no crushing power. Does my Pit eat bones? I have 2, a male and a female and they sure do. Steak bones and pork bones they'll snap first bite, unlike a wolf. Both are on the BARF diet. I had them on Martin K9 human-grade kibble until they were about 3 months old then it was straight to BARF from there. Could it fit in his mouth? Well, you tell me... http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adam69/detail?.dir=/b4ed&.dnm=29a8.jpg In that pic, my male 'Max' was around 72lbs. or so. He was still a puppy then... only about 1yr. and 3 months or so. He's currently 2 years old and is at a solid and conditioned 76lbs. and holding. He WAS NOT conditioned at all in this pic.. yet still much more massive, muscular, and more powerful than any wolf even double his size. He's quite tall and long compared to the majority of the Pits that I've been around (being too many to count). His teeth are huge and he's got a 23" head on him. Maybe even bigger now.. I measured it when he was a bit over a year old. His bite redefines "power". I'll be sure to add some more pics for you. =D Maybe even some springpole ones.. or some where he's popping a basketball or hanging on a tire. Then I'll say "Can a wolf do this?". LoL. Most definitely the answer will be "NO, but... <lies go here>".

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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PIT BULLS HAVE EVEN BEEN WHIPPED BY VERY SMALL DOGS ... POODLES AND EVEN ELDERLY CHIHUAHUAS !!!! Answer by snoopy Submitted on 7/18/2004 "They all have to be fitted with spiked collars and" the spiked collars will not save them. Unlike dogs that only do soft tissue damage, the wolf can bite deep into the structures, including bones. The spiked collars prevent the dog from immediately being killed. A pit bull even loses to chihauhau at times!!! Pit bull attacks woman, small dog - Owner ordered to remove dog from county 2004-06-10 by Wendy Giroux Mercer Island Reporter An elderly woman and her small dog were attacked by a pit bull while walking in the area of East Mercer Way and S.E. 35th Place last week. A witness who was riding his bike west on the bike path shortly before 5 p.m. June 1 told officers that he had just passed the woman, and thought that the dachshund/chihuahua mix and the pit bull were both with her. But when he heard a yelp, he turned around and saw the pit bull attacking the woman and her dog, according to a police report. ........the pit bull, which ran away. A person driving past stopped to pick up the woman and her 10-year-old dog, ``Amber,'' to take them to the hospital." http://www.mi-reporter.com/sited/story/html/165909

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Here Snoopy.. here's some more of my male APBT's puppy pics that I've had archived away. I just uploaded them so you can view them. Notice how "small" he is? I mean afterall.. ALL APBT's are just small dogs right? http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adam69/detail?.dir=/b4ed&.dnm=876c.jpg http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adam69/detail?.dir=/b4ed&.dnm=d17a.jpg http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adam69/detail?.dir=/b4ed&.dnm=5257.jpg http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adam69/detail?.dir=/b4ed&.dnm=bd55.jpg PS: In the teeth shot.. his fangs are so long that they were hidden inside his thick gums... but as you can see they're of great size. His neck is probably triple what any wolf's neck is in mass. Again, he was unconditioned and only a bit over a year old in ALL of these pics.. they were all taken the same day. He has PLENTY of extra skin that is loose as you can see. Wait until I get the new ones up.. as now he's completely conditioned. You'll sh!t your pants and bow to the APBT. APBT > Wolf.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Even if the pit has a very small dog the size of a cat by the throat, he doesn't have the bite to inflict serious injury. Haha! EVen the little dog doesn't need a spike colloar!!!! Council approves pit bull restrictions June 24, 2004 "The council voted 7-4 to approve the measure just four hours after a pit bull running loose in South Boston mauled a small dog, gripping the 22-pound Shiba Inu in its jaws " "A pitbull lunged at him, sinking its teeth into Rocky's neck and swinging him around like a rag doll until a neighbor clubbed the pit bull with a bat." � Copyright 2004 Globe Newspaper Company. http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/06/24/council_approves_pit_bull_restrictions/ YEA, THE pit bull GRABS AND SHAKES AND SHAKES...BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE THE POWER. SO, EVEN WITH A DOG THE SIZE OF A KITTY CAT, THE PIT BULL JUST SHAKES AND SHAKES AND THE LITTLE DOG IS FINE !!! HA-HA!! Loser!!! Get on with your wretched life!!!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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By the way Snoopy.. I watched your National Geographic Presents: 'Legend Of The Wolf' show. HILARIOUS MAN!!! Thanks for allowing me to have SO MANY laughs bro! My favorite parts are as follows: When the wolf pack in Spain wanted to feast on all of those sheep being guarded by that 1 single Mastiff and the narrator said "In full daylight.. the wolves have ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE of taking the Mastiff." This was a whole pack that was surrounding the Mastiff and all of those sheep! HAHA!!! Looks like taking on a catchweight APBT is COMPLETELY OUT OF THE QUESTION! The narrator also said "In order to bring down large prey, they need all the fangs that they can get." He was talking about the wolves and how they shouldn't injure each other, being a pack and fellow hunters, over dominance before a hunt as they will need every single wolf just to be able to even bring down large prey. Now THAT is funny. The narrator also said "Most avoid humans, dogs, and other wolves." I wonder why? "Adult boar are capable of wounding or killing a wolf." How come a single APBT can subdue a 300lb.+ wild boar? I'm not getting it... Narrator: "The Pilgrims made up bloodthirsty stories about the wolf which led to superstition" In other words.. wolves are WEAK and all hype. He was also talking about how they needed to rely on "coordinated hunting" in order to achieve any kind of success (which we all know is little to none even in large packs). I noticed the following as well: The whole pack has to tug on the animal just to be able to rip into it (and barely at that)! And even then, they were doing a HORRIBLE job. Gnawing on the dead dolphin on the beach was hilarious! The wolf didn't even leave bite marks on a couple of the gnawings! So sad. When those wolves killed that small female boar they had to tug on her when consuming her and they were ONLY pulling out tufts of hair from her! I saw like 0 blood! ROFL! 'Lobo' the wolf was barely even splashed by sea water from the incoming tide and he yelped and ran off! OMFG. These animals are complete panzies. I know for a fact now that ANY domestic dog could take one in a fight. But it gets better!! Most of this show was showing wolves eating grapes (because of the high sugar) and one catching a field mouse! NO LARGE PREY! Even the female boar that was killed was small compared to the male boar that are 300lbs+ that APBT's catch! Lmao. During the territorial dispute between the "intruder" wolves and the other wolves.. all it resulted in was weak face grabs, overpowering through specific dominant stances, hilariously weak "threat displays" where teeth were bared and growling.. and one wolf with it's paws up in the air on it's back being a submissive little b!tch! They don't even fight! They try and punk each other out.. that's all. Hell, there wasn't ANY blood that I could see and definitely no broken bones or hamburger effect you idiot! They aren't even capable of this with just one bite like I've been saying! They're WEAK biters and they don't even shake or fight. Pitiful cowards. During one of the dominance disputes between the Alpha male and the subordinates the Alpha only relied on threat displays.. once again.. and grabs to the side of the face.. then released and kept doing it. Wolves are weak and are total cowards. This proves it beyond a doubt now! Thanks for telling me to watch that Snoopy! I REALLY enjoyed it!! It's funny because even your own major source.. whom you've trusted so much and refer to so much turned their back on you! ROFL. That's right.. NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC. Even they are telling it like it is! Good for them.. now you know that even a whole pack of wolves couldn't even "take" a single Mastiff guarding sheep in the daylight! Passes out from laughter

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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Oh yeah, almost forgot.. the narrator of the "Legend Of The Wolf" also said that there were many dog breeds that were created to keep whole wolf packs at bay (which we already know). This would include killing some of them if they approached the livestock that it was guarding! Looks like Snoopy's own source.. NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC.. has turned it's back on him and doesn't vouch for his totally assanine claims. THAT HAS TO SUCK! I recommened to anyone that wants some hardcore laughs to watch the "Legend Of The Wolf" on the National Geographic Channel! I'm sure there'll be some reruns. Even my wife was laughing at how skinny and weak all of these wolves were and at how long and narrow their little snouts were! They're like coyotes.. only a bit bigger! A Pitbull could take 2 of these or more at one time. These POS's don't even fight.. and they don't even know how to properly. They're worse than currs. It would be borderline "animal cruelty" to even allow one of these skinny little things into the ring with a Pitbull or a Tosa! It's so evident now!

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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Snoopy wrote: "They all have to be fitted with spiked collars and they sometimes still get killed. There also has to be more than one of them against a wolf plus they all have the collars. It's dog patty and wolf food. Get it right." That's funny because I don't remember seeing a spiked collar on the Spanish Mastiff that was guarding the livestock (sheep) on the National Geographic "Legend Of The Wolf" show. I could be wrong but I would've noticed it probably if it were there.. even under the dog's thick coat I'm sure I would have. The point is that the narrator from National Geographic even knows what's up... he knows that a whole pack of wolves "Would have absolutely NO CHANCE against the Mastiff during dayligh**** 7213 mauh i think york shire terriers should be with in 200$-500$ cause i really want one but i cant afford it cause I'm only 13 you should sell it to me !! :)

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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Yea, Grunt, you still don't get it. A picture taken with a short FL lense causes perspective distortion. They use it in movies this way. His teeth are not nearly as large as they appear and without measurement, what difference does it make? I have NEVER heard of a pit that killed a 300 pound boar...in fact Pete Sez, probably the most famous of the dog fights (now dead) said never take a dog on a hog hunt. Medical and other scientific evidence has shown that dogs only due soft tissue damage. If they bite enough, sure they can cause death....but that's why these dog fights can last an hour or more. The pit is just a weak animal that couldn't even break the neck of a Chihuahua that was smaller than a cat. Again, cite you sources, loser!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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Anyway, we have posted all the evidence about guard dogs. They only work by confusing the wolf. If the wolf is not disrupted, he kills the dog easily. That's a fact. If this is not true, show ANY credible evidence from someone that actually deals with these animals....Wildlife and Fish, the stockmen association. By the way...I put the number there for the stockman's association. Without exception, EVERY rancher knows that NO DOG can protect against a wolf if the wolf isn't disrupted. There are MANY using guard dogs now.....NO GUARD DOG HAS ever killed a wolf. Also, note that....you never have good sources, just bull. Ranchers lose a lot of money to wolves...if the guard dogs worked, they wouldn't lose the livestock. So, you think you know something they don't....you are really a FOOL. Haha! Loser! There are lots of "idiots" that assume. Just as YOU assume. They think a lion hunting dog hunts and kills lions!! haha! My bird dog doesn't even kill birds!!! Only someone very naive believes that the dog kills the wild animal.

Answer by macker
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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firedrag, what do you want, it's proven that larger cranims that house larger jaw muscles in animals that bite have a stronger bite! a wolf cn do more damage due to it's long canines but a pit has a breader head, i mean a big pit like i said the 90 pounders have a big enough head to house more muscle. i agree that a wolf could win if it gets a good hold on a pit but it mostly wont be able to, a wolf is not a fighter, not a pit fighter anyway. and a dogue de bordeux does have a stronger bite than a pit, thats what it was bred for...to have a very strong bite. listen firedrag a wolf cant outrun a greyhoud in a sprint, or pull more weight than a mastiff or american bulldog, why would he have a stronger bite than a dog that was specifically bred to have a powerful bite like the dogue de bordeux? a big pit also has a stronger bite. the problem is that none of you want to give in: firedrag and snoop wont ever agree on a pit having a stronger bite or being able to kill awolf and the pit people wont admit that a wolf can and will kill a pit some of the times. Modern dogs arent mutations punk state a source that sayd something like that! they have been specifically bred to accomplish certain tasks so they look different but they arent mutants !

