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Archive-name: toys/misc-faq/part2
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The rec.toys.misc FAQ Part 2
Volume 16 June 15, 1996
LEGAL This FAQ may be distributed or referenced in whole or in
DISCLAIMER: part in any forum as long as the Author and Contributors
sections remain with any portion of the FAQ that is
referenced outside of the rec.toys.misc forum, and no
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SECTION 2: FINANCIAL ASPECTS
Q1: I just bought this action figure, how much is it worth?
A1: In more cases than not, its worth what you paid for it. There are
many figures that have their worth inflated due to false demand
created by dealers, but the majority of these figures will drop in
price once it becomes known that they are available in quantity and
the dealer can no longer effectively absorb all available stock.
Q2: What makes an action figure "rare"?
A2: Very rarely is an action figure rare. If a dealer has five or ten
of said action figures, then it is not truly rare, but falsely made
to appear so by dealer hoarding. A rare figure cannot be
determined ahead of time, it is something that collectors and
dealers alike will probably not realize until the figure has come
and gone.
Q3: Should I pay over retail for an action figure that is "rare"
because I fear I may never have another chance to get it?
A3: I understand the anxiousness of wanting a new figure and the
aggravation of not being able to find it. So I will tell you this,
I have never bought a figure for inflated prices that I did not
later see in a retail store for standard price. Patience is a
virtue, and cheaper.
Q4: If I am too impatient too wait until I find a "rare" figure at
retail price, but I do not want to pay above retail price, what can
I do?
A4: You can trade one "rare" figure for another. If you run across a
figure that others are looking for, yet you still cannot find the
figure you are looking for, you can post a trade request and
chances are someone will have what you are looking for and will
want what you have found. The best and fairest of these type
trades are ones where the cost, and not perceived value, are equal
on both sides. And if your attempts at trading the figure are
unsuccessful, you can always return it to the store for a refund,
or sell it at cost so that you are reimbursed and someone can
acquire a figure they are looking for.
Q5: Why does a question about worth or rarity evoke such an unkindly
response from rtm regulars?
A5: I want to emphasize that anyone is welcome on this group to discuss
toys or ask questions, but questions about worth or rarity do not
always bring out the best in the group's regulars (but you'll learn
we have a warped sense of humor, at least). If you do ask a
question about worth or rarity, ask politely and in a well written
manner to do as best you can to distinguish yourself from a dealer
(dealers tend to post abrupt and sometimes illiterate queries), but
take the following points (from rtmer TZ) into account before you
ask a question about value, and you may be able to stay out of the
line of fire:
"(A) Virtually no figure released since 1985 is 'rare.' As someone
else noted, two hundred and fifty MILLION Star Wars
figures were produced, so even these aren't 'rare' (since
so many tens of thousands still survive on mint cards).
Most figures produced after 1990 should be considered, in
the scheme of things 'extremely common.'
(B) Any toy produced after 1993 is probably still available on
the toy shelves in stores, the vast majority in large numbers
(i.e. X-Men, Star Trek, Spawn, etc.). Even the figures most
people label 'rare' are still produced in the hundreds of
thousands: Interim Human Torch & Invisible Woman, and
Phoenix, for example.
(C) Realistically, most toys are worth $5-7, i.e. THE RETAIL
PRICE. With a minimum amount of shopping around, you should be
able to find these toys at TRU, K-Mart, Target, or whatever.
(D) IF YOU WALK INTO A STORE AND SEE TEN COPIES OF A FIGURE
'YOU'RE FRIEND'S BROTHER'S SISTER'S COUSIN' TOLD YOU
MIGHT BE 'WORTH SOMETHING,' YOU SHOULD PROBABLY LEAVE THEM
THERE. They are most likely NOT worth very much more than
retail, unless you have some supply set-up worked out with
your local toy scalper.
(E) Just because you see a dealer selling Professor X figures
for $10 each, or even Killer Croc's for $20, doesn't mean
they're 'WORTH SOMETHING.' (God, I loathe that phrase...).
Likewise, because a price guide lists a relatively common
figure for $15 (like Medieval Spawn repaints), doesn't mean
it's automatically 'WORTH' that much. Since the guides only
track the secondary market (dealer/scalpers), even if only two
M. Spawns were sold at that price last month, the price is
marked at $15. Meantime, 50,000 people probably bought that
damn toy at retail at the local Wal-Mart.
