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Archive-name: cultures/irish-faq/part08
Last-modified: 6 Jul 99
Posting-Frequency: monthly
URL: http://www.enteract.com/~cpm/irish-faq/
Part eight of ten.
Frequently Asked Questions on soc.culture.irish with answers.
Send corrections, suggestions, additions, and other feedback
to <irish-faq@pobox.com>
Miscellaneous
1) I'm considering looking for a job in Ireland. Any hints?
2) Where can I get information about moving back to Ireland?
3) How do I apply for Irish citizenship?
4) Do I qualify for Irish citizenship if my great-grandparent was Irish?
5) Could I not get citizenship by first getting a parent to get it?
6) Which Irish embassy or consulate should I contact?
7) Is dual citizenship allowed (for example if I'm a U.S. citizen)?
8) I'm an American student: can I get a working visa?
9) I'm looking for XXX from Ireland: how can I reach him/her?
10) What are black Irish and shanty Irish?
11) What are Scotch-Irish?
12) What are black protestants?
13) What are travellers?
14) How do I pronounce "celt" and "celtic"?
15) What's the difference between clover and shamrock?
16) Does anybody know the lyrics for [Danny Boy, Galway Bay, etc.] ?
17) Where can I order Irish turf in the U.S.?
18) What are Claddagh rings?
Subject: 1) I'm considering looking for a job in Ireland. Any hints?
The employment market in the Republic of Ireland has improved
markedly in the last couple of years. There are good jobs
to be had for people with appropriate experience, particularly
sales/marketing, customer support and technical/engineering.
People with fluency in one or more European languages combined
with other skills are particularly in demand.
The best places to look are the Irish Independent on Thursdays
(business "pink pages") or Friday's Irish Times (in the Business
Supplement). If you're interested in Dublin the Evening Herald
is also worth a look.
There are a number of websites of interest, for example
http://www.ireland.com/recruit/
http://www.emigrant.ie/pro/
http://www.infolive.ie/jobfinder/
http://www.skillsgroup.ie/
http://www.corporateskills.com/
http://www.exp.ie/
http://www.chase.ie/
There's also a jobs fair every Christmas called the `High
Skills Pool', which has taken place in Dublin for the past couple
of years. They are partly funded by the IDA and will give you
information on companies in Ireland for free if you have any
queries. You can also get an information pack on moving back to
Ireland, e.g. what the tax rate is, etc.
Subject: 2) Where can I get information about moving back to Ireland?
The "Irish Emigrant" newsletter has a fairly comprehensive
guide on the web at
http://www.emigrant.ie/living/
called "Living and Working in Ireland".
Another guide can be found at http://www.amireland.com/ireland/
(Unfortunately you don't get to see everything without
paying first.)
The Sunday Business Post has some useful information at
http://www.sbpost.ie/recruitment/salary-surveys/articles/article2.html
Subject: 3) How do I apply for Irish citizenship?
Anyone who has a parent or grandparent born in the Republic
of Ireland or Northern Ireland can get an Irish passport
by applying to your local embassy or consulate. If you are
considering applying for Irish citizenship, you should in any
case contact the nearest Irish diplomatic mission to make sure
you get accurate and up-to-date information.
You need to have the following :-
i) For the Irish grandparent, birth certificate and marriage
license to whoever was the other grandparent of the applicant.
ii) For the parent (child of the Irish grandparent) birth
certificate and marriage license to your other parent.
iii) For you: birth certificate
ALL of the above documents must have complete details that prove
the connection. In other words, the birth certificate must show
the names, dates of birth and places of birth of both your
parents, so that they can be conclusively identified to be the
same person mentioned on the marriage license and their own
birth certificate. Irish documents seem to include these
details automatically, but in the U.S., you may have to contact
the Vital Statistics Bureau in the state of birth to get an
official copy containing more details.
ALL of the documents must be official, i.e., must bear the
raised stamp of the issuing agency.
You have to fill out forms, attach photographs and have it all
witnessed, not by a notary public, but by a "clergyman, high
school principal, lawyer or bank manager".
It costs about $160 if you are claiming through your parent(s),
in addition to the cost of getting copies of the documents. If
you are claiming citizenship based on your grandparent(s) then
you need to pay $270 for Registration of Foreign Birth.
There's about a one-year backlog in processing applications.
Subject: 4) Do I qualify for Irish citizenship if my great-grandparent was Irish?
No, a great-grandparent is too distant a relation for you
to qualify. The rules are specified in the Irish
Nationality and Citizenship Act, which someone has been kind
enough to put on the web at
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1834/eire.txt
The Act is a bit confusing and not necessarily complete.