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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What was CLEAR from the whipple case was that NO healthy adults have ever been killed by a pit. They are always elderly, sick, infirm, or very young children. Let's face it. A dog fight often lasts more than an hour....how hard can a pit bite if it can't kill an animal in an hour? The small Chihuahua illustrates a point. The actual jaw strength is not as great as many suppose. Your thought that the dog was playig is silly. The pit tasted blood, bit one woman severely (soft tissue damage) and tried to kill the little dog by "shaking" it. Grab and shake. Sound familiar? Haha! get over it dude. I have the actual stats and the sites. I cite my information. You don't cite because your information is bogus. No, the PIT BULL CANNOT crush the bones of his opponent. Their jaws do NOT have the strength. One way that Wildlife people verify wolf kill for compensation, a wolf will actually crush the bones and swallow them...you find bones in their scat. They can bite through the femur of a moose in five or six bites...a pit can bite on a cow bone for MONTHS without actually biting through the bone. Dogs are dogs. They do soft tissue damage, but RARELy deep structure damage as wolves do. MD's are aware of this. When training for trauma assistance, they learn that dogs only do soft tissue damage ... if you take the maulings and deaths, it's always soft tissue damage. Maybe they ripped the scalp off a child. A wolf would have crushed the skull and taken the brains out, like they do with moose. The woman attacked by the Presa Canario...a dog that easily beats pits and is used by police for this purpose...did not do bone damage. The bites were soft tissue and the woman in SF died (Whipple). The case brought out some facts, by the way. A pit bull has never killed a healthy adult. They looked at 300 cases since the early 60's.... "pitbullz rule" says, "Most pitbulls have fought against dogs much bigger then them and they have still won" YEA? Cite your sources, dude. I have posted where even pit bull fighters don't want dogs with big heads because their heads are heavy enough to make a difference in the fight. OUNCES matter. Besides. the pit didn't do too well against the small Japanese dog, the Chihuahua, or even the elderly person in the wheel chair!! Haha!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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The Spanish Mastiffs, although named mastiff, fill flock-guard positions. They share a similar history to all flock-guarding dogs from Spain and Portugal. Landing with the Phoenicians, they were part of the tradition of the Trashu-mante (flock migrations) in the southern routes of Spain. Those that spilled over into Portugal became the Estrela and the Rafeiro do Alentejo. Still found guarding cattle and sheep in the hills of Spain, this dog is a powerful, protective animal with infinite color variance. As is true of many large animals (and humans), he does not feel the need to show his obvious strength. He is alert, but calm and unruffled. The stock guardian sounds the alarm to the shepherd, then becomes quiet and attentive, not attacking. The breed is still natural in its behavior and instincts. Expectant dams find a secluded place to bear and raise their puppies. The Spanish Mastiff is gentle with other animals�even cats�and loving to his owners. He enjoys being with his family and doing a job for them. This dog is easily satisfied with minimal exercise and grooming. Owners that do not raise stock find them apt family guardians, search-and-rescue dogs or obedience workers. Currently, there are breeders in Switzerland and Germany, and the dogs are beginning to infiltrate the USA and other countries. They are seen occasionally at international dog shows. www.thebreedsofdogs.com Jackass!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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The dog we know as the Pyrenean Mastiff belongs to the breed of very big molosus dogs. These dogs were the guardians of the Aragonien sheep herds protecting them from predators such as the wolf and bear. The Mastiff from Navarra and Cataluna are included in the Pyrenean Mastiff of today. They were also used to protect houses, farms and castles. In their work of protecting the herd they were assisted by the shepherd dog today known as Gos d'Atura Catala. In order to protect themselves while working the Pyrenean Mastiff used to wear a special collar called a "carlanca" generally made of iron with sharp protruding spikes. The collar was an extraordinary help in case of an attack from wolves or bears.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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where is that proven? The dog we know as the Pyrenean Mastiff belongs to the breed of very big molosus dogs. These dogs were the guardians of the Aragonien sheep herds protecting them from predators such as the wolf and bear. The Mastiff from Navarra and Cataluna are included in the Pyrenean Mastiff of today. They were also used to protect houses, farms and castles. In their work of protecting the herd they were assisted by the shepherd dog today known as Gos d'Atura Catala. In order to protect themselves while working the Pyrenean Mastiff used to wear a special collar called a "carlanca" generally made of iron with sharp protruding spikes. The collar was an extraordinary help in case of an attack from wolves or bears.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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Wolf is the common name for, and the largest of the species that, with coyotes, jackals, foxes and domestic dogs, make up the genus, Canis. The wolf is a social animal and though most packs are made up of four to seven individuals, large packs may include as many as fifty wolves. Two leaders-the alpha male and female-keep the pack together and are the only members of the pack to mate. The adult male gray wolf, Canis Lupus,stands twenty-six to thirty-eight inches high at the shoulder, has ahead-and-body length of forty to fifty-eight inches. The average weight ofthe North American wolf is in the sixty to one hundred pound range, but mayweigh as much as 175 pounds. Females are fifteen to twenty percent smaller than the males. Wolves range from all shades of gray, tan and brown topure white or solid black. Possessing the third strongest jaws of all land mammals. www.wildlifewaystation.org

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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Wolf vs Hybrid vs Dog Physical Differences Wolves have narrower chests, proportionally larger feet and teeth, and longer legs than dogs. Their eyes are more almond-shaped than dogs', and the inside their ears are well furred and never flop. Wolves' tails, while they may be held down or up, never have a curl to them. Dogs usually have some curve to their tails. In contrast to dogs which breed twice a year and can produce pups at any time, wolves breed only once a season. Wolf pups are always born in the spring or early summer. It is important to remember that there are no physical features that conclusively separate a wolf from a hybrid from a dog. Training a wolf or Hybrid Wolves and hybrids are much more cat-like than dog-like in their response to training. While they're perfectly capable of learning commands, they cannot be counted on to obey them in frightening or dangerous situations or when they've decided they're bored with the game. These are the times, of course, when it is most important to be able to rely on obedience. This trait is attributable to fact that they are expressing "adult" canine behavior as opposed to the more "juvenile" canine behavior of dogs. From an evolutionary perspective it is very important for young wolves to obey older pack members. However, as they reach adulthood it is important for them to assert independence. Dangerous Behavior Wild Animals! A well-behaved wolf is not a well-behaved dog. The wolf behaviors discussed below have enabled wolves to survive as wild animals for millions of years. Unfortunately, these healthy, normal, natural drives are extremely difficult to deal with in captivity, and "proper" training doesn't eliminate them. While dogs often exhibit these behaviors to some degree, they've been greatly altered by generations of selective breeding. In wolves and hybrids, these wild characteristics are strongly expressed-it is unrealistic and inhumane for people to expect such animals to suppress them. Dominance As puppies, wolves and hybrids readily accept domination by their human owners. This makes sense because under natural circumstances a wolf pup's survival depends on its willingness to submit to elder pack members. However, by the end of their second year they have matured sexually; it is at this time that they often challenge their owners for the dominant role. In the wild, wolves have a strong incentive to become dominant because usually only the strongest female and male members of the pack-the alphas-breed. Subordinate pack members may attack a dominant wolf that displays signs of weakness. In interactions with its human "alpha," a captive wolf or hybrid may interpret clues as subtle as fatigue, frustration, or a twisted ankle as weakness and initiate a dominance battle that is potentially lethal. Dominance battles also occur between wolves, hybrids, and their canine companions, be they dogs, wolves or hybrids. In the wild a subordinate wolf may choose to leave, but obviously this avoidance behavior isn't an option within the confines of an enclosure. Therefore, it is not unusual for captive wolves and hybrids to seriously injure or kill pen mates. Additionally, the proper social manners of a wolf or hybrid can harm a child. When two wolves greet, they lick faces, bite muzzles, and straddle one another to communicate dominance. Such "greetings" from an animal that weighs 100 pounds or more can easily frighten and potentially endanger a child. Predatory behavior In North America there has never been a verified account of a healthy, wild wolf killing a human. Unfortunately, this is not the case with captive wolves and hybrids. A child running, screaming, stumbling or crying may trigger a predatory response (even in an animal that has always been "great with kids"), resulting in serious injury or death of the child. Once this predator-prey response has been stimulated, the animal may never again view children as anything but prey. Other animals also arouse wolves' and hybrids' predatory instincts. Cats, small dogs, chickens, sheep and other domesticated animals are not safe in the presence of a hybrid or captive wolf. While we all know many dogs who exhibit this behavior, it is to a lesser and much more controllable degree. Territoriality Wild wolf packs maintain territories and drive off or kill trespassing wolves. This behavior ensures that packs do not compete for prey within a territory. In captivity, mature wolves and hybrids display territorial behavior by being extremely aggressive with strange dogs. Any meeting is potentially lethal to the dog. Nuisance Behavior Scent Marking, "destructiveness", possessiveness, excessive shyness, pacing, digging, howling. Several other wolf characteristics, while not necessarily dangerous, constitute behaviors undesirable to humans. Scent marking (urination and defecation) may occur anywhere the wolf or hybrid wishes to establish territorial boundaries, which may include the living room sofa. Chewing behavior is another common complaint of hybrid owners, as jaws powerful enough to crush the femur bone of an adult bison quickly dissect any interesting object. An owner rapidly learns that once a wolf or hybrid has taken possession of a favorite shoe, no amount of discipline will help recover it, and an attempt may in fact lead to a serious bite. To a wolf, possession is 100% of the law; YOU DON'T TAKE THINGS AWAY FROM A WOLF OR HYBRID unless you're prepared for a fight. Additionally, wolves and hybrids are often quite suspicious and uncomfortable around objects they weren't exposed to as puppies (again, a powerful survival adaptation in the wild). Things that most dogs take in stride, such as umbrellas, people wearing backpacks, overhead ceiling fans, or who-knows-what can panic wolves and hybrids. Extremely shy animals may panic simply at the approach of a stranger. Frightened wolves and hybrids have been known to scale fences that had contained them adequately for years. Panic can cause destruction of property, injury to the animal or loss of control of the animal with resulting injury to someone else. Finally, wolves and hybrids are active and curious. If not given plenty of exercise and mental stimulation (several hours daily-especially during their most active times, dawn and dusk), they can be depended upon to continually pace, move prodigious quantities of earth and howl incessantly. Consequences Maturity Wolves and hybrids often don't begin to exhibit mature behavior until they are two or three years old. Therefore, problems associated with maturity such as aggressiveness, extreme shyness or predatory behavior are often not seen until the animal becomes an adult. If it's really a genetically high-percentage wolf hybrid, odds are its behavior will undergo a radical transformation. A preliminary study in Washington state revealed that the average age of privately owned hybrids was much lower than the average age of dogs; this indicates that people don't hold on to hybrids as long as they do dogs. The reason for this, based on anecdotal evidence, is that as hybrids mature, people find them increasingly difficult to handle. The end result is that they are euthanized or, in an act of extreme cowardice, turned loose. Killings While it is true that dogs can and do exhibit many wolf behaviors, in general their behavior is genetically altered so that they are much less likely to "follow through" with predatory, dominant and territorial behavior. While many dogs stalk and chase animals, including people, few of them follow through with an actual bite, especially in the case of humans. This is not the result of training; it's due to an inhibition that is genetically based. Because of this, it is difficult or impossible to train many dogs as guard animals (i.e. to actually bite and injure an intruder). The estimated 300,000 hybrids and captive wolves in the USA killed 10 people between 1986 and 1994 (about 1.25 deaths/year/300,000 hybrids) and injured many more. In contrast, the 50 million dogs in the USA killed an average of 20 people/year (about 0.11 deaths/year/300,000 dogs). Put another way, captive wolves and hybrids are 11 times more likely to fatally maul a human than a dog is. Additionally, bear in mind that many of those 300,000 hybrids actually have little, if any wolf in them. If the statistics were only for wolves and genetically high-percentage wolf hybrids, the rate of fatal attacks would be much higher. When wild wolves are blamed In some cases, hybrid owners may release their hybrid into the wild thinking they are doing the right thing. THAT IS THE WRONG THING TO DO! Hybrids released into the wild may cause trouble in nearby communities and wild wolves may take the blame. Also in rare instances if a wolf and hybrid would to breed, the resultant offspring may compromise the genetics of wild wolves.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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Mr. Grunt For some reason some of my posts are not posting. I am so glad you watched the show. However you are lying about the mastiff dog. There were only two wolves not a pack, one very old one who later died in his sleep and the other one was very young and almost still a pup. They knew if they attacked in daylight the dog would alert the shepherd who would then shoot them. Not to mention the alpha male of their pack had just kicked both their asses in one fight. He refused to let them eat. So they had to leave. Iberian wolves are also smaller than grey wolves. I don't think they could weigh more than about 60lbs. Wolves hunt in packs to save energy. Gray wolves have been seen taking down large prey alone. Watch the yellowstone video.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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Snoopy wrote: "However you are lying about the mastiff dog. There were only two wolves not a pack, one very old one who later died in his sleep and the other one was very young and almost still a pup." Dude, they had wolves coming from all directions eyeing the sheep from the woods.. that was more than just 2 man. And even if it wasn't a whole pack like they portrayed it to be.. it still doesn't count out what the narrator said. Btw, why would it matter anyhow? I thought it would only take 1 wolf to EASILY kill any domestic dog? As if 2 of them wouldn't be enough?! Is this what you're saying now? Snoopy wrote: "They knew if they attacked in daylight the dog would alert the shepherd who would then shoot them." This isn't what the narrator meant at all.. he meant that the Mastiff would kill or injure some or all of them. If he meant what you're saying then don't you think he would've said that and possibly elababorated on it? He said that they would stand ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE AGAINST THE MASTIFF DURING DAYLIGHT... not ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE AGAINST THE SHEPHERD WITH HIS GUN DURING DAYLIGHT. It wasn't implied nor was it stated in that manner. If he had meant it in that way he would've said it like that. Snoopy wrote: "Not to mention the alpha male of their pack had just kicked both their asses in one fight." LoL. I wouldn't even have called that a real "fight".. wolves are too wussy to go the distance, toe to toe, beyond simple dominance and territorial disputes. All that I saw the Alpha male do was grab the side of their faces then release a few times and play dominant with some weak little threat displays. All dogmen know that dogs (wild or domestic) relying on threat displays aren't fighters. Period. They'd rather try and prevent the fight from happening through scaring their opponent (punking them out) than actually just getting the fight on with. I'm sorry to say but these wolves wouldn't have a chance in hell against a Tosa or APBT one on one. Iberian or Gray it wouldn't matter. No matter how big and mean they are it just wouldn't.. the "fight" isn't in them. The Legend Of The Wolf didn't show any hard biters at all.. as I was saying I didn't see anything impressive or out of the ordinary at all with these wolves when they were consuming their prey and "fighting" with one another (or trying to for that matter). I've seen domestic dogs bite much harder than them. My 76lb. APBT (which I've posted 5 puppy pictures of) could bite much harder than each and every one of them. They were NOT impressive whatsoever. I'll be renting the videos.. don't worry. This time around though, promise me that these things will actually bite hard and won't yelp and run away from the incoming tide's sea water. That's pretty embarrassing.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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Other Person> Very good point. So I've noticed this too.. where he tells myself and others to "cite your sources" when infact I do every time and so do many others such as yourself. I've got links under quotes that prove my points.. hence "citing sources". I don't think he knows what that means yet. As for the recent talk about National Geographic.. NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC happens to be the source.. from the Legend Of The Wolf show. The only sources that these two always talk about are YellowStone videos, National Geographic shows, and natureswolves.com material. I haven't seen any YellowStone stuff so I can't comment on that.. but National Geographic with their show "Legend Of The Wolf" made their claims seem only laughable. It's not really their fault either it's just the truth. Hype can only go so far. Natureswolves.com is seriously a sorry site. If I was in the wolve's corner I wouldn't even bother citing it as a source. All I've seen is damage from a whole pack of wolves to other weak animals. This doesn't count as the criteria that we are looking for. Just a couple pictures with solid proof that only 1 wolf made all that damage with only 1 bite would be more than acceptable. I might even say "Yeah guys, you're right, that IS a lot of damage". I won't be saying this though as it's a collaboration of a whole wolf pack to kill these animals. I could go out and scour google for wild dog packs or even domestic inner-city dog packs that have done more damage than this and label it as "cite-worthy" like these 2 are doing. With as many wolves participating in those kills with that many bites.. the damage SHOULD be that severe.. if not MUCH worse than that from what these guys are claiming. This is why I don't even bother looking at that stuff anymore. It's all a tag-team effort.. none of it is independently done by a single wolf with just a bite or two. Don't expect a single wolf to be able to break or even fracture bones with just one bite or cause "hamburger effect" with just 1 bite. This is where their claims have totally been shot down.. as we all know a single wolf with 1 bite won't be doing any of this. Maybe a single bite to a rabbit could cause some hamburger effect but I wouldn't count on it. These animals are said to have good jaw strength but are not known solely for it like Pitbulls are known for. I guess I've been expecting too much out of them.. wolves can only do so much.. even when they're together.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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Snoopy> There was no shepherd with a gun.. all I saw was the Spanish Mastiff and a couple of Wolves.. though I thought there was more but I guess I'm wrong on that. It was still more than 1 though. "You know, my cockerspaniel fought with a pit bull twice and he's still alive. He out ran the pit in the end but wait, pit bulls are fast and agile. How is it that my little cocker was faster than the pit bull? He tried to bite max in the throat but max was agile and quick. The pit only got him by the ear. Then his lose owner made him let go. My little cocker, faster than a pit bull." A Cocker Spaniel out running a Pitbull? The dog apparently wasn't an APBT then unless it only had 3 legs or was half dead when it arrived. "He tried to bite max in the throat but max was agile and quick." 98% of them don't TRY to BITE the throat... they'll GRAB and SHAKE the throat so violently that it'll make almost anyone sick watching it. Bring your Cocker around any of my 2 APBT's.. I can guarantee you that it wouldn't be able to out run either of them much less live after the encounter. American Cocker Spaniel vs. American Pitbull Terrier. An All-American bout. Hey, did I tell you about how my friend had a Wolf Hybrid that was supposedly 9x% Wolf and how my male Pit (puppy at the time) grabbed him by the neck and crippled him after it took 6 men 20 minutes to beat him off? Yeah, freak accident.. we had to turn the radio on really loud just to drown out the Wolf's screaming so we wouldn't get the cops called on us for "animal cruelty". I thought Wolves were supposed to be fast and agile enough to avoid being locked onto and shaken? Guess not. This Wolf, Lobo Jr., is a quadriplegic for life now. We had to duct tape him to a skateboard so he can get around and have to feed him liquified meat through a straw now. Tough luck for him. He was a good pup when he could lick his nuts and sh!t all on his own. So much for being independent anymore. Fortunately for my buddy he's still alive.. he just can't leap in 16ft. bounds anymore or play "Alpha" with the neighborhood Beagle. Shakes tears off