(F) Finally, as with all newsgroups, IT IS EXTREMELY IRRITATING TO
MANY REGULAR READERS AND POSTERS TO HAVE BASIC QUESTIONS ASKED
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. If you want to find out how
much a figure is 'worth,' try this:
(1) If it's pre-1985, look in a price guide, subtract
about 25% from the amount listed, and you have a
'reasonable' range of prices at which it can be sold
(full guide price plus or minus 25%, with lower-end values
probably more realistic.)
(2) If it's post-1985, it's probably 'worth' (maximum) no more
than $15 mint-on-card. If it's post 1990, it's probably
worth no more than $10-15.
(3) If it's post-1993, it's probably can be found at retail,
and is 'worth' that, unless you pay scalper prices, at
which point it is 'worth' $10-15 for a more common
figure, and anywhere from $15-30 for 'hot' figures. The
latter price will probably drop down to $10-15 as soon as
people realize that speculator frenzy rather than an actual
limited supply is driving prices up; this usually takes
about 2-3 months to sink in to the denser and/or more
impatient heads in the hobby.
(4) REMEMBER THE VAST MAJORITY OF TOYS, NOBODY WANTS AND CAN BE
HAD VERY VERY CHEAPLY IF YOU ARE A SMART SHOPPER.
(5) READ THE FAQ."
Q6: Is anyone interested in creating a rec.toys.marketplace
A6: There has been quite a bit of discussion in past and present on
forming such a newsgroup. As of yet, no actions have been taken.
Q7: Are sales/auctions/trades allowed here?
A7: Yes, until a marketplace is created (see Q2.6), they will be
accepted on this newsgroup.
Q8: How is an auction or sale usually conducted on the net?
A8: From the rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting FAQ:
"Well, the best way to do this is to observe several and watch how
they are conducted and then to post on your own. Several
guidelines usually serve to help things run smoothly like:
1. Make clear the currency that you wish to receive
payment and the form in which you would like that money
(Money order, check or credit card).
2. Post accurate descriptions of the pieces you are selling.
This limits problems down the line with miscommunication based
on what was being sold.
3. If you have an idea of a price that you will not sell below
then post a minimum bid for the item in question.
4. Post or [preferably] mail frequent updates so that bidders
know where things stand."
Q9: How should I package and ship toys I'm selling or trading?
A9: From Eric G. Myers (emyers@utmdacc.mda.uth.tmc.edu):
"This is an important question and one that has many legitimate
answers. Just keep in mind that the sender is responsible for
making sure that the item(s) arrive in good condition. Much of
this depends on the toy itself. The first component is a good
sturdy box (Loose figures can sometimes be shipped via padded
envelope without problems). I suggest NOT using the 'Priority
Mail' boxes supplied at the Post Office. These have a tendency to
flatten out during shipping. I suggest finding some type of box
made from at least some corrugated cardboard. For larger items,
boxes from liquor stores work exceptionally well (and they are
free...a definite plus!). Choose a box size that will
accommodate the item without having to bend, fold or otherwise
damage the toy package.
Next you need to consider some type of packing material. The
most frequently used material is obviously newspaper. This
can work effectively if you use some common sense. Since most
action figures (as well as many other toys) have 'bubbles' it is
important not to crush the bubble with your packing material.
You want the packing material to surround the entire item without
crushing it. The goal is to keep it in place and provide extra
cushioning should the package end up underneath a stack of heavy
boxes during shipping. Remember, you are not stuffing a turkey.
Crumpling newspaper works well when used carefully. Rolling
newspaper into 'logs' can also work but takes some practice to
pack an item securely. The next level up from newspaper would be
bubble wrap or styrofoam 'peanuts.' Each of these methods has its
own ups and downs and is really a matter of preference and your own
experiences. Go with what works for you. Bubble wrap can be an
extra expense but does provide good protection if used in
sufficient quantity. Peanuts also provide excellent protection
and are usually quite cheaply available. Remember to be careful
with the use of tape on the inside of the box or with packing
material. Tape that is applied to a toy package may not be
easily removed.