Check with an Irish embassy or consulate [see below] or
a lawyer [there are several advertising their services on
the web] for the definitive word on this.
Subject: 5) Could I not get citizenship by first getting a parent to get it?
No, you can't get citizenship from a great-grandparent
like that. You get citizenship from your parent at the
time of your birth (see the Nationality and Citizenship
Act,section six, subsection two). If your parent was
not an Irish citizen when you were born, you cannot get
citizenship from him or her later. (Obviously, this doesn't
stop you from getting citizenship if you are entitled to it
for some other reason.) I emphasize: none of what is said
here about citizenship is legal advice. I could be wrong.
Read the Act yourself, but if you want legal advice for
your situation you will most likely have to pay a lawyer.
Subject: 6) Which Irish embassy or consulate should I contact?
If you're in the States, you can choose one of the following.
Embassy of Ireland
2234 Massachusetts Ave.
Washington D.C. 20008
tel. (202) 462-3939
fax. (202) 232-5993
Consulate General of Ireland
Ireland House
345 Park Avenue - 17th Floor
New York, NY 10154-0037
tel. (212) 319-2555
fax. (202) 980-9475
Consulate General of Ireland
535 Boylston Street
Boston MA 02116
tel. (617) 267-9330
fax. (617) 267-6375
Consulate General of Ireland
400 North Michigan Ave.
Chicago, IL 60611
tel. (312) 337-1868
fax. (312) 337-1954
Consulate General of Ireland
44 Montgomery Street, Suite 3830
San Francisco CA 94104
tel. (415) 392-4214
fax. (415) 392-0885
If you live elsewhere or you want more detailed information,
you could try looking at
http://www.irlgov.ie/iveagh/embassies/default.asp
Subject: 7) Is dual citizenship allowed (for example if I'm a U.S. citizen)?
In general there's no problem. If you are a U.S. citizen
you might find Rich Wales' Dual Citizenship FAQ
at http://www.webcom.com/richw/dualcit/ useful.
Subject: 8) I'm an American student: can I get a working visa?
It is possible to get a work visa for 6 months. But be warned:
although the market has improved during the last couple of years,
jobs are usually not as easy to come by as in the States!
Ireland & Britain operate exchange schemes whereby Irish &
British students can work in the USA for up to six months on
J-1 visas and USA students can work in Ireland or Britain.
Not surprisingly, service industries are probably your best
bet. There is a fair demand for waiters/waitresses during
the summer tourist season. Note that pubs usually require
previous experience before they'll hire you to tend the bar.
There are other jobs to be had but they are in niche areas.
Whatever you look for, the best hunting strategy is often to
just tramp from door to door.
Good preparation and timing are essential. In particular, if you
need accommodation, it's often best to look for it _after_ Irish
students end their exams (which may be several weeks after you
do). Contact an Irish consulate or BUNAC for more information.
Subject: 9) I'm looking for XXX from Ireland: how can I reach him/her?
There are better approaches to finding someone than asking
on soc.culture.irish. If you have access to the Web,
you might look at http://people.yahoo.com/ or if you think
the person you're looking has posted messages to Usenet,
you could try looking at http://www.deja.com/ or
you could also try using a search engine such as AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com/).
You are not likely to be able to find someone using the Net if
they don't use the Net themselves. The chances that someone
reading soc.culture.irish knows them is vanishingly small.
You're more likely to find them the "old-fashioned" way,
by asking family, friends or relatives.
Subject: 10) What are black Irish and shanty Irish?
This question has come up fairly regularly on the newsgroup
but has never been resolved definitively. Neither "black"
or "shanty" are used much in Ireland. They seem to be mainly
used in America.
"Shanty Irish" was used to describe the poorest of the poor
Irish immigrants, the kind who ended up in shanty town (the
origin of the word "shanty" is not known, but it might come
from the Irish "sean tí", meaning "old house"). Today "shanty"
in the States is a derogatory term for people who in Ireland
might be known as culchies but the people so described need
not necessarily be of Irish descent.
"Lace curtain Irish" could be as poor as the Shanty Irish but
they had notions of being more respectable. They were called
that because they would put up lace curtains for appearances
sake, even in a shanty town. Thus the term is far from being
a complement.
{ Thanks for clarification to Neil Cosgrove. }
"Black Irish" is often taken to mean Irish people with dark
hair and eyes. One romantic story is that they are the
descendants of shipwrecked sailors of the Spanish Armada.