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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Of 19 dog carcasses we examined, 14 were partially or fully eaten.... While preying on dogs, wolves displayed a lack of fear of humans and buildings that is otherwise unknown except when they are diseased, disabled, or preying on deer. In several incidents investigated, wolves evidently focused their attention on dogs so intently that they were almost oblivious to buildings and humans. Most wolf attacks on dogs, including the fatal ones, occurred in the property owner's yard and, with only 2 exceptions, within 100 m. of the owner's house. In 1 case, a wolf attacked a dog near the doorstep and would not retreat until beaten with a shovel. This incident occurred after the owner had recently lost another dog, and neighbors had allegedly lost 2 dogs. Four fatal interactions involved dogs chained to a residence or a doghouse. In those instances, the dog's collar was broken and the dog was carried away. In 1 case the doghouse was dragged into the adjacent woods with the dog carcass. www.wolfology.com

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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Dead Dogs and politics in the DuNoir- A wolf has killed three dogs on a ranch in the DuNoir Valley, about 25 miles southeast of Yellowstone. Two of the dogs were found dead about a quarter mile from the ranch -- the Diamond G. The third is missing and presumed dead. The dogs were found dead on April 21. Although this is the range of the Washakie Pack, examination of the dead dogs indicates a single wolf killed the dogs. Ed Bangs, head of the Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery was quoted in an Associated Press article that the small number of bites indicated just one wolf. He said that when several wolves are involved the dogs will have more bites. "The question is, 'Can one wolf kill two dogs?"' Bangs said. "The answer is they can if they are fighting." www.forwolves.org Eat that!

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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No mr. grunt- That dog was a pure bred pit bull. He out ran two pit bulls in reality. They were drug dealers dogs. One of the dogs was used for fighting sometimes(from what I heard not really sure though) The other was just a pet. One was black with a white star on its chest and the other was brown or brindle I should say. They were too bulky to out run Maximus. He dusted them. I have many witnesses. Maximus thinks he can take a pit bull because they are not much bigger than him. He weighs over 35lbs last time we went to the vet and he is not fat at all. For you last post. Wolf pups are not ready for serious fighting yet. I have been around pit puppies and had no problem getting them to let go of things. Wolves also mature at a later age than dogs. And they mature better than a dog, per more hormones and more aggresion. Dogs never fully mature like a wolf. Dogs are forever wolf pups. They don't even compare.

Answer by snoopy
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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A pathological liar believes in the lies, at least at the time that she or he is talking. Their stories tend to be very dramatic. They often portray the person as being smarter, braver, more attractive, or more interesting than she or he really is. Sometimes people begin to catch onto pathological liars because of obvious flaws in the stories. A fairly young man will describe his heroics in the Vietnam war. A homely woman will talk about all the men who fell instantly in love with her. Sometimes the flaws may be more subtle and it may take a knowledgeable person to find them. Often it happens that a pathological liar will be caught out at a party by someone who really was a pilot, really lived in Africa, or really was a fashion model. Suspect a pathological liar if: the stories seem too dramatic or unrealistic the lies seem to serve no purpose except to impress people or the lies can easily be shown up Sometimes pathological lying appears to be related to physical causes, such as problems in the brain. Other times they appear to be related to low self-esteem. In any case, good diagnosis and treatment is needed. Contact your healthcare provider for assistance and referrals if needed. See, it's not your fault. You just need help. I truly feel sorry for you guys. I wish you the best in this aspect.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/22/2004
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"Can a single pit bull kill a bison?" Of course. Single Pitbulls have killed huge animals by latching onto their noses and suffocating them. It's not unheard of. These dogs can stay on a nose attached for 30 minutes or even longer while they're being shaken and beaten into nearby objects. A local Mormon from a church just down the road, Church of Latter Day Saints to be exact, has a dad with a huge horse ranch. To make a long story short a Pitbull grabbed his horse "Indy" by the nose and refused to let go one night. Indy, the horse, suffocated within just a couple minutes and died on the spot. This was also written about in our local newspaper. If they can kill a full grown healthy horse via that method than any animal with a protruding nose that isn't smart enough to know how to breathe out of it's mouth can and will die. So yes, a Bison could be killed by a Pitbull. This is common sense and anyone with a working brain knows this is possible.. just not probable unless you're specifically setting the animal up for this by baiting them. Note: The animal is in such excruciating pain having to support a heavy Pitbull on just it's nose that it is having to breathe a lot harder than normal, obviously, and since it's path is cut off, and the energy it's expending to get the dog off is requiring much more oxygen than usual.. well, you do the math on that one.

Answer by Mr. Grunt
Submitted on 7/22/2004
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Snoopy> Find me a source to a Bulldog fatality at the hand of a a single WOLF.. not WOLVES. I want to read about a WOLF killing a Bulldog single-handedly on his own. By Bulldog I mean an American Bulldog, Pitbull, Alapaha Blueblood Bulldog, Olde Bulldogge whatever. No English Bulldogs though.. those aren't really even a true working breed anymore. Find something like that.. and it might actually mean something to everyone here. A good Bulldog would destroy any Wolf in a one on one fight. This is why you probably won't ever find anything like that. And if by chance you do.. then there was more than 1 wolf helping or the Bulldog was really old, sickly, or really young. As far as I'm concerned no single wolf has ever killed a Bulldog.. more specifically a Pitbull. I doubt even a whole pack has. You know one has never killed a Tosa because there's only an estimated 500 Tosa-Ken here in all of North America! And even their numbers in their native land are quite small. Most Japanese have only heard about them and have never seen a single one! These dogs you hear about that were killed by WOLVES aren't worthy fighting dogs. They're not well-seasoned "game dogs" in top notch shape nor are they of such a tough ferocious breed as a Pitbull or Tosa. Bragging about WOLVES offing labs, poodles, and sheepdogs is pointless.. those breeds aren't anything to reckon with in any kind of head on confrontation. I want to see sources of BULL BREEDS being killed by a single wolf not worthless dog breeds that could be killed too easily.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 7/22/2004
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Haha! Grunt you saw how that pit bull shook the Chihuahua!! haha! GRUNT, a breeder doesn't say you give a spike collor to a dog that has won a wolf fight, idiot liar! Cite your sources! Pit bull attacks woman, small dog - Owner ordered to remove dog from county 2004-06-10 by Wendy Giroux Mercer Island Reporter An elderly woman and her small dog were attacked by a pit bull while walking in the area of East Mercer Way and S.E. 35th Place last week. A witness who was riding his bike west on the bike path shortly before 5 p.m. June 1 told officers that he had just passed the woman, and thought that the dachshund/chihuahua mix and the pit bull were both with her. But when he heard a yelp, he turned around and saw the pit bull attacking the woman and her dog, according to a police report. ........the pit bull, which ran away. A person driving past stopped to pick up the woman and her 10-year-old dog, ``Amber,'' to take them to the hospital." Council approves pit bull restrictions June 24, 2004 "The council voted 7-4 to approve the measure just four hours after a pit bull running loose in South Boston mauled a small dog, gripping the 22-pound Shiba Inu in its jaws " "A pitbull lunged at him, sinking its teeth into Rocky's neck and swinging him around like a rag doll until a neighbor clubbed the pit bull with a bat." � Copyright 2004 Globe Newspaper Company. http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/06/24/council_approves_pit_bull_restrictions/ YEA, THE pit bull GRABS AND SHAKES AND SHAKES...BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE THE POWER. SO, EVEN WITH A DOG THE SIZE OF A KITTY CAT, THE PIT BULL JUST SHAKES AND SHAKES AND THE LITTLE DOG IS FINE !!! HA-HA!! Loser!!! Get on with your wretched life!!!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 8/14/2004
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Firelier remember when you said "Popsicle" the police K9 that people mag did an article on and you said "he doesnt exist a pit couldn't be that smart". Your main source of information "TELEVISION" and your favorite source on tv now known as the "Science Channel" did an hour show on The now well known "Popsicle". The dog (Pitbull) is now employed with his original handler with the US Border Patrol. His first year there he has broken all the records for drugs and taking full grown men down. ALL THINGS YOU SAID A PIT COULD NEVER DO "TO SMALL" YOU SAID. HEY YOUR MISSING POLAR BEAR SEASON IN RUSSIA. FUNNY HOW YOU DO SO MUCH BUT FOR THE LAST 5 MONTHS YOU HAVEN'T LEFT THIS SITE DEFENDING YOUR LIES. ANYWAY GLAD TO SEE YOU AND PROVE YOU WRONG AGAIN. I LOVE CATCHING YOU IN YOUR LIES. HAHAHAHA RETARD # 1 I CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR STILL HERE OWE BY THE WAY YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERS MY QUESTIONS ABOUT "HOW IS IT THAT A WOLF CAN BITE STRAIGHT THROUGH THE FEMUR OF A FULL GROWN MOOSE AT AN AVERAGE WIDTH OF 48 INCHS. WHEN A WOLF CAN'T EVEN OPEN HIS MOUTH A QUARTER OF THAT WIDTH? DID I TELL YOU ABOUT THE "" FROM THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL ABOUT WOLVES HUNTING MOOSE. OWE WELL ACCORDING TO THAT "ALL HOLY" SOURCE OF YOURS, THEY SAY THAT "A FULL GROWN MOOSE HAS NOTHING TO FEAR FROM A PACK OF WOLVES ONE WELL PLACED KICK WILL END THAT WOLVES LIFE. HOWEVER THEY WILL WAIT FOR A CALF OR A OLD MOOSE TO DIE AND THEN EAT IT". THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE WHAT YOU SAID THEY SAID. HMMMM FIRELIER, I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Answer by Jessica Ball
Submitted on 10/29/2004
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the pitbull is stronger then the wolf because the real measurment of the pitbull jaw strangth is 2,000 pounds plus once that pitbull bites it does not let go until it or its victum is dead the first thing the pit goes for its the throat! you can't even get it off with a 2x4 a pitbull will fight an enemy to the death it is a fight dog! wolves have been killed by pitbulls before a pitbull is not afraid to take on anything including bears! the only way to get a pitbull off is to kill it! you can't even pry its mouth open with too hands! i pitbull is even stronger then a rottweiler! pitbulls have strong jaws then any other dog in the dog kingdom! and a pitbull will lock its jaws when its fight with an enemy and no one will be able to get it off unless you shot it! you wanna know how i know because i have owned pitbulls before! we all know the pitbull will win against a wolf!