Once you have the item snugly in the box, seal the box with
appropriate packing tape. Regular thin Scotch tape is usually
inefficient unless used in large quantities. Make sure the
address is legible and written preferably in dark, block
letters. Don't forget to include your own return address. If a
mix up occurs with the delivery address, you want the item to come
back to you rather than the dead letter office.
Now you need to pick a delivery service. You have several to
choose from. The standard is the United States Postal Service.
Currently you may send up to two pounds via Two-Day Priority Mail
for $3.00. This is usually sufficient to ship one or two action
figures in a suitable box with appropriate shipping materials.
Occasionally you will have to pay a little more depending on
various factors including the type of item, the size of box and the
type of packing materials used. The next most used service is
UPS. This costs a little bit more but delivery is generally
reliable. In addition, UPS insures all packages for a standard
amount (you may increase this amount for a fee - [see Q2.10]).
Last, but not least, there are many overnight shipping services
(Federal Express, DHL, etc.) that can be used to get a package
somewhere in a hurry. This is probably the least used method for
shipping due to cost involved.
Last but not least, its always nice to e-mail the package
receiver letting him or her know that the package is in the mail.
Also politely ask that they drop you a quick note letting you
know when the figures arrive. With luck and good planning, you
will have made a successful shipment."
Q10: Should I insure packages?
A10: From Eric G. Myers (emyers@utmdacc.mda.uth.tmc.edu):
"There is some controversy regarding this issue. However, if the
buyer wants to pay for insurance on top of all other agreed
terms of your deal, by all means get the insurance requested.
If you are shipping an item of exceptional value (suggestions have
ranged from 25 dollars on up through 250 as minimum values for
obtaining insurance...a happy medium might be 50-100 dollar
value). Here are some of the controversies. First, insurance
will often only cover the ACTUAL value of an item as opposed to
the PERCEIVED value. What that means is that if you are
shipping the latest, currently shipping but rare Spew figure
(let's say Hamburger Head Angela with Specked Panties), it may
only be worth what you paid for it retail. It doesn't matter that
someone sent you $50 for it. For insurance purposes it will
probably be worth retail price. However, there are some
exceptions. If you have an appraisal of value from some
reputable source, you may be able to get more back on an
insurance claim. This is very difficult with
currently available/shipping figures. No matter the rarity, if
its currently available, its probably valued at retail price. Even
with older figures, sometimes an appraisal is not acknowledged by
insurance. If you have questions, contact your local postmaster.
Second controversy: Insurance may only cover the toy inside the
package and NOT the package itself. Many people collect MOMC
[(see Q2.18)]. However, if the card or bubble is damaged in
shipping and the figure is left intact, insurance may not
reimburse you. Again, check with your local postmaster if you
have questions.
In short, insurance is a matter of choice. Know what is covered and
then decide for yourself. Remember, if the package you send to
someone else does not arrive or arrives damaged, netiquette states
that the shipper is responsible for making amends."
Q11: Is there a preferred method of creating subject lines to indicate
for sale posts?
A11: It would be appreciated by all readers of this newsgroup if for
sale posts were posted with the "FS:" abbreviation preceding the
heading. This will benefit both information seekers who are
uninterested in "for sale" posts, and those looking to buy toys who
do not wish to scour the newsgroup to find the posts that interest
them.
Q12: How should I respond to sales/auctions/trades?
A12: Respond by e-mail only, do not post responses. Doing so is highly
improper and discourteous to other usenet users.
Q13: Should I inform this newsgroup if I see an item for sale here
cheaper somewhere else, will I get flamed?
A13: You may get flamed, but as long as you provide the information
politely, you are in the right and are helping your fellow
collectors on this newsgroup. If the seller shows his/her volatile
attitude as a result of this information, you have also let
everyone know that they would be better off taking their business
elsewhere.
Q14: What does the C-1 to C-10 scale mean?
A14: From the rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting FAQ:
"This scale is usually used to grade carded figures and boxed toys.
It was designed to be more specific and quantitative than a scale
based on individual terms. C-10 is absolutely mint, perfect,
free of defects. C-1 is totally beat up. What goes in between is
highly subjective. No matter what anyone tells you, there is
no absolute meaning to this scale, and each collector uses their
own relative grading. It is best to continue to buy from dealers
you trust after you get a feel for their grading scale from some of
their samples.