Unfortunately for the story, it is very unlikely that enough of
the sailors survived for their genes to be in the population
visible today. A variation on this theme says they are
descended from Spanish Moors who traded with people on the
west coast of Ireland. Another explanation is that it's
common in Irish to give people nicknames based on their hair,
such as Seamus dubh and "black Irish" is just a carryover of
this into English. Some people say that the "black Irish"
were the original inhabitants of the island and all the rest
were just blow-ins.
One other interpretation is that "black Irish" refers to the
descendants of Irish slaves taken to the Caribbean island of
Montserrat during Cromwell's time. The descendants of these
slaves and black slaves from Africa live there to this day.
The surprising thing is that they still speak with an Irish
accent!
Subject: 11) What are Scotch-Irish?
A majority of Irish people who emigrated to America in the 18th
century were Protestants from Ulster. Most of these, in turn,
were descendants of settlers brought in from Scotland from
the 17th century during the so called plantation of Ulster.
(Being Protestant, it was believed they would prove more loyal
than the troublesome Irish.) "Scotch-Irish" usually refers to
those emigrants or to their descendants. (Note that most Scots
do not like being called "Scotch" nowadays, because this word
is usually used for whisky from Scotland.)
Subject: 12) What are black protestants?
Black protestants are protestants who take their religion
seriously. "Black" in this context means intense or
dedicated. Answering this question, Gerard wrote: "not
simply protestant, but a dedicated protestant, not just
talking the talk but also walking the walk".
There is some speculation as to where this expression comes
from. One plausible source is the Irish word dubh (pr. dove,
meaning black) which is commonly used as an intensifier.
It might also have something to do with the Royal Black
Institution, a body for Ulster protestants similar to
the Orange order.
Subject: 13) What are travellers?
Travellers (also known as itinerants and tinkers, though
these names can be seen as offensive) are people in Ireland
who have traditionally lived "on the road", typically in
caravans moving from place to place. In many ways they
can be seen as a separate ethnic group and they are often
subject to ethnic prejudices and discrimination.
There's a FAQ on travellers at
http://ireland.iol.ie/~pavee/faq.htm
Subject: 14) How do I pronounce "celt" and "celtic"?
The "c" at the start of "celtic" can be pronounced soft, like
an "s", or hard, like a "k". The most common convention is to
always pronounce it with a hard "c" ("keltic") except when using
it as a proper noun (e.g. Celtic Football Club, Boston Celtics,
The Anglo-Celt newspaper).
In Irish, "c" is always pronounced hard, like the letter "k"
which is never used in Irish words. The Greeks were the
first to write about the Celts, using the word "Keltoi",
which suggests that the hard sound is also historically
accurate.
{ Thanks for clarification to Michael Ruddy. }
Subject: 15) What's the difference between clover and shamrock?
Short answer: shamrock is smaller than clover.
Long answer: shamrock and clover are both used to refer to
species of trefoil (genus Trifolium, from the Latin meaning
"having three leaves"). Clover is used for large species and
shamrock for small species. Shamrock, like clover, is common
in Europe, not just in Ireland. [Answer blatantly cogged
from Des Higgins, resident newsgroup expert on the subject.]
Subject: 16) Does anybody know the lyrics for [Danny Boy, Galway Bay, etc.] ?
There's a list of song lyrics at
http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/irish.html
For people looking for Dubliner lyrics
http://www2.bath.ac.uk/~exxdgdc/music/dubliner.html
Irish Folk Songs For Singing On St. Patrick's Day or Whenever
http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~declaris/ballads/songs.html
If it's not on any of the above sites, try asking on
rec.music.celtic. Read the FAQ first, in case the answer
is there (available at http://www.collins-peak.co.uk/rmc/).
Subject: 17) Where can I order Irish turf in the U.S.?
Bord na Móna are offering turf (baled briquettes and wicker
baskets of sod turf) for delivery anywhere in the 48 contiguous
states. They can be contacted by
phone (toll-free): 1-888 843 0924
or e-mail: turf@bnm.ie
To order, you need your full address (including ZIP code).
Currently, credit cards are the only form of payment accepted.
Subject: 18) What are Claddagh rings?
There are many stories about the Claddagh ring. Claddagh
itself refers to a small fishing village just near Galway city.
The Claddagh ring supposedly originated in this area. The ring
has a design of a heart being encircled by a pair of hands with
a crown above the heart.
Some more information can be found at
http://www.enteract.com/~cpm/irish-faq/claddagh/claddagh.html
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End of Irish FAQ part 8
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Regards
Ivan Brookes