Answer by Dlight
Submitted on 10/31/2004
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Hallo you dogmen, I just found this website and I have to say, the dicussion is quiet interesting. I live in Europe and a couple of years ago I worked as a hunting-guide in Russia. I escorted rich people who thought they are nature-people and wanted to hunt on deer and bears...I'm sure you know the types. Anyway, one day we were five days deep in the woods when my two dogs (two Amstaffs, brothers, four years old )picked up something. I thought we were on the track of a bear, so we moved on but after a few hours I found traces of wolves. Eventually, by the evening, we met a couple of male-wolves and the dogs went after them...we couldn't keep up with them (certainly because that fat German-client of mine had the physique of a couch)but I wasn't to worried about my dogs...I thought the wolves were done for. But eventually I arrived at the scene where the dogs fought the wolves...one wolve heavily wounded, two dead dogs and another wolve ready to defend his companion...said enough. And I know that all you PitBull-adepts will claim that an Amstaff isn't a PitBull, fightingwise...that might be so but remember one thing: every pitbull is still a DOG of 60 pounds orso...don't compare that to a 120pound male-wolve with fangs like daggers and the physical abilities to hunt down big prey for days and days... I've seen two wolves killing a big moose...it took them days to hunt it down to the valley and another four full hours to actually kill it...I don't see pitbulls doing that guys, no way. And talking about another dog. In Italy I saw a 200 pound Naeopolitan Mastiff (a real one, not the hippo's you breed in the States) fighting a pitbull...not a pit fight, the dogs just encountered accidentally. After ten minutes they managed to separate the dogs, the Mastiff was tired out but the pitbull was ready for a bullet, the dog was heavily wounded and bleeding like hell. Once again, factors like size and weight DO MATTER, certainly if the fight is not too long. Greets.

Answer by owner of AMStaff
Submitted on 11/16/2004
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Okay ONE. who cares who would beat who in a fight. TWO, Pit,s CAN and DO faint side to side. THREE, pits do NOT usually shake and tear side to side, no need, thats why the tremendous bite. (I have watched on a few occasions mine just grab and hold, not only other dogs but cats too.) FOUR 1,600 PSI is right and this HAS been documented. Watch extreme animals series on Animal Planet. Extreme Bites was a feature. FIVE, Pits have the second most powerful bite in the Canine species, second only to a Hyena, NOT a WOLF. Five, how in the hell do you figure that a Pit would loose advantage on a "taller" dog when the size was specific for that reason? I.E. Bull Baiting, not to mention dog fighting. Really people the question was, What psi does a pit have compared to a wolf. It wasn't who's' the meanest on the block. Stay on track.

Answer by hamboner17
Submitted on 11/26/2004
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I HAVE FIGHT BETWEEN FIGHTING PITBULL AND FULL BLOOD MALE TIMBERWOLF ON VIDEO. U WON'T BELIEVE WHO WINS. i have had all sorts of dogs. i have breed 3 different champions blood lines of akc registered dogs. i have had champions poodles, the american pitbull, and scotish terriors. i have also had the pleasure of owning pure blood wolves. I have also had 2 fighting pitbulls that i swore no dog could touch. so when i saw what had happened, i was really amazed. my big nasty male fighting pit bull unfortunately got out back in with my male timberwolf. my male pit weighing almost 100 pounds and my full blood timberwolf weighing a little over 130. my security cameras recored the fight. so if anyone wants proof, email me at hamboner17@yahoo.com and i'llsend video. this might help settle the questions with the pitbull and the wolf. my pit quickly went for my wolf's throat. to my suprise, my wolf slapped the pit with his paw across his face. as the pit got right back up and tried to get ahold of my wolf's throat, my wolf just seemed to fast and when my wolf big my pit across the back, he broke his back instantly and my pit later died at the vet. I LATER FOUND OUT THAT MY STRONGEST PIT HAD ABOUT 400 LBS PSI OF BITING POWER; I THEN LEARNED THAT MY TIMBERWOLF HAS ALMOST 1600 PSI IN A FULL BITE. I ALWAYS THOUGHT I WOULD HAVE THE TOUGHTEST DOGS AROUND. LOOKS LIKE I DID UNTIL IT TANGLED WITH MY WOLF. AND THE FIGHT BETWEEN THE 2 LAST ABOUT 10 SECONDS

Answer by Wanderer
Submitted on 11/29/2004
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All that I know is that I saw a small pack of some very large wolves and I wouldn't want to mess with even one of them. They were wandering across the highway in north Texas. I am not scared of pitbulls, they don't look like they could take me out in one bite. Heck I could probably let one get a hold of my hand and still come away with it. It is not the psi that counts it is how many SHARP teeth it has, and how big of a chunk it can take out of you. I could beat the hell out of a 50 Lb dog, that wolf is a different story. Nobody will tell me a pit bull or any other 50 Lb dog stands half a chance against a wolf. That would be like putting me at 220Lbs against a tiger it has a 10 to 1 weight advantage, I am going to loose. It is even odds against a wolf, if I get a baseball bat(caveman style). and I beat the hell out of a pitbull which is what a wolf does.Point and Point.

Answer by dogmd
Submitted on 12/5/2004
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I'm a vet and I came across this line of communication. It is funny and appealing because you must understand that it is not about the bite. Some dogs are pack dogs like wolves and german shepards. Generally highly intellegent and lightning fast in their attacks. The Shepard is a long decendent of the wolf and that is why it is generally the police dog. When trained to kill the dog is virtually unstoppable but this goes with most dogs. Its training! Domestic dog are generally no match for a trained killer. Like a wolf or a German Shepard. But take these dogs out of the training and they can be vulerable to anything. The bite psi is only one factor in the equation. Just like humans a stronger human does not equate to the victor. The highly trained one will generally dominate. Remember smarts, speed, and instinct will take you much further.

Answer by Lauri
Submitted on 12/9/2004
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ok kids, I'm going to end this one now. The domestic dog has been bred to fit the desires of humans. The design of a pit bull's skull and jaw allow it to lock its jaw when biting, thus origionally allowing the dog to tightly grip a bull, even if it is being flung around. Furthermore, the structure of a pit's head allows it to exert a biting force of about 2,000 lbs psi. Compare this to the average wolf, at around 1,500 lbs psi, and it is obvious who has the stronger bite. As to the question of who would win in a fight? It would most certianly be the pit bull. Consider the fact that pits are bred and trained for fighting. When they were origionally bred, they were trained to NEVER give up on the bull. This trait still persists when the pit is seeking its quarry. The wolf on the other hand knows when it is beaten, and lets it's opponent know, in wolf-speak. This means that the wolf procedes to lay on the ground and expose its belly to the opponent, thereby surrendering. If a pit were trained not to stop, and a wolf surrendered, the wolf would be killed quickly, because domestic dogs dont usually obey the rules of the wolf fight.

Answer by wolf paws
Submitted on 1/3/2005
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First off I am an animal specialist and want to say that Dobermen Pinschers were never intended and would not do well for pit fighting. They are meant to over power and over run men. They were bred by a German tax collector for PROTECTION, something pits were not intended for though people think so. Also, the width of an animals jaws determines the ammount of preasure it can produce, that's a fact. Of course the dog has to be in good health, and there certainly are many breeds who's jaws are wider than the pits. Wolves are larger and so their jaws may measure close. However the doggish, wolfish type that would easily beet them all would be a hyena. They fight instantly after being born and have jaws that are most powerful. They are more closely related to a mongoose than a wolf though. Female hyenas are dominant and better fighters. My experiences have proven that female dogs are far more aggressive and powerful than males, whether you want to believe or not, also wolves. I hate when people don't know what they are talking about.

Answer by pitsanddobes
Submitted on 3/4/2005
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I read over a bunch of these posts about pits dobes and wolves. Gotta point out a few things. first as for the PSI on a pits bits it has been measured at about 750lbs second while it is possible that dogs evolved from wolves it is simply a theory. There is no scientific data that concludes without a doubt that dogs came from wolves. Third. Pits were not created to fight. They were actually designed as bait and catch dogs. Originally aggressive behavior towards other dogs was NOT something they were predisposed to. Any breed will have some that are born that are dog aggressive. The pits that were born with this characteristic were bred to others with the same to promote this quality. It amazes me that so many people can compare the domestic dog to that of the Wild wolf. Those that do obviously never raised a wolf cub. Only then can you truly know the differences between the two. Finally the pit does in fact have the strongest jaw of all the canines and for the record they do not have locking jaws. Their jaws do not in any way lock they simply have extremely strong jaws.

Answer by kathy
Submitted on 4/11/2005
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a wolf can take a pit, the wolf is the original dog, the pit is domesticated by the wolf and every time a dog is domesticated by a wolf it gets weaker. the wolf is ten times smarter than the pit. the wolf is so much bigger then the pit (it isn't even funny).the wolfs paw would be the size of the pits hip that big. if a pit and a wolf were to meat outside the pit would have no chance the (wolf is the strongest dog in the world a Alaskan husky is (so suck on that)OK and john a wolf has a lot stronger jaws then a pit bull dose. so you people can think all you wont but in life the pit would have no chance in living. my bit has a pit bull and there not much to look at (no). and all dogs bite there jaws on Arther dogs necks win the fight not only pit bulls. i was at a party the neighbors had a pit bull the pit came out and the person that lived in the house that the party was at has an wolf mixed with a husky, the pit bull got out and came over to the party and do you wont to know what the wolf husky did put its jaws right in the pit stomach the pit was dead in less then 3 seconds and if you think I'm lying well theirs no way i can prove it, but I'm not.(jest so ya know). the pit docent have to hunt for food every day dose it (no). so there for the pit bull is breakfast, lunch and dinner so ya know what beat that because i jest made a point.

Answer by Abishai
Submitted on 6/25/2005
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First of all,, there has been NO test providing an acurate answer. I have raised both wolves<<rescued} and APBTs (jocko/redboy/anderson bloodline). THEY actually have alot of traits in common.. GO FIGURE..lol.. Anyway.. it has been estimated that a wolf has at least 1500lbs of pressure in a "SNAP" bcuz they break legs and necks of animals as large as MOOSE... NOW the "pit"bull has muscle massed in other jaw areas to make them a "HOLD" dog.. which we all know.. I would say that it is my experience in "predator control" with my APBTs.. that it really is about EQUAL>> one SNAPS HARD>. the OTHER HOLDS HARD>.. but they both can CRUSH the same bones.. and the same pack dogs, wolfdogs, and coyotes.. like its nothing.. WOLVES are hunters.. Pits are fighters.. THEY BOTH HAVE SKILLS to survive.. they both have 1500lbs of pressure in a bite.. THEY JUST BITE DIFFERENT>>> thats experience...

Answer by Tony
Submitted on 6/28/2005
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To FireDragon, Snoopy, and Neal, You're talking about animals--usually prey--which have been killed in the wild and later discovered by humans. That makes what you're saying about them breaking bones is true, but of little relevance; most of the bone-breaking and limb-severing occurs during feeding, after the victim is dead or helpless. If you look at the mortality reports for Yellowstone Park, the wolves killed by one another are generally described only as suffering soft tissue damage. Also, the dogs in question are only those which commonly go feral in the American wilderness (in other words, not pitbulls, Tosas, Anatolian herding dogs, etc.). Speed: http://www.greyhound-data.com/stadi...land=au&st=1024 greyhounds are faster than wolves. Note dozens of instances where greyhounds run several hundred meters at an average speed of 39-40 mph. (Thus their top speed must be higher; anecdotally it's placed at 45 mph, but I haven't seen a quantitative measurement. ) I'd like to compare to wolves, but I haven't seen any actual measurements of their top speed in sustained running--just estimates between 35 and 45 mph. The hard data for greyhounds is certainly more promising. Sight: http://www.eyevet.info/coile1.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...6&dopt=Abstract To summarize, retinal ganglion cell density maxima and visual streak intensity under staining (which are physiological indicators of visual acuity) tend to be greater in wolves than in domestic dogs; however, the upper extreme in dogs (which is represented by greyhounds, as well as apparently some German Shepherds) surpasses that of wolves. "Of the carnivores so far investigated, the cheetah and the Greyhound have been reported to have the most highly developed streaks, with less developed streaks in the dingo, fox, and other breeds of dog." "Additionally, among domesticated dogs, 2 different types of visual streaks have been found and both forms can occur within the same breed. Some dogs, and apparently all wolves, have a pronounced visual streak with a dense central area and extensions far into the temporal and nasal portions of the retina.19 Alternatively, some dogs have a smaller, less densely packed, moderately pronounced visual streak .19, 21 Wolves also generally have a greater maximum density of ganglion cells (12,000-14,000/mm2) than do most dogs (6,400-14,400/mm2).19, 21 These features imply that the visual acuity of wolves may be better than that of dogs, and that the consistent appearance of the visual streak in wolves may be a result of environmental pressures in their natural state." (I went and tracked down the actual study for reference (21) above, and the max density champions there were apparently German Shepherds. Greyhounds weren't examined in that study.)