When buying carded or packaged items, always ask for a
description of all defects in addition to this C-1 to C-10 scale
grading. Some typical defects in carded figures and boxed toys
include (but are not limited to): yellowed bubble, edge wear,
creasing, bends, card is not flat, bubble is crushed, bubble
has ding, bubble has dent (bigger than a ding), tears on card,
bubble separated from card over a small section, card colors are
faded, cellophane ripped, price tag still in place, sticker tear
(from removing price tag), card is punched.
The prices listed in price guides for carded figures are for
C-10 samples. The price drops dramatically (sometimes to about
the same price as a loose mint figure) if there are significant
defects."
Q15: What does MIB mean?
A15: From the rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting FAQ:
"MIB = mint in box. A toy is MIB if the toy inside is mint. MIB
says that the box is, well, a box. MIB says nothing about box
condition, an important aspect of value."
Q16: What does MIMB mean?
A16: MIMB = mint in mint box. A toy is MIMB if the toy inside is mint
and the box that the toy is in is in mint condition. Both the box
and the toy that is inside it must be in mint condition in order to
fall under this category.
Q17: What does MOC mean?
A17: From the rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting FAQ:
"MOC = mint on card. This means the figure is in original
unopened package. If there is any way the figure could be
removed or has been removed, then it's *not* MOC. MOC says
nothing about the condition of the card, which is the most
important factor in the value of carded figures."
Q18: What does MOMC mean?
A18: MOMC = mint on mint card. This means the figure is in an original,
unopened, mint condition package. Both the card and the figure
inside must be in mint condition to fall under this category.
Q19: If something is MIB or MOC, does that mean that the packaging, as
well as the contents, are in mint condition?
A19: No. If an item is being advertised as MIB or MOC, and you are
concerned about the condition of the packaging, you *must* ask.
Any honest seller will tell you the condition, in detail, of
anything you are going to buy, unfortunately most sellers are
dealers, and an "honest dealer" is a contradiction in terms (an
excellent example of oxymoron for English class), so if nothing is
stated specifically, ask.
Q20: What does it mean when a card is punched?
A20: From the rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting FAQ:
"It means the piece of cardboard for the rack hole is missing from
the card."
Q21: What is the best way to store carded figures?
A21: From the rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting FAQ:
"Your best bet to avoid yellowing and other damage is to store
your carded figures in comic bags with a comic backing board.
Place the board behind the card inside the bag and then seal the
bag with tape along the bag (taping the bag to itself). Comic
boxes make convenient storage units for carded figures stored in
these comic bags. Sealing carded figures in comic bags reduces
damage due to light, temperature, humidity, etc."
Q22: Should I let the user's of rtm know if I've been ripped off by
someone dealing on this newsgroup?
A22: If all available means have been taken to ensure that the person
you are dealing with has not made an honest mistake, and it has
been determined, if possible, that the package is not still in
transit or lost by the mail facility, it is then appreciated and
highly appropriate to warn readers that certain persons should not
be dealt with. You could save someone else the aggravation and
loss of money that may result in dealing with this person, but it
is important to first take all measures to ensure that you are not
wrongly ruining a person's reputation by reacting hastily.
Q23: I buy toys that I like, but I'd like to think that 20 years from
now they'll be worth more than I paid. How do I know if I'm buying
toys that'll do that, aside from not letting kids chew on them?
Isn't it worth anything to buy obscure figures that get cancelled
right away?
From TZ (TWZ101@psuvm.psu.edu):
"There are so many toys and figures being made and saved 'mint-in-
the-box' today, that virtually none of them will be worth much in
10-20 years. In fact, using experience as a guide, many will
probably DECLINE in price, as much of the current inflated prices
are due to speculation and new-item hype. Just look at how the
price of a Bane has dropped from $30 to $10-12, with no appreciable
new flood of figures on the market. Or Malebolgia from $50-70 to
$20-25. Or Clown, Overtkill, and Tremor, from $50-60 to
essentially retail price. Remember when Man-Bat was a $25-30 item
a couple of years ago? As Mr. Mint (Al Rosen) of baseball card
fame claims, anything marketed as a collectible usually ISN'T in
the long term.
The other things to factor in here are liquidity and relative
investment potential. Toys, like all collectables, are not
considered liquid investments in that it is relatively difficult to
dispose of them and convert their monetary value into other forms
of investment. If you own stocks, you can sell them at virtually
any time you want with just a phone call; if you want to pull money
out of your savings account in a bank, you can do that on short
notice too. This capital liquity allows you to shift investments
into the most profitable opportunities (those with the highest
percent return, balanced by risk factors) on very short notice.
Liquity is one important key to a good investment strategy.
Collectables, including toys, are terrible investments for three
reasons:
(1) They have very low liquidity. If you want to sell a toy, you
have to (a) find a buyer who wants the toy, and (b) settle upon
a mutually agreeable price. There is no standard pricing
scheme for toys, and you can't just walk into the local bank
and convert them into CDs or mutual fund shares. This involves
a considerable transaction cost in time & effort, reducing your
ability to deploy your money into more suitable investments
should the outlook for your toys' long-term profitability
become bleak. Toys prices also vary widely according to time,
region, and market trend, and it is entirely possible to have a
roomful of toys which simply NO ONE wants to buy from you at
any price. Ever try to get rid of 1980s-era baseball card
sets, especially 1986-89? These are essentially unsaleable
items, whose market value has dropped by 50% in then-year
terms, and even more so when inflation is taken into account,
in less than a decade. And you can't turn them in at the
supermarket for a box of Froot Loops, either! :-)
(2) To a much greater degree than "secure" investments like face-
value redeemable bonds or CDs, toys can depreciate considerably
with physical damage, and, as stated before the transaction
cost involved in speculating on them is considerable. Toy
value is highly dependent on condition, which can change if you
happen to leave them where the kids, dogs, flood water, or heat
damage can get at them, or if you accidentally drop your 12-
back Luke Skywalker, ding the corner of the card, and cut the
value by 20% in about a second and a half. Also, toys are
bulky items requiring considerable storage facilities and
maintenance (after all, it costs money to heat the room where
they're stored, you have to pay property taxes, etc. the larger
your house is, you might need a larger apartment to store them,
etc.) All this severely cuts into their profitability as
investments, as overall investment costs have to be taken into
account, not just sale value of the items in question. And if
you have particularly valuable items, you'll have to insure
them, an additional cost factor that cuts into your investment
return.
(3) Finally, any toy produced after 1985, and perhaps even 1980, is
really "new" (less than 15 years old), and not a proven long-
term secure investment. In essence, ANYONE who buys a toy now
with the expectation that 20 years down the line it will be
worth considerably more than one paid for it (remembering to
take into account inflation and transaction costs) is a
SPECULATOR, and speculation is an inherently risky business
proposition, with potentially high payoffs (had you bought that
case of 1985 POTF figures back in '85 when you had the
chance...) but also potentially high risks (anybody want some
Pac Man memorabilia or Donkey Kong stickers?). Hence, for the
conservative to moderate-risk investor, they must be considered
investments to be avoided.
The other factor to be taken into account is RELATIVE investment
potential. Simply put, relative to the profitability/risk ratios
of other widely available consumer investments like mutual funds,
toys are a bad way to invest your money. The possibility of
hitting a gold mine is far less than ending up with a money pit,
and, in a worst case scenario (no one but the Salvation Army will
take your old toys off your hands) you will have lost all your
money. It ranks up there with derivatives and risky land
speculation in terms of the potential for a financial disaster.
Despite what anyone might tell you, the vast majority of toys, even
"popular" ones, are virtually worthless compared to the money you
COULD have made systematically deploying your financial resources
in other sectors. Most comic stores make their bread and butter on
sales of new books, not because they stumble across copies of
Action #1 in attics every day, or even because Joe Schmoe sold them
a Phoenix figure for $8 that they turn around and sell for $12 or
$20. That's just simply not the way these businesses work."
--Scott Gordon a.k.a. Trekker Extraordinaire--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
See my home page, Coalesence. Your gateway to Scott's Sliders Site,
The Toy Closet, and more.
____________ _-_ ______
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|| \----._________.----/ ======________/----------\
|| / ,' `---' (____/--------\______ |
___||_,--' -._ SCOTT GORDON \ \
/___ 1:1 ||(- scottg10@ix.netcom.com __/____/__
`---._____-' S0628904@dominic.barry.edu {__________{
http://euclid.barry.edu/~gordon
Maintainer of the rec.toys.misc FAQ
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