Answer by logic isn't always the best awnser
Submitted on 7/21/2005
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I'm not positive on the exact PSI of either animal but I have worked with various dog breeders and even pure wolves owned by a man named win selle. he is licensed to study these animals. he recieves different wolves from all over when captured for becoming a threat or nusence to society... Anyways to all comments yes pits are well known fighters but any real dog breader can tell you the reason for breeding these dogs with power is because a wolf would be far to dangerous as a pet. yes it can be done, but thats why you need a liscense for such an animal. the pits stronger in porportion but the wolf's size outways that fact. Iv'eseen wolves fight and Iv'eseen pits fight(IN PERSON). Pits often hesitate while leveling close to the ground access the situation. Wolves are unrenting, bigger, have thicker fur, longer teeth, more agile, and are stronger that pits in bite and body due to size. yes wolfs hunt in packs and yes they peel flesh from there victims but it does not mean that a wolf cant indeed even snap a deers neck let alone an elks leg. Pits also snap when they attack its not a very coordinated bite. A wolf will thrust its head forward latch down and keep repositoning its bite deeper in a saw like motion 7out of 10 times killing or immobalizing its prey. This ia often done by the alpha male or whenever these animals hunt alone. they hunt strategicly when in packs because in packs they go after big game and risk becoming injured if they go straight for the kill so they dive in randomley peeling flesh untill they weaken the animal or untill the alpha male gets a good grip.

Answer by Utopia
Submitted on 8/16/2005
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Well as much as I dislike Pitbulls I have to agree a large american pit would munch a wolf like crunch & munch. Disagree if you would but face the facts. 1. Pitbull is much much more poweful 2. Pitbull is bread for 100's of years to fight and kill. 3. Pitbulls do this ALONE, unlike the wolf. 4. Pitbull is one of only 2 dogs in world with locking jaws 5. Pitbull wont retreat like the wolf would 6. Wolf is slender and not designed by nature to hunt/fight solo 7. Wolf simply cant keep hold of the pit. 8. Wolf would rather run then fight unlike the pit. 9. Wolf is lankier/thinner making it much easier to grab hold of. 10. Wolf is PACK HUNTER, not solo Result: While WOLVES are menacing in packs. a WOLF would not kill a pitbull. Sorry

Answer by Kyler71
Submitted on 8/22/2005
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I have read all the above replies to wolf vs pitt bull. All I can say is very little of what I read was based on a factual information. It sounded like a bunch of guess work. If I was to guess I would say the pitt would win. But the truth is that I don't know who would win. To get that answer you would need to have a fight. There would need to be rules. such as both dogs must be perfectly healthy, and the pitt should be as close in weight as possible to the wolf. The wolf would have to be captured from the wild and not be domesticated in anyway. I also believe a pitt that is a seasoned fighter should be used because the wolf most likely will have much experience just from its life in the wild. Assuming all this is possible. It would require whom ever is involved to break multiple laws unless done outside the US. Getting a wolf from Russia would be possible as well as flying the prize fighting pitt over there. Holding the fight in Russia would be much easier legally than attempting this in America. For those that wrote on PSI, I think they are putting too much on the factor of strength alone. The dogs ability to kill and it tenacity are more critical. To kill one only requires enough strength to collapse a wind pipe which my guess is that a human can bite hard enough to do that. The bottom line here is that until several fights occur and results published there is no definitive data. It is all guess work. But my vote is for the genetically engineered killing machine know as the American Pitt Bull terrier. I have read articles of these dogs being pitted against African lions, Bulls, Bears and each other. They are awesome at what they were designed to do. Their pain tolerance is unbelievable. I have seen wolfs yelping in pain when fighting with other wolfs and cowering down to the Alfa male. They are pack hunters not lone killers, Pitts are bred for destruction. And if I were watching and actual fight I would bet all my money on the pitt.

Answer by Markdvdman
Submitted on 9/14/2005
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I am amazed by some of the nonsense on here!!! For this who answer in CAPS do not IT IS SHOUTING!!! I am Welsh, and have a 56lb pitbull. He is NOT trained for fighting! No Rottweiler in the world will kill him - he goes insane when he sees large rottweilers, he frightens them off! To say an old woman can fight him off is insane - you have not got a clue! He is a pet and a magnificent guard dog. Every human being that knocks our door is scared of him - no need he is just brash. You are deluded if a poodle could kill my dog - I have seen him turn and he has killed a staff while he was on the lead AFTER the staff attacked him - he threw him like a rag doll. nothing to be proud of. Plus he is superb around my bros 2 year old baby so you Fire thicko have not one iota of an idea as to what a pitbull is or CAN do. My dog is naturally bonkers - not trained - he HATES other dogs period - and I would put serious money on him beating a TOSA any day of the week. You just do understand anything. Read up on all the crap you like - I can tell you now for CERTAIN - if a burglar broke into our house and nobody was there they would be dead - no doubt whatsoever. He knows what to do - by pure instinct. You can have my address and take him on - I dare you - talking rubbish is your domain. Denounce a pitbull with no facts. As for beating a wolf - it is debateable. a pitbull is a natural fighter, a wolf is not but it depends on when and where - a very STUPID argument and to talk about dog-fighting is a disgrace - i am ashamed my pit has killed two dogs - nothing to be proud of but he was attacked each time by dogs off the lead and he was on the lead every time. You try stopping him in that case. Grow up and stop being so deluded saying mastiffs will kill a pitbull. Ok - the size issue - what about Bruce Lee then? would you have liked to fight him then? I guess not - it is all about the job at heart - a big man does not always beat a small guy - just as a Ferrari will not always beat a Caterham over a small route. Idiotic and brainless - Jesus christ get a life and do a bit of research without closing ranks!

Answer by ross
Submitted on 9/23/2005
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The following artical is as close as I could find on pitbull psi, it states that there is no way of acurately measuring and no recorded measurements. "Pitbulls" have a locking jaw - can scissor their teeth back and forth and have a bite of over 1500 P.S.I.etc. NO! Who conducted the "canine Olympics " with dogs that obey "Bite hard..1,2,3. now!' commands? Ask for the research, as it does NOT exist. No dog has an extra locking device. You don't need scientific proof about the locking jaw nonsense. It's obvious and logical. How would they eat if their jaws kept locking? If it's a voluntary lock (keeping the mouth closed with muscles) it's not a lock. We all have this kind of locking jaw. Dr Brisbin (Georgia University - USA) and other canine anatomists have compared skulls weight for weight in breeds, with examinations of dog jaws and all are the same construction. Dr. Brisbin states: "The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier." In regard to claims of massive 1200 P.S.I., 1500 P.S.I., 1800 P.S.I. jaw strength (Depending on who is telling the story) he says: "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparision to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data." Another "fact" is that the pit bull does not lock its jaw as do other dogs (although this is a frequent claim against it) but it's lower jaw scissors back and forth to "rend flesh from the bone". According to Dr. Brisbin: "This is anatomically impossible! Humans can move their mandibles forward to a degree because of an essentially flat dental plane. Dogs have greatly projecting and interlocking canine teeth and projecting cheek teeth that prevent movement forwards and backwards. I have a dog skull on my desk as I write and this type of movement can not be made. "

Answer by RB
Submitted on 10/25/2005
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Maybe you would all like to know that when a pit bull, or any dog for that matter, is used in a pit for bull baiting or bear baiting, the bull or bear is tied and multiple dogs are used (the dogs are not tied down). 1 dog vs. a bull or bear is no contest, the dog loses EVERY!!!EVERY!!!EVERY!!! time. And no, a pitbull doesn't suffocate a bull by clamping down on it's nose! That is merely one point of attack while the other dogs are attacking the bear or bull from other angles. A male african lion couldn't bring down a full grown healthy bull or bear (MAYBE, if he got very lucky!). I grew up in Africa and lived there for 19 years before moving to the US of A. On a lion hunting trip (they are banned but these days the lion is simply caught and released) I saw a whole pride of around 10-12 fully grown female lions struggling to bring down a healthy adult bull. The whole struggle took over 2 days. The lionesses were able to take turns resting while the others kept hammering away on the bull. At over 2 days of constant hammering by the lionesses the bull finally went down. Don't think a pitbull was bred to take down a bull or bear. They were merely developed as an improvement from other dogs. Bears have no natural enemies(except man), they are an apex predator(black bears can have competition from wolves, cougars, etc. though). A bear's paw would crush any dog. I have a friend who tried to trap a bear cub once. He set a trap in a strong wooden shed built of 4x4's. He did end up trapping a bear cub but the mother just smashed through the shed like it wasn't even there to rescue the cub. A bear's claws can be as long as person's hand. A bear has teeth on top of that but in confrontations bears use their paws more. My friend also encountered a bear one time while hiking in the wilderness. Though he is a pretty seasoned outdoorsman (who knows enough to make alot of noise so as not to surprise a bear and to alert them so they head elsewhere) he accidentally surprised one on a hike. He tried to scare it away but it wouldn't scare. At last resort he had to shoot it with his rifle (you have to shoot between the eyes to hit the brain, shoot anywhere else and you just end up getting the bear even angrier. Don't tell me a pitbull can bring down a bear when several rifle shots to the body won't do it.

Answer by Oggsmash
Submitted on 1/9/2006
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The answer is Very relative to the breed of wolf. Some of the European an American wolves are close to 200 pounds. Discovery channel and its spin offs have things like this come up all the time. I have seen an episode with the theoretical match up of a Cougar vs Wolf and the Wolves extrapolated bite strength was 550 ft-lbs (NOTICE NOT PSI, but useful to scale with in this discussion). On another show specifically about bite pressure in the animal world 3 domestic dogs were tested along with the other animals. The dogs were biting a bite sleeve on a dog trainer and they came in Rottweiler, Pit Bull and German shepard from 1st to last. The Pits was around 250ish ft-lbs. Less than half of a wolf's. The thing to keep in mind this was a 60ish lb pit, so pound per pound he was aquitting himself well, but NO WHERE near the ridiculous claims some of the people on these threads make. The pit bull is/was used as a fighting dog NOT because of bite power/pressure but for its stamina, fighting spirit and tenacity.

Answer by WhoDat
Submitted on 1/17/2006
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Generally, bite force is exacted by means of the adductor muscles, which are the muscles that attach at the top of the skull along the sagittal crest (the bump on top of the skull) and act to close the jaw. Pit bulls and other bull-type breeds of dog were selectively bred to have a skull that is more of a box-shape than that of shepherds or wolves. the reason for this is that the shortness of the skull from front to back increases the mechanical advantage of the dog's bite. If you have questions about why this is, then check out a physics book. As has been said before, bite force in difficult to measure in psi given the number of variables involved; however, one can conclude that a pit bull, by way of its skull configuration alone, may have a "stronger" bite. I couldn't care less which is the more "wild" animal. It doesn't matter. This isnt' a question of heritage; it's a question of jaw mechanics. Let us not forget to mention that the gold medal in land mammal bite force belongs to none other than the HYENA! Look at a hyena's skull shape.. is it elongated or shortened and boxy like a pit bull?? You be the judge, but if your conclusion matches mine, you'd find the hyena is not unlike a pit bull in skull shape, with perhaps a more exaggerated sagittal crest.

Answer by Rich1980
Submitted on 3/3/2006
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Dr. Brady Barr of national geographic recently had a show (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, discovery channel first airing on 8/18/2005)which measured the bite force of various animals. The measurements were in lbs not psi...the problem with measuring in psi is that the sharpness of the tooth is what generates most of the force..not the actual crushing strength of the jaw muscles (A hypodermic needle generates more PSI than an anvil falling on you, because all of the force is focused into one tiny point). The measurements on the show were taken in the same fashion as a standard bathroom scale reads your weight when you stand on it; the scales were simply bite size. The measurements of domestic dogs were taken using a computerized bite sleeve. Of domestic dogs, a GSD,APBT, and Rott were tested. 320 lbs of pressure was recorded. The Pitt bull measured the least of the three. The Pitt bull was also the smallest dog of the three. Wild dogs were tested as well using a baited bite bar, and the highest reading was 310 lbs. Interestingly, a mature hyena bit with a force of 1000 lbs (the fact that it is primarily a scavenger means that it has to be able to eat material which other animals leave behind ,i.e. bones, sinew, etc). The hyena is not a canine species, however, and therefore not applicable to the present argument. It is my opinion that a wolf can generate more PSI than a domestic dog because of sharper canines...but the larger domestic dogs have more developed masseter muscles leading to more crushing power.

Answer by namelessnumberheadman
Submitted on 4/6/2006
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i've met alot of pits and they scare the crap out of me. i'm from montana where they breed and raise pure bred wild wolves and keep them as pets. now they don't make for good pets but i grew up around them since i was 11 or so .. i can't offer an argument ..all i can offer is what i've seen. i've seen an alpha male crack a louisville slugger in half in one bite just gnawing on it. and i've seen that same alpha male kill two ex- K-9 german shepards by snapping their necks as quick as you can say 1-2-3..alot of people have wild dogs out in montana ..and alot of people let them roam free on their land ...when so when two of them cross sometimes it ends badly ..and as a result thats why this specific wolf had to be put down .. there was no calling the shepards back ..they ran barreling out there hoping to down the enemy ..because of their training to protect ..and there was no stopping the wolf from crushing their spinal chords in one bite each leaving them limp because the wolf does'nt toy with any enemy...it simply can't.. it sucked to watch ...but i'll tell you what ...i'll always be more scared of the wolf ...because the wolf does'nt know the definition of "playing" ..it has no ambition to tug or rip when fighting another dog..it just simply kills the quickest way. and by the way ...they're alot bigger than they look on tv.

Answer by Stupid ass white b*tches
Submitted on 4/13/2006
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non of of you stupid people have been or even witnessed professional dog fighting. I was locked up because I was caught watching a pro fight. I have seen a pitbull named the jackel littraly tear another "dog, coyote, mountain lion, even a pure bread wolf from Russia," instants and whole body to shreds in less than five minutes. And all the animals it has destroyed have out weighed him and where at least three time his size so unless you have seen or witnessed this actions shut the fck up and stop reading your stopped books you assholes. If you want to see what one pitbull could do to another animal rent Off The Chain. Remember wolves hunt in packs. Pitbulls are also used for hunting and can break bones much easier than a wolf and are also much faster and have more grip to the ground than a wolf. They also have a longer pain thrash hold then a wolf. A wolf hunts in PACKS FOR IT WONT RECEIVE INJURIES. Once the pit has a hold of the wolves Hung leg it will shake, break, and tear the leg of almost instantly. Why do you think they are trying to get rid of the pitbull terrier. In my city a lady was attacked by a pitbull and it broke her arm and her leg with his tremendous strength you wanna be know it all as*oles

Answer by Klondike
Submitted on 4/15/2006
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Theres a lot of retards in here. Pitbulls are stupid. I kill at least 10 pits a week with my trusty louisville slugger. The bread is the most ignorant bread on earth. I'desay i have put over 1000 out of there misery without a scratch to my self. as for a killer dog id'esay they suck. I hit one in the snout with a hatchet once and it ran yelping like a poodle. my neighbor had 2 and they got loose and into my back yard with my 80/20 wolf hybrid and there were 2 dead pits before i could shoot them. The 1st one a 95lb male was bitten in the top of the head and killed instant the second tried to run and got bit in the spine behind the skull and died shaking in a cunvulsion. Who ever says a pit can kill a wolf is a retard and probably likes smelling the gas his pit puts out. Personally I thing pits are more like fighting chickens than killer dogs.

Answer by joe momma
Submitted on 4/15/2006
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Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, 8pm est 8/18/2005) � Dr. Barr measured bite forces of many different creatures. Domestic dogs were included in the test. Here are the results of all of the animals tested: Humans: 120 pounds of bite pressure Domestic dogs: 320 LBS of pressure on avg. A German Shepard, American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) and Rottweiler were tested using a bite sleeve equipped with a specialized computer instrument. The APBT(American Pit Bull Terrier ) had the least amount of pressure of the 3 dogs tested. Wild dogs: 310 lbs Lions: 600 lbs White sharks: 600 lbs Hyenas: 1000 lbs Snapping turtles: 1000 lbs Grey Wolf: 1500 lbs Crocodiles: 2500 lbs

Answer by Vet Med
Submitted on 4/21/2006
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Wow, there are so many many fallacies here that I don't even know where to begin... The original question of a wolf bite vs "pit bull" bite is ridiculous. As some stated, a wolf is a wild animal and kills to survive on a daily basis - therefore will kill to survive if a dog, ANY breed of dog, threatened it, and it would be just a normal day for the wolf. An American Pit Bull Terrier is a pet, it was NEVER originally bred for fighting and didn't get the "fighting" name until around the 70's as someone mentioned prior. As a Veterinarian and an owner of 2 female American Pit Bull Terriers (one is 60 lbs and the other is very small at 35 lbs) and a border collie, I can tell you that there is no possible way to test "ppsi" on any animal unless of course if you'd like to throw your arm in for testing - more power to ya! Moreover, there is NO BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE OF A "PIT BULL" HAVING A "STRONGER" JAW OR BITE THAN ANY OTHER BREED. All dogs are the same and a bite from a pit bull is no different than a bite from a golden retriever! Once again, if you'd like to test this, by all means, toss in your arm! In addition to that, I've been bitten by many different breeds of dogs in my years treating animals, and never, not even come close to being bitten by an American Pit Bull Terrier. In the Temperament test that rates all breeds of dogs (can't think of the national agency that performs these at the moment...), the American Pit Bull Terrier tested out as a more even temperament than a golden retriever and was suited to families. Half of the "Pit bull attacks" that are read in the papers or seen on TV, were not even in fact "pit bulls". Or rather, they were, but most people aren't aware that the term "pit bull" does not necessarily mean the American Pit Bull Terrier, and that it does in fact include 24 different breeds that are classified and generalized as "pit bulls". I'll get off my soap box for a second here... Since the main question here was muffled out by the fighting question, I will tell you another thing. I'm from the ND/MN area and wolves are constantly killing dogs, livestock, etc. We also hunt them to keep the population down and have the government shooting them from helicopters as well, because of the damage/$$ loss that they inflict on pets and livestock. A wolf is an animal that is full trained by nature and survival of the fittest to kill. Someone else mentioned here how large wolves are - this is true. They're huge. Even a trained "pit" wouldn't last very long against a wild wolf. Now if there were a pack of dogs, (when I say pack, I mean more than 6), that would be another story. And on the pit-fighting subject, you pro-pit-fighters could do well to remember that technology is amazing and someone could easily track your IP address, find your location, and have enough evidence just from your posts to get a warrant. (there's my degree in Criminal Justice poking through) If you yourself are fighting "pit bulls", just know, it's against the law for a reason. Not just because it's inhumane, but because of everything going on in the sidelines (drugs, guns, etc). Honestly, the only people who care about the pit bulls in these fights are the American Pit Bull Terrier lovers like myself and ASPCAs or like organizations. The government only cares about the sideline activities. I'm proud of my wonderful, friendly, trustworthy, loving American Pit Bull Terriers and to have someone compare them to a wild animal like a wolf is plain ridiculous, not to mention worrisome that some believe "pit bulls" to be superdogs. They're not. They're just dogs. I'm an athletic woman and I also believe I could fight off a dog, ANY dog, if I had to. A wolf on the other hand....not so sure - they also hunt in PACKS. And just remember when you hear a headline of a "pit bull attack", remember it was probably not an American Pit Bull Terrier that did the deed. And that lady that was killed by those two "pit bulls" in CO or CA??? - well, she was ACTUALLY KILLED BY PRESA CANARIOS, NOT AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIERS. Let's remember, that presa canarios weigh around 150lbs as opposed to a 50-90lb American Pit Bull Terrier. And anyone who says they have a 150 lb "purebred pit bull" are either lying or they're doggie needs to go on a diet! If your healthy, in-shape "pit bull" weighs 150 lbs, it's not an American pit bull terrier....it's crossed with another breed to get the bigger size. Chew on that (pun intended)

Answer by KCTocho
Submitted on 4/22/2006
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So far after reading most of everyones posts, I've came to the conclusion the majority of the time an American Pit Bull Terrier would survive the immediate fight with a wolf. Undoubtedly a pit bull could easily receive some mortal wounds from a wolf, but on the other hand a wolf is not a solitary hunter, it hunts in packs. A pit bull is a fighter, perhaps capable of being one of the most tenacious animals on earth. One thing people have forgotten on here, is the strength of a pit bull pound for pound packs more muscle on its small stocky frame than any other dog, giving it the lowest center of gravity. A wolf could never subdue a pit bull into a position it couldn't get its self out of, a pit bull is a compact ball of muscle. A wolf is built for long distance running, a pit bull is built for endurance fighting. Another thing is the argument for the will of survival, you could argue a wolfs will to survive could be greater than that of an APBT, since wolves are wild, but a well loved pit bull has a lot more to lose than a wolf, it has a warm home, always available food, water, toys, and plenty of affection. In conclusion I have great respect for the wolf, and apbt, but I have more respect for the pit Bull for one reason, this breed has had to put up with as much crap from people in its short life as a breed, than the wolf has for the thousands of years that its been here. There are 2 types of pit bull enemies, the people that fight them, and the people that fear them.

Answer by thank you
Submitted on 5/4/2006
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don't ssh people because now you are making the noise. But I could not resist I can not help to be emotional First of all pit vs wolf I assume that pit could wipe the floore with the boxer for example. Ever since I came to sights like this all I have been hearing is pit bull this and Tosa that. I never had a pit and would like to have one but in a fight where anything can happen well anything can happen but under most circumstances if I had nothing to lose or gain I would give edge to the wolf especially if the pit wasn't trained. I have seen clips of wolf of average size take on a boar. Boars are 200+kilos which is over 400lbs Wolf which means 1 wolf was victories over that 1 boar. I have read a story of a man being so proud because his bulldog helped him to capture a hog (and in the process bulldog almost got killed by the way). If I caught a boar I would be proud to yet wolfs take that kind of gamble every day. Tosa versus Crocodile that is of course a joke. Same as pit bull against a komodo dragon Hyena can sometimes drive lion away from the kill but it usualy prefers to fight more than one on one. If there is a dispute over food between hyena and cheetah cheetah usually back away even if there is two of them.

Answer by Orion Pax
Submitted on 6/17/2006
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FireDragons... Like others have said. A single wolf never attacks any animal that could fight back. 99% of the time they fight in packs. Wolves grow up learning to fight in a pack. A team effort. They learn to fight in a team. They very seldom fight solo. They only do that when a elder wolf tries to overcome the alpha male when it has become too old to run the pack. Once an alpha male reaches a certain age, basically the next in line will challenge him for the position. The alpha male sometimes loses depending on his age. When he does lose it usually dies. If not (rare case) it leaves the pack to fend for itself, and usually dies not long after that because it cant get enough food (solo fighting here...remember) Pit Bulls, and I mean any of the terrier/bull dog breeds that were bred for dog fighting/bull baiting were trained and BRED for 1 on 1. They can fight solo. They were bred for it. It is noted that Pits are the strongest dogs on earth. They were bred for that. A pit will bite down and will not let go. They shake back and forth to hurt the other dog and once the other dog is on the ground its over. They will push down and bite harder onto the other dog. That LITTLE dog only won because some one beat the crap out of it with a club. DUH! Have you ever heard of a single wolf killing a Pit Bull?

Answer by Pack Animal
Submitted on 7/25/2006
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First of all, a wolf and a PB are both pack animals. A single Pit bull usually doesn't do any harm unless its a mean, not properly raised, or raised to fight to the death. Just like a single wolf usually can't do much harm to an animal twice its size. Although a moose or cow does not have vicious fangs to penetrate skin, a wolf or PB can take down one of these animals, but usually its 2 or more doing so. As for the Wolf vs PB, I would lay my money on the PB every time for these reasons- I have personally had a PB latch down on a rope and let me swing it around in the air until I get dizzy and fall over, a PB is much stronger, and breed to fight in most cases. Even a stay at home PB would be able to fight off a single Wolf. If you have ever seen a Wolf they are very skinny, you can see their ribs usually and they have thick fur, as for a PB they are very strong and feel no pain. The strongest reason a PB would kill a wolf if thrown into a Pit and fought to the death is b/c the PB stands lower to the ground, the wolf has much longer legs, in a dog fight the shorter dog almost ALWAYS wins the fight. The Wolf would be biting the top of the PB while the PB would go straight for the throat, once they have the wolf by the throat, they would shake their head with great force ripping the wolf apart. The Wolf won't fight an animal that can fight back, they go for easy kills, as for the pit it will fight anything, in NC people use PB to go on wild Boar hunts, a wolf wouldn't dare go near a wild boar b/c the boar would rip the wolf apart, although maybe a pack of wolves would attack the boar, but not without the boar doing great damage to the wolves before going down. The boar usually hurts the PB'sbadly also, but this is just an example of how the PB can and will use their WILD instinct. Finally, a PB vs Wolf fight would be like Ken Shamrock vs a 65 year old man. No contest the PB wins.

Answer by Randi1987
Submitted on 7/31/2006
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Studies have shown that when a wolf is in a fight for dominance, it avoids actual biting as much as possible and simply tries to suppress the other wolf by sheer weight, knocking it around with it's front legs, much like a bear. However, in a fight to kill, the wolf tries to avoid body contact, knowing instinctively that the other animal will be trying to grab it's throat. A bit bull however has been bred to kill, always trying to go straight for the throat in a fight. Its teeth are blunt and its jaws are designed to grab and hang on, while a wolf's are equipped with teeth to rip and stab and tear. It's hard to say who would win in a fight between a wolf and a pit. In a fight to the death, a wolf will be whirling away to protect it's throat, and slashing at the pit with it's teeth while the pit will be following the wolf trying to latch onto any body part it can. Should the pit get hold of the wolf's throat, there's pretty much no hope for the wolf. More than likely, though, the wolf would win, because as much as people like to think so, American Pit Bull Terriers are not immortal. No dog, whatever the breed, can withstand multiple lacerations and extreme loss of blood. Eventually the dog would become weak, and the wolf would go in for the kill.

Answer by kk pit lover
Submitted on 8/16/2006
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I would like to know out of all of these people that feel such an urge to put in their two cents about pits how many have actually ever owned or been around one for an extended period of time? And No your neighbors "vicious" pit doesn't count. you put any dog in their domain of course they are gonna protect it.I for one have had pits all my life and I absolutely adore them as animals, and I have had other breads of dogs as well and to be honest my uncles blue heeler was meaner than any pit I or any of my friends have ever owned. So before you criticize you should look at the next poodle or Doberman that walks by you, because in my mind those two breeds are far meaner than any pit Ive ever come in contact with.

Answer by Pagemaker
Submitted on 8/19/2006
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The only thing that would prevent a Great Pyrenees from killing a wolf would be that he couldn't catch him. A wolf would run if it were to come against a Great Pyr One-On-One. True, wolves (meaning more than one) are capable of killing a Great Pyr, but no single wolf could kill a true full grown "working" Great Pyrenees. As for the Pitbull thing, they are not to be trusted. I believe that a wolf would also run from the pitbull. However, dogs should never be matched unevenly, if you are testing courage and fighting ability they should be matched at equal weights. I know of one pitbull that was almost killed by a Great Pyrenees but the fight was stopped. The owner failed to realize that his pitbull could not best a dog that was almost twice his weight. Before you insecure pitbull owners start yapping about how a pitbull could defeat a Bull, remember this, the Bull did not bite back, he would gore, kick, stomp, and try to get away. The bulldog did not defeat the bull, to secure a victory, his objective was to get the bulls nose to touch the ground (and stay alive while doing so)

Answer by that dude
Submitted on 10/4/2006
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Do the human-bred traits of man's fighting dogs, manipulated over thousands of generations, offset the fighting instincts and survival skills lost by domestication? This is the question debated in this forum, and I'm sorry to dissapoint anyone but there is no way of knowing the answer. The wolf towers over the pit in overall strength, size, and stamina, and both animals' bites are strong enough to hold and kill. The wolf's home turf is his wild territory and the pit's is any ring. So how has man created a better fighter canine than the wolf? I think the answer is mental not physical. Through generations of training, neglect, abuse, and manipulation, the pit bull now has the ultimate heart of a fighter that is fearless, ferocious, and unbreakable. This confident will to never quit, if trained for fighting, is enough to overshadow the inborn fighting ability and of a wild wolf, the greater physical specimen of the two. If a pack of champion fighting pitbulls were released into the wild, I believe they would naturally become the ultimate canine after a few generations in the wild. I know my words might be confusing or contradictory, and I could go on for hours, but maybe this will help you to make a decision for yourself as to who is the supreme canine.

Answer by i think id might no
Submitted on 11/11/2006
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well yeah sure the woolfs wild and the pitt bull is bred for fighting. that doesnt mean anything. the wolf pack would beat the pitt bull even to pitbulls depending on the pack size i suppose and a 1-on-1fight may end evenly the pits smaller and might miss the throat and get the chest and natrually the wolf is stronger so the pit wouldnt drag it down so the wolf could strike at it from the top and kill it and ALSO PITTBULLS JAWS DONT LOCK AFTER THE BITE THAT IS A MISS PROVEN FACT AND ALL DOGS NOT JUST PITT CAN LOCK THEIR JAWS WAT HAPPENS IS THE CANT RELAX THEIR JAWS SO THEY PRACTILLAY GET NUMB AROUND THE ANIMAL ITS FIGHTING (I THINK THATS ALL RIGHT LOOK IT UP) but then on the pitts side the pitt could run up and get the throat and if the wolf tryed to get the pitt off it wold bite and scrath cuazing it to roll over and then pitt could release and give a death blow . 1. who cares about wat your pitt did oh well the doesnt mean a wolf coulndt beat it 2.wat about rottwielrs 3. ive seen a wolf take out a pittbull with out a scrath 4.my rott procted me from a spotted hyena and killed wat he did waz bite its head then shook and then the hyena grabbed his leg but before he snapped it my rott rolled over threw it up and ripped its trhoat to ribbons

Answer by She Wolf
Submitted on 12/6/2006
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I found this site on accident. What a thing to argue about, lol. We have wolves in our family (wolves are family members not pets, you don�t own them), I have had my entire life and I am 42. I also have a friend that owns and raises the pit. Although, I agree that they are a formidable animal for what they are bread and raised for, but they are by no means a wolf. My friend who raises pit admits to this. There have been studies on the psi pressure of different animals, and if people would take the time to research before they ran their mouths they would find this information. Unfortunately my Tundra/Gray Wolf, & Timber Wolf and I where given first hand experience of this match up. We moved into a new house and for the first three months I practically had to sleep on my back deck with a gun to keep the crack head crooks from trying to rob us blind and break into everything. This was because after they jumped the fence and discovered I had Wolves that they tried to take a 2X4 to, they came back one night a group of 5 with 2 pits. They proceeded to break in my back gate and release their 2 pits on my female Tundra Wolf who had the run of the yard. This was at about 1 AM, by the time I got dressed and out the door with my 357 in tow. My Male Gray Wolf had cleared his 8 foot kennel killed one of the pits, and had the other down by the throat half dead. These stupid ass kids had the pit by the back legs trying to pull him away from my male and out the gate. As I got out to the situation one of them pulled a knife and was going to cut my wolf, I told him to back off, or I would shoot his dog on the spot and then him next. I talked to Apache them reached in and grabbed a hold of him, and pulled him away. I don�t know if the seconded dog survived or not, I made them take both there dogs and leave. I told them if I ever caught them back there I wouldn�t pull him off, and would shoot anything that moved that wasn�t him. I haven�t had trouble since.

Answer by Sangimino
Submitted on 12/21/2006
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this is hilarious... you all claim to know so much about fighting and animals.. when you mention nothing about diet, training, supplements, nothing. A wolf bred for fighting, will rip apart a household pitbull. A pitbull bred for fighting, will rip apart a wolf. If both are bred for fighting, the better animal would win. I'mnot even going to go into my experience with animal contest, but I will say that out of what I've seen, Fighting dogs are much similiar to human fighters. Each having their own style of fighting. I've seen a pureblood Akita take out a 3 seed american bulldog/red nose in less than a minute. But, back onto subject, Most pitbulls do the same thing. They go for the legs, latch on, and move their way up to the throat. This is highly effective on more slender dogs. However, On dogs with more mass, via Akita, or larger breeds, it doesn't work so well. The other dog will latch onto the pits throat as soon as he makes contact with their legs, and by the time the pit moves it's way up to the Akita/big dog's mane, it's fading away. Wolves on the other hand, go straight for the throat, and deal with much less than that. They're faster than any other dog in the ring, smarter than any other dog in the ring, and have a lot more instinct behind them. If a pit does get ahold of the wolves legs, the pit might take it. But to share some first hand knowledge. I had a 98% High-bred gray wolf. His lesser half was Malamute. He won six circuits in a row, no, I am not going to name names, but she did her fair share of pits out of the ring, and yes, she did fall to a pit. In the end of all of it, it's the more experienced, better trained dog who wins. Breed really doesn't matter. Pitts are just favored for their small body's and big heads. It's all offense no defense.

Answer by iHATEpeopleWHOfightDOGS
Submitted on 12/30/2006
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hahaha looking at a lot of posts here i just laugh at a lot of people who seem t think their precious pit bulls have that thing called lock jaw. LOL @ you. there is no such thing as lock jaw, not in dogs anyway, its just a myth. there is no different mechanism to the pit bulls jaw that makes it lock. i dont know much about dogs but i know that much. also i know that a wolf would kill a pit bull straight out, no contest. the wolf would attempt to flee, instinctively, but if forced to fight the pit bull would have no chance. pit bull - DOMESTICATED family pet, probably plays with toys with the kids daily wolf - WILD/UNDOMESTICATED, highly trained at hunting, highly trained at killing, has grown up killing from infancy, does this daily even though wolves are pack animals, singled out they are still smarter, stronger and tougher than any family pet pit bull, or any dog for that matter. there is a reason why wolves are not pets and pit bulls are

Answer by Elmer
Submitted on 2/11/2007
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There are still plenty of wolves and pitbulls upon which we can conduct some scientific experiments. To satisfy your curiosity I am going to run the test and and put the evidence on YouTube. So far I've sunk almost 75,000 dollars of my own money on the project, but am short 38,000 dollars needed to acquire some Central Asian wolves. If everyone reading this thread would kindly send me 150 dollars, we'll get to the moment of truth a little quicker. Send cash in an envelope to the following address: Elmer Jessimer PO Box 31557 Trenton, California P.S. For all of you who invested in my other project (the digital reconstruction of the accidentally erased Bruce Lee/Muhammed Ali bout) I have good news: 96 percent of the film has been successfully restored. All that's now missing is the dramatic ending. Pizar Silicon, the company that is converting the decomposing film into I/O's went bankrupt. The administrator has agreed to continue the work if we can keep paying the tech'ssalary. So help us out by adding an additional 15 dollars to first envelope.

Answer by Clattz`
Submitted on 2/16/2007
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Ive done university studies on a wide variety of canines and i can tell you for studying many tests by professionals that a wolves jaws are much more powerful then they look exerting up to 1500 PSI, comparable sized dogs are as follows: pitbull terrier 360 PSI, rotweiler 340psi, german shepherd 290 psi. and whoever said wolves wernt bred to attack or w/e better get there studies right wolves wernt bred at all there pure wild! there has been recorded sightings of wolf clashes with domestic rotweilers and the wolf ended up killing the rottie in about 25 seconds so dont think a pitbull would stand much more of a chance, oh and despite popular belief pitbulls do not have locking jaws there is no such thing in any dog species they just have the strongest jaw of all domestic dogs.

Answer by Jo
Submitted on 3/25/2007
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Answer:Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, 8pm est 8/18/2005) � Dr. Barr measured bite forces of many different creatures. Domestic dogs were included in the test. Here are the results of all of the animals tested: Humans: 120 pounds of bite pressure Domestic dogs: 320 LBS of pressure on avg. A German Shepard, American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) and Rottweiler were tested using a bite sleeve equipped with a specialized computer instrument. The APBT had the least amount of pressure of the 3 dogs tested. Wild dogs: 310 lbs Lions: 600 lbs White sharks: 600 lbs Hyenas: 1000 lbs Snapping turtles: 1000 lbs Crocodiles: 2500 lbs

Answer by pbst@rtd.com
Submitted on 5/2/2007
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Back to the original topic....what needs to be considered are the circumstances of the fight. I'm going to assume that it is a grey wolf vs. an APBT. While I don't condone this, APBT fights are common are over the country and I have witnessed many. Pitting a APBT vet against a wild grey wolf would prove to be a hell of a battle. Both animals would have experience in fighting and killing other canines, and both have different methods. A canis lupus (grey wolf) is taller and longer than a pit, and also has longer canid teeth for ripping and tearing. Most grey wolfs don't reach 175 lbs., the average is more like 140 lbs. An ABPT is smaller, more stocky, and more tenacious than any canid, wild or domesticated. They can reach weights of 110 lbs. It kills by puncturing the juggular or by suffocation from tightening its jaws over an opponents throat. The fact that APBTs were bred for fighting says something, regardless of what kind of canine its pitted against. I've personally seen an unusually large APBT (possibly 100 lbs.) kill a rottweiler by strangulation. A veteran pit bull vs. a wild grey wolf would be a toss up. It really depends on the temperament of both animals. I believe both dogs would be mortally wounded in the end

Answer by red
Submitted on 5/29/2007
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Humm interesting discussion that wont get us nowere. I am not about to enter it though. Am just leaving here my experience. I owned 2 dogs, samoyed was their breed, though i would never get my dogs in to any fight,my male samoyed would get in to fights with all sort of animals (this usually hapens when he runs off) and i can tell you, you wont catch a runing samoyed... Well what i want to tell you is, that once he jumped the wall of my backyard (the damm wall is twice my sise standing up) and killed my neighbors rotweiller, Am not saying samoyeds are a better dog than any other in what fight is concerned!!! damm that episode was very sad. am just saying that once a small samoyed killed a wealthy rotweiller on a open fight that neither me or my neighbor wore able to stop.

Answer by CanisLupusArctocs
Submitted on 6/16/2007
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Wolves have OVER 1500 psi a bite. They take care in just how much pressure they put into a bite because if prey is struggling with that kind of bite, it would easily break their teeth, jaw, and quite simply, injure them greatly. Pitbulls, or any dog for that matter, hardly reaches over 800 psi. A pitbull may be able to lock and load, in a manner of speaking, being able to lock their jaws and put full force into a bite, but they do NOT have larger psi numbers. It how both breeds of Canis fight. A wolf bites several times, with a large number of psi. Pitbulls attack once, with little psi. They seem to depend more on their teeth and neck muscles with their jaw strength, seeing as they tear flesh, and shake their heads back and forth. Hands down, the wolf wins psi numbers, and ability to kill. I've studied wolves for years, and I've been around them. They really are sweeties, but they are large and wild animals. Don't underestimate the force behind nature, and overestimate the force behind man-made. No wolf will fight for you, or against you. They have brains, and they know their odds against an opponent. In a fight, it would be 50% chance all around. The kill rate for both animals is about the same, despite their differences in psi and tendencies in attack. A wolf would be up front, ready to defend and fight. They would not kill unless they had to. A pitbull would try to attack once, and make it be over from there. I rarely see a pitbull that tries to attack several times once they've locked their jaws around something. It's just like pairing a Professional BodyBuilder with a gun expert. They can both kill, but in different ways, and each time they fight, it might end differently.

Answer by Nonyo
Submitted on 6/22/2007
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apparently the majority of the people on here, commenting must be drooling on their computers while their mother plays with their sack. How could you compare a pitbull and a wolf? I love dogs, all dogs.... but a wolf would destroy it. There is PROOF, that a wolf is at the TOP of the food chain in every area of the world. Polar BEARS<<, P O L A R B E A R S steer clear of them, tigers in India steer clear of them are their numbers are reducing because of wolves, you hear stories of mountain lions/cougars of yellow stone being killed by both lone wolves and pack wolves alike, bears being killed by them, wolverines, etc. etc... Wolves are widely recognized as THEE best hunter, whether in a group or solo out of any other animal on this planet besides mankind with a weapon or tool. What does that tell you? A wolf has amongst the strongest jaws of all animals.... 1500 pounds of pressure per inch, while a dog has a few hundred, lions & tigers have up to 500, great white sharks 550, etc... so to think they could rip any of your house pets in half, shows that you must be making out with your sister after watching reruns of the deliverance. In general, no animal is and if you notice how bad lions and tigers have trouble with killing buffalo, well watch wolves kill a full grown buffalo. The pack will round them up, and usually ONE SINGLE WOLF (usually the alpha male or female), will run up and jump under it's neck and rip it's throat out. Then they all eat. A polar bear, again a P O L A R B E A R steers clear of arctic wolves for a reason... wolves usually won't sit there fighting for food unless they are starving to death. Even with a small and weak animal like a wolverine, sometimes theyll kill the wolverine, but usually they'll leave them alone because wolves do not care about conflict, they care about survival. If they are forced into a corner for their lives.... they will kill anything in it's path. They have the intelligence to analyze (being monkeys, wolves, and dolphins, followed by elephants are PROVEN to be the smartest animals after humans) and size up an animal, almost always going for the throat and getting behind or under a mane to get at the throat where necessary. You can tell as people post stories and links of their favorite dogs, how they live in their little geek fantasy world and are probably playing online poker, drinking a beer and awaiting the next Harry Potter movie. Face the facts................. wolves for the win without a doubt. Look into the depopulation of mountain lions in the yellowstone because of wolves and the depopulation of tigers in India because of India's wolves. Read all the stories of grizzly (G R I Z Z L Y) bear carcusses and the tons of wolverine carcusses found in North America. Have you seen the video of the wolf protecting her pups against a G R I Z Z L Y bear that was fullgrown? ONE WOLF, O N E (1) WOLF.... how it tore the grizzly bears throat out after the bear stood up and went to swipe, the wolf lunged back then forward right onto the throat.... and that was it, the bear was done for and did nothing but fall to the ground and never get up. Rethink your answers next time or at least do some professional research.

Answer by Nonyo
Submitted on 6/22/2007
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And whoever thinks animal face off is a good source of anything, just lookat how they predicted the walrus to kill the polar bear, yet the russians filmed a REAL (NOT ANIMATED LIKE ANIMAL FACE OFF - besides the hippo vs nile croc episode), but a real documentary of the polar bear completely destroying the 4,000 lb walrus. It's fur was all red from the blood. It should still be on youtube if you look for it. Go read about yellow stone park, ANIMATED CARTOONS of animals fighting.... read what the wolf population has done to the cougar / mountain lion population. About how they caught on VIDEO a lone wolf who was starving killing an adult male mountain lion over food. Animal face-off is just entertainment, the only real fight they ever showed that was not animated, was a hippo vs a croc.

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Question by Christian
Submitted on 9/15/2003
Related FAQ: rec.pets.dogs: American Pit Bull Terriers Breed-FAQ, Part 2/3
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what has more psi a wolf or pit bull?

Answer by ben
Submitted on 11/11/2003
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there isn't really an accurate way to measure a dog bites psi. but if i had to guess i'desay the pit

Answer by burb83
Submitted on 11/11/2003
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A wolf's bite packs a punch of 1500 pounds of pressure per square inch which is meant to snap an antelope or elk leg in half. A domestic dog even an American Pit Bull terrier can't even measure up to half of that at about 250 pounds of pressure per square inch. A Macaw (parrot) has a bite of 350 pounds of pressure per square inch which can break a broomstick in half.

Answer by demecleze
Submitted on 12/17/2003
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There are no studies for such things. But Irish wolfhounds kill wolves by themselves very easily. You can somewhat tell bite strength by feeling the back of the skull when your dog is chewing a bone. My pit has a fair amount of muscle, my friends shepard has fairly little and my airedale has just as much as the pit. But the pit has major skull thickness and especially size, making its head hard to move when its clamped down and makes the dog hard to knockout. I guess good for bull baiting?

Answer by moondog
Submitted on 2/6/2004
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my rotweiller mix destroys any pet toy kong ball- xlarge-tennis ball etc..my pit will play for days with these things untill danzig, my rot gets ahold of them,you figure it out..

Answer by Nathan_ProfPitBreeder
Submitted on 2/17/2004
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The APBT is the strongest dog in the world per its size, domestic or wild. It also holds the record on bite and lock-jaw also in wieghted sleigh pulling. A wolf is generic name of a lupus breed. 'Wolfs' work as a unit to kill prey, if singled out they are weak and vunerable. And for people who don't know anything about dogs here is a simple way to determine jaw strength... look at the width proportion to its over all size. i.e. Pit Bull- Stout and wide for its smaller body & Wolf- long and slender for it medium agile body.

Answer by dell
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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i have been studying pitbulls all my life and i figured out that a pit bull as the strongest bite of all dogs. My buddy had a german shepard that was 2 years old and i had a 6 month old pit he was about 60 to 65 lbs and they were playn for a while and finally they got into it and my pit took it down like it was nothn. u cant compare wolves with pits becuase of different back rounds, one is a hunting and the other is made for fighting!!!

Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/7/2004
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THIS IS THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND. SELF-APPOINTED "EXPERTS" SPECULATING AS TO THE OUTCOME OF AN EVENT THAT THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE. EVERY POST HERE EVIDENCES SOME EMOTIONAL COMMITMENT TO AN UNKNOWN OUTCOME. THE RESULT? CONTRADICTION. OPPOSITE VIEWS, EXPRESSED WITH CONVICTION. NO CONCLUSIVE INFO. ON THE TRUTH.

Answer by McHale
Submitted on 4/8/2004
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Most Likely Know one here has even been around a pure wolf. I have. I had a chance to pet one and even feed one. Let me tell you, as much as I like dogs the difference is like night and day. As cute as a wolf looks on Discovery channel or a magazine they're another story in up close. Most of you on this panel will most likely pee in your pants. Listen to Neal.

Answer by hatesstupidity
Submitted on 4/11/2004
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How about questions like, "Who do you think can bend raw iron easier, Superman or Spiderman?". That is the mentality of this question...

Answer by johntrout
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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You can balk that technology should be able to measure psi on a bite but check the records... the concensus is "there is no accurate way to measure bite psi" you can however measure the size of the holes in the skull where the jaw muscles go and get a general idea, however I haven't seen any documentation of measurements on dogs.

Answer by disgusted
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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do you really think that ANYONE is buying this "BLACKFOOT INDIAN" charade? get a life.

Answer by kowalski
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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New debate: Does a turkey have a higher IQ than the average Pit Bull owner?? Does the average Pit Bull owner even have an IQ??

Answer by mromro
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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How stupid! I think that you all should go out find a "Pit Bull" and a Wolf. Stick your finger in the ass of each and wait. You then come back and tell us from experience (true intelect) not just bull!!! everyone know the american bulldog, the mastiff and bullmastiff have more power than both of these mutts! Anyway, with any of them when they bite your ass you'll think that you have jumped into a bathtub with a hairdryer...

Answer by general
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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dude we aint fukkin talkin about bears and lions u idiot we talking wolves..pitbull low to ground good balance and a powerhouse..wold strong yea but that pitbull is gonna get that throat and its all over...he aint5 even lettingo after the wolf dead.....dragon u talkk about ppl like u top of the line..u lame ass hell for 1 n u dunno wtf u talkin bout for 2 so just stop talkin!pitbull will and can kill a wolf point blank and if u dont think so just stfu..like it or not its thge truth

Answer by me
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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firdragons- i used to live in neillsville wi.a guy i know with two pitbulls lived on granton rd. there was a known pack of 7 wolves in the area he lived.one day he came home to find one of his dogs head split and skin pulled of the skull from center, and his other dog was messed up too.after searching the area they found two dead wolves and one severely injured and killed later.i know for a FACT the police and D.N.R. were notified. both his dogs are both alive and well today.

Answer by proposition
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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THIS WEBSITE DOES ACTUALLY PROVE ONE THING: TALK IS CHEAP! let's settle this; here's an idea for all to consider: the owner of a tosa (any owner)fights his dog against a wolf, owned by someone else, and then, at a later date, the winner of that match fights a pit bull owned by a third party. the winner of each match wins $10,000 from the owner of the defeated animal. let's see if ANYONE is willing to back up all the empty talk with some cash. cruel? perhaps, but not as cruel as listening to all of this endless CRAP!

Answer by youdont know
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Obviously a wolfe has more psi in a bite than any type of domestic dog. And the people that think pits have "locking jaws" thats a myth. Theres nothing different about a pits jaw then say a scottish terrier. People like to think Pits are this invincable dog, which is one of the reasons they have a bad reputation, which sucks; cause anyone who has a pitty knows that they are extremely loyal, and intelligent dogs. Variations in breed also ahve variations

Answer by bobbi
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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Also, whoever is talking about dog fighting should be put to sleep thereselves. that is just wrong. that is one of the reasons that pit bulls are banned in a lot of areas today. How would you like to be made to fight, maybe to your death, for other people enjoyment?

Answer by pit bull owner
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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where's the blackfoot indian? i like the written in accent. "dog die from cougar slash" and whats with all the japanese crap. i wont answer the question cuz i dont know but i wouldnt put my 60 lbs pit against a 180lbs wild wolf. its like mike tyson against oscar dela hoya...

Answer by Curs be Gone
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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At any given period, in any given year, there is always a catchweight pit usually in the 60-65lb range that is "open to the world" This dog represents the ultimate pinnacle of dog fighting capabilities. That is to say, any one, with any dog, wild or domesticated of any breed, from any country in the world, of any size is welcome to bring between $50 to $100K. Never has any other dog breed other than another Pit shown up. End of Story. Wolf/Tosa/Mastiff against such a Pit. Not a chance. You don't think Billionaire Japs(Tosas) and Italians(Neo's), etc wouldn't for mere "bragging" bring such a dog if it existed.

Answer by sage
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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dear simon bar, TERRIFIC! THANK YOU!

Answer by sage reciprocates
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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what is the PSI of the bite of a wolf? 350 1000 1250 1500 2500 3000 answer: all of the above what is the PSI of the bite of a pit bull? 250 500 1200 3000 answer: all of the above NOW WHAT? is the TOSA'S manure more valuable than that of the PIT BULL? can a wolf pull a dog sled better than a dog? ie., better than either the TOSA or the PIT BULL? can a wolf pull a dog sled with its teeth better than a pit bull can in a harness? nile croc vs. tosa kamodo dragon vs. pit bull rino vs. poodle bush vs. kerry ali vs. hulk hillary vs. angie jole KNOCK YOURSELVES OUT, DUDES

Answer by youstupidpeople
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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horay for the fearsome pitwolf shark dogs, the ultimate animal on the earth we should take these monsters and have them attack the ASS who asked this stupid question, which made me waste so much of my study time here at school reading all these stupid post. Who's in favor?

Answer by GOD
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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THIS IS GOD AND ALL OF YOU NEED TO BE SET STRAIGHT. THE WOLF IS THE ULTIMATE CANINE. MUCH LIKE I AM THE ULTIMATE. DOG WAS CREATED FROM ITS PREDECESSOR THE WOLF. THE PIT BULL IS INFERIOR NOW EVERYONE SHUT UP AND WORSHIP ME.

Answer by jasper
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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I'm just curious how any of you got your p.c.s ,because with the exception of "tigercat12" and "nickname" I'm not sure that any of you passed 8th grade, anyways i wont be coming back here to read so you need not waste your time insulting me, but feel free too if it will make your little pee brains feel better. just so you know tigercat12 is accurate on everything, and nickname has some really good points, but its wasted energy on a battle that can't be won. sorry.

Answer by skeptic/sage
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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what is apparent is that a wolf from the wild has never fought a game-bred pit bull in a fighting pit. never. all of this mental and verbal masterbation could be averted by such a contest. but, hey, that would spoil the fun.....wouldn't it

Answer by jus came, jus left
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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WOW, just found this site and read it all.what a waste of time

Answer by can i join?
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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hey what if we took the wolf and breed it specifically for fighting abilities and gameness. then over the coarse of time we could create the ultimate fighting dog. we could use this dog to fulfill all of our sick tendencies of making animals suffer for our own enjoyment and profit.then we could start a site on the web to discuss who would win in a fight. the original wolf or the one we selfishly created to dominate.hmmmmm.what would we call it though?

Answer by can i join
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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yes i know the question was about jaw strength, and not who would win but thats what this has turned into.

Answer by YOU AIN'T RIGHT
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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fire drag why did you leave out the good things about the PIT BULL KILLING THE TOSAS OFF IN TAIWAN?AND ALL THE REST THE TOSA DOG MAG. ED. SAID ABOUT THE PITBULL?YOU EDITED TO SUIT YOUR OWN NEEDS!

Answer by firedragon2
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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dude, HAHA, loser dude HAHA, why doesn't anyone hear my point of views? whats wrong with me?am i really this stupid dude? HAHA loser!!!

Answer by HEY LOOK!
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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yeah click on toughest fighting breed ,mixed match.this firedragon left out everything this tosa editor said good about the pitbull.talk about ajerk!someone please type all of it in?i have got to go to work.thanks

Answer by FUK YOU QUEENIE
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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YOU ARE A JERK THAT SET AROUND AND BLOWS OFF.DRAGON QUEEN.I HAVE FRIENDS WITH PURE WOLF THAT THOUGHT LIKE YOU ALITTLE 55LB. GAMEBRED PIT HAD THE BIG BAD WOLF TRYING TO GET AWAY IN 5 MIN.YOUR POINT OF VEIW IS JUST THAT A WOLF DOES NOT HAVE IT IN HIS MAKE -UP TO FIGHT LIKE A GOOD GAME PIT. I'VE SEEN IT SO FUK YOU JERK ASS.

Answer by YES YOUR STUPID!
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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YEAH I THINK WE SEE YOUR POINT.FIRE BOY YOUR'REFILLED TO THE BRIM WITH CRAP.AND WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET PEOPLE TO BELEAVE YOU.TELL IT LIKE IT IS BLOW HARD!I WOULD LOVE TO KICK YOUR SMART -ASS!